Talk:Sathya Sai Baba

The word/term Philantrophy ?

Using the word philanthrophist when describing spiritual-teachers, saints or similar, is unprecedented. The word has hitherto been used frequently when the talk was about succesfull businesspeople,( people of great monetary wealth, earned or inherited )- supporting a worthy cause ( sometimes many a good cause ) I therefore suggest some editing. Peace — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:AA7:4006:7DF:6066:B2D1:A8E3:C392 (talk) 21:17, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Sathya Sai Baba Wiki Page. Why the hate?

The term and phrasing in opening paragraphs of bio read “his acts were based on sleight of hand though his devotees believed them signs of his divinity”

I written the admin and advised this inaccurate assessment, furthermore it’s reference in links [14-16] of his charity and legacy.

This is wrong and I encourage all devotees of Sathya Sai Baba to take hard look at how that sentence appears and disregards someone who did so much for so many.

Thank you love you all.

Sainath SKSathishchandar (talk) 19:31, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

@SKSathishchandar: The sentence follows the description of his "purported materialisations of vibhuti (holy ash) and other small objects such as rings, necklaces, and watches". In that context, it is appropriate to describe the criticisms and/or skeptics' assessment of his actions. —C.Fred (talk) 20:07, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

@c.fred you are correct, the sentence follows a description. The description begins with “purported” - open ended. The sentence, in context is opinionated. The following sentence is finite, “His acts were based on”. I understand your view however grammatically you opinion and facts do not compliment each other in context of ones character. Actions are based on character, “his acts were based on…” is defining, not open to speculation or opinion. It is finite. And the preceding sentence ends with …controversy.” So if the train of thought is giving light to both view points, the following sentence shouldn’t be of just one. SKSathishchandar (talk) 00:16, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Correction

“however grammatically opinion and fact”

• typo*

• • “however grammatically you opinion and fact”** SKSathishchandar (talk) 00:19, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

• Asking the wider group: Do we need a qualifier on the follow-on sentence? Something along the lines of "His acts were determined by several researchers to be sleight of hand"? The prose of the article backs up that there were several investigations into his acts. —C.Fred (talk) 01:35, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
• @SKSathishchandar: There is no hate in the article, but we want to be careful not to give equal weight to points of view that contradict accepted scientific facts. Resurrections and manifestations of objects and holy ash are phenomena that are physically impossible, according to mainstream science. We do acknowledge that there is a group of people who do not agree with the mainstream view, but we can't give undue weight to a fringe point of view. @C.Fred: We might add something in the intro about the investigations, but I don't think the "His acts were based on sleight of hand" phrasing should be weakened. --bonadea contributions talk 09:41, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

That being said, "sleight of hand" is maybe not the best term – it applies to manifestations (and the source Quack 2012 discusses this), but it is a little weird to say that a purported resurrection is done by sleight of hand. There is another source, Winged Faith (Srinivas 2010) which talks a bit about his (alleged) miraculous healings and resurrections. I can't do any in-depth reading of that right now, but it might be a useful source as well. --bonadea contributions talk 09:55, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Changes requested by Venkatant

All the requests below were added in a single edit with multiple edit request templates. I added sub-headings and copied the signature + timestamp to each request, for clarity. --bonadea contributions talk 15:54, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Page title

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Specific text to be added or removed: Page Title to be modified to 'Sri Sathya Sai Baba' Reason for the change: The right name is 'Sri Sathya Sai Baba' and not the earlier one. When ever Baba wrote and signed, it was always 'Sri Sathya Sai Baba'. References supporting change: Following evidences show the Signature of 'Sri Sathya Sai Baba' and hence the name needs to be corrected to 'Sri Sathya Sai Baba' across the page. a) b) c) Venkatant (talk) 13:19, 17 September 2021 (UTC) References  Not done none of those sources meets the requirements for reliable sources. Honorifics such as "sri" are normally not used in the text of a Wikipedia article. More information MOS:HONORIFIC. --bonadea contributions talk 12:51, 18 September 2021 (UTC) Dear Bonadea, 'Sri' prefix here is not Honorific but the name. In the case of Sri Sathya Sai Baba, 'Bhagawan' would be Honorific and not 'Sri'. Sri is commonly used in Indian names and in wikipedia, this is allowed. Some examples are a) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_M b) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Aurobindo As The Hindu editorials and published news is considered as 'verifiable' by Wikipedia, please do refer to the links below to justify using 'Sri Sathya Sai Baba' and sincerely request you to relook at the correction a) https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/Sathya-Sai-Baba-passes-away/article13663703.ece - This reliable source starts with 'Iconic spiritual leader Sri Sathya Sai Baba passed away at Puttaparthi' b) https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/andhra-pradesh/Sathya-Sai-Baba-shows-signs-of-improvement/article14675569.ece - This reliable source per wikipedia, starts with 'Sri Sathya Sai Baba, who is undergoing treatment for multi-organ dysfunction' c) The editorial of a reliable wikipedia source https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/editorial/Sai-Baba-his-life-and-legacy/article14808978.ece refers to 'In a country that has never been short of self-proclaimed godmen peddling spiritual succour with commercial motive, Sri Sathya Sai Baba, who passed away at the age of 84 at Puttaparthi in Andhra Pradesh on April 24, 2011, stands out as a rare phenomenon' d) Please also refer to https://www.indiatvnews.com/news/india/freezer-box-for-sathya-sai-baba-was-ordered-on-april-4-7718.html where the article indicates 'Puttaparthi, Apr 28: The freezer box in which the mortal remains of Sri Sathya Sai Baba was kept for public view was reportedly ordered on April 4, the Times of India reported' Venkatant (talk) 22:23, 18 September 2021 (UTC) Please can the edit be looked into given further links and research information provided 'Sri' prefix here is not Honorific but the name. In the case of Sri Sathya Sai Baba, 'Bhagawan' would be Honorific and not 'Sri'. Sri is commonly used in Indian names and in wikipedia, this is allowed. Some examples are a) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_M b) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Aurobindo As The Hindu editorials and published news is considered as 'verifiable' by Wikipedia, please do refer to the links below to justify using 'Sri Sathya Sai Baba' and sincerely request you to relook at the correction a) https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/Sathya-Sai-Baba-passes-away/article13663703.ece - This reliable source starts with 'Iconic spiritual leader Sri Sathya Sai Baba passed away at Puttaparthi' b) https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/andhra-pradesh/Sathya-Sai-Baba-shows-signs-of-improvement/article14675569.ece - This reliable source per wikipedia, starts with 'Sri Sathya Sai Baba, who is undergoing treatment for multi-organ dysfunction' c) The editorial of a reliable wikipedia source https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/editorial/Sai-Baba-his-life-and-legacy/article14808978.ece refers to 'In a country that has never been short of self-proclaimed godmen peddling spiritual succour with commercial motive, Sri Sathya Sai Baba, who passed away at the age of 84 at Puttaparthi in Andhra Pradesh on April 24, 2011, stands out as a rare phenomenon' d) Please also refer to https://www.indiatvnews.com/news/india/freezer-box-for-sathya-sai-baba-was-ordered-on-april-4-7718.html where the article indicates 'Puttaparthi, Apr 28: The freezer box in which the mortal remains of Sri Sathya Sai Baba was kept for public view was reportedly ordered on April 4, the Times of India reported' Venkatant (talk) 08:59, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Add "Sri" throughout

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Specific text to be added or removed: All instances of 'Sathya Sai Baba' to be corrected to 'Sri Sathya Sai Baba' across the Page Reason for the change: The right name is 'Sri Sathya Sai Baba' and not the earlier one. When ever Baba wrote and signed, it was always 'Sri Sathya Sai Baba'. References supporting change: Following evidences show the Signature of 'Sri Sathya Sai Baba' and hence the name needs to be corrected to 'Sri Sathya Sai Baba' across the page. a) b) c) Venkatant (talk) 13:19, 17 September 2021 (UTC) References  Not done See previous section. --bonadea contributions talk 12:51, 18 September 2021 (UTC) Dear Bonadea, 'Sri' prefix here is not Honorific but the name. In the case of Sri Sathya Sai Baba, 'Bhagawan' would be Honorific and not 'Sri'. Sri is commonly used in Indian names and in wikipedia, this is allowed. Some examples are a) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_M b) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Aurobindo Please see 'verifiable sources' provided above for 'Title change request'. In the same wikipedia page, please see PM Atal Bihari Vajpayee's reply to state that Honorofic would be Bhagawan in this case and not the word 'Sri'. Additional links added for your perusal a) The Financial Times article 'https://www.ft.com/content/2e004046-6e87-11e0-a13b-00144feabdc0' refers to 'Sri Sathya Sai Baba' in ' Sri Sathya Sai Baba, the spiritual leader whose devotees included some of India’s top business, political and public figures, and who created India’s richest religious trust, has died of multiple organ failure, nine years before he prophesied he would.' b) Forbes article https://www.forbes.com/global/2001/1210/064.html?sh=775083434c02 about Golden Oldie refers to 'Sri Sathya Sai Baba' as 'It's a gamble not many investors would make, but Sinclair has always stood apart from the crowd. On the walls of his office hang six photographs of Shri Sathya Sai Baba, a guru in India whom Sinclair visits several times a year. ' c) The guardian https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/apr/24/sri-sathya-sai-baba-dies refers to 'The death of Sri Sathya Sai Baba at the age of 85 from heart and breathing problems' d) In the same wikipedia page, the response of then PM Atal bihari vajpayee refers to 'We are deeply pained and anguished by the wild, reckless and concocted allegations made by certain vested interests and people against Bhagwan Sri Sathya Sai Baba. We would normally expect that responsible media would ascertain the true facts before printing such a calumny – especially when the person is revered globally as an embodiment of love and selfless service to humanity.[132][133] ' Venkatant (talk) 22:48, 18 September 2021 (UTC) Please can the requested edit be re-looked based on 'Sri' prefix here is not Honorific but the name. In the case of Sri Sathya Sai Baba, 'Bhagawan' would be Honorific and not 'Sri'. Sri is commonly used in Indian names and in wikipedia, this is allowed. Some examples are a) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_M b) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Aurobindo As The Hindu editorials and published news is considered as 'verifiable' by Wikipedia, please do refer to the links below to justify using 'Sri Sathya Sai Baba' and sincerely request you to relook at the correction a) https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/Sathya-Sai-Baba-passes-away/article13663703.ece - This reliable source starts with 'Iconic spiritual leader Sri Sathya Sai Baba passed away at Puttaparthi' b) https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/andhra-pradesh/Sathya-Sai-Baba-shows-signs-of-improvement/article14675569.ece - This reliable source per wikipedia, starts with 'Sri Sathya Sai Baba, who is undergoing treatment for multi-organ dysfunction' c) The editorial of a reliable wikipedia source https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/editorial/Sai-Baba-his-life-and-legacy/article14808978.ece refers to 'In a country that has never been short of self-proclaimed godmen peddling spiritual succour with commercial motive, Sri Sathya Sai Baba, who passed away at the age of 84 at Puttaparthi in Andhra Pradesh on April 24, 2011, stands out as a rare phenomenon' d) Please also refer to https://www.indiatvnews.com/news/india/freezer-box-for-sathya-sai-baba-was-ordered-on-april-4-7718.html where the article indicates 'Puttaparthi, Apr 28: The freezer box in which the mortal remains of Sri Sathya Sai Baba was kept for public view was reportedly ordered on April 4, the Times of India reported' Also Please see 'verifiable sources' provided above for 'Title change request'. In the same wikipedia page, please see PM Atal Bihari Vajpayee's reply to state that Honorofic would be Bhagawan in this case and not the word 'Sri'. Additional links added for your perusal a) The Financial Times article 'https://www.ft.com/content/2e004046-6e87-11e0-a13b-00144feabdc0' refers to 'Sri Sathya Sai Baba' in ' Sri Sathya Sai Baba, the spiritual leader whose devotees included some of India’s top business, political and public figures, and who created India’s richest religious trust, has died of multiple organ failure, nine years before he prophesied he would.' b) Forbes article https://www.forbes.com/global/2001/1210/064.html?sh=775083434c02 about Golden Oldie refers to 'Sri Sathya Sai Baba' as 'It's a gamble not many investors would make, but Sinclair has always stood apart from the crowd. On the walls of his office hang six photographs of Shri Sathya Sai Baba, a guru in India whom Sinclair visits several times a year. ' c) The guardian https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/apr/24/sri-sathya-sai-baba-dies refers to 'The death of Sri Sathya Sai Baba at the age of 85 from heart and breathing problems' d) In the same wikipedia page, the response of then PM Atal bihari vajpayee refers to 'We are deeply pained and anguished by the wild, reckless and concocted allegations made by certain vested interests and people against Bhagwan Sri Sathya Sai Baba. We would normally expect that responsible media would ascertain the true facts before printing such a calumny – especially when the person is revered globally as an embodiment of love and selfless service to humanity.[132][133] Venkatant (talk) 09:01, 9 October 2021 (UTC) Please do not post the same text and links multiple times in different sections. It is true that several newspapers, in India and internationally, used Sri. However, there is nothing to indicate that it is in fact "so commonly attached to [his] name that the name is rarely found in English reliable sources without it" (that's a quote from MOS:HONORIFIC). Sri is used with a lot of names, but is almost never part of the title of the article about them, nor is it used in Wikipedia's voice, with a few exceptions where no sources use the name without Sri. That a direct quote from the Prime Minister includes the title is a different matter. --bonadea contributions talk 11:20, 9 October 2021 (UTC) As mentioned it is His name 'Sri Sathya Sai Baba'. Unclear on why this will be contested based on the reliable sources shared. Also, Sri Aurobindo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Aurobindo) reference is ignored where Sri is mentioned in the name. All the organisations established by Baba are also 'Sri Sathya Sai'. It is common sense to understand that the name is Sri Sathya Sai Baba and not something else. Some even refer to Baba as Puttaparthi Sai Baba, we are not asking for that change. As mentioned, honorific in this instance is Bhagawan and not Sri. If English language 'Sri' is not attributed, so is the word 'Sathya' which perhaps would have got added later. The argument for a name does not hold good when a name is mentioned just like in the case of Sri Aurobindo Venkatant (talk) 09:33, 11 October 2021 (UTC)  Not done Answered above. --bonadea contributions talk 10:37, 11 October 2021 (UTC) Sorry, the answers provided are not right and lack merit Venkatant (talk) 16:38, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Remove claim in lead sentence

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Specific text to be added or removed: Replace Sathya Sai Baba (born Ratnakaram Sathyanarayana Raju; 23 November 1926 - 24 April 2011)[1] was an Indian guru and philanthropist.[2][3] At the age of fourteen he claimed that he was the reincarnation of Shirdi Sai Baba,[4][5] and left his home in order to serve the society and be an example to his followers.[6][7] With the following Sri Sathya Sai Baba (born Ratnakaram Sathyanarayana Raju; 23 November 1926 - 24 April 2011) was an Indian Spiritual Guru and Philanthropist Reason for the change: Following are the contentions a) The reference 'https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13153536' used as [1] lacks merit and is highly inaccurate. b) http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/this_world/3813469.stm used as [8] The statement ' It is said that his mother claimed her son came into the world by virgin birth, just like Jesus Christ, another messiah who Sai Baba often identified himself with.' In the article is false and no where claimed by Sri Sathya Sai Baba. Various such falsified information without adequate research is in the article. The website is biased and lacks truth, the factual details mentioned in external site https://media.radiosai.org/journals/Vol_04/01JUL06/collapse-of-calumny.htm need to be considered. Hence we request to remove such prejudicial and inaccurate references The whole case of 1993 and other allegations were refuted in the Journal with evidences on https://media.radiosai.org/journals/Vol_04/01JUL06/collapse-of-calumny.htm . To be truthful and avid biased journalism, we request the text be corrected and BBC links to be removed in lieu of the reference given in the light of these artifacts. References supporting change: External URLS, References a) http://www.saibabaofindia.com/major_update_alaya_rahm_dismisse_lawsuit.htm b) https://media.radiosai.org/journals/Vol_04/01JUL06/collapse-of-calumny.htm c) https://g.co/kgs/RZ46Uk Venkatant (talk) 13:19, 17 September 2021 (UTC) References  Not done There are two or three requests here. One is to remove the sentence "At the age of fourteen he claimed that he was the reincarnation of Shirdi Sai Baba, and left his home in order to serve the society and be an example to his followers." This sentence is well-sourced, both in the lede and the article body. I do not see that there are any sources that say that he did not claim to be Shirdi Sai Baba's reincarnation, or that he did not leave home to serve society. The second part of the request is to do with sources. There are no policy based reasons to remove the BBC sources. The BBC is considered a generally reliable source, and the two sources are not used to support any controversial text in the article. It would also not in line with Wikipedia policy to use the three sources proposed here. The radiosai.org source ([1]) and the saibabaofindia.com source ([2]) are not independent and do not meet Wikipedia's requirement for reliable sources. That also applies to the book, as already discussed in Talk:Sathya Sai Baba#Additional reference. (Please do not give a Google search results page as a source – Google search is not a source, just like Google Books is not a source.) --bonadea contributions talk 10:40, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Change "The Sathya Sai Organisation" to "Sri Sathya Sai Central Trust" (3 requests)

• Specific text to be added or removed: Replace 'The Sathya Sai Organisation, founded by Sathya Sai Baba ' with 'Sri Sathya Sai Central Trust founded by Sathya Sai Baba

'

• Reason for the change: There was not and is no such entity, by the name of Sathya Sai Organisation. The right name of the entity founded by Sri Sathya Sai Baba is 'Sri Sathya Sai Central Trust'
• References supporting change: https://www.srisathyasai.org/pages

Venkatant (talk) 13:19, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

References

• Specific text to be added or removed: Edit the Infobox Hindu Leader segment 'Founder of Sathya Sai Organisation' to 'Founder of Sri Sathya Sai Central Trust'
• Reason for the change: There was not and is no such entity, by the name of Sathya Sai Organisation. The right name of the entity founded by Sri Sathya Sai Baba is 'Sri Sathya Sai Central Trust'
• References supporting change: https://www.srisathyasai.org/pages

Venkatant (talk) 13:19, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

References

• Specific text to be added or removed: Correct the External Links

- Remove International Sai Organization - Add Sri Sathya Sai Central Trust (URL : https://www.srisathyasai.org/pages) - Add Sri Sathya Sai Media Centre (URL : https://www.sssmediacentre.org/# ) - Add Sri Sathya Sai Global Council (URL : https://www.sssglobalcouncil.org/ )

• Reason for the change: Sri Sathya Sai Central Trust and Sri Sathya Sai Media Centre are the two external links established by Sri Sathya Sai Baba. Kindly include these. There is no International Sai Organization and hence request the same to be replaced with Sri Sathya Sai Global Council
• References supporting change: https://www.sssmediacentre.org/# , https://www.srisathyasai.org/pages and https://www.sssglobalcouncil.org/

URL of Sri Sathya Sai Central Trust :https://www.srisathyasai.org/pages/ and external references to substantiate that 'Sri Sathya Sai Central Trust' should be the right organisation a) Venkatant (talk) 13:19, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

References

Dear Bonadea, Saw comments for all sections but this. Hopefully, not missed out

Venkatant (talk) 23:42, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Adding further references a) https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/andhra-pradesh/sathya-sai-trust-signs-mou-with-ncert-ciet/article32999159.ece - two statements to show 'Sri Sathya Sai Central Trust' is the right name

- Sri Sathya Sai Baba had launched the SSSVV programme on November 23, 2010, to meet the growing need for holistic education for all, a release from the Trust said - On the occasion of the Sri Sathya Sai Vidya Vahini (SSSVV) programme completing a decade, the Sri Sathya Sai Central Trust signed a memorandum of understanding with the NCERT-CIET on Sunday to share its expertise with all government school teachers in the country.

b) https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/andhra-pradesh/un-body-confers-special-status-on-sri-sathya-sai-central-trust/article32950161.ece - two statements to show 'Sri Sathya Sai Central Trust' is the right name

- The United Nations Economic and Social Council (ECOSOC) conferred ‘Special Consultative Status’ on the Puttaparthi-based Sri Sathya Sai Central Trust. - “This also gives us a great opportunity to expand the service activities of Sri Sathya Sai Seva Organization all over the world and reach the people who are in need so that we spread the love of Sai Baba”,

c)https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/andhra-pradesh/sri-sathya-sai-global-council-to-come-up-next-year/article33164142.ece - information regarding Sri Sathya Sai Global Council and Sri Sathya Sai Media Centre

Sri Sathya Sai Central Trust (SSSCT) on Monday announced setting up of Sri Sathya Sai Global Council to monitor and guide the activities of Sri Sathya Sai Seva Organisations, both in India and other countries. The new body would function from Guru Purnima in 2021, said trustee S.S. Naganand, while presenting the report of Sri Sathya Sai Central Trust for the year ending March 2020, during the 95th birth anniversary celebrations of Sathya Sai Baba, held at Prashanthi Nilayam in Puttaparthi.

Mr. Naganand listed various social, medical and educational activities being taken up. He said a new multimedia museum in Brindavan, Whitefield (Bengaluru), and a new convention centre at Prasanthi Nilayam were nearing completion, along with Sri Sathya Sai Media Centre.

d) https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/telangana/satya-sai-trust-expanding-activities/article7836334.ece 'the trust was formed in 1972 by Sri Sathya Sai Baba' Venkatant (talk) 07:22, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

@Venkatant: This request is still open. Somebody will get to it at some point. --bonadea contributions talk 07:28, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Please can the requested changes be re-looked based on links provided. The wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sathya_Sai_Baba_movement, Organisations also refers to Sri Sathya Sai Central Trust to prove the point. Venkatant (talk) 08:57, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

@Venkatant and Bonadea: I'll take care of this request. The current version isn't sourced with high quality content either and is prone to factual inaccuracies. With whatever references we have with us it's clear that the current article Sathya Sai Organization meant to be referring to Sri Sathya Sai International Organization and that Sri Sathya Sai Central Trust are two different entities, and have been in the past confused with the other. Hope we can fix it going into future. ---CX Zoom(^he/_him) (^{let's talk}|_contribs) 06:21, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Additional reference

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Specific text to be added or removed: Please add reference of the Book Love is My Form - A Biographical Series on Sri Sathya Sai Baba by R.Padmanabhan ISBN 8186822771 Reason for the change: The Book is a biography of Sri Sathya Sai Baba from 1926 to 1950 with documented evidences References supporting change: https://g.co/kgs/mXHuvG Venkatant (talk) 13:19, 17 September 2021 (UTC)  Not done No info about which specific text in the article would be supported by this source. The book is almost certainly not a reliable source in any case. The publisher is Sai Towers Publishing, run by the Sai Baba organisation, and the author has apparently only published various hagiographies about Sai Baba. --bonadea contributions talk 08:30, 18 September 2021 (UTC) Dear Bonadea, Your claims that Sai Towers is run by Sri Sathya Sai Central Trust is inaccurate. I will request you to relook at this claim. This is a published biography of Sri Sathya Sai Baba by a Private Organization without any links to Sri Sathya Sai Central Trust Venkatant (talk) 14:53, 18 September 2021 (UTC) I did not claim that it was run by the Sri Sathya Sai Central Trust. It is however directly connected to Sai Baba, and it is not a reliable source. --bonadea contributions talk 21:28, 18 September 2021 (UTC) Dear Bonadea, In your review statement, 'The publisher is Sai Towers Publishing, run by the Sai Baba organisation' is inaccurate. Sai Baba Organisation is 'Sri Sathya Sai Central Trust' for which edits are already requested. Sai Towers Publishing has nothing to do with the organisation established by Sri Sathya Sai Baba. It is a private organization. The Book is a biography and is connected to Sri Sathya Sai Baba in that way. The intention of mentioning this in references is because the Book is a documented Biography available on Amazon https://www.amazon.in/Love-My-Form-Advent-1926-1950/dp/8186822771 Sri Sathya Sai Central Trust in no way is promoting the book. You can choose to either consider this or leave it Venkatant (talk) 22:55, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

The word "alleged"

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Specific text to be added or removed: we would like to contest the word 'alleged' in the statement 'From a young age, he has been alleged to have been capable of materialising objects such as food and sweets out of thin air.' We suggest the word be replaced with 'From a young age, he has been reputed to have been capable of materialising objects such as food and sweets out of thin air.' Reason for the change: Who has to acknowledge this? There are several books written with documented evidences. There is no international body to accredit miracles. List the books with documented evidence below References supporting change: a) Love is My form ISBN 8186822763 b) Autobiography of peddabottu - ISBN 8192891933 Garli Sharada Devi alias Peddabottu had the unique distinction of being a contemporary to both the Sai Incarnations, Bhagawan Sri Shirdi Sai Baba of Shirdi and Bhagawan Sri Sathya Sai Baba of Puttaparthi. Not only that she was a contemporary to both the Incarnations, but was doubly fortunate to be recognised by Bhagawan as a devotee during His previous Advent at Shirdi. This autobiography originally published in Telugu, now translated into English by Sathya Sai Shree Lakshmi is a lucid narration of the sweet but tough 'struggle and suffering' that the author had to undergo to set right the karmic imbalance in her earthly sojourn, to finally merge at His Divine Lotus Feet. c) Sai Baba - Man of Miracles by Howard Murphet ISBN : 0877283354 d) Sathya Sai Anandadayi ISBN : 978-93-5069-152-6 Venkatant (talk) 13:19, 17 September 2021 (UTC) References  Not done "alleged" is an appropriate word here. None of the four sources you list meets the requirements for reliable sources, especially not for an extraordinary claim. --bonadea contributions talk 12:41, 18 September 2021 (UTC) Dear Bonadea, The word 'alleged' sounds too judgemental. In this instance, the claim is ordinary or extra ordinary, I wouldn't debate that but there are sections on either side. The topic is something similar to 'Sainthood' bestowed by Catholic church. For example, wikipedia doesn't state 'alleged' miracles for bestowing Saint hood on Saint Mother Theresa. Hence the request to be neutral. Also, there is no international body to recognize 'miracles'. Oxford dictionary states that the word 'alleged' means 'stated as a fact but without any proof'. Now there are books and wikipedia reliable sources which stay neutral and we request the same to be incorporated in wikipedia too. a) https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2011/may/06/sathya-sai-baba is a neutral article and the editor of the article speaks about both sides of the coin 'There are riveting accounts by devotees of encounters with Sathya Sai Baba. One westerner records being handed a "freshly glazed" photograph, produced in the swami's palm as if by magic, with the address of his ashram on the back. "You've been asking for my address," Sathya Sai Baba tells him. "Here it is. Keep it in your wallet." There are numerous tales of patients beings healed by the swami's sacred ash. In one of the more fantastic tales, the swami is approached by a terminally ill woman; her only hope of survival is a treatment that is available exclusively in Japan, but she does not have the means to travel. The swami smiles, points to a door and asks her to open it. She does. On the other side is Japan.' b) There are published books with ISBN details given only to show other side of the statement and to see if the word 'alleged' or the whole statement could be 'neutralized'. c) https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/apr/24/sri-sathya-sai-baba-dies d) https://www.theage.com.au/world/indian-guru-sai-baba-mourned-by-thousands-20110425-1du9s.html talks about both critics and believers (also see https://www.theage.com.au/entertainment/theatre/miracle-man-20120507-1y8ys.html) Reference Believers - Sai Baba was credited by millions of followers across the globe with supernatural powers, including the ability to conjure objects out of thin air, remember past lives and cure terminal diseases. Critics - His capacity to miraculously produce gold coins and watches at public meetings was often dismissed as a basic magic trick -- criticism that did nothing to dent his popularity. e) https://www.foxnews.com/world/revered-hindu-guru-sathya-sai-baba-dies-at-age-84 'He was said to perform miracles, conjuring jewelry, Rolex watches and "vibhuti" — a sacred ash that his followers applied to their foreheads — from his halo of wild, frizzy hair.' Venkatant (talk) 23:24, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Add "recognitions"

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Specific text to be added or removed: In Recognition section, please add the following In October 2020, the United Nations (ECOSOC) has accorded an august global recognition to the Sri Sathya Sai Central Trust, for its unparalleled humanitarian work, by granting it a Special Consultative Status. In July 2021, the Government of Andhra Pradesh announces the prestigious 'YSR Life Time Achievement awards for Public Service' to Sri Sathya Sai Central Trust, Prasanthi Nilayam under the institutions category. Reason for the change: To reflect the recognitions and depict the updated status References supporting change: https://english.sakshi.com/news/andhrapradesh/ysr-lifetime-achievement-awards-public-service-sri-sathya-sai-central-trust and https://www.un.org/press/en/2020/ngo901.doc.htm Venkatant (talk) 13:19, 17 September 2021 (UTC) References  Not done The "Recognition" section is for recognitions given to the Sai Baba himself. --bonadea contributions talk 12:32, 18 September 2021 (UTC) Dear Benedea, Noted. Once the correction on Sri Sathya Sai Organisation to Sri Sathya Sai Central Trust is complete, will request for a change in the wikipage there Venkatant (talk) 00:29, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Colour picture

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Specific text to be added or removed:Infobox Hindu Leader - Please can the picture be changed to Color Reason for the change: To show color photo of Sri Sathya Sai Baba References supporting change: https://media.radiosai.org/journals/vol_12/01JUL14/guru-poornima-sathya-sai-baba-in-bliss/6.jpg Venkatant (talk) 13:19, 17 September 2021 (UTC) References  Not done Please see Wikipedia:Image use policy. The image has not been released under a compatible licence. There are some colour photos at Commons, which would (probably) be possible to use, see commons:Category:Sathya Sai Baba. --bonadea contributions talk 12:18, 18 September 2021 (UTC) Dear Bonadea, Please can the following image be used thumb|Sri Sathya Sai Baba in Prasanthi Nilayam https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sri_Sathya_Sai_Baba.jpg Venkatant (talk) 00:28, 19 September 2021 (UTC) While I am not in any way a copyright expert, I don't think an image that includes (on the image itself!) the phrase "Sri Sathaya Sai Media Centre revokes all licence" is going to be acceptable. You (that is, the Media Centre) have published the image at Commons under a compatible licence. When you then say "we revoke the licence" it means that you are withdrawing the licence. You can't do that once you have published the image (see commons:Commons:License revocation), and even if the text should be based on a misunderstanding of what "revoke" means, it is still there on the image. If you have questions about how to handle these matters, please ask them of the people over at Commons. I have changed the grainy black-and-white image to a colour image that was already at Commons. --bonadea contributions talk 11:35, 9 October 2021 (UTC) @bonadea : The icons indicate commons license. The text can be reworded and pictures be reupload with following 'Sri Sathya Sai Media Centre revokes Copyright claim'. Will this work? Apologies but please understand, we are only trying to rectify links and right images. Will appreciate help in helping us do it right Venkatant (talk) 15:47, 9 October 2021 (UTC) @bonadea : The images are uploaded revoking copyrights claim by Sri Sathya Sai Media Centre and the icons indicate commons license. Web Source Sri Sathya Sai Media Centre a) Infobox Hindu Leader Pic, may we request to be changed to https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sri_Sathya_Sai_Baba_at_Brindavan.jpg b) Saibaba at 14 image in proclamation, may we request to be changed to https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sri_Sathya_Sai_Baba_at_14.jpg which is the right image of Sri Sathya Sai :::::: Baba at 14, immediately after Sathya Sai Baba at the age of 14, soon after proclaiming he is the reincarnation of Shirdi Sai Baba a) Road side sai baba shrine in Ashrams and Mandir, may we request to be changed to https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Prasanthi_Nilayam_Main_Entrance.jpg , Prasanthi Nilayam the :::::: Ashram of Sri Sathya Sai Baba a) Sathya Sai Baba Samadhi Pic, may we request to be changed to http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sri_Sathya_Sai_Baba_Mahasamadhi_without_Copyrights.jpg Venkatant (talk) 06:47, 11 October 2021 (UTC) To repeat what I said above: If you have questions about how to handle these matters, please ask them of the people over at Commons. I have never seen an image in a Wikipedia article with icons and licencing information in the image itself, so I have no idea whether that is appropriate/allowed. Please also follow WP:INDENT. --bonadea contributions talk 07:20, 11 October 2021 (UTC) @bonadea : We checked and here are the sources. On our website, we explicitly revoked copyright licenses for the images below Sri Sathya Sai Media Centre Images. Images uploaded in Flickr account with Public domain. Sri Sathya Sai at 14, Sri Sathya Sai Baba, Prasanthi Nilayam Ashram , Sri Sathya Sai Baba Mahasamadhi . The Same images are now on Wikipedia. Now I hope there should not be a concern in changing a) Infobox Hindu Leader Pic, may we request to be changed to https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sri_Sathya_Sai_Baba_at_Brindavan_Ashram.jpg b) Saibaba at 14 image in proclamation, may we request to be changed to https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sri_Sathya_Sai_at_14.jpg "Baba at 14, immediately after Sathya Sai Baba at the age of 14, soon after proclaiming he is the reincarnation of Shirdi Sai Baba" a) Road side sai baba shrine in Ashrams and Mandir, may we request to be changed to https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sri_Sathya_Sai_Baba_Ashram_-_Prasanthi_Nilayam.jpg , Prasanthi Nilayam the Ashram of Sri Sathya Sai Baba a) Sathya Sai Baba Samadhi Pic, may we request to be changed to https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sri_Sathya_Sai_Baba_Mahasamadhi_at_Sai_Kulwant_Hall.jpg Venkatant (talk) 08:28, 11 October 2021 (UTC) Partially done, changed the infobox pic and the image of him at age 14. It is unclear how the other images relate to the existing ones, and it might be better to remove some images from the article altogether. --bonadea contributions talk 10:34, 11 October 2021 (UTC) @bonadea Thank You. I can explain about other images. Instead of Road Side shrine pic, Prasanthi Nilayam the ashram of Sri Sathya Sai Baba can be added. You could remove the image also. The other image in Sai Organization section could be replaced with Sri Sathya Sai Baba final resting place called "Mahasamadhi" in Prasanthi Nilayam which is head quaters of Sri Sathya Sai Central Trust. Venkatant (talk) 11:35, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Miraculous acts, sleight of hand

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Specific text to be added or removed: We request a change in the statement 'His acts were based on sleight of hand though his devotees believe them signs of his divinity.[9][10][11]' to 'His miraculous acts were considered by devotees to be divine work while critics believe otherwise. Reason for the change: The earlier sentence is not neutral as per Wikipedia guidelines and indicates that Sri Sathya Sai Baba was indeed doing sleight of hand and is highly judgemental. References supporting change: Sai Baba - Man of Miracles by Howard Murphet ISBN : 0877283354 Venkatant (talk) 13:19, 17 September 2021 (UTC) References  Not done Of course Wikipedia could not call it "miraculous", and it would be factually incorrect to imply that it was only "critics" who didn't believe in his supernatural powers. The suggested sources are not appropriate for an enecyclopedic article. That a magic trick is performed by means of sleight of hand is not judgmental but factual, and we do have a reliable independent source explaining this. --bonadea contributions talk 21:38, 18 September 2021 (UTC) Dear Bonadea, Sri Sathya Sai Baba did Magic is not factual. 'His acts were based on sleight of hand' statement indicates that it has been proven without doubt, which is not factually correct. This isn't a court verdict that Sri Sathya Sai Baba has done such tricks. On the contrary, two Indian Prime Ministers have highly spoken about Him, Atal Bihari Vajpayee (see responses section in same wikipedia page) and Manmohan Singh <rel>https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/apr/24/sri-sathya-sai-baba-dies</rel> has said 'He was a spiritual leader who inspired millions to lead a moral and meaningful life even as they followed the religion of their choice' May I request you to use a neutral word instead of 'sleight of hand', and the reliable sources and neutral material added below for your reference. If you see Page edit requests, few other editors also felt that this wording is judgemental 'https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2011/may/06/sathya-sai-baba' can be referred which is neutral. Another reference 'https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/apr/24/sri-sathya-sai-baba-dies' - 'But though revered by millions around the world as a living god, he was a controversial figure, criticised by some as a fraud protected by political influence.' Fox news reference, https://www.foxnews.com/world/revered-hindu-guru-sathya-sai-baba-dies-at-age-84 - 'He was said to perform miracles, conjuring jewelry, Rolex watches and "vibhuti" — a sacred ash that his followers applied to their foreheads — from his halo of wild, frizzy hair.' — Preceding unsigned comment added by Venkatant (talk • contribs) 02:52, 19 September 2021 (UTC) Just a note on the sources: first, they're quite old. The "commentisfree" section of The Guardian is not usable because it's not an official article. Fox News should generally be avoided when better sources exist. Lastly a general comment: it is obvious to most (outside of some devotees) that the "lingam materializations" were simple tricks. —PaleoNeonate – 16:23, 19 September 2021 (UTC) @bonadea @Paleo - The issue is with the judgemental nature of the statement 'His acts were based on sleight of hand though his devotees believe them signs of his divinity.' as if Wikipedia is ascertaining. The references provided are of 2011 and so are the references given in Wikipedia for this statement. The statement could be reworded and neutralised to the following 'His acts were alleged to be based on sleight of hand though his devotees believe them signs of his divinity. This is the change that is being requested to keep the 'Judgemental tone' out of the sentence Venkatant (talk) 06:19, 20 September 2021 (UTC) please can the requested changes be reviewed Venkatant (talk) 08:31, 3 October 2021 (UTC) Based on the prose, if we were going to change the sentence, it could be done as followed: "Multiple studies concluded that his acts were based on sleight of hand, though his devotees believe them signs of his divinity." Would that better attribute the claim? —C.Fred (talk) 15:23, 3 October 2021 (UTC) @Fred - The 3 references already mentioned for this statement, one is CNN article and then 2 books which state certain views. There was no such 'Study' in literal terms. I think a much neutral statement would be 'Critics were of the opinion that his acts were based on sleight of hand, though his devotees believe them signs of his divinity' Venkatant (talk) 12:17, 7 October 2021 (UTC) Request for the statement 'His acts were based on sleight of hand though his devotees believe them signs of his divinity.' to be made neutral in the second paragraph of the Wikipedia Page to Critics were of the opinion that his acts were based on sleight of hand, though his devotees believe them signs of his divinity Venkatant (talk) 15:26, 9 October 2021 (UTC) (edit conflict) @C.Fred: That's an OK phrasing, I'd say. @Venkatant: There are three sources in the lede but multiple sources in the article itself. (The lede does not need to include any sources, as long as it summarises sourced information in the article body). It would not be neutral to say "critics are of the opinion that...". --bonadea contributions talk 15:36, 9 October 2021 (UTC) @C.Fred : How can it be neutral to say 'His acts were based on sleight of hand'? It is judgmental. The sentence needs to be reworded to remove judgmental tone. While the suggested statement is perfectly neutral where two opinions are equally put across without Judgement. Venkatant (talk) 15:44, 9 October 2021 (UTC) @Venkatant: But there are not two opinions – there is one extraordinary claim which contradicts accepted mainstream science, and one counterclaim which is in line with accepted mainstream science. We have to try to edit in line with Wikipedia's policies on neutrality and verifiability, which (among other things) means we have to edit in line with this guideline. It would not be neutral to say "critics are of the opinion that...". Please indent your replies on talk pages. Thanks! --bonadea contributions talk 15:52, 9 October 2021 (UTC) @bonadea - Like you said there is a claim and counter claim but the statement is ascertaining 1st claim i.e., 'His acts were based on' while devotees believe. Just to show the judgemental tone, if the same sentence was reworded other wise 'His acts were signs of divinity thought critics believe them as sleight of hand' it would mean Wiki is confirming. Same rationale applies for the existing statement. References to 2 books are accepted as 'Sleight of hand' but there are several books that talk otherwise. All we ask is not to pass judgement on Wikipedia page as per the Wikipedia guidelines. A book published cannot be a study. Book references provided earlier in this Talk page were not accepted citing various reasons. If the suggested change is not accepted, please suggest how this statement can be made Non-Judgemental — Preceding unsigned comment added by Venkatant (talk • contribs) 16:05, 9 October 2021 (UTC) Thank you for indenting. It does not look as if you quite understood my argument; I did not say "there is a claim and a counter claim", but there is one extraordinary claim which contradicts accepted mainstream science, and one counterclaim which is in line with accepted mainstream science. Your concern is addressed in this guideline which is also linked from my previous post. Again, I think C.Fred's suggested change to the wording would be OK. --bonadea contributions talk 16:20, 9 October 2021 (UTC) @bonadea - In the suggested sentence by Fred, 'Multiple studies concluded'. A study indicates 'the activity of examining a subject in detail in order to discover new information'. Now what studies are we referring to? How many years was this study and in which lab or Centre was Sri Sathya Sai Baba subjected to this study? You see where I am going with this. In the guidelines link, section 'Evaluating and describing claims', the neutrality suggested is "Although Halbronn possibly knows more about the texts and associated archives than almost anybody else alive (he helped dig out and research many of them), most other specialists in the field reject this view." Similarly, the same guideline can be applied here to neutralize the statement than passing judgement. Venkatant (talk) 03:50, 10 October 2021 (UTC) @C.Fred and @bonadea - Can you please suggest alternative word than study? Venkatant (talk) 08:30, 11 October 2021 (UTC) "Study" is fine. --bonadea contributions talk 10:15, 11 October 2021 (UTC) @bonadea Already provided reasoning on word 'Study'. There is no study and it would be biased as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view to mention so. The bias is quite clear in the statement. Let me take further opportunity to explain how biased the statement Multiple studies have concluded that his acts were based on sleight of hand or had other explanations that were not supernatural, although his devotees believe them to be signs of his divinity is. The word study needs to be justified. There are 3 references given for this statement. This statement removes the bias "Critics have concluded that his acts were based on sleight of hand or had other explanations that were not supernatural, although his devotees believe them to be signs of his divinity" a) CNN article written by Harmeet Shah Singh, and the article says "His followers believe he has supernatural powers. However, critics have accused him". There is no mention of study. b) The book Gurus in America by edited by Thomas A. Forsthoefel, Cynthia Ann Humes. The only reference to Sri Sathya Sai Baba in the book is in foot note talking about Human Values. This is available in Google books for anyone to research properly https://books.google.co.in/books?id=xHrZU7k7cy4C&printsec=frontcover&vq=sathya+sai+baba#v=onepage&q&f=false c) The book Disenchanting India: Organized Rationalism and Criticism of Religion in India talks about some group claiming they can do the same things. That is not a study but the group claims. Venkatant (talk) 12:37, 11 October 2021 (UTC) I agree with user Venkatant, and I don't believe in Sai Baba's miracles. The references do not support the words "multiple studies", and the first one simply explains why 'rationalists' reject the possibility of miracles a priori. --2607:FEA8:FF01:4E54:AD1C:44E5:558E:D079 (talk) 16:45, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

@CXZoom : Thank You, I can share required documentation to correct the article factually. For some reason, earlier Wiki editors displayed prejudice. Venkatant (talk) 10:19, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

Using copyright free images released by Sri Sathya Sai Media Centre

Following are the suggested changes to Wikipedia Images

a) The Infobox (Personal) with Sri Sathya Sai Baba Image, the file File:Sri Sathya Sai Baba.jpg. Sri Sathya Sai Media Centre has released copyright claims https://www.sssmediacentre.org/#/album-detail-page/61613579ba3503be6af77518 and has released the image with creative commons license https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/.

b) The Infobox (proclamation) is not of 1940. Sri Sathya Sai Baba was born in 1926 and the right image at the age of 14 right after proclamation is released for wikipedia corrections 'Sathya Sai Baba at the age of 14, soon after proclaiming he was the reincarnation of Shirdi Sai Baba'. Sri Sathya Sai Media Centre has released copyright claims https://www.sssmediacentre.org/#/album-detail-page/61613579ba3503be6af77518 and has released the image with creative commons license https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/.

c) Sathya Sai Organisation (Road Side Shrine image), the head quarters of Sri Sathya Sai Central Trust and all Sai Organizations is Prasanthi Nilayam as mentioned in the same page. The image of Prasanthi Nilayam is released by Sri Sathya Sai Media Centre https://www.sssmediacentre.org/#/album-detail-page/61613579ba3503be6af77518 under creative commons license https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/.

d) Sathya Sai Baba Samadhi image on wikipedia, does not show anything. Please can the right images be used to correct Wikipedia page. The right image of Sri Sathya Sai Baba Maha Samadhi is released by Sri Sathya Sai media centre https://www.sssmediacentre.org/#/album-detail-page/61613579ba3503be6af77518 under creative commons license https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

Venkatant (talk) 15:21, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Please keep the discussions about the same topic in the same section. There is a response in Talk:Sathya_Sai_Baba#Colour_picture which explains why those images were removed from the article, and what you should do. --bonadea contributions talk 15:42, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

@bonadea : The icons indicate commons license. The text can be reworded and pictures be reupload with following 'Sri Sathya Sai Media Centre revokes Copyright claim'. Will this work? Apologies but please understand, we are only trying to rectify links and right images. Will appreciate help in helping us do it right. Happy to discuss under section mentioned by You

Venkatant (talk) 15:48, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

2nd para : Not wiki standard text

Reference the second par, 'Multiple studies have suggested that his acts were based on sleight of hand or had other explanations that were not supernatural, although his devotees believe them to be signs of his divinity but they have been quashed by his devotees time and again.'

Ending the sentence with 'but they have been quashed by his devotees time and again.' is not proper. Nowhere have the claims of divinity/miracles made by Sathya Sai Baba and his devotees been vindicated by controlled science experiments and there is no agreement amongst socio-religious scholars of the day on his divinity or miracles. To keep this sentence neutral and avoid the last part , which appears to be the view of a confirmed devotee we should just remove the last part and keep the sentence as ' Multiple studies have suggested that his acts were based on sleight of hand or had other explanations that were not supernatural, although his devotees believe them to be signs of his divinity.' This is exactly the status quo as of now, his devotees believe in his divinity and consider his acts to be genuine miracles, while there are also multiple people who subscribe to the 'sleight of hand' theory. Suksane (talk) 17:05, 3 April 2022 (UTC)