Talk:Kanjuruhan Stadium disaster: Difference between revisions

Content deleted Content added

Inline

Revision as of 08:59, 2 October 2022

This article has not yet been rated on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Current events

This article is part of WikiProject Current events, an attempt to expand and better organize information in articles related to current events. If you would like to participate in the project, visit the project page or contribute to the discussion.Current eventsWikipedia:WikiProject Current eventsTemplate:WikiProject Current eventsCurrent events articles

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Death Start‑class Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Death on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DeathWikipedia:WikiProject DeathTemplate:WikiProject DeathDeath articles
Start	This article has been rated as Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Disaster management Start‑class Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Disaster management, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Disaster management on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Disaster managementWikipedia:WikiProject Disaster managementTemplate:WikiProject Disaster managementDisaster management articles
Start	This article has been rated as Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Indonesia Start‑class Mid‑importance

	Indonesia portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Indonesia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Indonesia and Indonesia-related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IndonesiaWikipedia:WikiProject IndonesiaTemplate:WikiProject IndonesiaIndonesia articles
Start	This article has been rated as Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.

Football Start‑class Mid‑importance

	Association football portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Football, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Association football on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.FootballWikipedia:WikiProject FootballTemplate:WikiProject Footballfootball articles
Start	This article has been rated as Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

It is requested that an image or photograph of the disaster, not only the stadium photo before the disaster be included in this article to improve its quality. Please replace this template with a more specific media request template where possible.

Wikipedians in Indonesia may be able to help!

The Free Image Search Tool or Openverse Creative Commons Search may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites.

Upload

Title

@WaddlesJP13: Shouldn't the title include "disaster" instead of "stampede" in order to harmonize it with articles of similar case? Regards, Jeromi Mikhael 00:52, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Jeromi Mikhael: That may have to be decided between you and page creator SunDawn (and possibly other people, but it may be easier to make the page move now rather than later). I'm not really too familiar with this event and only merged the two articles since both appeared in the Page Curation backlog whilst I was page reviewing. Waddles 🗩 🖉 00:58, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Jeromi Mikhael: After looking at Template:Human crushes, it looks like many other similar articles use "stampede" rather than "disaster". Waddles 🗩 🖉 01:03, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 2 October 2022

It has been proposed in this section that Kanjuruhan Stadium disaster be renamed and moved to 2022 Kanjuruhan Stadium stampede.

A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly.

Links: current log • target log • direct move

2022 Kanjuruhan Stadium disaster → 2022 Kanjuruhan Stadium stampede – Apologies if its too early for this, but many similar articles have been titled with "stampede" as opposed to "disaster". This would also be a more accurate title, specifying the nature of the disaster as a stampede. See 1 and 2 for a few examples. Precise and recognizable in accordance with WP:CRITERIA. — That Coptic Guy (talk) 04:25, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom. Reading a bit more into this event it seems like stampede worked just fine. Disaster is ambiguous. Waddles 🗩 🖉 05:07, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. Yogwi21 (talk) 05:20, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Strongly oppose. This is a potential mass murder, which most people in the world are not yet even aware of, there is no need to be hurrying to come to conclusions about its nature. Disaster is neutral and accurate and doesn't employ dehumanizing animalistic language. See Hillsborough disaster. Absolutely not. No. Vile, especially considering that Wikipedia WILL be used as sources in news articles (more often than the other way round) Sumbuddi (talk) 05:22, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
~~Oppose~~ Strongly oppose. These other major football-related incidents, which are among the five worst football-related incidents alongside Kanjuruhan, can be used as examples: Estadio Nacional disaster, Accra Sports Stadium disaster, Hillsborough disaster, 1988 Dasharath Stadium disaster. All of those included stampedes in some way. The first two (Estadio Nacional, Accra) even had losing team supporters invading the field and police employing tear gases as important elements of the incidents, with the almost-exact fashion to that of Kanjuruhan. If we use "stampede" instead of "disaster", I'm afraid that we're not following the consistency between similar articles in Wikipedia. Dhio (talk?) 05:29, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Indonesian media overwhelmingly describe to this as "tragedy". "Tear gas" is the most discussed keyword rather than "stampede", because some also die by asphyxiation. I personally don't know in English whether disaster or tragedy the correct word for this event. Hddty (talk) 05:39, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Foreign-based and english-speaking media looks different. Most of them use "stampede", like BBC, The Japan Times, etc. 125.167.57.167 (talk) 05:56, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, disaster is the consensus term, as can be seen at Category:Stadium disasters. Abductive (reasoning) 06:02, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose, per Sumbuddi and Hddty Nyanardsan (talk) 06:05, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Looking into it, stampede would fit this incident and would be more in line with how the other Wikipedia Articles are named. For examples Al Jazeera, BBC, The Guardian, Reuters, and Laotian Times, among many others, all refer to as a "stampede" and this should be its proper name.

Smuckers ^{It has to be good} 06:06, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Reliable sources using “stampede” is a compelling argument, but I’d note that other Wikipedia articles about similar crowd crushes at soccer games tend to use “disaster”. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 06:15, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I refered you to reply by Hddty above. Also, the nature of this tragedy is still being discussed, was it a riot, stampede, or anything else. Nyanardsan (talk) 06:18, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment We should probably follow what reliable sources are saying, but it seems like the most accurate way to describe this is to call it a crowd crush. I’d note that other Wikipedia articles about similar crowd crushes at soccer games tend to call them disasters, so calling it a disaster fits better with WP:TITLECON. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 06:07, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Oppose at least as for now while waiting the official result of the cause, was it really due to overcapacity, hooligans or the mistakes committed by the polices by firing tear gas to the audience seats, thus 'Disaster' is the most neutral and inclusive terms for all of the possible causes - at this moment. Chongkian (talk) 07:46, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Per Aljazeera event also included injuries/death by teargas and vehicle burning. Disaster seems to be accurate. Squeezdakat (talk) 07:59, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

FIFA Regulation Misunderstanding

The scope of the regulation (from page 12):

3. If an association or confederation arranges an event that will be administrated and governed by its own competition regulations, the respective association’s or confederation’s own safety and security regulations shall apply and these regulations may only serve as guidelines.

In short, FIFA does not mandate the regulation to be followed at national competition. This is only mandatory for FIFA events. 2001:448A:50E2:F771:EDE7:CC63:3516:FCE1 (talk) 08:16, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I am not a lawyer but the regulation itself is widely mentioned by the national media about the event, so even if that supposed to mean that way, we should keep it in the article. Nyanardsan (talk) 08:32, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't intend to have it removed, only to add additional information so it is not misunderstood by general public anymore.

Aftermath and Reaction

Should we create reaction section? Aftermath will show how the condition of people and venue, meanwhile the reaction section will cover reaction of federation, police, and world. BurningHill (talk) 08:38, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 51: / Line 51: @@
 :I am not a lawyer but the regulation itself is widely mentioned by the national media about the event, so even if that supposed to mean that way, we should keep it in the article. [[User:Nyanardsan|Nyanardsan]] ([[User talk:Nyanardsan|talk]]) 08:32, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
+I didn't intend to have it removed, only to add additional information so it is not misunderstood by general public anymore.
 == Aftermath and Reaction ==