Talk:Spain

Lead is too long?

The lead in this article seems too long? If you take a look at WP:LEAD, "As a general rule of thumb, a lead section should contain no more than four well-composed paragraphs and be carefully sourced as appropriate." I feel like this lead is well-written and it lists a lot of relevant facts, but maybe the history section is too long and some things may be redundant or unnecessary (such as listing all the major organizations Spain is a member of). For comparison see the leads in United States and Germany, which have four paragraphs. Not sure what should be removed. Alcismo (talk) 19:17, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

@Venezia Friulano: I am attempting to clean up the article (both the lead and the body), by pulling the likes of the removal of chauvinistic tics and remarks, the de-emphasisation of war porn, and the reduction of the "great men" historical framing, or more broadly speaking, the unwarranted 'weight to', 'focus on' or 'mention to' individual people. I think that this should be rather uncontroversial (particularly when the content is unsourced or poorly sourced), but please discuss here if you have a doubt about a particular edit.--Asqueladd (talk) 17:01, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

I have quite a few doubts about what you consider "chauvinistic" because some things you have deleted are objective facts, whether they are more or less a source of pride, and many of your additions are quite imprecise, as in the case that I told you about the eventual expulsion of Jews and not just Muslims. But anyway, what I do ask you is to moderate your writing. You seem to be constantly trying to attack personally, and your edits often contain unfortunate explanations. Also try to avoid POV pushing and Edit War, just wait and see what other people think. Venezia Friulano (talk) 20:42, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

In any case the new wording was incomplete (take into account that brief excerpt tries to account for both the forced conversion—with refusing families facing expulsion—of Jews and Muslims and the eventual expulsion of the Moriscos). Not wrong. Contrariwise, please observe that the former wording suggested that the effective expulsion of the Moriscos was done through the Inquisition, which is largely wrong.--Asqueladd (talk) 00:04, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

Let's take it one step at a time @Venezia Friulano:: Could you tell me why do you persist on adding (in the already overextended lead, no less) that three Roman emperors were born in the Iberian Peninsula (actually one birthplace happen to be a moot question))? Are you aware that that content entails a degree of chauvinistic name boasting adding little to none historical substance? Are you aware that the lead is already too long and yet the also overextented historical paragraphs fail to account for barely any content after the point of "emergent Spain as a unified State" [sic], while it derails with WP:TRIVIA such as that nugget of information from Antiquity. Do you think that is a serious way to handle a lead section? Doesn't it make more sense to dispense with this information in the introduction?--Asqueladd (talk) 21:13, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

To consider that the cultural base of Spain is the Latin base and that in its history there were Roman emperors is chauvinism? It seems to me that you have a very distant idea of ​​what Chauvinism is. Venezia Friulano (talk) 21:18, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

You are failing to adress the issues. Could you tell me why do you persist on adding (in the already overextended lead, no less) that three Roman emperors were born in the Iberian Peninsula (actually one birthplace happen to be a moot question))? Are you aware that that content entails name boasting adding little to none historical substance? Are you aware that the lead is already too long and yet the also overextended historical paragraphs fail to account for barely any content after the point of "emergent Spain as a unified State" [sic], while it derails with WP:TRIVIA such as that nugget of information from Antiquity? Doesn't it make more sense to dispense with this information in the introduction? That is, that unless you want to 'boast' about people, the space-limited presentation of the topic 'Spain' doesn't need to mention the territory of current-day Spain as the birthplace of three Roman emperors?--Asqueladd (talk) 21:25, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

I dont consider that this addition is a problem for the Lead due to its small size, and I consider it more relevant than mentioning the silver mining of the New World that you added for example. Venezia Friulano (talk) 21:31, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

So you also consider fine speaking about the emergence of a global trading system while failing to account how? This is mesmerizing. Perhaps we need third party takes.--Asqueladd (talk) 21:36, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

For something secondary, the how is already in the body of the article. Venezia Friulano (talk) 21:41, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

@Venezia Friulano:Do you mind if I seek third party opinions?--Asqueladd (talk) 21:59, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

Of course not, the Talk is for that Venezia Friulano (talk) 22:03, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

@Alcismo, Moxy, Carlstak, and Largoplazo: Could you give an opinion about the content pertaining to the lead section of this article?--Asqueladd (talk) 22:06, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

I'd probably want to give the general question careful consideration, but regarding the Roman emperors: Honestly, if I asked somebody to give me a four-paragraph summary of Spain (of the objective variety, focusing on the basics, not of the "10 Cool Things You Never Knew About Spain" variety), I wouldn't expect it to include the number of Roman emperors who were born there. Largoplazo (talk) 23:27, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

For what it's worth, the history coverage in the lead, on my screen, is 28 lines long, only four lines shorter than the lead of History of Spain. I'd say the historical concentration in this article's lead is way out of balance. Largoplazo (talk) 23:39, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that there are heavy WP:BALASP issues vis-á-vis the prominency of the history section compared to the rest of the lead. Yet at the same time, there are further BALASP issues within that section (no modern content other than the ethnocide of muslims and jews and the mention to the overseas empire, hence no late modern history whatsoever!). My humble suggestion is to start by removing any mention to an individual from the lead (if so, we have yet to remove Columbus, the Catholic monarchs and the aforementioned emperors).--Asqueladd (talk) 23:48, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping, Asqueladd, but I'm too tired now to give this proper attention. The questions raised here are certainly worth our attention: this article is of top-level importance to an encyclopedia, and there's really no excuse for not making a good showing. I'm not going to draw any conclusions just yet. I will, however, note that Asqueladd has summoned competent, knowledgeable editors, and Venezia Friulano seems to be of good will. Surely we can work things out.;-) Carlstak (talk) 00:08, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

I bring this trimming proposal forward. Keep in mind a modicum of modern history content would still be needed. What do you think?--Asqueladd (talk) 01:05, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

I think it's fine. I've added and removed some parts. For example, I think that the mention of, among other things, Christopher Columbus is absolutely essential, I have also reduced and connected some parts:

"Anatomically modern humans first arrived in the Iberian Peninsula around 42,000 years ago. Pre-Roman peoples such as the Iberians, Celts, Celtiberians, Vascones, and Turdetani dwelled in the territory, in addition to the development of coastal trading colonies by Phoenicians and Ancient Greeks and the brief Carthaginian rule over the Mediterranean coastline. The Roman conquest of colonization of the peninsula (Hispania) ensued and left a long-lasting legacy that included their language, religion, laws and political and social institutions. Hispania was also the birthplace of Roman emperors such as Trajan or Hadrian.

Hispania remained under Roman rule until the collapse of the Western Roman Empire in the fourth century, which ushered in the migration of tribal confederations originally from behind the līmes. Eventually, the Germanic Visigoths emerged as the dominant power in the peninsula by the fifth century with the Visigothic Kingdom. In the early eighth century, most of the peninsula was conquered by the Umayyad Caliphate and several Christian kingdoms emerged in Northern Iberia in opposition, chief among them Asturias, León, Castile, Aragón, Portugal, and Navarre, giving rise to the period metahistorically framed as a reconquest, or Reconquista, culminated with the Christian seizure of the Emirate of Granada and the control of all Iberia by Christian powers in 1492. That same year, Christopher Columbus arrived in the New World on behalf of the Catholic Monarchs, whose dynastic union of the Crown of Castile and the Crown of Aragon is usually considered the emergent Spain as a unified country. Jews and Muslims were forced to convert to Catholicism and eventually expelled from Castile and Aragon. In the wake of the Spanish colonization of the Americas after 1492, the Crown came to hold a large overseas empire, which underpinned the emergence of a global trading system."

Venezia Friulano (talk) 10:04, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

I disagree with Venezia Friulano and stand by my proposal. Serious historical writing looks at historical processes rather than individuals. Far from being "essential" as Friulano argues, history should be dispensed from explanations relying on the alleged impact of great men, heroes or highly influential and unique individuals having a purported decisive historical effect". Hence I stand by avoiding any mention to an individual in the lead, including the aforementioned three Roman emperors and Columbus. Contrariwise, the mention to the "Columbus voyages" adds substantially nothing to the history of Spain when the substantial and long-lasting historical process (the Spanish colonization of the Americas after 1492) is already mentioned. Thus:

Anatomically modern humans first arrived in the Iberian Peninsula around 42,000 years ago. Pre-Roman peoples such as the Iberians, Celts, Celtiberians, Vascones, and Turdetani dwelled in the territory, in addition to the development of coastal trading colonies by Phoenicians and Ancient Greeks and the brief Carthaginian rule over the Mediterranean coastline. The Roman conquest of colonization of the peninsula (Hispania) ensued. The Romans left a legacy that included their language and a number of social institutions.

Hispania remained under Roman rule until the collapse of the Western Roman Empire in the fourth century, which ushered in the migration of tribal confederations originally from behind the līmes. Eventually, the Germanic Visigoths emerged as the dominant power in the peninsula by the fifth century. In the early eighth century, most of the peninsula was conquered by the Umayyad Caliphate. During the early Islamic rule, Al-Andalus became the dominant peninsular power, centered in Córdoba. Several Christian kingdoms emerged in Northern Iberia, chief among them León, Castile, Aragón, Portugal, and Navarre. Over the next seven centuries, an intermittent southward expansion of these kingdoms—metahistorically framed as a reconquest, or Reconquista—culminated with the Christian seizure of the Emirate of Granada in 1492. Jews and Muslims were forced to chose between conversion to Catholicism or expulsion and the Morisco converts were eventually expelled. The dynastic union of the Crown of Castile and the Crown of Aragon ensued with the annexation of Navarre. In the wake of the Spanish colonization of the Americas after 1492, the Crown came to hold a large overseas empire, which underpinned the emergence of a global trading system primarily fuelled by the silver extracted in the New World.

Btw, I remind that an additional mini paragraph (3 lines at least) of modern history is still needed.

--Asqueladd (talk) 16:39, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

There are thousands of history books that show no problem in mentioning key historical people to explain the history of a country. I don't know exactly what the problem is in mentioning Christopher Columbus, he was a key figure in the history of Spain and is easily recognizable to the reader. In the France article Napoleon is named, because it is obviously necessary as he is important to explain French history. And apart from your disagreement with naming historical people, I have maintained and accepted almost all of your initial proposal, but you have ruled out absolutely all of mine. Venezia Friulano (talk) 19:25, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

Venezia Friulano, I think this discussion in its current format is running out of steam. It would be desirable to have more opinions, but it seems crystal-clear to me that no matter how you look at it the limited length corresponding to the lead section is not for rash name-dropping. Period.--Asqueladd (talk) 00:54, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Please re-read my entire previous message. It is convenient for both of us to compromise on some parts, and it is important that there is a consensus or other opinions before doing something. Thanks. Venezia Friulano (talk) 10:17, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Here's my proposal for a summary on modern history, based partly on the article España in Spanish. This could be the third of the four paragraphs according to WP:LEAD... At least, maybe they could be? What do you think? Please read the notes to see why I emphasised specific phrases or events before criticising the text... Also I haven't revised this a lot, I have other things to do as I am sure you understand. EDIT: I just added a second paragraph, so these would be the two central paragraphs on WP:LEAD. I am very much open to criticism, but be constructive please.

Humans arrived in the Iberian Peninsula about 42,000 years ago. The first cultures were the pre-Roman peoples such as Tartessos, the Celts, the Iberians, and more. The Phoenicians and Greeks also settled the peninsula, before the conquest of Hispania by the Romans mostly in the 3rd century BC. The Romans ruled Hispania until the collapse of the Western Roman Empire, shaping all subsequent culture in the peninsula and the Catholic Church as the dominant religion. After the collapse of the empire, the peninsula was ruled by Germanic tribes, chiefly the Visigoths, before the conquest of the Umayyad Caliphate, ushering in centuries of Muslim rule in Spain. Several Christian kingdoms emerged, which expanded gradually in a process later named Reconquista, eventually seizing all Muslim lands in the peninsula in 1492. The Spanish colonisation of the Americas began that same year. During the 16th century, Spain was the most powerful country in Europe, coinciding with the Spanish Golden Age. Spanish power declined in the 17th and 18th centuries, although the empire reached its maximum extent in the 18th century.

In the early 19th century, Spain fought Napoleon's First French Empire in the Peninsular War. After the war, King Ferdinand VII re-instated absolutism until his death in 1833. There was a succession crisis after his death, making way for the Carlist Wars, which were lost by the Carlists to the moderate liberals associated with Isabella II's branch of the Bourbon dynasty. Spain was marked by political instability and economic stagnation and during the reigns of Isabella II (1833–68), Amadeo I (1870–73), Alfonso XII (1874–85) and Alfonso XIII (1886–1931), culminating with the proclamation of the democratic and left-leaning Second Spanish Republic. Political, religious, social and regional tensions culminated in the Spanish Civil War of 1936–39, which was fought between the Republicans and the Nationalists of Francisco Franco. Franco won the war, and implemented a military dictatorship until 1975. During the latter part of the dictatorship, Spain experienced an economic boom. Economic growth and development continued after Spain became a parliamentary monarchy in 1978 and joined the European Union in 1986.

• Please note I am in no way a native speaker of English, so correct my style and grammar if needed.
• I think :@Asqueladd: 's proposal is good but it should be summarised more to make some space for contemporary history. My own draft should probably be even more summarised, and I encourage you to do so.
• Spain's most relevant time in world history was probably the Age of Discovery as this compromised the fate of an entire continent (the Americas, which would be two continents for my friends in the Anglosphere) so that should be emphasised more than other topics like the pre-Roman peoples and Roman Hispania. However Roman Hispania is also essential because it's the origin of Spanish, Catalan, Galician language and of Roman Catholicism as the traditional majority religion, but we have to make a balance if the lead is to comply with WP:LEAD.
• I think a good way of keeping information could be to add lots of footnotes ([a], [b], [c]) explaining and expanding the claims of the lead, but I really don't have time to do that right now, sorry!
• As an example of what I mean on my previous point on footnotes, the phrase: "Ferdinand VII re-instated absolutism until his death in 1833" should have a note indicating that there was a period of short liberal rule between 1820 and 1823. There are many claims like these on my draft that are very brief descriptions of events that each have intricate causes and consequences, like all historical events.
• I chose parliamentary monarchy instead of constitutional monarchy because it's a valid term in English and the term used in Spanish is monarquía parlamentaria.
• * Also "economic stagnation" under Alfonso XIII might be a stretch because Spain really grew during WW1 and the dictatorship of Miguel Primo de Rivera. I feel this might be a stretch because there was growth and industralisation even with all the war, it just was really slow compared to other parts of Western Europe.
• The last two sentences are from the Spanish Wikipedia and I think they are fair descriptions of what happened. I feel some may think I'm whitewashing the dictatorship, which I am not trying to do at all. I clearly described Franco's rule as an authoritarian dictatorship and I am not against expanding on this point. I am simply not sure if we have space to list some of the abuses under Franco, I am not against doing so at all, but I think we have to agree on what to mention, because if we are to write history from this perspective, there is a lot of authoritarianism in 19th and 20th century Spain, not just Franco.
• I think the first and second paragraphs on the current version have to merged, maybe we should just mention Spain is the fifth largest country in Europe (if I'm not mistaken), its population of has 47 million, a rough description of its location and limits. It's relevant that parts of its territory are in northern Africa, but we don't have to get into all the intricacies of the Canary and Balearic islands, Ceuta and Melilla, the topic of Gibraltar, plazas de soberanía, etc. please! Yes it's a "fun fact" that Spain is the only country sharing a land border with Africa, but when you stop and think about it, most countries have territorial "particularities" like these and it's not reasonable to use too much space for this stuff.
• I know Great Man theory has been criticised in this talk page but I disagree at least in this particular context, in my proposal I think listing the monarchs of the late 19th and early 20th century is useful for periodisation, see the Victorian, Elizabethan, Edwardian, etc. eras.
• OK so I finished writing this and now that I think about it I haven't even mentioned the Spanish-American War, the loss of Cuba and the Philippines (actually, the Philippines aren't even mentioned once in the entire lead), colonialism in Equatorial Guinea and Morocco... there is so much to cover. Prioritising is essential and I don't think the current article needs a lot of work in this regard. I am not saying my proposal is perfect.

Is it even possible to make a two-paragraph summary (as the first paragraph is area+population, and the fourth one is for culture, international relations, economics, etc.) of Roman Hispania, the Reconquista, Muslim rule in Spain, the history of the Catholic Monarchs, the colonization of the Americas, the Inquisition, Carlism, Falangism, the Second Spanish Republic, socialism and anarchism, regional identity... I don't know how to do it, but maybe pre-Roman people should not get four lines... Maybe we don't have to list 10 Spanish cities...

Again we have to pick and choose and all of this is just my personal opinion. Great Cod (talk) 11:53, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, Great Cod. I will submit a new proposal trimming some things from ancient history and perhaps accounting for the modern history. But I have a non-exhaustive critique of your proposal. "The first cultures were the pre-Roman peoples such as Tartessos, the Celts, the Iberians, and more". Tartessos is a questionable quasi-legendary "people" (the concept has features of a historiographical myth associated to essentialist visions), whose archeological findings may be simply understood as the result of the interaction of Phoenicians with native populations of the south of the peninsula (Iberians?). I'd rather prefer removing mentions to any pre-roman people altogether if the alternative were introducing moot history in the lead, to be honest. Why did you remove any mention to colonization from Ancient history, btw? It is very important!

the peninsula was ruled by Germanic tribes, chiefly the Visigoths Germanic? And the Alans (they were Iranian)? If an adjective is crucial then "non-Roman" is preferable, although imho the explicit mention to being from the other side of the border of the empire conveys the idea better. Plus the "ruled by tribes" wording can be rough. which expanded "gradually" in a process later named Reconquista, This wording "gradually", the emphasis on "process", is overtly narrative and prone to misleads. And the lack of mention to any predecessor polity (and then carelessly introducing "Spain") is problematic to say the least (it is a blind spot, really).

Spain was the most powerful country in Europe, coinciding with the Spanish Golden Age. This is actually rather wrong. To begin with, just to mention that a common "meme" vis-a-vis State formation is that the empire came first, then centuries later the nation-state country. Hence I wonder if a mention to an empire and a composite monarchy of kingdoms is not better than boasting about the "power" of a rather ghostly "country". It also mixes a purported cultural heyday in the 17th century with the 16th century. It tells limited substance, primarily a value judgement over an undertermined quality (militarily powerful? economically powerful? culturally powerful?). Much of the proposal relies too much on golden era vs. declinist perspective (a rollercoaster vision of history ingrained in nationalist teaching of history). Hence the unnecessary mention of golden era without context, detracting from the mention to pioneering role in global extractivism.

Likewise rather than the declinist perspective for "the Spanish power declined in the 17th and 18th centuries", the centralization of the monarchy (and actual State building) in the 18th century (and 19th century) is way more worthy of mention than yet another "moody" (this time down) statement. And for the more recent paragraph, I stand to my position that no mention to any individual (Isabella II (1833–68), Amadeo I (1870–73), Alfonso XII (1874–85) and Alfonso XIII (1886–1931), even Franco) is needed, no matter how challenging it sounds. Regards.--Asqueladd (talk) 13:42, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

These walls of text are forbidding to me, but I have to say that I agree with Asqueladd's points. Carlstak (talk) 15:11, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

D'oh. Re-reading myself, it indeed makes for a very challenging reading, @Carlstak:. I've tried to split in paragraphs.--Asqueladd (talk) 16:29, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, Asqueladd. I did read your comments, but the paragraphs really make it easier. ;-) Carlstak (talk) 16:41, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

This is a starting proposal for modern history (only two and a half lines yet perhaps too much of politico-military history, but here we are): "Centralisation of the administration and further State-building in mainland Spain ensued in the 18th and 19th centuries, during which the Crown saw the loss of the bulk of its American colonies in the aftermath of the Napoleonic Wars. The country veered between different political regimes; monarchy and republic, and following a 1936–39 devastating war, a fascist dictatorship that lasted until 1975."--Asqueladd (talk) 17:14, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

I have read all your proposals, and I mostly agree regarding with the 19th and 20th century. Although there are many mentions of historical names, something supposedly not correct for Wikipedia according to Asqueladd. It is no longer a problem? Therefore, (I insist) Christopher Columbus should be mentioned.

I also think it is more correct to say "Civil war" than "Devastating war" Venezia Friulano (talk) 15:27, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

I'll let you guys hash this out, but "devastating civil war" is the way to go on that point. Carlstak (talk) 00:11, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

No big issue with the addition of 'civil', it is not the only understanding of the conflict but it is certainly the most widely used.--Asqueladd (talk) 17:23, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

I submit my last proposal for the history paragraphs the lead (307 words, 2043 characters, not a single individual mentioned):

Anatomically modern humans first arrived in the Iberian Peninsula around 42,000 years ago. Pre-Roman peoples dwelled in the territory, in addition to the development of coastal trading colonies by Phoenicians and Ancient Greeks and the brief Carthaginian rule over the Mediterranean coastline. The Roman conquest and colonization of the peninsula (Hispania) ensued, bringing a cultural romanization of the population.

Hispania remained under Roman rule until the collapse of the Western Roman Empire in the fourth century, which ushered in immigration of non-Roman tribal confederations. Eventually, the Germanic Visigoths emerged as the dominant power in the peninsula by the fifth century. In the early eighth century, most of the peninsula was conquered by the Umayyad Caliphate. During early Islamic rule, Al-Andalus became the dominant peninsular power, centered in Córdoba. Several Christian kingdoms emerged in Northern Iberia, chief among them León, Castile, Aragón, Portugal, and Navarre. Over the next seven centuries, an intermittent southward expansion of these kingdoms culminated with the Christian seizure of the Emirate of Granada in 1492. Jews and Muslims were forced to choose between conversion to Catholicism or expulsion and the Morisco converts were eventually expelled. The dynastic union of the Crown of Castile and the Crown of Aragon was followed by the annexation of Navarre and the 1580 incorporation of Portugal (which ended in 1640). In the wake of the Spanish colonization of the Americas after 1492, the Crown came to hold a large overseas empire, which underpinned the emergence of a global trading system primarily fuelled by the silver extracted in the New World.

Centralisation of the administration and further State-building in mainland Spain ensued in the 18th and 19th centuries, during which the Crown saw the loss of the bulk of its American colonies in the aftermath of the Napoleonic Wars. The country veered between different political regimes; monarchy and republic, and following a 1936–39 devastating civil war, a fascist dictatorship that lasted until 1975.--Asqueladd (talk) 01:14, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Vis-à-vis this edit. the Spanish-American War, if we shed the veil of the importance of the war in terms of humilliation to the "national psyche" (that is, to the Spanish nationalist elites of the time, to which the development seemed indeed a "disaster", they named it as such, not necessarily to the common folk) and to the emergence of competing nationalisms, the aftermath of the war is perhaps not so clear/more nuanced/more mixed than Red Slash seems to pretend (it certainly does not compare to the effect in the mainland of the Napoleonic Wars or the Civil War, the same way that the "disastrous" and "costly" adjectives are more narrative-dependant than other adjectives—they arguably may cancel each other— featured in the lead). The editor, besides failing to engage adequately in the talk page, seems to frame history as a succession of wars and adquiring and losing clay. No doubt that wars often entail massive changes (and some of those conflicts are mentioned), but there are other ongoing historical processes (perhaps not so sexy, but equally if not more relevant) and we can do better than going from one battle to another in the lead (because if not, we may err on the side of warporn cruft), and, make no mistake, the currently status and the proposals are arguably too much war-focused. Not to say that, above these lines, there is a concerted effort to summarize the historical content in the lead (as in a dire need to get to the bare minimum), which Red Slash may not have noticed either.--Asqueladd (talk) 17:12, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

@Venezia Friulano: the last proposal this one reduces −1,809 from the lead while also minimally developing the late modern history (there is no late modern history development as of now). Pinging @Red Slash:, in case they want to engage constructively in the discussion.--Asqueladd (talk) 23:54, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Given relative lack of interaction, I am pulling the change, @Venezia Friulano:. If you are still up for discussion, I have no problem to returning to the prior version (but please appreciate the trimming). Also pinging @Red Slash: in case they have anything to say.--Asqueladd (talk) 22:09, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

I think that some important things in the history of Spain that have been suppressed and summarized too much. Nor do I see any mention, not even a small one, of the Spanish Transition to a Democracy and the modernization of Spain with the entry into the European Union. I think two lines ending with that would be a good thing.

Although the contemporary part was completely necessary, except for that, I think that in general this version, in my opinion, is not an significant improvement with respect to the previous one.

I have added some small nuances. However, I prefer to keep your version for now to give stability to the article and not revert your edition. Even if I don't agree completely, I appreciate your sincere effort. Venezia Friulano (talk) 8:19, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Regarding your changes [1] Not all those peoples were Germanic (the Alans were not "Germanic", but an Iranian nomadic people), I think we have already settled that, @Venezia Friulano:. I am willing to find compromise too, yet I am failing to understand why do you remove the more encompassing term "non-Roman"? Is there anything wrong with "non-Roman" (which unlike "Germanic", is valid for Visigoths, Suevi, Alans and Vandals alike)? or why do you stray from source changing "silver" to "precious metals"? Could you explain? In any case, regarding the "net improvement" please observe that this subsection is titled Lead is too long?, so a reduction in size can be a step forward.--Asqueladd (talk) 13:21, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

"Non-Roman people" is extremely ambiguous. What came to the Peninsula after the fall of the Western Roman Empire? There are many non-Roman ethnic groups both outside and within Europe. Migration in the Iberian Peninsula just after the fall of the Western Roman Empire was almost exclusive Germanic, with the only exception of the Alans. It makes no sense to use such broad and ambiguous term like non-Roman.

I have put the word "precious metals" because, although silver was the largest extraction, gold was also a highly exploited metal in colonial America, whose high price had a huge economic impact. If you want, I can add sources for it, but I think that's an obvious fact in itself.

In general terms, I think that the Lead, although it is a summary, should avoid being ambiguous and have a little more precision. Note that the average Wikipedia reader only reads the Lead. Obviously, a long and too specific Lead is not correct either. As I say, for me there is no problem with the current version, even if I don't agree with some things. Venezia Friulano (talk) 11:15, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Look, the important bit is that those people originated in the other side of the līmes. Do you have a reason (ie: quality sources) to consider the historical notability of Vandals and Suevi in the Iberian Peninsula as most important than Iranian Alans' (Visigoths are mentioned later)? If not, deeming a group of peoples as "Germanic" when they were not is being being inaccurate for the sake of it.--Asqueladd (talk) 16:05, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Apparently Spain never lost its empire

My attempt to introduce a small bit of reality into the lede has been reverted. Currently, the lead talks about the rise of Spain to pre-eminence on a global scale, then abruptly jumps to the present status of Spain as a developed country. I will now quote verbatim from the lede:

" In the wake of the Spanish colonization of the Americas, the Crown came to hold a large overseas empire, which underpinned the emergence of a global trading system primarily fuelled by the silver extracted in the New World.[19]

Spain is a developed country, a secular parliamentary democracy and a constitutional monarchy,[20] with King Felipe VI as head of state."

...

Bruh. A reader who does not already know about Spain will assume that the Spanish Empire still exists, extracting silver from the New World as we speak. This needs to change. Red Slash 19:03, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

introduce a small bit of reality Whoah, how edgy. Apparently, @Red Slash: it's sad that you still fail to engage in the talk above, which may address some of your concerns as one proposal states that "18th and 19th centuries, during which the Crown saw the loss of the bulk of its American colonies in the aftermath of the Napoleonic Wars". Are you better than the rest of editors? You don't want to dirty yourself engaging with an ongoing discussion? Bruh.--Asqueladd (talk) 23:24, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Hello @Red Slash. When discussing about Spain you have to be aware that there are political commissars that takes care that nothing dirts the nationalist ideal of it. Carmallola (talk) 16:55, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

References

Incorrect caption under the population pyramid

Chart in question goes up to 2015, meanwhile the caption lists it as going up to 2014. Minozen (talk) 17:27, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Etymologies

Why do so many editors apparently think that, when it comes to etymology, it's fine to quote 3rd, 16th or even 19th century sources as being somehow on par with modern ones, as if all of these were just guesses where one is as good as any other? 90% of the ideas mentioned in the section are clearly folk etymologies or outdated and weird ideas of some random fellow in the 19th century, and the more or less normal and standard views are buried among these. 79.100.144.23 (talk) 01:08, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Why has the dating style been altered

This page was written using the standard dating style of BC/AD. For some reason most of the page has been randomly changed to BCE/CE. This seems unnecessary and is potentially an act of vandalism, one which introduces a needless despite to the page. Also Wikipedia guidelines are that the style shouldn't be arbitrarily changed. Suggesting that it be changed back. 2A00:23C8:2D00:EA01:1919:3DC6:384:2790 (talk) 16:37, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

I can't see nothing in the recent history (CC) Tbhotch^™ 17:19, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Can you point out when this happened? Any WP:DIFFs? Largoplazo (talk) 23:00, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

The lead still sucks so I re-wrote it

The topic I raised has led on the lead to very long and interesting discussions on many issues. This has led to much historiographical and even political stuff related to nationalism, that doesn't lead to what I wanted to achieve with the original post.

Of course not all of it was like that, I agreed with a lot, although not all, of the comments and criticisms of @Asqueladd @Venezia Friulano, @Carlstak and @Red Slash.

But some of it was simply not related to Wikipedia. I suggest we avoid it here and raise it somewhere else.

I still think the key issue has not been solved: the lead takes way too long to get to the key points.

I see this happens a lot on some Spain related articles for some reason. Long paragraphs suck to read, compare this article lead with much more complex and general topics like Quantum mechanics or Biology. Maybe it has to do with some stuff being directly translated from Spanish culture and not properly WP:GLOBALIZED or even reviewed by anyone who is qualified.

A summary of what I think: it is not the purpose of the lead to discuss historiographical debates over the legacy of this and that, as this discourse exists regarding every country and civilization that has ever existed. I still included some of this, but you are welcome to cut that crap if you can do it. There is absolutely no point in saying that Spanish is the 14th largest this and the 26th that and that it is a member of the UN, wow, just like all the other countries in the world! Well, I guess technically the Vatican City is an observer state... so it's relevant? Really? No point listing 10 cities either. While the regional languages are not mentioned even once!

Also there is no point saying it's a developed country, an advanced economy and a high-income country, which is basically the same point, yes I know it's technically not the same thing, but it's a re-formulation of the same idea.

I welcome any and all improvements and criticisms of my version, but don't tear every single phrase apart because I don't have time to argue over why I chose specific wording. If you can write a better lead just do it. The autonomous communities are worth mentioning. I have other stuff to do than read Wikipedia page talks, and I hope you do as well. On the wording "Reconquista", just because something is a historical construct doesn't mean that it can't be used in an encyclopedia. I'm no historian but I would even say that historical constructs are very much real, even if as concepts in the collective mind. Reconquista is a generally recognized term I think, like race or other topics, its very essence can be a subject of debate.

Also I don't have time to source all of this right now but I feel like it's mostly faithful to reality and if the lead were to be replaced we should source it all beforehand. If something is contrary to fact just source and change it. BTW I'm not sure if Gibraltar can be considered an enclave (for example I feel like Gibraltar is worth mentioning, but we should avoid writing 4 sentences on the Gibraltar dispute, territorial disputes exists in a lot of the major countries and it is not a major dispute like China/Taiwan or whatever). Bceause we could do this on many points like Reconquista, the Spanish Empire, the Inquisition, the civil wars of the 19th century, or the Spanish Civil War, or Franco, maybe Hispania? Why not the monarchy, the different ruling houses, republicanism? Where should we put the focus? BTW ultimately I think we should avoid this stuff and focus on describing contemporary Spain. Spanish politics, like Italian politics, are too complicated.

On the Catholicism thing yes I know Spain is super secular these days, but that is something worth stating as there are many topics such as Christmas and Holy Week, all the San and Santa, history, that is the traditional influence. Also Latin has also influenced Basque to a very large degree so yeah, it is the entire peninsula. Also Germanic is a more recognizable term than Visigoth, if one clicks it sends you to the Visigoth Spain article, Germanic shows the point that there is also non-Latin/Roman influence, and I think al Andalus speaks for itself. You don't have to agree.

Pre-Roman peoples and Tartessos aren't relevant enough to get to the lead. I think Spain being one of the world's most immigrated-to countries is more relevant.

The Kingdom of Spain, commonly known as Spain, is a country mostly located in the Iberian Peninsula of Europe with parts of territory in North Africa. Its territory also includes the Balearic and Canary Islands. The country is bordered by France and Andorra to the north, by Portugal to the west and by Morocco to the south in Ceuta and Melilla, as well as Gibraltar, which is part of the United Kingdom and claimed by Spain. The capital and largest city is Madrid, one of the largest cities in Europe.

Modern humans arrived in the Iberian Peninsula 42,000 years ago, followed by a diversity of cultures developing in the region. Ancient Rome is a significant foundation of modern Spain, with the entire peninsula being influenced by the Latin language and Roman Catholicism. Spanish history has been shaped by Germanic rule, al-Andalus and the ensuing Reconquista. In 1492, the voyages of Christopher Columbus led to the colonization of the Americas as the Spanish Empire became one of the world’s most powerful countries. Spanish power waned in the 18th and 19th centuries due to war, economic hardship and instability. Today, Spain is generally considered a middle power that retains influence in Western Europe and Latin America.

Spain is a developed country and a constitutional monarchy, with King Felipe VI as head of state. It has one of the longest life expectancies in the world at 83.5 years in 2019, generally ranking high in healthcare, education, safety and quality of life. Spain is also a major tourist centre and a popular immigration destination, with 7.3 million foreigners in 2021, mainly from Latin America, North Africa and Western Europe.

Spain is a member of major international organizations such as NATO, the European Union and the OECD, and it hosts the headquarters of the Organization of Ibero-American States. It holds a permanent invitation to the G20. Spain is divided in 17 autonomous communities, some of which have regional languages such as Catalan, Basque or Galician.

Alcismo (talk) 20:43, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Spain and UK

How are Spain working with the UK and the other country’s that help people with pore zero water. 2A02:C7F:602B:B500:A475:AF1A:F01C:A0FC (talk) 07:26, 15 October 2022 (UTC)