Jump to content

Talk:Omar Khayyam: Difference between revisions

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Browse history interactively
← Previous editNext edit →
Content deleted Content added
VisualWikitext
GreenC bot (talk | contribs)
Bots
2,310,961 edits
Line 73: Line 73:
::::::I recommend neither Persian, Iranian, or Khorasani. None of these are nationalities of Khayyam's time. I recommend the article be returned to:
::::::I recommend neither Persian, Iranian, or Khorasani. None of these are nationalities of Khayyam's time. I recommend the article be returned to:
:::::*"''Ghiyāth al-Dīn Abū al-Fatḥ ʿUmar ibn Ibrāhīm Nīsābūrī(18 May 1048 – 4 December 1131), commonly known as Omar Khayyam (Persian: عمر خیّام), was a polymath, mathematician, astronomer, historian, philosopher, and poet.''" --[[User:Kansas Bear|Kansas Bear]] ([[User talk:Kansas Bear|talk]]) 16:34, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
:::::*"''Ghiyāth al-Dīn Abū al-Fatḥ ʿUmar ibn Ibrāhīm Nīsābūrī(18 May 1048 – 4 December 1131), commonly known as Omar Khayyam (Persian: عمر خیّام), was a polymath, mathematician, astronomer, historian, philosopher, and poet.''" --[[User:Kansas Bear|Kansas Bear]] ([[User talk:Kansas Bear|talk]]) 16:34, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
:::::*:Hi again. I would like to know your arguments against using the [[demonym]] of [[Greater Khorasan|Khorasani]] instead of [[Iranian peoples|Persian]] in the lead section. ([[MOS:FIRSTBIO]] clearly states that usually "nationality" should be mentioned so I recommend this word as a form of replacement for the word "Persian" which might also refer to ethnicity.) The consensus seems to be to not use the word Persian @[[User:LouisAragon|LouisAragon]] (My previous argument was that it is used for referring to nationality and not ethnicity). I recommend this because I think that [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view|wp:weight]] is not considered in the current lead section of this article. In according to the historical context of Khayyam, he was born in [[Nishapur]] which is itself historically a part of a region called [[Greater Khorasan|Khorasan]] ([[Abbasid Revolution]] was ignited in Khorasan). The current lead is vague, and the clear identity of Khayyam remains a guessing game for the reader. At the time of Khayyam Khorasan was an important region politicly due to the de jure rule of [[Abbasid Caliphate|Abbasid caliphs]] with Arab [[Caliphate|Khalifs]]. Khorasani people have had a great importance at the time of Khayyam in the political tensions of the time. I recommend using the demonym of Khorasani for Khayaam. This demonym will also not refer to any specific ethnicity and it should be of no dispute. @[[User:LouisAragon|LouisAragon]] @[[User:HistoryofIran|HistoryofIran]] [[User:Ehsanbasafa|Ehsanbasafa]] ([[User talk:Ehsanbasafa|talk]]) 11:20, 8 December 2022 (UTC)


{{reflist-talk}}
{{reflist-talk}}

Revision as of 11:20, 8 December 2022

Template:Vital article

Pupils

User:Telementor: I have removed the line that says: "For decades, he also taught the philosophy of Avicenna in Nishapur". Khayyam was known to dislike teaching. There are a few figures alleged to have studied with him (Al-Khazini, Nizami Aruzi of Samarcand, and Ayn al-Quzat Hamadani). But it is purely conjectural if they had been pupils of his.

dab: You were right to remove the "for decades" bit, as it was not properly referenced. But then you go on to state "Khayyam was known to dislike teaching" -- please, again, tell us on whose authority we are told this. Then suddenly you become critical and question the reliability of the tradition naming his students. Well, ok, but you cannot be selective in being sceptical of medieval tradition just when it fits whatever you wish to emphasize. Question this tradition as "conjectural", but apply the same standard to the tradition that he was "disliked by Sufis".

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 13:35, 8 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Name

See Talk:Omar#Correct_spelling_of_the_name. Onceinawhile (talk) 08:01, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Heliocentrism mistranslation, OR, and citogenesis

I've removed a passage claiming that Omar Khayyam's association with heliocentrism stemmed from a mistranslation of FItzgerald [1]. In reading the two citations, I found that one was simply text of the poetry (along with some general discussion of Fitzgerald's poetic liberties), while the other (Olson) was not about mistaken heliocentrism, but rather Fitzgerald's translation incorrectly alluding to zodiacal light with the phrase "false dawn" (a mistranslation of the Persian Sahari). Looking to the original edit [2], I found that the Olson source was simply used to substantiate the idea that Fitzgerald's translations were often anachronistic, and only later was the citation moved to support the statement as a whole. The claim that Omar Khayyam's association with heliocentrism stemmed from the quoted passage of poetry is not supported anywhere, and appears to have been supposition on the part of the original editor. Unfortunately, I did find a number of websites written since 2012 which now repeat the claim using similar language, so future editors should be wary of possible citogenesis. Darth Coracle (talk) 23:05, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Moving the ethnicity

I am struggling to find a way to rewrite the ethnicity into the first paragraph in Life section.

"Omar Khayyam was born in 1048 in Nishapur, of Persian ancestry. Nishapur, was a leading metropolis during medieval times under the Seljuq dynasty and had been a major center of the Zoroastrian religion, and it is likely that Khayyam's father was a Zoroastrian who had converted to Islam."

Thoughts?

I had thought about;

  • "Omar Khayyam was born,of Zoroastrian Persian ancestry, in Nishapur in 1048. Nishapur, was a leading metropolis during medieval times under the Seljuq dynasty and had been a major center of the Zoroastrian religion."

Thoughts? Kansas Bear (talk) 02:46, 10 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]


I did a rewrite, still not happy with the flow or wording. Any ideas would be appreciated.

P.S. The IP owes me two six-packs of Guinness Foreign Extra Stout. --Kansas Bear (talk) 02:57, 10 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]


I am going to move some sentences around, so if I lose or misplace a reference or two, please add them back. Thanks. --Kansas Bear (talk) 03:02, 10 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, the people they are related to is mentioned on the lead section (first paragraph) of articles such as Ibn al-Haytham, William Shakespeare, Avicenna and Napoleon. The word "Persian" (historically) does not necessarily refer to the ethnicity of the person. It refers to being part of the Iranian people.[1](or according to Merriam-Webster [2]: Meaning of "Persian": "one of the ancient Iranians who under Cyrus and his successors founded an empire in southwest Asia

b: a member of one of the peoples forming the modern Iranian nationality") MOS:FIRSTBIO clearly states that usually "nationality" should be mentioned. His religion is also of dispute so I changed it to Khorasani on the life section. Ehsanbasafa (talk) 07:20, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Persian is not a nationality and therefore should not be in the lead.--Kansas Bear (talk) 02:10, 12 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The word "Persian" does refer to nationality. Please read the previous and the current sources I mentioned. Merriam-Webster: "b: a member of one of the peoples forming the modern Iranian nationality". Iran has always been called Persia throughout history in the Western world. Up until 1935[3] in English, historical sources have always referred to Iran as Persia.[4] This article is about a historic person and not a contemporary one. According to the article Persians on the Wikipedia itself "In historical contexts, especially in English, "Persian" may be defined more loosely (often as a national identity) to cover all subjects of the ancient Persian polities, regardless of their ethnic background....
Although Persis (Persia proper) was only one of the provinces of ancient Iran,[3] varieties of this term (e.g., Persia) were adopted through Greek sources and used as an exonym for all of the Persian Empire for many years.[4] Thus, especially in the Western world, the names Persia and Persian came to refer to all of Iran and its subjects.[4][5]
Some medieval and early modern Islamic sources also used cognates of the term Persian to refer to various Iranian peoples and languages, including the speakers of Khwarazmian,[6] Mazanderani,[7] and Old Azeri.[8] 10th-century Iraqi historian Al-Masudi refers to Pahlavi, Dari, and Azari as dialects of the Persian language.[9] In 1333, medieval Moroccan traveler and scholar Ibn Battuta referred to the Afghans of Kabul as a specific sub-tribe of the Persians.[10] Lady Mary (Leonora Woulfe) Sheil, in her observation of Iran during the Qajar era, states that the Kurds and the Leks would consider themselves as belonging to the race of the "old Persians".[11]
On 21 March 1935, former king of Iran Reza Shah of the Pahlavi dynasty issued a decree asking the international community to use the term Iran, the native name of the country, in formal correspondence. However, the term Persian is still historically used to designate the predominant population of the Iranian peoples living in the Iranian cultural continent.[12][13]" Ehsanbasafa (talk) 08:26, 12 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
At historic times when a Persian Empire, such as the Achaemenid one, was extant, one could refer to the denizens of said empire as "Persian", i.e.: Persian commanders, soldiers, scribes, etc., as if it were a nationality, but in the context of being born into the Seljuk Empire, it become a bit more murky. Persian in this context is more of a ethnicity or supposed identity, since in many sources it is unclear whether the sources imply Persian ancestry or simply that Khayyan spoke and wrote principally in Persian, which is the more indisputable information. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:44, 12 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, your argument is on point and I have no further arguments to make. If the consensuses is that the word "Persian" should not be used, then I recommend using the words "Khorasani" or "Iranian". Ehsanbasafa (talk) 15:31, 12 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I recommend neither Persian, Iranian, or Khorasani. None of these are nationalities of Khayyam's time. I recommend the article be returned to:
  • "Ghiyāth al-Dīn Abū al-Fatḥ ʿUmar ibn Ibrāhīm Nīsābūrī(18 May 1048 – 4 December 1131), commonly known as Omar Khayyam (Persian: عمر خیّام), was a polymath, mathematician, astronomer, historian, philosopher, and poet." --Kansas Bear (talk) 16:34, 12 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Hi again. I would like to know your arguments against using the demonym of Khorasani instead of Persian in the lead section. (MOS:FIRSTBIO clearly states that usually "nationality" should be mentioned so I recommend this word as a form of replacement for the word "Persian" which might also refer to ethnicity.) The consensus seems to be to not use the word Persian @LouisAragon (My previous argument was that it is used for referring to nationality and not ethnicity). I recommend this because I think that wp:weight is not considered in the current lead section of this article. In according to the historical context of Khayyam, he was born in Nishapur which is itself historically a part of a region called Khorasan (Abbasid Revolution was ignited in Khorasan). The current lead is vague, and the clear identity of Khayyam remains a guessing game for the reader. At the time of Khayyam Khorasan was an important region politicly due to the de jure rule of Abbasid caliphs with Arab Khalifs. Khorasani people have had a great importance at the time of Khayyam in the political tensions of the time. I recommend using the demonym of Khorasani for Khayaam. This demonym will also not refer to any specific ethnicity and it should be of no dispute. @LouisAragon @HistoryofIran Ehsanbasafa (talk) 11:20, 8 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ adjective: Persian relating to ancient Persia or modern Iran or its people or language. (Source:Oxford Languages)
  2. ^ https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Persian
  3. ^ Wilson, Arnold (2012). "The Middle Ages: Fars". The Persian Gulf (RLE Iran A). Routledge. p. 71. ISBN 978-1136841057.
  4. ^ a b Axworthy, Michael (2017). Iran: What Everyone Needs to Know. Oxford University Press. p. 16. ISBN 978-0190232962.
  5. ^ Xavier de Planhol (24 January 2012). "FĀRS i. Geography". Encyclopædia Iranica. Vol. IX. pp. ?–336. The name of Fārs is undoubtedly attested in Assyrian sources since the third millennium B.C.E. under the form Parahše. Originally, it was the "land of horses" of the Sumerians (Herzfeld, pp. 181-82, 184-86). The name was adopted by Iranian tribes which established themselves there in the 9th century B.C.E. in the west and southwest of Urmia lake. The Parsua (Pārsa) are mentioned there for the first time in 843 B.C.E., during the reign of Salmanassar III, and then, after they migrated to the southeast (Boehmer, pp. 193-97), the name was transferred, between 690 and 640, to a region previously called Anšan (q.v.) in Elamite sources (Herzfeld, pp. 169-71, 178-79, 186). From that moment the name acquired the connotation of an ethnic region, the land of the Persians, and the Persians soon thereafter founded the vast Achaemenid empire. A never-ending confusion thus set in between a narrow, limited, geographical usage of the term—Persia in the sense of the land where the aforesaid Persian tribes had shaped the core of their power—and a broader, more general usage of the term to designate the much larger area affected by the political and cultural radiance of the Achaemenids. The confusion between the two senses of the word was continuous, fueled by the Greeks who used the name Persai to designate the entire empire.
  6. ^ For example, Al-Biruni, a native speaker of Khwarezmian, refers to "the people of Khwarizm" as "a branch of the Persian tree". See: Al-Biruni (2001). Al-Athar al-Baqiyya 'an al-Qurun al-Khaliyya [The Remaining Signs of Past Centuries]. Tehran: Miras-e Maktub. p. 56. و أما أهل خوارزم، و إن کانوا غصنا ً من دوحة الفُرس (...). (Translation: "The people of Khwarizm, they are a branch of the Persian tree.")
  7. ^ The language used in Marzbān-nāma was, in the words of the 13th-century historian Sa'ad ad-Din Warawini, "the language of Ṭabaristan and old, ancient Persian (fārsī-yi ḳadīm-i bāstān)". See: Kramers, J.H. (2007). "Marzbān-Nāma". In Bearman, P.; Bianqui, Th.; Bosworth, C.E.; van Donzel, E.; Heinrichs, W.P. (eds.). Encyclopaedia of Islam. Brill. Retrieved 18 November 2007.
  8. ^ 10th-century Arab Muslim writer Ibn Hawqal, in his Ṣūrat al-Arḍ, refers to "the language of the people of Azerbaijan and most of the people of Armenia" as al-fāresīya. Yarshater, E. (18 August 2011). "AZERBAIJAN vii. The Iranian Language of Azerbaijan". Encyclopædia Iranica. Vol. III. pp. 238–245.
  9. ^ Al Mas'udi (1894). De Goeje, M.J. (ed.). Kitab al-Tanbih wa-l-Ishraf (in Arabic). Brill. pp. 77–78.
  10. ^ Ibn Battuta (2004). Travels in Asia and Africa, 1325-1354. Routledge. p. 180. ISBN 0-415-34473-5. We travelled on to Kabul, formerly a vast town, the site of which is now occupied by a village inhabited by a tribe of Persians called Afghans. They hold mountains and defiles and possess considerable strength, and are mostly highwaymen. Their principal mountain is called Kuh Sulayman. It is told that the prophet Sulayman [Solomon] ascended this mountain and having looked out over India, which was then covered with darkness, returned without entering it.
  11. ^ Sheil, Lady Mary Leonora Woulfe (1856). Glimpses of Life and Manners in Persia. J. Murray. p. 394.
  12. ^ "Persian". Merriam-Webster. 13 August 2010. Retrieved 10 June 2012.
  13. ^ Bausani, Alessandro (1971). The Persians, from the Earliest Days to the Twentieth Century. Elek. ISBN 978-0-236-17760-8.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Omar_Khayyam&oldid=1126262016"