Talk:Muhammad

One click to the Pic

Hi, I'm the guy who posted sometime back about the veiled pic. The discussion changed to one of silhouetting the image, which I think misses the point. In my understanding, after reading this debate, most of the issue is about whether or not the image(s) should be here at all. If the images are not included on the main page, or filled with solid black fields, then a casual observer could click on the image and see the picture. This puts the image one click away. I don't understand why this wouldn't be done. Silhouettes change the representation of the image, which rings of censorship (whether people agree or not.) To have "No Image" but make them immediately accessible seems to me to solve everyone's problem. (Except for the people who don't believe any rep. of M. is okay, but they will never be happy with anything on this page as far as I can tell.) This at least limits the "accidental exposure" to the image. I'll listen off-air :-) Menkatopia 18:29, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

It is very unencyclopedic to modify images in that way. This is not a bowdlerized encyclopedia. ^HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 18:40, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I think it can work, given that we do not have that image on top. There is no policy regarding bowdlerized and wikipedia is censored (see my arguments on mediation Some Censored pages. --- ALM 18:51, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks ALM, but you are wrong. bowdlerizing is a form of censorship, and WP:NOT#Wikipedia_is_not_censored. You cannot say a policy does not exist by finding examples of where you don't think it is being applied. If you think the policy is being broken, address that, but don't say the policy does not exist. ^HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 18:55, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Specifically from WP:NOT#Wikipedia_is_not_censored: "Wikipedia cannot guarantee that articles or images are tasteful to all users or adhere to specific social or religious norms or requirements" ^HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 18:56, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

To do this would be to treat Muhammad's article differently to that of any other major historical figure. If our readers feel that the article has been censored for religious reasons, they will cease to trust whatever else it says. TharkunColl 18:58, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia may contain content that some readers consider objectionable or offensive. Anyone reading Wikipedia can edit an article and the changes are displayed instantaneously without any checking to ensure appropriateness, so Wikipedia cannot guarantee that articles or images are tasteful to all users or adhere to specific social or religious norms or requirements. While obviously inappropriate content (such as an irrelevant link to a shock site) is usually removed immediately, some articles may include objectionable text, images, or links if they are relevant to the content (such as the article about pornography) and provided they do not violate any of our existing policies (especially Neutral point of view), nor the law of the U.S. state of Florida, where Wikipedia's servers are hosted.' - is why there's no child porn, as far as I can tell, none of your other claims actually have examples of censorship. For what it's worth, blasphamey is certainly not censored. WilyD 19:00, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how this violates your sense of "encyclopediadness." the point is not to remove the image from WP, but to show we are sensitive to the surprise some may feel at being shown this, and giving others a way to see the images if they choose. Maybe you could explain why this solution is unfair? Menkatopia 19:01, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Surprise? You go to an encyclopedia, look up a person, and see a picture of that person and you are surprised? What would you expect to see? We try to have a picture for every subject we can. ^HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 19:03, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Just read Wily's comment. I can see how this would be taken as censorship, but I think making the pics easily accesible would answer that complaint. Menkatopia 19:04, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Those comments aren't Wily's, only the last two sentences are. The first part is part a quote from our core policy What Wikipedia is not. ^HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 19:07, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me, I am not surprised, nor am I the issue. But, as this is a sensitive issue for some, and cause us a lot of trouble rv'ing abuse, this seemed like a solution that would be viable to unlock the page. We were encouraged to think outside the box (see above) and that is what I attempted to do. If you are asking me, personally, I would love nothing more than to have this image front and center in the article, but as it is vandalized repeatedly, making it a click away might slow action in that arena. Maybe, High in BC, you can try to ignore what you think is my motive and look at the result. Thank you. Menkatopia 19:10, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

There are many, many articles that suffer from constant vandalism. To use this as a reason for removing content, is to let the vandals win. TharkunColl 19:12, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I really am, to keep jumping in, but I wanted to point out the misuse of the term Bowdlerize. I am not suggesting we remove the image from anyone willing to click on a box, just from the top level of the page. And they are not terrorists, I am suggesting taking away the bait. Menkatopia 19:14, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

This idea has been brought up and rejected over and over. This article get no more vandalism than regular articles of this importance. The page is protected because long standing editors are edit warring. I don't attribute any motive to you. I also did not mean for my response to mean just you. I don't see why anyone would be surprised when they looked up Muhammad in a non-Muslim encyclopedia and saw Muhammad. ^HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 19:15, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

What exactly do you mean "bait"? ^HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 19:16, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Comparable suggestions come up in every article that's vandalised every day (I myself watch a few.) They never fly. Because it's pretty much a comprimising of the article, which just works against everything we're trying to do. I watch a few articles that are vandalised every day - it's part of the job. WilyD 19:21, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I meant, by bait, that by making the image, in essense, a click away, then there would be one less thing to vandalize on this page. I know this page doesn't get substantially more or less vandalism than other controversial topics, but this might be a way to deflate their effort. As was mentioned with Harry Truman's S, it is such a constant target, taking it off the main page, yet making EXPLICIT the link and it's connection to the content would, in my estimation, limit this particular subject of vandalism. I do not agree that doing this "let's the terrorists win" or some other Cheney-ism. It isn't that simple. But making it clear that we want this image available, do not want to offend either side's sensibilities on the matter, I think we satisfy both camps. Now, my boss is going to put me in a pair of cement shows if I don't get back to work. :-) Menkatopia 19:23, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Why I cannot edit the article

Hi, Why I cannot edit the article ? --- SciAndTech 21:53, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

• It's temporarily locked due to an edit war. WilyD 22:39, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Why no obvious link to Talk:Muhammad/Mediation

If the page is at all important to the resolution of this mess, there ought to be a prominent link at start of this page. If instead people feel that page is embarrassing I can see why there's no link.

The page Talk:Muhammad/Mediation was started 19:25, 2 November 2006. I'd say almost four months with no resolution or apparent hope of one is a verdict on that effort. When does this go before the community as a whole? I really think the list of options must get put up before a larger, hopefully more dispassionate, audience and just get decided. Shenme 02:32, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I'll add the link to the top of this page. --Sefringle 03:00, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Normally mediation is geared towards individuals who were involved in a conflict. The way the mediation process works, parties needing mediation must all agree to undergo and abide by it so if a link is provided to the mediation case then it should be clear that it is not particularly meant for additional parties to join. (→Netscott) 03:06, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

User:Alim777

"User:Alim777," whose only edits to Wikipedia have been to remove depictions of Muhammad (first on Jyllands Posten, now here) and add the title "Prophet" to mentions of his name, has just removed a depiction, immediately after the article was unprotected.[1]Proabivouac 19:44, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Report him at WP:AIV as a vandalism-only account. --Hojimachong^talk 19:46, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

i don't know about this user, but i endorse the removal as per my comments above. ITAQALLAH 19:48, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I think Aminz's idea that during the mediation process it would be fair to have the image be on again off again. There's no denying that the image has been displayed in a locked state for weeks. Since mediation is still continuing and a final decision hasn't been reached would it not be a good faith gesture to leave the image off for some time? (→Netscott) 19:50, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

That doesn't change the fact that the user is probably a sock, and his only edits have been trolling, vandalism, or edit-warring. --Hojimachong^talk 19:52, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

there is nothing about his latest edit, nor his other contributions, which strike me as malicious "vandalism" per se. which is why he has been given a test warning. furthermore, i see no trolling or edit-warring. ITAQALLAH 20:02, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Netscott, I don't know. As the German and Spanish Wikipedias have still more depictions, and as the edit-warring has been constant, a good case can be made that the last version was already an incompletely censored version, yet some have proposed "compromises" splitting the remaining difference (e.g. one or two depictions) premised upon the idea that possession is 9/10th of the law. I have little doubt that someone say, "someone removed it during mediation, and the world didn't come to an end/no one seemed to care," pointing to the stability of the page (if it's allowed to be) after this move as proof that it is the right "compromise." Conversely, the willingness of aniconists to disruptively edit-war has always been their strongest argument.Proabivouac 19:58, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Umm, I unblocked him (leaving a message with the blocking admin). Even malicious vandalism doesn't get you blocked after one warning and he, at least, didn't add "penis" to every page he could see as is ever so popular. I explained to him the situation about why it's a bad idea to change images so... if he does it again a block may be in order. But, the first time is a little harsh considering we really don't know if he's privy to these conversations. I hadn't see this section when I did it, but, if he does something again tell me. gren グレン 04:50, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Transclusion of images

(split from above discussion)

Well it is disruptive to other editors who want to edit in other areas of this article not related to imagery to constantly be finding it in locked state. My thinking is in the direction of, "What can we do to avoid edit warring during mediation so that the article can be improved irregardless of the question of images of Muhammad?". (→Netscott) 20:04, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

If any particular editor is going to reintroduce the lead image can it be done via this transclusion? → {{:Muhammad/lead image}} with a little disclaimer that the transclusion should not be removed from the article but its contents edited directly there? (→Netscott) 20:11, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I was thinking a transclusion like this might be a good idea, from a practical/technical standpoint. Is there any problem with transcluding content in articles? Tom Harrison ^Talk 20:37, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Basically all images that show Muhammad could be done via transclusion with the agreed upon principle that directly removing the transclusions would be viewed as disruption. Then if editors want to bicker and be dispruptive about such images this disruption can be limited to the transclusions. I don't think there's any particular policy prohibiting transcluding content. The only caveat is that doing this would be a bit exceptional in the grand scheme of Wikipedia. My thinking is just to limit the disruption to a limited area temporarily at least until some sort of a consensus about these images and/or the mediation concludes. (→Netscott) 20:42, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Umm, when has a technological 'solution' ever fixed a sociological/political/religious problem? Unless you can protect the area that contains the transclusion request, it won't be protected, and the changes will continue. Even if you define that altering the transclusion and its page is a 'no-no', that won't have altered the current situation where pictures are included, which already is a 'no-no' in so many minds. 'Playing' with 'no-no's is just playing. And the mediation has been going on for four months... Shenme 21:22, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm saying let the image related changes happen only on the transcluded part. That way if disruption returns surrounding the images the disruption can be limited to just the transclusions. (→Netscott) 21:26, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm unclear how this would help. Does this somehow allow people who don't like seeing Muhammad automatically block such pictures? Frotz661 21:32, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

There are people who want to edit on this article on things unrelated to images. This "image war" has been going on for awhile and it is disruptive. I'm proposing that images of Muhammad be transcluded onto the article with an ad-hoc rule that if editors remove the transclusions doing so will be viewed as disruptive and they can be blocked for it. This way if editors want to fight back and forth on the sole idea of images of Muhammad they can do so only via the transclusions and not directly on the article itself... thereby non-image centric editors can continue on improving the article. (→Netscott) 21:56, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

This sounds good. Why did you remove the leading image? I can't see what you're referring to in your justification. Frotz661 22:21, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Um, you just now put an empty template there, so I filled it with the leading image and caption. That should have been okay, but you removed that template reference in favor of the old inline approach. I don't think using a template like that would have been controversial in the slightest. Frotz661 23:05, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I think it is worth giving the template a try. I'll watch Muhammad/lead image, and edit that if I want to change anything. Tom Harrison ^Talk 00:04, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I like it, we can keep the main article unprotected that way. ^HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 00:07, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't very insistent in my little <!-- note --> so if someone else wants to word that a bit more insistently (maybe with a small mediation explanation) by all means please do so. (→Netscott) 00:15, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

For those not aware of it please note that there is discussion about the lead image here: Talk:Muhammad/lead image. (→Netscott) 02:10, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but this is just plain silly. If there is an edit war, it will never be confined to another image. For example, if the image is locked, then people will edit the main article to revert to their version. A second article does not help.

I don't think the transclusion should ever be locked myself so long as people abide by WP:3RR. It is just a nightmare to have sockpuppet IPs and the like come in and edit war over this on the main article page and ruin editing for everyone else. (→Netscott) 04:06, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

If people who otherwise disagree about the images agree about the transclusion, at least we can keep this page unlocked. Tom Harrison ^Talk 04:10, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but you guys are living in a dream world. 90% of the problem here are random edits by people demanding no images. When they see an image of Muhammad, they instantly hit edit and remove the image. You don't honestly think such people will be willing to go to a second page, and edit that.. when the whole goal is to allow easy reversion?!

We have people coming in, and placing religious sayings such as "peace be upon him" throughout the whole article. We have people coming on, and changing anything that does not appear 100% religious, to a fully dogmated article. Catering to such people won't help, and showing such a sign of weakness isn't going to help either.

I liked the idea at first, assuming it might work(naive). However, it does not seem to be reducing the disruption to the article. ^HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 04:32, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

This disruption is stemming from the Canadian editor Bbarnett (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) utilizing sock IPs to avoid 3RR. Read his talk page and you'll understand why he's doing that. (→Netscott) 04:34, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

It seems to be creating more problems than it is solving, and has caused quite the edit war the last several hours. --Hojimachong^talk 04:35, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

One editor utilizing sockpuppet IPs making disruption... again read User talk:Bbarnett who vowed to keep the image on the article regardless of 3RR. (→Netscott) 04:36, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't get it - what the point (for anyone) of attacking the transclusion?Proabivouac 04:37, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Blind determination? ^HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 04:38, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I am strongly opposed because I can see no logic behind it, except that it will create more work. Now, some people might edit the second article with the image, and others will just edit the Muhammad article. Some will edit both. Locking the image article will instantly lead to vandalism of the original article.

All three IPs are from Canada (one specifically tracks back to Montreal). Review Bbarnett's edits and see his Canada centric editing (Bloc Quebequois, etc.) (→Netscott) 04:41, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Tom Harrison ^Talk 04:42, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Good call, Netscott.[2]

Bbarnett, what are you thinking? There's no point at all in attacking the transclusion.Proabivouac 04:49, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, there is. As I've stated, it's quite detrimental to the article. It creates two articles to edit and repair instead of one, yet it provides absolutely no benefits. In each case that someone claims it provides a benefit, I can provide logic that it does not. It will duplicate edit warring, yet prevent no warring.

Hehe, nice. Nothing like a sockpuppet responding (and thereby confirming) to a question posed to his sockpuppeteer account. (→Netscott) 04:57, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh no! You know I've been using IPs to anon edit! This was determined, what... two hours ago? Clearly I am not overtly concerned, or I would not have edited with my bbarnett login when anon editing came into play. Regardless of this, I still fail to see how this misguided change will help with anything.

It's stated in WP:3RR that 3RR applies per person, not per user. If you're socking (which you've admitted), you're breaking that guideline. --Hojimachong^talk 05:06, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

What IP editor is going to be making an edit to the little boondock town of Aylmer, Quebec [3] that editor Bbarnett (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)'s going to be editing on himself? (→Netscott) 05:02, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Erm. Yehaw, that makes lots of sense. You're right, we should all start to purposefully damage pages that everyone here has worked on, because you (netscott) can't keep your hands off of a page in mediation. That's a great idea. I guess I should start to do something incredibly complex and difficult and utterly so sophisticated as list your edited pages, because it shows.. what?

That I know how to click a mouse?

Hmm, looks like blocking is in order for again violating WP:3RR (and sockpuppetry to do so to boot). (→Netscott) 05:05, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Uh, Netscott, you are guilty of the same. 3RR applies regardless of reason.

Bbarnett, I would guess that you will soon be blocked for this disruption. Until then, could you at least sign your posts?

For whatever it's worth, Netscott did not violate 3RR, but even if he had I doubt he would be blocked, given the nature of this incident.Proabivouac 05:17, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

A mediation has been going on for over FOUR MONTHS, over this image. In 24 hours, a tiny cabal of three users decided to modify this article, and in a harmful fashion. It is harmful because it does nothing to protect the article, but does everything to create more work and effort for editors. The people out of line here, are those that tried to modify the subject of mediation, just as much as anyone that tried to remove that image. That image needs to stay, and static, and as it sits, until mediation concludes.

Bbarnett, was this also you?Proabivouac 05:36, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Another sock? --Hojimachong^talk 05:57, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Possibly, or it could just be an editor who's not aware of the transclusion due to User:Bbarnett's disruption and removing that as an option. (→Netscott) 06:01, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, the account is newly formed and the only edit has been to the Muhammad article. --Hojimachong^talk 06:05, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

The account was created on the 7th... so while the account is "newly formed" I wouldn't chalk it up straight away to some other editor sockpuppeting here. (→Netscott) 06:07, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, this makes me feel weird. I find that I've recently expressed at least two of the same opinions as the 'outlaw' in the same timeframe that sockpuppets are being discussed. I assume that my comments will be devalued thereby. What is one to do?

My opinions about articles are mostly driven by this: what will best serve to impart the information in the article to the reader?. I can agree with most any option that serves that goal well. I will have to take the time to review more of the archives, to understand the stumbling blocks here. For one thing, I did not realize that there had been a real attempt at an organized mediation, disrupted when the mediator had to leave. But even after the reading I have done so far, I worry how much of the intentions here have had both the article and the reader as their prime focus. Or, at least, how much of those original good intentions still remain, uncorrupted. Shenme 07:41, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I anticipate that once the bid to censor the article is put to rest, we can return to the usual business of improving it without further disruption. We shouldn't have to worry about whether we are either disrespecting or capitulating to aniconist Muslims, as this is all quite off-topic to the creation of a qualilty encyclopedia.Proabivouac 08:46, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

If you want to know why I wonder where the impetus for "we have to do it this way" comes from, it's because I really don't understandsome of the thought, or lack of it. Shenme 08:49, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Here are some ideas to improve the chances that the transclusion method will work (as a method of allowing the main article to remain unprotected a larger proportion of the time while this dispute is worked out):

• Make the name of the transcluded article seem open to both sides of the dispute. To me, the word "image" in the name "lead image" suggests an image of Muhammad. Actually, this file could contain either an image of Muhammad, or a different image, or more than one image, or no image, and/or other things besides an image (e.g. text). A more neutral name, to increase the chance that the transcluded file will be edited rather than deleted from the main article, could be: "top of article", "lead section", "part before opening paragraph", or "image or no image", etc.
• I suspect that many of the editors who delete the image know little or no English. I'm guessing they know Arabic. (Maybe someone else can guess better than me what languages are likely involved.) For practical purposes, I suggest putting a bilingual or multilingual message (English and Arabic) in the comment section of the wikitext. I.e. Have the following (or something similar) appear in both English and Arabic in the wikitext: "<!-- Per this article's talk page and in the interest of reducing overall disruption on this article, kindly do not remove the above transclusion but rather edit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad/lead_image What image is appearing and whether or not one appears in the lead is due to the state of the above transclusion. -->" (That's what the most recent transclusion version said, I think.) I think I can translate it into French and Simple English -- perhaps that would help.
• Also add a bilingual or multilingual message in the wikitext comment "Please participate in the debate (in English) on the talk page before adding or removing the image of Muhammad." both in the main article and in the transcluded page.
• I just had another idea: Have the Muhammad article be just a lead image (or none) and a transclusion of "Muhammad/rest of article", with everything else from the "Muhammad" article moved there. Then when the "Muhammad" page is protected, the rest of the article can still be edited.

I welcome comments on these ideas. --Coppertwig 12:07, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Coppertwig changing name of that page or writing message in multiple languages will not help. The thing that can help if both side are willing to compromise. There is no rule of wikipedia that say that not having picture on the top is censorship in case it is against tradition of that personality. However, this thing they are not willing to understand. --- ALM 12:21, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

IMPORTANT NOTE: Conflict is on all the THREE images on Muhammad page. Why you have moved one image to show that conflict is only on the lead image? At least represent the conflict properly. --- ALM 12:31, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, I've edited in accord with your concern here ALM. (→Netscott) 15:56, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

(section)

The image should be removed. It does not add to the quality of the page but seems to act as a way for editors to be able to frustrate visiting muslims to wikipedia. It seems to limit the number of actual people able to visit this page in peace. The muslim religion forbids looking at pictures of the prophet but it seems quite ironic that they are present on the page of that religion. I like the idea of a link to see the pictures but the pictures dont seem to make or break the page so removing them wouldnt do any harm. Keeping them is offending for people visiting and may be interpreted as a non muslims only page. If you want to anger people and be disrespectful to people keep this picture. But at least put some sort of warning saying they are there. I personally dont really mind but there are people out there who do. Thank You! (Ssd175 05:29, 26 February 2007 (UTC))

This is an encyclopedia, not a religious treatise. Frotz661 06:18, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Agree, images are necessary- it is not as if the image depicts him in an offensive way or anything. Astrotrain 15:53, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Encyclopedias are allowed to show good taste. The mere fact of depicting him is offensive to some people. Why do you say images are "necessary"? How about putting them somewhere where they're less likely to be accidentally seen by people for whom absence of the images is necessary? --Coppertwig 01:20, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

And Wikipedia may contain content that is offensive to some readers. --Hojimachong^talk 01:29, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

"May" -- not "must". The policy says offensive material is to be left out if it's not informative. The principle here seems to me to be a balance of good taste and provision of information. It doesn't say offensive material must be included and must be placed at the top of the page where everybody will see it. --Coppertwig 01:38, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

And that is the argument, whether or not it is informative. As a visual thinker, the image adds a great deal to the article for me. I don't speak for all, but for me the image does make the article more informative. Most readers of the article would probably agree with this, if they could get past the "It's offensive to Muslims" argument, which has no place here per Wikipedia is not censored. --Hojimachong^talk 02:32, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Why this mess

Why cannot we keep all discussion in one place. Is that possible that someone move it all on mediation page and enforce to keep it there? Doing so will make it easy to follow. --- ALM 11:48, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Transclusion of images screws up references

Now that that images are transcluded, the reference shortcut buttons in the captions don't work. ^HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 16:35, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Apparently there is a bug in the MediaWiki system. I have copy-edited and changed the ref. in response. (→Netscott) 16:41, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. ^HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 16:50, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Images should be removed

These images are not of Muhammad. These three images are persian kings, Zoroaster, and ruler who built kaba in 1100 AD. These images should be removed. And secondly there should be respect for every religion. You are adding images which were/are never part of Islam. This article is getting less informative but more hurtful for muslims. Wikipedia readers are not only christians,jews, or hindus. Muslims also read wikipedia. So it would be better to show respect for religion rather finding ways to hurt muslims. Funnypop12 09:06, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

The Kaaba was built in 1100?Proabivouac 09:20, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I believe Funnypop12 is referring to this, which would be something like 500 BCE. A fairer response, Proabivouac, might have been to address the underlying concern, and suggest that Funnypop12's dating might have been off.

Are the images of Zoroaster?

Whether they are or not, we must expect variations on precisely this comment, and we must expect them hundreds, thousands of times in a row, from this point forward, if the rub-their-noses-in-it camp carries the day. Is this really how you propose that such should be addressed, Proabivouac? By fixating on a dating error in the message? Suppose the next message comes from someone who does not make a dating error? BYT 14:05, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

At this point editors can edit Muhammad/images (read Talk:Muhammad/images as well). Consensus appears to be that there needs to be image(s) in the lead and that there needs to be an image or two of Muhammad somewhere in the article. I would recommend attempting to edit corresponding to that. (→Netscott) 14:41, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

The claim that the images are not of Muhammad is completely OR or, if copied from somewhere else, fringe at best. That images were not "part of Islam" (whatever that means) is beside the point, that they are not photographs of the man is beside the point. Using images doesn't imply disrespect towards Islam. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 14:47, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

This is essentially correct - if they're verifiably images of Muhammad, then whether or not they are images of him isn't for us to decide. If another verifiable source disputes this, then we should discuss replacing them with a different image. As long as we're not including every image ever produced (which is likely) then disputed images shouldn't be used unless they're particularly notorious. WilyD 14:51, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

The threshold for inclusion on Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. ^HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 15:06, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

So far there is no disputed image, as no one of those uttering those claims have provided any shred of evidence for this. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 15:18, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Dispute in this context offers no judgement of the legitimacy of the dispute. So there is a disputed image. WilyD 17:09, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I was referring to a back-up of the dispute by references. Otherwise it's OR. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 23:49, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

It is simply, basicly forbidden, images of Muhammad. There is nothing hard to understand that, it is a sin in Islam and forbidden. Simple right? Do you get it? Please respect others beliefs. For an atheist, Jesus's gay pictures on Wiki is nothing important, but for Christians and Muslims, it can not be acceptable. Same here, any of Muhammad's pictures may seem nothing bad for you but for Muslims, it is a sin. Please remove.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Lardayn (talk • contribs)

So what you're saying is that we should censor Wikipedia to cater to the demands of a specific religious group. I'd like to direct you to Wikipedia is not censored. --Hojimachong^talk 23:47, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Lardayn, on the topic of respect: were we to log onto an Islamic site such as Islampedia and post depictions of Muhammad there, that would be disrespectful, and you'd have a point. When you come to Wikipedia and try to impose your standards on others who prefer to contribute to a project which is free from religiously-motivated censorship, who is disrespecting whom?Proabivouac 02:09, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

in 1100 there was a ruler who constructed boundaries around squre Kaaba. So no error in date. It is not picture of Muhammad. Miraj.jpg is pic of zoroaster. You can see clearly fire in Miraj.jpg. Old persian religions had strong concept of fire as God. 1st disputed pic is pic of persian king. It represents time period of Ottoman empire. Disputed images!!!!!!Funnypop12 17:08, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Citations? ^HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 17:10, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, were are the citations. "a ruler" is hardly anything to go by. The picture definetely is Muhammad. Zoroastrian iconography might have informed this Persian depiction of Muhammad but it is nonethless him. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 23:49, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

In any case, that image is definitely one of our worst-- it can't be seen at thumbnail size. I've replaced it with a different (but still veiled) image. --Alecmconroy 18:37, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I thought it quite good and typical of this kind of picture. And your removal of it put the new picture in the wrong place. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 23:49, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, if we want to use Image:Miraj2.jpg, our only choices are to crop it or to enlarge the thumbnail. Or we could switch to a different veiled image. I'm open to all three possibilities, but in its current state, I daresay there isn't a person on earth who could tell me what it's a image of. --Alecmconroy 00:14, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Calligraphy: Maybe people already know this, but here's another calligraphy image: on the Dutch (Nederlands) page they have the image Muhammed.gif which is black-and-white calligraphy. (In case anyone is looking for more calligraphy images.) I can't seem to find it at Commons, though. --Coppertwig 01:53, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with Alecmconroy here save for the fact that the image that he's referring to (the Miraj image) actually corresponds to that particular section of the article it currently is displayed in. (→Netscott) 03:52, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Do all of the images we're currently using have a reliable source backing up the claim that they are in fact intended to represent Muhammad? - Merzbow 04:52, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I like the look of the current version.[4] Liberal Classic 05:13, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Re this version I agree. My only changes to the images would be to put a note like in the dutch version to the calligraphy (that this is a common practice among Muslims) and to removed the uncited (and after the mentioned addition also unneeded) "though depictions of Muhammad are culturally important, no undisputed record exists of his actual appearance".

I like the current calligraphy better than the dutch one (presuming that the calligraphy is accurate). Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 23:53, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

As do I. It combines the calligraphy and Maome quite well. --Hojimachong^talk 05:16, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I still don't see how people are insisting that images are an essential part of the page. Were they made in the time period of muhammad anyway? Are they an accurate depiction of this man? If not then imsges are useless. You might as well draw some random person on a piece of paper and call it muhammad.(Ssd175 22:31, 28 February 2007 (UTC))

• Given that this "point" has been addressed several times at great length on this talk page, as well as the mediation page and so on, perhaps you could be specific on what you're unclear on. WilyD 22:40, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Why do people need this image on here so badly if its not necessary and all its doing is causing controversy. This image itself is just causing trouble and will only create more work for revisionists due to muslims taking it out all the time. Millions of people visit wikipedia and these images are bound to be taken out over and over again. Why not take it out and make it easier for everyone? It's not like the images are going to make or break the article. They dont even represent an accurate depiction of the prophet himself due t the fact that they were created hundreds of years after his death. (Ssd175 02:39, 1 March 2007 (UTC))

Fear of vandalism is not a reason to break Wikipedia policy; What do you think Westboro Baptist Church would look like if this was the case? --Hojimachong^talk 02:42, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

It's not only fear of vandals but the controversy that will arise. I mean come on, look at the discussion page already. Its extremely long covering only images. If you take them out everyone will be content, and if people want to see pictures we can make a section at the bottom of the article providing links to images or the images themselves (with a warning beforehand of course).

The talk page pretty clearly demonstrates that the controversy has already arisen. The whole page is a debate about the controversy of including the images. --Hojimachong^talk 03:05, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I see no reason to allow this type of pressure to influence our editorial style. ^HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 03:05, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. WP:NPOV and WP:NOT exist for this sole reason. Do you think anybody gives Fred Phelps any kind of respect? If WP:NPOV didn't exist, it would be a slur-fest against his bigotry. --Hojimachong^talk 03:16, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Well after realizing that wikipedia is not censored it is useless arguing whether the images should be put in this article (although they are not necessary). They do have a right to be there although i still believe there should be some kind of warning at the top of the page before we reveal these images. A link to pictures would be ok too but i guess Wikipedia doesnt require anyone too (although it would be respectful). (Ssd175 03:39, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, funnypop, for your contribution. Of course, if the pictorals of Muhammed are evidently incorrect because they identify someone else, they should be removed. However, does it mean that no pictorals should be allowed ? From the encyclopedia's point of view, textual representations of the subject is in the same thrust and timber as that of other religious or cultural articles. Because the inherent discussion is not cloaked in reverential dogma, then comments, versions, even "facts" are subject to an honest debate. If that be true of what is written, then that be equally true of what is portrayed as a pictoral. The key perspective is that the encyclopedia is not influenced by spiritual piety in relating information about any of the religious subjects. Therefore, pictures are a must. However, for faithful adherents of any particular religious persona, the issue of presenting pictorals is more demanding. How can there be a concrete pictoral of a spiritual body; even a representation can be embarrassingly profane. In short, no picture is justified. Is Wikipedia responsible for altering its approach, when religious concerns arise, in order to satisfy the faithful, if in doing so, the historic integrity of delivering "objective" encyclopedic content is diminished. --Free4It 23:10, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not Censored? Oh Really?

Please sign your name below my comment IF you think wikipedia is NOT censored. Its a serious call, and I will right here debunk this absured claim forever. Guaranteed.

If you win (i.e. censorship is not applied in wikipedia) then I will support the inclusion of pictures in this article. If I successfully prove that censorship is indeed applied then you must abstain from mentioning this absured claim of 'no censorship' and will have to apply the same censorship which I will prove the existence of. VirtualEye 09:04, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

This voting is already done Talk:Muhammad/Mediation#Another_vote_.28yawn.29:_Let.27s_keep_it_simple. --- ALM 10:34, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, VirtualEye, for your contribution. Is Wikipedia censored? Before there is a consideration of that, it would be necessary to acknowledge that the encyclopedia is largely text-based. Given a body of text, the very inherent nature of which necessitated editing, before it is even presented; given a body of readers, the very description of which necessitated a bias of one shade or another, even before the actual lecture; given a body of "editors", the very motivation of which necessitates adding their own colour, even before some sense of duty obligates them: given all that, as a minimum part of the text composite, and one cannot, apart from fact confronting opinion, not find censorship. --Curious2george 02:10, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Shahada image

We obviously need an image of the Shahada; however the flag of Saudi Arabia is, for a number of reasons, not the best choice. ALM has found many images of Islamic calligraphy recently, some of which are historically significant. Perhaps a better example may be found among these?Proabivouac 11:16, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Muhammad and Jewish tribes

Sefringle, please take a look at Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Lack_of_neutrality_as_an_excuse_to_delete --Aminz 02:54, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

It says that usuaully is an acceptable reason to delete, and in this case it is.

F.E. Peters states that Muhammad's treatment of Jews of Medina was quite extraordinary and is "matched by nothing in the Qur'an, and is quite at odds with Muhammad's treatment of the Jews he encountered outside Medina. We must think then that his action was essentially political, that it was prompted by behavior that he read as treasonous and not some transgression of the law of God."[39]

I removed this paragraph because it is POV pushing and really doesn't add any valuable knowledge about Muhammad. It is only praise and nothing more.--Sefringle 02:56, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Please be polite Sefringle. That's all Peters says about the matter in his book and it contains valuable knowledge about Muhammad. For example the nature of his behavior, Qur'anic view on the matter and comparison with Muhammad's behavior towards Jews outside Medina. --Aminz 02:58, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, 'that' stuff might be relevant, however we are discussing the paragraph above, and that paragraph is POV pushing. What part of the above paragraph is informative and not an opinion?--Sefringle 03:13, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Ah, what do you mean by POV pushing? It is what Peters say, his POV. Posting his POV is not POV pushing. --Aminz 03:15, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

yes it is, because it is only an opinion. Opinions don't belong on this page. Only facts. We've settled this way back. (see Talk:Muhammad/Archive 12#Aisha criticism)--Sefringle 03:19, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I think what he is saying is a fact. Do you have any sources against it? --Aminz 03:22, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

No, that's not a fact... it is very contested how and why Muhammad treated the Jews. gren グレン 03:25, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

My whole point is that even if assume that the view is not neutral, it shouldn't be removed per Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Lack_of_neutrality_as_an_excuse_to_delete --Aminz 03:33, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Even though that section says:

"The neutrality policy is used sometimes as an excuse to delete texts that are perceived as biased. Isn't this a problem?

In many cases, yes. Many of us believe that the fact that some text is biased is not enough, in itself, to delete it outright. If it contains valid information, the text should simply be edited accordingly."

That section says it should be deleted under these circumstances.--Sefringle 03:40, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

It says:"Many of us believe that the fact that some text is biased is not enough, in itself, to delete it outright." And lastly, we are talking about a respectable scholar so his POV has weight. We can not say his views are biased. That's not appropriate. --Aminz 03:54, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Everyone has a bias. We most certianly can say his views are bias. However the policy says we should present the facts without stating his opinion. That way we are minimizing POV.--Sefringle 04:21, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

So, what is your suggestion? Which parts are the facts and which parts are his biased views? --Aminz 04:44, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes. and the paragraph above is an opinion, and really doesn't belong here.--Sefringle 04:48, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Sefringle, I am open to your suggestions. There are several points in the quote: 1. It was extraordinary behavior because Muhammad's treatment of the Jews is matched by nothing in the Qur'an & 2. Muhammad's treatment of Jews outside Medina was different. So, He thinks the action was "political that it was prompted by behavior that he read as treasonous and not some transgression of the law of God." These are points which we can check if they are true or not. Please let me know which of these points you dispute. --Aminz 04:55, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Analysis of historical process is always opinion to some extent. I don't understand your objection but I have never seen a place stating that opinion isn't valid. Scholarship is much of the time opinion because it's not about simple facts it's about processes. gren グレン 05:01, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I especially have a problem with this sentence:

Peters argues that Muhammad's treatment of the Jews of Medina was "quite extraordinary", "matched by nothing in the Qur'an",

does this sentence provide any factual information other than a POV opinion?--Sefringle 05:10, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

One interpretation might be that it was "quite extraordinary" and "matched by nothing in the Qur'an" because later Muslims didn't do the same things to the Jewish communities rather they provided them with the pact of "Dhimmi". --Aminz 05:14, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Sefringle, I have found another discussion of this topic on another page of the book which I think would bring more balance to the section. --Aminz 05:16, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

It provides the opinion (which a scholar tries to form based on their interpretation of fact) that the treatment of Jews at Medina is very different from treatment of other Jews. I don't understand your problem with this. It's one scholar's attempt at analysis of the situation and trying to explain why Jews were treated differently at Medina. It doesn't need to be right but I see no reason why it's an opinion that needs to be removed. The fact that it contains opinion is rather meaningless. NPOV is not about removal of scholars' opinions. It's about neutrally representing them and not trying to pass one off as truth. No? gren グレン 05:25, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

In page 7x of the book the author discussed the same issue but had a different approach. So, I added that as well. --Aminz 05:35, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with the opinion of a scholar... it can be problematic how it's used but this and other articles are laced with opinions (both explicit and implicit) as is any piece of writing. gren グレン 03:25, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Section on "Miracles in the Muslim biographies" hardly mentions anything about miracles

Half of the section on "Miracles in the Muslim biographies" makes absolutely no mention of miracles. Instead, it details Carl Ernst's views on how Muslim authors viewed Muhammad's social and political contributions. Historical views of Muhammad's social and political contributions should be covered in the article, but not in a section on "Miracles in the Muslim biographies". Patiwat 04:32, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Patiwat, if you read the previous paragraph, it says: "The pre-modern Muslim biographies of Muhammad .... Modern Muslim biographies of Muhammad however...", so there is a change. The next paragraph makes it clear why this change happened. --Aminz 04:42, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I'll agree that it is relevant because it's explaining why miraculous explanations of Muhammad have become less important. So, in the sense that it's talking about a negation of the use of miracles in biographies it is about miracles. I think you can surely improve how it's written, but I wouldn't remove it. gren グレン 05:06, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Muhammad's attitude

Karl, I don't think that is disputed. --Aminz 02:28, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Moving the pictures down

I would like to move the preaching picture image down in front of the beginning of the Qur'an section as that's what the picture is talking about. Is that okay to most of us? --Aminz 02:32, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I see no consensus for that. As the Qur'an is mentioned in paragraph two, and as this is for what Muhammad is most famous, there's no credible objection after topicality. Of course, you might strengthen your argument by removing mention of the Qur'an to the section where you feel it (along with the image) more appropriate.

I did propose a solution which would have kept any depictions out of the lead, but this element of the solution was a compromise, only operative if a plurality of editors opposed to depictions agreed to the other provisions. Even among those editors opposed to religiously-based censorship, it seems I'm a bit isolated - the prevailing opinion might be aptly summed up as, Wikipedia isn't censored, period.Proabivouac 03:02, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

The picture is about Muhammad's preaching which is only indirectly connected to the Qur'an. In front of the Qur'an section, we can have an image of an old-Qur'an. Muhammad, to Muslims, is known for being a messenger of God, not directly for his preaching in front of people. The picture is most relevant to a section on Muhammad's invitation of others to Islam: i.e. the section in the beginning of the Qur'an --Aminz 03:12, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Are there fair use/free content pictures of the JFK autopsy on Wikipedia/The Commons? If so, go propose addition at that page, and see what people say. But just because you find examples of where the rule isn't being enforced, does not mean that the rule does not exist. Comparisons don't add anything; we're supposed to be focusing on the policies and guidelines. --Hojimachong^talk 01:13, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Depictions of Muhammad

On Talk:Muhammad saw (an article I listed on afd) a Muslim user expresses concern about the pictures of Muhammad in this article. The trouble is that he feels he cannot contribute to this page as it would cause him to see things he considers sinful and blasphemous. Now wikipedia is not censored, but would it really be censorship to confine the pictures to the Depictions of Muhammad article that we already have? It could certainly be linked to provide that information in a perhaps even more comprehensive way. I'm agnostic on this issue, but I can't help thinking that the pictures of Muhammad are only included here to make a point. Deranged bulbasaur 09:32, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

It's also worth noting that if the conservative element of the Muslim faith feels too aggrieved to contribute to this article on these grounds, it could greatly compound systemic bias. Deranged bulbasaur 09:39, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Presumably, the rationale for inclusion is that the pictures represent a part of the cultural entity that is Muhammad, but I find instead that such depictions are a marginal phenomenon. Certianly it should be handled on wikipedia, and that it is, however if Muslims do not percieve this to be important to their faith, perhaps it's culturally insensitive to effectively say: "No, you're wrong, these pictures are important to our outside understanding of your prophet (pictures are part of how *we* do biography), so we'll include them in an article that's ostensibly about your beliefs in spite of you." Deranged bulbasaur 09:58, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree on most of the thing you have said. However, he can still contribute here by using some blocker etc. I agree that the pictures represent a minority tradition however they are there presenting to the reader as they represent majority tradition. I have no doubt that they are there in prominent places to make a WP:POINT and violate WP:NPOV#Undue weight. However, sadly many people here even after seeing multiple references (that drawing picture of Muhammad among Muslim is very rare trend) are not agreeing to remove picture from the top. --- ALM 10:18, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

wikipedia do ot spreads lies and fictional. i dont see the importancy of the image, all the details should be included in the articles, afterall its wikipedia, not picturepedia. albiru do not live at the time of Muhamaad s.a.w., what make such picture relevent to this article? no censor again? wheres the real picture again?--Towaru 15:09, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

In response to deranged bulbosaur, since this debate has stirred up so much discussion, it has been agreed that any removal of the pictures now would be a conscious effort to remove it based on the whims of one group of contributors. The argument you use ("conservative Muslims won't contribute") is flawed, because it's not our job to keep everybody happy. All of the other topics of discussion have been exhuasted, and now the only debate (at Talk:Muhammad/Mediation, at least) is whether or not keeping the pics at the top violates the undue weight policy. --Hojimachong^talk 15:42, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Of course, this is not an article about Muslim tradition, but about Muhammad, who's some guy (of variously stated importance, the true value of which I don't know). All the articles about Johnny Nobody or Mr. Important have a photograph, painting, sketch, sculpture (photo thereof) where available, regardless of the importance of that particular image, or the general pictorial representation of that person. WilyD 15:42, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

It is false to assign motivations in a blanket fashion to all editors who want an image of Muhammad at the lead of this article and doing so runs heavy against the assumption of good faith (a Wikipedia policy). I would argue that there is no doubt that such pointed motivations are in the mix but that at this point it is my impression that the majority of editors wanting a lead image of Muhammad on this article are pushing for that in a good faith way. (→Netscott) 15:44, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Is this directed at me? Maybe I just haven't had enough coffee yet but I'm not sure how this reponds to my claim or what you're saying here. My (only) point was that Islamic Tradition should not be the sole (or even necessarily principle) guide for this article regarding style and the like. The article should not be trying to represent Islamic Tradition, but to represent Muhammad, who was an actual guy (this is fairly uncontraversial). Every article about Guy X includes a likeness of him if we can obtain it, even when there's no reason to believe it's accurate, as long as it's verifiable. WilyD 15:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

The main reason I think we should follow the precedent of not showing the likeness that has guided this page for at least three or four years is pragmatic: unlike Guy X, people will constantly be appealing to remove the images of Muhammad, or simply removing them without discussion. That makes this article different than, say, Michael Jackson or John F. Kennedy, and frankly the perpetual distractions on this article are keeping us from getting good work done on the article. Some articles are about unique topics. The last time I checked, there was no image of a gaping head wound at John F. Kennedy autopsy and no plans to include them, despite attempts to add the image. Help me out here -- is that censorship? BYT 00:17, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

"...frankly the perpetual distractions on this article are keeping us from getting good work done on the article."

If that's your concern, why not start by dropping the matter yourself?Proabivouac 00:34, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

If we removed everything that was a target for POV pushers and vandals, there'd be no encyclopaedia left to build. Some articles just require vigilance as part of the nature of the Wiki - there's not much you can do. WilyD 04:13, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

As for Kennedy, I can't find any of the image discussion, so I can't comment. But things like Piss Christ definitely have religiously offensive image(s), for instance. Anyways, one cannot fight every battle, and it's more important that Muhammad is a first class article than it is that John F Kennedy Autopsy is a first class article. WilyD 04:26, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

That's the point, there isn't any discussion about the JFK pictures at this time. AFAIK, there are not even any pictures such as this which exist on Wikipedia. --Hojimachong^talk 05:22, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

This is perfectly true. We should get off the image already. As i mentioned earlier it is not a major part of the article. So if you dont mind i am going to begin editing this page for information and historical accuracy.(Ssd175 02:40, 6 March 2007 (UTC))

Go right ahead, just be careful not to do anything inflammatory (anything that could possibly be construed as POV, removal of pics, etc.). --Hojimachong^talk 02:50, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

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We are talking about an image that had been drawn base on fiction not fact, and please dont similarize Muhammad s.a.w. with any other human.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.52.92.234 (talk • contribs)

sorry i forgot to sign my name, i thought i had log in.--Towaru 06:33, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

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Why should we not "similarize" Muhammad with any other human? I'd like to hear your views. --Hojimachong^talk 06:09, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the anonymous contributor actually hits the heart of the matter-- the issue is whether we treat Muhammad like we treat everyone else or whether we treat him as a unique individual unlike everyone in Wikipedia. --Alecmconroy 06:16, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I am quite familiar with this IP's prefix... It is yet another meatpuppet/sock of VirtualEye (Along with User:60.52.18.34, User:60.52.46.24, and User:60.52.87.230). All of the IP's trace back to a company called "Wisma Telekom" (running an RIR on them reveals this). --Hojimachong^talk 06:20, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Alecmconroy, u right, thats what i mean. and that picture is base on fictional imagination of an artist. Wikipedia:No personal attacks. Hojimachong, if that make somebody or everybody to be virtualeye, why dont u just ban our isp from accessing wikipedia? over 20% malaysian populasion uses that isp, its hard to tells. and Im not virtualeye. probably u just like somebody who want to destroy other user, just because ppl dont agree with ur POV. --Towaru 06:33, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

"Making out everybody to be VirtualEye", eh? Sorry, it's sort of suspicious when four editors from the same area and IP prefix (who have never edited Wikipedia before then) come straight to a debate, like they know exactly where it's going to be. And I think you need to review the personal attack policy, because what I did falls more under WP:CIVIL, as making an accusation. --Hojimachong^talk 06:36, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

"over 20% malaysian populasion uses that isp, its hard to tells."

Um, yeah, right...VirtualEye, it's actually quite easy to tell from the character of your posts. Why are you wasting everyone's time?Proabivouac 06:40, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

oops sorry did i accuse somebody with anything related to them? im not virtualeye :) . just because or maybe my POV is same with virtualeye (eventhough its not), its doesnt proves anything :). just like that picture its doesnt proves thats Muhammad s.a.w., cool ur head down. and calm down. and think again. cheers. sorry.

Towaru has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling to someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Happy editing!
Smile at others by adding {{subst:Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

sincerely from --Towaru 07:02, 6 March 2007 (UTC) not virtualeye lol.

Stop assuming bad faith

I beg you to stop assuming bad faith towards each other. VirtualEye is a Pakistani and came from Germany I believe. Towaru is Indonesian. I beg from you guys to have little bit of following of WP:AGF. Please. Otherwise end these accusations and perform the check user. --- ALM 09:08, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Im Malaysian. Sorry. I will ignore these guy for accusing me to be virtualeye next time. Let them be. Sorry. Lets end these.--60.52.92.234 09:25, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

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We are talking about an image that had been drawn base on fiction not fact, and please dont similarize Muhammad s.a.w. with any other human.--60.52.92.234 09:25, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

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