Talk:Morocco

July 2023

@Smartshri99: you didn't answer the question. Where did you get the 400BC from and why are you introducing a sock's wish? M.Bitton (talk) 10:46, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

https://books.google.de/books?redir_esc=y&id=F-8uAQAAIAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=Kingdom shri44 (talk) 15:12, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

If you have no intention of answering the question, then please do me a favour and don't waste my time with cryptic nonsense. M.Bitton (talk) 15:15, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Countries with coastline in both the Atlantic and the Mediterranean

Shouldn't the UK be included as well, given that Gibraltar and parts of Cyprus are UK territories? 31.124.181.40 (talk) 09:39, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 September 2023

the land thats marked as western Sahara is Moroccan and there’s Moroccan people and families living there and they hold Moroccan nationality with Moroccan ID 41.141.128.134 (talk) 22:50, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: this and the Western Sahara article say otherwise. M.Bitton (talk) 23:26, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 September 2023

Morocco founded in 789 AD 196.113.9.93 (talk) 12:15, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. M.Bitton (talk) 12:24, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

"ⵜⴰⴳⵍⴷⵉⵜ ⵏ ⵍⵎⵖⵔⵉⴱ" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect ⵜⴰⴳⵍⴷⵉⵜ ⵏ ⵍⵎⵖⵔⵉⴱ has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 September 23 § ⵜⴰⴳⵍⴷⵉⵜ ⵏ ⵍⵎⵖⵔⵉⴱ until a consensus is reached. greyzxq ^talk 22:22, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

"ⵜⴰⴳⵍⴷⵉⵜ" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect ⵜⴰⴳⵍⴷⵉⵜ has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 September 24 § ⵜⴰⴳⵍⴷⵉⵜ until a consensus is reached. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 19:43, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

the creation date of the country is wrong. The country was created in this date 789 AD. The date quoted in wiki is the Independence Day. Not création date. Thanks Nuritcka (talk) 10:48, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Recent edits

@Hamamat32 I suggest you to start using the talk page before you risk getting blocked for violating WP:3RR. Clearly, your edits are not improvements since it looks like all you've done was revert to an older version of the page. I have no idea why you would remove the hatnote that clarifies the potential reference of "المغرب" to the Maghreb region (which you did not explain in your edit summary). Furthermore, the official language you changed is recognized as Standard Moroccan Amazigh, not Standard Moroccan Tamazight, and it's commonly referred to as Berber (just as the other official language indicates "Arabic," not "Modern Standard Arabic"). The change you made, which "tweaked the layout," does not make much sense either. There is no need to repetitively include "(Arabic)" and "(Standard Moroccan Tamazight)" after every Arabic and Berber phrase in the motto and national anthem. Take a look at the formatting of the infobox on other country pages, like those for Tunisia and Algeria, to get an idea of how it should appear. Skitash (talk) 20:55, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

I told you, I did not revert to an older version, and you defiantly violated 3RR, with four reverts in the span of a day ([1], [2], [3], [4]). I explained in the summary of my first eidt that the "about addition" is unneeded, which is referring to the "المغرب" note. As this is the English Wikipedia, having that at the top of the page is unnecessary since it's not a common mishap among English speakers and readers. As for the other changes you and Hero7373 made, they are what I would call not improvements. I do not see anything wrong with having the languages clarified in parentheses, nor with the SMT wording, and adding an additional name in the lead is also unnecessary. Regarding the examples you mentioned, other stuff exists. Hamamat32 (talk) 19:08, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Once again, you have failed to explain how your edits are supposed to constitute improvements to the page. XTheBedrockX's edit [5], which you have blatantly reverted without an explanation, is entirely valid, considering that English Wikipedia is not restricted to English native speakers but rather to an international audience per WP:AUDIENCE, and therefore articles should be made more accessible and understandable for as many readers as possible. Hence, the Arabic name should be clarified for readers who encounter it across the article. Regarding what you personally perceive as improvements or not does not matter here, for this is a consensus-building platform where you can not expect to force your edits and mass revert several editors. All edits of the three users which you have unexplainedly reverted so far were intended to either clarify certain words, e.g. "المغرب" and "Berber," or reduce redundant repetition. Skitash (talk) 20:07, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, I'd have to agree. There's a reason the "R from alternative language" shell template exists, after all. XTheBedrockX (talk) 20:35, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

I honestly still think that the al-Maghrib disambiguation note is completely unnecessary, but alright, fair enough. I'll just change the wording to English to make it more intelligible to the non-Arabic speaking reader. As for the "Berber" phrasing in the infobox, I'll alter it Berber languages, as this is much less vague than just Berber but still not as wordy as Standard Moroccan Tamazight. Having the language clarified in parentheses in the motto and national anthem is fine, I don't see much of a reason for removing them. Hopefully this is a compromise that we can settle with. Hamamat32 (talk) 20:05, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

This won't exactly solve the problem. Maghreb and Morocco are two different words in English, unlike in Arabic. Morocco is not referred to as "Maghreb" across the article, and thus your proposed hatnote "For the subregion also known as Maghreb in Arabic, see Maghreb" is pretty useless. As XTheBedrockX said, there is a reason why the "R from alternative language" template exists. Your proposed edit to change "Berber" to "Berber languages" is inaccurate. Standard Moroccan Amazigh is one standardized language, unlike the several mutually unintelligible Berber languages that exist. Berber would be a more appropriate term as it is commonly used to refer to this standardized official Berber language. Regarding your final point, no, it is not fine just because you think it is. Take a look at any other country's infobox formatting. Skitash (talk) 20:24, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Okay then, Arabic wording it is. But your edits to the infobox are contested, and as such you'll have to gain consensus here prior to implementing them as per WP:CON. Therefore, I'll restore to the version before for now. Remember, you've already violated 3RR, so don't add this to the list. Hamamat32 (talk) 21:44, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

What you added to the Maghreb article doesn't make any sense. Why would anyone look for an Arabic word in the English Wikipedia? M.Bitton (talk) 22:05, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

See above. I agree. Hamamat32 (talk) 22:12, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Per WP:EDITCON, "An edit has presumed consensus until it is disputed or reverted. Should another editor revise that edit then the new edit will have presumed consensus until it meets with disagreement." Since you have reverted several editors who had achieved Wikipedia:Presumed consensus, it is up to you to establish a new consensus. I suggest you stop edit warring and respect the ongoing consensus. Skitash (talk) 22:52, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

I've withdrew my reversions of the other editors, but not for your edits; thus, per the policy, your edits do not have consensus, and as such what you're saying applies to you. Hamamat32 (talk) 23:31, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Could you try to make sense for once? My edit took place nearly two weeks before MIHAIL and Hero7373's edits (and you're still persisting in undoing the changes made by the latter), meaning the edit has achieved presumed consensus. I suggest you read Wikipedia:Consensus again. "Editors who ignore talk page discussions yet continue to edit in or revert disputed material, or who stonewall discussions, may be guilty of disruptive editing and incur sanctions." Skitash (talk) 11:03, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Could you? I don't think you're understanding the polices and guidelines you're citing, nor are you listening. WP:SILENCE has no WP:DEADLINE, so what you're saying does have any pertinence. Wikipedia:Consensus states, "An edit has presumed consensus until it is disputed or reverted. Should another editor revise that edit then the new edit will have presumed consensus until it meets with disagreement"; to put it in the most simple words possible: You made your edit, It had presumed consensus, I disputed and reverted it, no other editor as of yet has revised that reversion, your edit no longer has presumed consensus. As such, you are the one stonewalling here. You also haven't explained why you agree with Hero's edit, and it seems you're just using it as a red herring, but sure, I won't undo it. Now, I've reverted your and only your edit (this one), thus, per the above, the onus is on you to establish consensus for it. Hamamat32 (talk) 20:57, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

You are definitely not making any sense now. WP:LISTEN solely applies to you in this situation, as you are the one attempting to force an edit on presumed consensus that had been established by three editors. In other words, nobody is agreeing with you here, and you're the one sticking to their meaningless viewpoint. Furthermore, the link you've drawn between WP:DEADLINE and WP:SILENCE is tenuous at best. Regarding Hero7373's edit, the responsibility falls on you to provide an explanation for your disagreement with their edit, considering that you have reverted what appeared to be a clear and beneficial edit without providing an edit summary or an explanation on this talk page. Regarding your final point, it's important to note that I have already presented reasons for my edits and refuted your points. On the other hand, you have failed to provide meaningful reasons for your edits and have yet to respond to any of my arguments. Instead, your approach seemed to shift towards insisting that I establish consensus [6] instead of making a meaningful point. Your reliance on Wikipedia:I just don't like it/I just like it as your main argument, particularly in the context of your statement "Having the language clarified in parentheses in the motto and national anthem is fine, I don't see much of a reason for removing them." is not in line with the principles of Wikipedia. It is your responsibility to "provide a substantive rationale for the reversion," as outlined in Wikipedia:Don't revert due solely to "no consensus". Skitash (talk) 22:04, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Phosphate phosphate phosphate

Morocco is home to (by an astonishingly wide margin) the largest known phosphate reserves at roughly 50 billion tonnes. The phosphate industry is Morocco's largest foreign exchange earner but gets effectively zero coverage on this article, less than comparatively insignificant sources of revenue.

I think this article could use either a mention or section on how at least 85% of the entire planet's phosphate is located in this very specific part of the world. I feel this is important and unique enough to the geography, economy, and consequently the geopolitics of Morocco to warrant more than a brief mention in the articles Tourism section of all places. 2600:8800:104:D300:C41F:A2D:CAA5:B0FC (talk) 19:42, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

This proposal (although not developed into something that fits in the article) makes sense. The economy section briefly mentions mining (not even linking to the Mining industry of Morocco article and it would make sense to add some more on this resource in the economics section (phosphate is a critical component of fertiliser and concerns about maintaining global food production when Morrocco's mines run out (estimated late this century) are non-trivial - and voiced by agronomists from time to time). Arnoutf (talk) 19:12, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Not to be confused with...

Really? We need this at the top of the page? Seems patronizing:

Not to be confused with Maraca, Monaco, Comoro Islands, or Comoros.

Aren't we forgetting these?

Not to be confused with Macaque, Macaca, Marac, Maracanã, Morokro, Maracas, Mokoro, Macaron, Maroc, Maruca, Marocconus, Moruca, Maroko, or Marruecos.

By the way, one of those really does mean Morocco; the others don't. Mathglot (talk) 02:14, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

"Ethnic groups" in infobox

I entertained a conversation like this before, but I didn't set forth an awfully thorough argument and it has been archived since. I deem it useless to have an "ethnic groups" parameter in the infobox because:

1. There is no authoritative source regarding ethnic groups or diversity in Morocco. Such parameters are not included in the census. Prior to 1975, the census kept a tally of Berbers, Arabs, Foreigners, and "Israelites" but this is not up to date.
2. Despite this, there are multiple surveys (AfroBarometer, ArabBarometer, Britannica, etc...) in which Moroccans are asked their ethnic identity throughout time. Nearly all of them differ on the percentage and methodology -- some observe more Berber respondants than Arabs, some include Baydhan and no Sahrawis, etc... They may be from reliable sources, but per WP:ONUS and WP:SOURCESDIFFER I deem the best response to this to be simply removing the "ethnic groups" parameter
3. Even if multiple reliable surveys can be found, the methodology between them will inevitably differ and I fear this page will simply boil down to an edit war on who has the latest and best survey for this parameter. Per Britannica's "Berber" entry, "an accurate count of Berbers is difficult to come by for a variety of reasons, including a lack of thorough surveys". I fear this article turns into a tug-of-war regarding what defines racial identity, which is a debate that I'm certain nobody wants to occur here.

A solution could be like with the France article, with a Nationality parameter -- per the 2014 (latest) census; this number should be 99.7% Moroccan and 0,25% other. I seek consensus regarding this. NAADAAN (talk) 18:09, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Furthermore, the source used in the article claims it's an approximation -- whilst it's presented as an uncontested fact in the article. NAADAAN (talk) 18:12, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

There has been a similar discussion to this on Talk:Moroccans, and consensus has been established that most sources agree on the ~70% Arab and ~30% Berber ethnic breakdown. As of now, the 2012 source appears to be the most recent source available regarding ethnic groups. The situation in the article regarding France differs from that of Morocco, considering that French nationality is intertwined with ethnicity. The French people are both an ethnic group and nation, whereas Morocco is multi-ethnic. Skitash (talk) 18:28, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

You can understand that a subject as polarizing as ethnic identity probably shouldn't be dependant on consensus based on vague, unclear, numbers with unclear methodologies. Morocco's multi-ethnic nature can be made justice just as well in the lead without having to resort to estimating numbers IMO. NAADAAN (talk) 18:43, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Ethnic demographics, by their nature, are complex and multifaceted. It is practically impossible to obtain exact figures. This is why Wikipedia articles rely on estimates, which is the case in many country articles, such as Sudan. Even reputable sources, such as the CIA World Factbook base their information on estimates. In my opinion, highlighting the country's nationalities "99.7% Moroccan and 0.25% other" is not useful at all, and does not tell us anything. Template:Infobox country does not have a nationality parameter for a reason.

It seems that numerous sources align on a comparable ethnic breakdown range, and generally do not significantly differ from one another. Here are a few sources I could find:

• Encyclopedic World Atlas: "Arab 70%, Berber 30%" [7]
• The Report: Morocco 2012: "Morocco's population is approximately 67% Arab, 31% indigenous Berber and 2% Sahrawi" [8]
• World Health Systems: "More than 80% of Moroccans are Arab, while the remaining 20% are Berber" [9]
• Arab Barometer: 71% Arab, 28% Berber, 1% others [10]
• Genetic Disorders Among Arab Populations: "Majority Arabs, 35% Berbers" [11]
• Guide to African Political and Economic Development: "Arab 70%" [12]
• Snapshot of Past and Present Historical Events in African Countries: "Arabs make up 65% of the over 33 million population of Morocco while the Berbers consist of the rest."[13]

Given this, it is reasonable to agree on an approximate range of 65-70% Arab and 30-35% Berber. Skitash (talk) 19:42, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

"Infobox country does not have a nationality parameter for a reason" doesn't mean anything, that parameter can easily be implemented. The policy of the state under Mohammed VI has been to prioritize a mixed "national identity" above perceived ethnic differences, and ommitting it would be the wiser choice rather than arguing over this endlessly.

Out of the 7 sources you have provided, 1 was a business brochure, 2 were more focused on public health than demographics. Regarding the Arab Barometer, the data is very versatile, with "20% Berber; 44% Arab" (2021) to "28% Berber; 70% Arab" (2023) -- such an increase in the number of Arabs within 2 years is odd. Furthermore, this doesn't take bias into account; I would assume that Arabs would be more avid to participate in the ArabBarometer and the fact the survey is done online would likely put others in disadvantage.

This is a very cautious subject, I wish not to fall in a pithole of debates about "what is truth" and playing around with semantics but the amount of surveys (including the ones I provided) elaborate on what an Arabized Berber could be classified as (Berber or Arab, Distinct?) and there are multiple reliable sources claiming that "the majority of Maghrebis are Arabized Berbers" and that "the origins of the Maghreb's population are therefore Berber: the vast majority of today's Arabic speakers are simply Arabized Berbers". There are numerous reliable sources that disprove the earlier estimate of Berbers and Sahrawis in the country, a few I could find:

• Akram & Stora, Les 100 portes du Maghreb (1999): 40%-50% Berbers in Morocco (p. 90)
• Roussellier, Morocco’s Two-Track Approach to the Western Sahara Conflict (2013): 2.7% Sahrawi
• Chaker, Berbères aujourd'hui (1999): ~40% Berbers in Morocco (p. 14)
• Vermeren, Le Maroc en 100 questions (2020) ~75-80% Berbers in 1912, now 28-60% (p. 255)
• Deroche, Les peuples autochtones et leur relation originale à la terre (2008): "could be" 40% in Morocco (p. 14)
• The New Arab (2023): "estimates range as high as" ~70% of Moroccans "claiming Berber heritage"
• MacDonald, Political Discourse in the Maghreb (2021): 50-60% percent of Moroccans "believed to be Amazigh"
• Britannica (2000): 44% Arab, 24% Arabized Berber, 21% other Berbers (adding up to 45% Berber vs 44% Arab), 10% Mauritanian Moors (Sahrawis???), 1% other.
• Gagliardi, Indigenous peoples’ rights in Morocco (2019): 40-60%, as high as 70%
• Hart, Tribe and Society in Rural Morocco (2000): ~50% Berber speakers, "would have been" 70-80% pre-colonialism

We could go around in circles about this for ages, but the reality is that this is practically a minefield and there are thousands of arguments we could raise towards one another. From my personal experience, ethnic statistics are seen as an academic taboo in Morocco (probably a remnant of French colonialism where it was outlawed). Following a cultural Arabization campaign led by the Istiqlal Party, I am pessimistic that an accurate number will be determined. I have refrained from even scratching the surface regarding genetic analysis, I apologize for the essay. NAADAAN (talk) 20:47, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your input, however:

• The New Arab source [14] which you provided bases its estimates on an advocacy group made for indigenous people [15] which itself is based on estimates claimed by the Amazigh Cultural Movement, which is not necessarily neutral. Additionally, the New Arab article says that 70% of Moroccans claim Amazigh heritage, contrary to what the source actually says "While the 2016 census in Morocco estimated the number of Tamazight speakers to be 28% of the population, the Amazigh associations claim a rate of 65 to 70%". This is about language, not ethnicity.
• The Western Sahara conflict source [16] says that Western Sahara makes up 2.7% of the total Moroccan population, not Sahrawis. Sahrawis themselves constitute about a third of the population of Western Sahara.
• Veremen's source [17] gives a very wide range "28-60%", therefore making it unreliable.
• [18][19] These sources are outdated.
• The figure in the Indigenous peoples’ rights in Morocco source [20] is based on the claim of a leading Amazigh activist. Not necessarily neutral.
• The Britannica source [21] is also quite outdated. Additionally, "Arabized Berber" is not an ethnic group, but its solely a term which signifies Berbers who underwent Arabization, who would usually consider themselves culturally and linguistically Arab. The source also gives a percentage of 10% "Mauritanian Moors", and it is not very clear what this is supposed to mean.
• [22] Berber speakers does not equate to ethnic Berbers.

In relation to the last point, it is important to note that there is a distinction between ethnicity and genetics, and there shouldn't be intertwining of the two. Genetics and Berberist assertions aside, ethnic estimates generally approximate that 65-70% of Moroccans identify as part of the Arab ethnic group. This is what constitutes the basis for determining ethnicity. Skitash (talk) 21:22, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree with being cautious, especially given the contentious nature of ethnicity in Morocco (as in many other places). It might help to know where the cited source ([23]) obtained its figures to begin with and which other reliable sources cite the same or similar figures. If the census doesn't ask for ethnic identification, then where is this coming from? R Prazeres (talk) 18:30, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

It's worth noting the cited source seems to be a business brochure rather than a demographic review. For information, here's the questionaire used for the latest census in 2014, with no mention of ethnicity.

A point I ommited is that surveys like the AfroBarometer and ArabBarometer are done through the internet, hence privileging people living in urban centers and creating an inherent bias against more rural Berbers and Sahrawis. NAADAAN (talk) 18:41, 11 December 2023 (UTC)