Talk:Czech Republic

Rename to Czechia as Germany, France, Slovakia or Poland

This article is about the country Czechia with its more than a thousand-year long history. Thus, it should be named Czechia (similarly to other countries). A strong argument of linguists from Czechia is, that Czechia (as well as other short names) refers to the country whatever the political system was while the Czech Republic is the name which is used for the country from its creation in 1993 and refers to its political system. Pažo (talk) 09:46, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Because of repeated past discussions on this, you'll find them linked among the templates above on this talkpage, there is some bureaucracy involved. Check the earlier discussions to get a sense of what is involved, and start the WP:RM#CM when you're ready. The last one, Talk:Czech_Republic/Archive_10#Requested_move_25_July_2021, was in 2021, so there is no rule against starting a new one.

Note that what matters on en-WP regarding article-titles is "What is it generally called in English-language WP:RS?", more at WP:COMMONNAME and WP:PLACE. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:06, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Czech Wikipedia is slowly warming up... It WILL happen, English Wikipedia is just scared to allow it prematurely. Chrz (talk) 17:13, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

I agree that it should be re-named to Czechia.

IOC uses Czechia - https://olympics.com/ioc/czechia

EU uses Czechia - https://european-union.europa.eu/principles-countries-history/country-profiles_en

Eurovision uses Czechia - https://eurovision.tv/countries

UEFA uses Czechia - https://www.uefa.com/nationalassociations/uefarankings/country/seasons/#/yr/2023

UN uses Czechia - https://www.un.org/en/about-us/member-states#gotoC

NATO uses Czechia - https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/nato_countries.htm Thomediter (talk) 20:40, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

It proves that the argument "No one is using Czechia" is now obsolete. But it is not enough, since all those sources use Türkiye without any significant effect on Wikipedia. (Turkey changed one short name to another, Czech Republic added nonexistent short name, but it is the same thing for Wikipedia). Chrz (talk) 15:12, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Doesn't that just mean Turkey should be changed aswell, instead of meaning that this shouldn't be changed? Thomediter (talk) 20:25, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Per WP:OTHERCONTENT, it doesn't have to mean either. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:34, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Alright so then let's leave Türkiye out of this discussion. Still what arguments exist in favor of retaining the name Czech Republic, when almost no organziations do that anymore. Thomediter (talk) 22:20, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Try ghits. Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:16, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

One argument is offered by the Czech government itself, in its predominate use of "Czech Republic" on its English-language website. Their own lack of urgency over it suggests to me that the people here who have pounded the most heatedly for changing the title of the article, especially the ones who have described the failure to change it an insult, are fretting way more over this than the situation merits. Largoplazo (talk) 23:20, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

That website doesn't appear to have a lot effort put into it.

I think that IOC, EU, Eurovision, UEFA, UN, NATO using Czechia, along with an overwhelming win of support in the Talk:Czech Republic#Rename to Czechia, is more than enough to make the change. Thomediter (talk) 00:37, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

You mean "Government of the Czech Republic"? It is the official name, same as Government of the Slovak Republic and it means nothing against Slovakia. Ministry of foreign affairs uses Czechia (on Twitter too)so... foreign affair it is. And BTW when government uses it Wiki says "it does not matter" (eg. Türkiye case). When government does not use it Wiki says "it does not matter". So leave this argument since it is not decisive. Chrz (talk) 07:13, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes! Now is there anything left to argue for why it shouldn’t be renamed? Thomediter (talk) 09:08, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

What was your finding re ghits for COMMONNAME? I did a rough-and-ready one but even after some heavy refining, starting at 6.5:1 against is not a promising start for Czechia. FWIW, it's my preferred term but that counts for nothing here and this is not a place to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Mutt Lunker (talk) 10:20, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

[1] is one argument. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:49, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

IOC, EU, EBU, UEFA, UN NATO > Google Books Thomediter (talk) 11:33, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

That's one way to look at it. We'll see when the next WP:RM#CM is closed. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:40, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

IOC, EU, EBU, UEFA, UN NATO (2023) > Google Books (2019) Chrz (talk) 11:45, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

That's one way to look at it. We'll see when the next WP:RM#CM is closed. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:46, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

You mean previous RM, where majority supported the move? Since it is only one piece of puzzle, we won't know. We know what does not matter - name of authorities. And you mean previous RM, where majority supported the move? Google results, English, last month - Czech Republic 19.6 M, Czechia 4.6 M. Still "behind" but far better than obsolete Ngram results would suggest. Chrz (talk) 12:14, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

I have no idea if you counted the Talk:Czech_Republic/Archive_10#Requested_move_25_July_2021 majority right or not, but per the 2021 closing comment "While a headcount might suggest that both sides are even, this is not a headcount.", it doesn't matter in the WP-context, does it? The next WP:RM#CM will take care of itself. But yes, per your WP:GOOGLETEST, behind. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:41, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Of course it is not a vote.

I can see that in possible RM no one would be impressed with the changes which happened since the last try like IIHF or IOC... even though there are not a lot of places left where it could be changed now. Registered nearly everywhere, now to boost the usage numbers in newspaper and other media.

BTW that government issue: Czechia.eu - official site, not a thing in 2021 during last RM, now it exists. #VisitCzechia is a "rebranded" government agency campaign (for the time being it is still hosted under visitczechrepublic.com, but visitczechia.com is a redirect, maybe it will be switched soon). So there is a lot of effort visible. Chrz (talk) 15:31, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

What is the next step? I don't think it makes sense to keep "Czech Republic" now, so do you know what can be done? Thomediter (talk) 23:16, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

I don't know. Wait until BBC or CNN have no choice but to accept the "new" name, at least for sports and competitions? Chrz (talk) 15:00, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång BTW, if it is not a vote, why a lot of people even bother to comment it with "Oppose/Support, same as the other dude above. Signature. Date."? Such opinions without any new argument are... useless. Chrz (talk) 14:59, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Well you know, some people like to comment on talkpages:[2], a fewer some almost exclusively. The closer will give such comments the weight they think appropriate. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:53, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

I was not the one who used such voting answer, but feel free to kick. Chrz (talk) 16:15, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

2019 is hardly an argument for 2023 situation. It would leave a lot of renamings on Wikipedia in the past since Ngram is years behind. Chrz (talk) 11:42, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, I'd support this move. Now is the time. With many major sources, especially international events, using Czechia, I think we should move the page. Czechia is how the country is presenting itself on the global stage, and is how it's being referred to. In reference to the BBC style guide, they have always been very slow to adopt change, slower than WP in a lot of places. -Asheiou (they/them • talk) 22:41, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

I think part of the problem for native English speakers is that Czechia doesn't correspond to English morphology. The adjectival form of countries ending in 'ia' is always 'ian', so Bulgarian, Slovakian, Austrian etc. I can't think of any exceptions apart from 'Ozzie' for Australia but that is slang. Czech is the adjectival form, not Czechian. I think for many native speakers to accept it you would have to change the adjective as well, which is an uphill struggle. Gedney2001 (talk) 07:06, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

The term Slovak exists come to think of it, but you wouldn't normally use that for the language in the nominal form and Slovakian is totally acceptable and probably the most common form. Gedney2001 (talk) 07:26, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Pretty sure Slovak is more correct; I can't attest to more used. But their language is Slovak, as you can quickly search. You don't have to look far for other examples, because you have the Serbs of Serbia and Croats of Croatia. Although these are mixed cases, since those people speak Serbian and Croatian, respectively. More similar cases to Czech include the Kalmyks of Kalmykia, Buryats of Buryati, and Gagauz of Gagauzia. CouchTomato (talk) 00:19, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

@Gedney2001: If someone has problem with the adjective "Czech", he can try to promote "Czechian" or "Czech-Republican" instead of that (but there is no valid reason to support such artificial constructs). However, the substantive "Czechia" (historically documented long before the Czech Republic was founded) is not affected by that problem and is irreplaceable in its function as a timeless non-political geographical name. As well as "France" can mean French Kingdom as well as whatever of the French republics, Czechia means group of Czech lands independently of the political arrangement: the core lands of the Bohemian Crown during the monarchy, Czechia as a part of the unitary Czechoslovakia, Czechia as the occupied Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia, Czechia as the member republic of the federative Czechoslovakia, as well as the independent Czech Republic. The political arrangement and establishment changes, the territorial demarcation may change, but the core meaning of the identity of Czechia remains the same, at least since the baroque times, when the concept "Czech" and "Czechia" (based on the nationality) began to assert itself alongside the concepts "Bohemian" and "Bohemia" (based on the manor establishment, and on the Celtic prehistory of the area). In a certain sense, Germany and Italy can also be perceived as timeless concepts, even though they did not exist as unified independent states (kingdoms, principalities, republics) before the 19th century. "Czechia" and "Czech Republic" are two different concepts, although in some specific limited contexts one of them may be represented by the other. To the context in which non-political geographical names of countries are preferred, the choice of the non-political geographical name of the country is clearly appropriate. There exists only one such designation in English, and that is "Czechia". Regardless of how well-known this designation is among the less educated people. It is true that from a grammatical point of view and from the point of view of English spelling, this name has some specifics, but that is given historically that it's not written "Chekhia" or "Tschehia". --ŠJů (talk) 17:24, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

After RM-close discussion

@Mike Cline: "The reality is however that both the current title and the proposed title are valid monikers for the article and readers are very unlikely to fail to find the article, regardless of which title prevails." With closure like this, the title which got more votes should win! You admin that both options are possible and the next attempt should not be discussion but plain voting. Or figure out different closing statement which shows that one of the options is worse.Chrz (talk) 16:41, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

I stand by my close. I suggest you review: Wikipedia:Consensus#No_consensus_after_discussion and WP:DEM. Mike Cline (talk) 18:21, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Hm, previous closings were more detailed with explaining "what went wrong". Here: I can see that someone disagree with the move, so no consensus, closed.

Discussion about new title - no consensus. Moratorium - also no consensus, but approved. Nice. Chrz (talk) 19:52, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

I would like to know, what exactly the consensus should look like. Should it be like 3/5 of the comments? Martin Tauchman (talk) 20:09, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Doesn't matter if the closer don't consider the arguments inline with PAG. IMO, you'd have a decent case when the graphs at [3] has changed place for, say 6 months or so. And perhaps ngrams will get more useful. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:54, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

As I read it: Usually weight of the arguments. But here closing speech (still: IMHO) said that both parties were persuasive, both titles are OK without clear winner, it is a tie, so the winner is the status quo. I said that in that case the number of votes should be measured, sure with some advantage for status quo, but more than 2/3 would be excessive. Chrz (talk) 20:55, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Per my count, the number of s/o was 29/16, so you had the 3/5, but the closer still didn't close the way you wanted. As has been said, not a vote. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:00, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Next time it will be a vote. We already know from discussion, that both are equally good, next time let's prove it by voting which is more popular. Chrz (talk) 21:11, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

No. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:18, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes. With the same cards (arguments) Czech Republic would not win Czechia->Czech Republic move request, so we value the old and stable whatever it is until enough sources or people say that obsoleteness is no longer a quality. Chrz (talk) 21:24, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, but I have a question of my own. I read your closing statement as that you didn't re-instate a moratorium, you just noted that you think it's a good idea. Is that your message? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:54, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

From my closing statement: The suggestion of a moratorium on future title change requests is a sound one. Article is move protected for 6 months. Please refrain from initiating RMs until the protection is removed.. That’s about a close to establishing a moratorium as I think possible. Sorry for your confusion.Mike Cline (talk) 18:12, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, just to add, I don't think 6 months is long enough. Do you really think it would be productive or a good use of Wikipedians' time to hold another RM on this topic in November? I suggest upping to a year, then see where we're at. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 18:27, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

@Amakuru: - The 6 month protection reflects my view that this WP:COMMONNAME discussion was by and large civil. Unlike a recent MRV close I made where the discussion was much more contentious and resulted in a 1 year protection. Name changes like this take time to sort themselves and I trust editors will remain civil and studious when the protection ends. Mike Cline (talk) 19:23, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

@Mike Cline: alright thanks for the response. As you say, it's been reasonably good natured and hasn't descended into personal bickering. Hopefully editors will wait a reasonable time for a fresh RM even without the restriction in place, assuming there's no major seismic shift soon. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 20:52, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

And for the next time around, we have a new contender: the Czechia! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:05, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

You were laughing, that olympic commitee did not use Czechia on one random page you selected. Fellow wikipedist wrote them and they changed it (as you can see, we have the power :D) ... Republic is gone, but "the" stayed by mistake. So it will be fixed on the second attempt, big deal, as for the civil manners, one typo occurrence cannot be a contender for move request, just a joke I do not find funny. Chrz (talk) 21:18, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

IMHO, it was just a case of older text that someone just forgot to change. No big deal. Martin Tauchman (talk) 23:07, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Agree, but the update was funny per the WP/tail wagging the dog context. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:53, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Even the Czech Wikipedia version of the article is "Česko" (Czechia). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.173.96.224 (talk) 20:45, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Etymology factually wrong

The current version states the following: The current English name comes from the Polish ethnonym associated with the area, which ultimately comes from the Czech word Čech. there are 3 sources added to this claim:

Colins English dictionary from Czech Čech, spelling perhaps influenced by Polish Czech or New Latin Czechus this does NOT support the statement

American Heritage Dictionary Ultimately (partly via New Latin Czechiānus) from Old Czech Czech, a Czech (Modern CzechČech). this does NOT support the statement, it states the opposite

Oxford English Ductionary - citation leads to todays dictionary.com from Polish, from Czech Čech this does NOT support the statement, it only gives 2 separate posibilities

In summary none of the citations supports the statement in a clear way, most of them contradict the statement. This factually unsupported statement needs to be removed.

A separate question is, what the real origin is then. It is unlikely to find 1 answer as there are several opinions available: - comes directly from the Czech language as the words Czech and Czechia had been spelled as Cžech and Cžesko until the 19th century when the present version Čech and Česko became used. - comes from Latin Czechus as this had been used in chronicles since the middle ages - comes from Polish Czech which seems nowadays least realistic as historical texts from Czechia are older than from Poland, the oldest Polish books originate from nowadays Czech territory and such country name would be very new. This contradicts the centuries old history of the word Czechus used in Latin. 82.25.72.250 (talk) 21:18, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Hurrah, someone at American Heritage and Collins seems to have found the time to dig a bit deeper! (The reason that statement was in the article before is because previously all three dictionaries just assumed it came from Polish). I've cut the sentence down and removed the out of date quotes from the cites. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 00:35, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Also fixed at Name of the Czech Republic, where the old definitions were still quotes in the cites too. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 00:42, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 November 2023

Another religion is paganism and 2% Ingrid Ní Boii (talk) 08:25, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The figures that are there already add up, with rounding, to 100%, and are attributed to a source. We would need a new source, one that is either newer or, for some reason, better, to provide a new, complete breakdown, not just a percentage for one religion while ignoring the others. Largoplazo (talk) 12:38, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

@Ingrid Ní Boii and Largoplazo: In the 2021 census, neopaganism (including druidism) was declared by ca 3000 citizens. That's about 0,03 % of population. No sources or common experience suggest a significantly higher proportion. A mere inclination to re-enact, paraphrase or mention pagan folklore doesn't mean exclusive affiliation to a pagan religion. Authentic original paganism did not behave in any other form than through integration into Christian traditions. Btw., if we do not think of belonging to some traditions, ideas or religions as exclusive and sharply determined, then the sum does not have to be 100%. It is the same with language, nationality or citizenship. --ŠJů (talk) 17:45, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

What arguments for keeping Czech Republic as the name - still stands strong today?

More and more, the country is referred to as Czechia. I myself was a part of the RM discussion, which rejected the move. I am interested in whether we could have some comments surrounding the page name arguing for why it should be not be changed. If not, I think it's in it's place to once again reconsider the page name.

Bests, thomediter Thomediter (talk) 16:43, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Please see the above discussion, #Rename to Czechia as Germany, France, Slovakia or Poland, and all the previous discussions in this talk page's archives before suggesting a move, and, if you do suggest a move, have evidence that the situation has evolved since this was last discussed here only 8 months ago. Please do not antagonize everyone with this article on their watchlist by rehashing old arguments without consideration as to whether there are new developments that would warrant a different outcome. Largoplazo (talk) 16:52, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Fwiw, Google trends hasn't changed much since last discussion. Consider checking and considering again 6-12 months after the 2024 Summer Olympics, since the last Eurovision obviously didn't do the trick [4]. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:27, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

And the Czechia still lives! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:35, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång It has died today. Today I wrote there, today they solved it. Often, it is better to try to correct mistakes and alert the person making them rather than mocking them. But it was still just a false problem, why not allow Czechia on Wikipedia because someone random used it with "the", another false problem will appear right away >:| Chrz (talk) 15:05, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Still funny that it was the about-page of that org. Oh well, there's always memorials like [5]. Fwiw, I don't consider me mentioning a typo at their website "mocking" the Czech Olympic Committee. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:59, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Consider writing the EU next, there are 4 "the Czechia" at [6]. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:12, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Change "Czech Republic" to "Czechia". And they did. The word "The" is not used on signs and plates even for countries with "the," right?! I don't know what's so special about "that" org. It's as if this one subpage is supposed to be more important only when it's wrong. Now that it's right, it's OBVIOUSLY insignificant and secondary >:/ I also wrote to the EU, now we'll see the differences in communication with institutions. Although again, if (when) the EU page gets it right, it will miraculously become insignificant. Chrz (talk) 20:34, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree a lot with what Chrz is saying Thomediter (talk) 21:47, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

I am not trying to restart RM, I just wish the practice would end where insignificant obstacles are put in the way, meaning sources that have a miraculous power "against" but then have no weight "for". Either they are important for any party in the dispute or they are not important at all and it's not worth discussing them here. Chrz (talk) 22:31, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Eventually, the page will be re-named Czechia. Remember it took quite a few RMs (and years) to finally get Burma re-named Myanmar. GoodDay (talk) 20:36, 14 December 2023 (UTC)