Talk:Czech Republic/Archive 9
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Preparation for the inevitable RM
It's extremely likely that there will be an RM in the first few days after the moratorium expires; I've considered requesting it myself. Because the sources given in 2019 were insufficient to move the page, it stands to reason that sources postdating the RM are necessary to get the discussion off the ground. And as I see it, the moratorium doesn't prevent us from collecting sources before 29 November. O.N.R. (talk) 05:24, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- Such collecting should not be done on this page. This is the sort of thing your sandbox is for. --Khajidha (talk) 15:13, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- Well, we can always hope people decide not to bother. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:22, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
- As you can see, the moratorium expired, no "inevitable" RM happened. People know better and do not want to waste their "once per year try" until something decisive occurs. And some people also proposed longer moratoriums next time, so why waste it now. Now it only has slow and steady growth below the threshold, maybe, nothing too exciting for Wikipedia. Events like Olympics may help, but as I can tell there won't be any surprise/change there. Or do you think your new collection of sources will be persuasive, more convincing than last year, convincing enough to really move? Well, French Wikipedia switched, 4 years after introduction of the short name, I know it has zero effect on English Wikipedia, but hey, something :) So no, I would advice others not to waste the RM try. Chrzwzcz (talk) 23:27, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- Collecting sources on a talk page in preparation for a discussion is discussion. Collect them elsewhere, of course, whenever and wherever you want, but please not here. I'm sure there's nothing preventing you from being able to wait that long. Largoplazo (talk) 21:58, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
- This change will come, though. Over the last decade, the arguments on this talk page from those who were opposed to the change have gone from "Czechia isn't a word" to "It will never catch on" to "It will never be the majority use" to "It's not the majority use YET." And they're right, it isn't yet, and until it is at least very common in many different circles, we don't change. Those are Wikipedia's rules. --Doric Loon (talk) 22:11, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
- Does anybody use eSwatini? CzechReb (talk) 17:01, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
- This change will come, though. Over the last decade, the arguments on this talk page from those who were opposed to the change have gone from "Czechia isn't a word" to "It will never catch on" to "It will never be the majority use" to "It's not the majority use YET." And they're right, it isn't yet, and until it is at least very common in many different circles, we don't change. Those are Wikipedia's rules. --Doric Loon (talk) 22:11, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
- It’s time to change the name of the article. Czechia is obviously going to prevail everywhere. You can find it even in wikipedia more and more often. The short-form name hasn’t won yet but its ultimate victory is inevitable. You can delay the change but you can’t prevent it. CzechReb (talk) 16:58, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
- Wikipedia doesn't strive to stay ahead of the curve but to follow it. The time to change it will be when "Czechia" has prevailed, not when people declare it obvious (to them) that it will prevail. Largoplazo (talk) 17:03, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
- Did wikipedia follow the curve in the case of eSwatini? CzechReb (talk) 18:43, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
- If it didn't, then the place to address that is at the Eswatini article. Doing wrong in one place does not justify doing wrong elsewhere. --Khajidha (talk) 19:04, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
- I don’t understand one thing. Eswatini has been moved (I don't oppose it) but Czechia is forbidden altogether. Even using of this word is forbidden and punished. Although it is an official name by the decision of the Czech government. Our government decided that we can use it. So what is more authoritative? A government‘s decision or a wikipedia’s decision? CzechReb (talk) 19:51, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
- On Wikipedia? Wikipedia's decision. --Khajidha (talk) 20:14, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
- And governments that don't like WP:s decions block WP in their country. It's the established whatever. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:33, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
- Has any country actually blocked Wikipedia for naming them contrary to their official name? Largoplazo (talk) 22:29, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
- Not that I know of. Turkey and China had other reasons. India recently rumbled a bit about a map used on WP, and Pakistan about content they didn't like. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:08, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- Has any country actually blocked Wikipedia for naming them contrary to their official name? Largoplazo (talk) 22:29, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
- 2Khajidha That’s what I wanted to hear. Your community rules are above a government’s decision. A decision of a few wikipedians is more binding than a decision of a state government which has been voted by millions of people. Thank you very much for your response. CzechReb (talk) 08:40, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- Somewhat reassuring, isn't it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:08, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- Why would you expect any different? Wikipedia is not a Czech company or in any way related to the country. By what logic would you contend that the Czech government would have jurisdiction over our actions? --Khajidha (talk) 10:17, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- It’s not a matter of jurisdiction. Naturally you don’t have to obey to any of the Czech government’s decision. But your striking disrespect to the recommendation relating to our short-form name is really startling. Ouh I’ve forgotten you are those who decide what is our country’s name not our government. You are treating us like a colony. CzechReb (talk) 16:23, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- Perhaps The ministry of the interior of the Czech Republic can advise you on how to proceed. Or the government of same. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:43, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- Haha, again with this very bad example, very bad. Ministry will always use political name in its title, that is what is designed for, my god. Political name - government. Simple as that. Eg. Slovakia also uses Slovak Republic for its political institutions in English (and Slovak) and it is not a point against short name! (BTW Czech Minister of Foreign Affair uses "Czechia" a lot in his tweets.) To sum up: I don't say it is time to rename the article, but: to be fair and do not expect short name on places designed for political name. You can mock Czechia for not using its short name in places like sport or turism, but hardly in the names of ministries (or on passports). Chrz (talk) 21:12, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- So when the gov use Czech Republic it's ok, but when en-WP does it it's colonialism? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 22:15, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- What?! The name of the authority in English is "Government of the Czech Republic". You can say things like Czech government, government of Czechia, but official name is still "Government of the Czech Republic". Government can use both Czechia and Czech Republic, but it can't say its official name contains Czechia, it does not. "Government of the Slovak Republic" - same thing and no effect for its short name in English here. Chrz (talk) 15:44, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
- So, The ministry of the interior of the Czech Republic will not change its name, it is political authority so and uses political name of the country in its TITLE (in Czech too), simple as that. But it does not stop it to use Czechia everywhere else other than in its own name, eg. here. Do not search for names of institutions, search for press releases and news articles. Chrz (talk) 22:01, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
- So when the gov use Czech Republic it's ok, but when en-WP does it it's colonialism? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 22:15, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- Haha, again with this very bad example, very bad. Ministry will always use political name in its title, that is what is designed for, my god. Political name - government. Simple as that. Eg. Slovakia also uses Slovak Republic for its political institutions in English (and Slovak) and it is not a point against short name! (BTW Czech Minister of Foreign Affair uses "Czechia" a lot in his tweets.) To sum up: I don't say it is time to rename the article, but: to be fair and do not expect short name on places designed for political name. You can mock Czechia for not using its short name in places like sport or turism, but hardly in the names of ministries (or on passports). Chrz (talk) 21:12, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- Again: Absolutely nothing will be done to change the applicable guidelines, ever, based on discussions taking place here. Setting that aside, (a) you continue to ignore that "Czech Republic" is still an official name of the country, so your argument against that name on the grounds that we should use the official name is absurd, and (b) nobody here is deciding what the name of the country is, we are observing what people are calling it. If you're going to argue about it (wherever you argue about it), at least argue over what's actually happening, not over a fictitious scenario you have in your head. If you don't like that reliable sources aren't calling it "Czechia" yet, go argue it with them. (c) I await your comments about the gross disrespect [sarcasm intended] shown by the Czech people for the people of Deutschland and Österreich by naming Wikipedia articles about those countries "Německo" and "Rakousko". Largoplazo (talk) 17:08, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- Also, let's talk about the massive disrespect shown even by the Czech people toward the Czech people by daring to name their own embassy in Washington "Embassy of the Czech Republic" on its own home page to this very day.[1] This massive self-disrespect must not be tolerated one instant longer! Largoplazo (talk) 17:25, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- Embassy of the United States, Prague — Preceding unsigned comment added by CzechReb (talk • contribs) 18:13, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- Wow. The gaslighting in this conversation is ridiculous. talk, those sarcastic comments completely miss the point, as talk has clearly explained. I think you should step back from this discussion and any role in decision-making on this question until you can be rational and adhere to WP:WQ. Elcalebo (talk) 18:04, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- No, we are not saying we decide what your country's name is. We are saying that we will decide how to translate that name into our language. Obviously the Czech government has no power to control words in a language not their own. If anything, it is your position that is showing massive disrespect towards the English language community. --Khajidha (talk) 18:19, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- The English language community would like to call the Czech republic by its short-form name. I just want to give those people an opportunity to do it. CzechReb (talk) 18:37, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- Ah. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:44, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- If the English language community wanted to call the Czech Republic by its short-form name there wouldn't be such difficulty in finding sources that do so. --Khajidha (talk) 18:46, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- Well, to be fair, it's not that hard. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:55, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- In a large enough quantity to displace the Czech Republic as the standard usage? --Khajidha (talk) 19:00, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- No, I was just quibbling on your choice of words, as in it's not difficult to find en-sources that use Czechia. But it's even easier to find en-souces that use Czech republic. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:10, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- In a large enough quantity to displace the Czech Republic as the standard usage? --Khajidha (talk) 19:00, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- Well, to be fair, it's not that hard. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:55, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- The English language community would like to call the Czech republic by its short-form name. I just want to give those people an opportunity to do it. CzechReb (talk) 18:37, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- Perhaps The ministry of the interior of the Czech Republic can advise you on how to proceed. Or the government of same. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:43, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- It’s not a matter of jurisdiction. Naturally you don’t have to obey to any of the Czech government’s decision. But your striking disrespect to the recommendation relating to our short-form name is really startling. Ouh I’ve forgotten you are those who decide what is our country’s name not our government. You are treating us like a colony. CzechReb (talk) 16:23, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- Why would you expect any different? Wikipedia is not a Czech company or in any way related to the country. By what logic would you contend that the Czech government would have jurisdiction over our actions? --Khajidha (talk) 10:17, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- Somewhat reassuring, isn't it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:08, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- And governments that don't like WP:s decions block WP in their country. It's the established whatever. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:33, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
- "Czechia" is an official name, so that should dispense with any objection to us using another name that is also an official name. Your government saying you can use it doesn't mean that anybody has to. Even if the your government had decreed to Czechs (because nobody else is subject to their command) "Thou shalt not ever again call this country 'The Czech Republic'" and had asked international organizations to list them as "Czechia" alone, the consensus that Wikipedians have come to for Wikipedia's purposes is that we don't go by what's "authoritative". We go by what's in predominate use. WP:COMMONNAME, which captures this consensus, has the details. Largoplazo (talk) 22:29, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
- We go by what's in predominate use. A truly scientific approach. CzechReb (talk) 08:33, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- That's how the English language works. --Khajidha (talk) 10:17, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- It's unclear what you think science has to do with it. Was the addition of the shorter name in 2016 the result of a scientific discovery? For that matter, have you ever complained on Czech Wikipedia that they keep using the titles "Německo" and "Rakousko" instead of the more "scientific" "Deutschland" and "Österreich"?
- You should take any further debate on the guideline itself to Wikipedia talk:Article titles, as that's the only place where discussion can lead to a change in these guidelines. No discussion here can lead to their alteration. Largoplazo (talk) 12:12, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- We go by what's in predominate use. A truly scientific approach. CzechReb (talk) 08:33, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- On Wikipedia? Wikipedia's decision. --Khajidha (talk) 20:14, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
Wikipedia doesn't strive to stay ahead of the curve but to follow it.
While this is generally true, article names are partially an exception - see WP:NAMECHANGES, particularlywhen this occurs, we give extra weight to reliable sources written after the name change.
We still need to see sources indicating that the name has changed, but we often update article names very quickly when it's clear that it has. --Aquillion (talk) 20:12, 1 February 2021 (UTC)- What you prescribe is properly described as following the curve, consistent with my remarks. I didn't say years behind. Largoplazo (talk) 21:15, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- So, again, show us that the preponderance of NEW sources use Czechia. Note that articles that basically say "Hey guys, it would be really neat-o if you would call us Czechia" don't count. We need to see things like "Czechia joins coalition against ISIS" or "COVID-19 cases in Czechia are down" or "take your next vacation in Czechia", etc. Use of the name, not mention of (and pleading for usage) it. --Khajidha (talk) 20:34, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- Agreed.(KIENGIR (talk) 07:38, 2 February 2021 (UTC))
- Here are 20 examples of news headlines in the past 3 weeks:
- Agreed.(KIENGIR (talk) 07:38, 2 February 2021 (UTC))
- Did wikipedia follow the curve in the case of eSwatini? CzechReb (talk) 18:43, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
- Wikipedia doesn't strive to stay ahead of the curve but to follow it. The time to change it will be when "Czechia" has prevailed, not when people declare it obvious (to them) that it will prevail. Largoplazo (talk) 17:03, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
Badly hit Czechia lines up China's Sinopharm COVID-19 vaccine: https://newseu.cgtn.com/news/2021-03-04/Badly-hit-Czechia-lines-up-China-s-Sinopharm-COVID-19-vaccine-YmeUprCO4w/index.html, Czechia orders Chinese vaccine Sinopharm: https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/short_news/czechia-orders-chinese-vaccine-sinopharm/ Czechia considers using Russian vaccine without EMA approval: https://www.intellinews.com/czechia-considers-using-russian-vaccine-without-ema-approval-204370/ Skoda Highlights Enyaq iV Features In Beautiful Czechia: https://insideevs.com/news/491474/skoda-enyaq-iv-features-highlights/ France's AstraZeneca U-turn, checkpoints in Czechia : COVID-19 daily bulletin: https://newseu.cgtn.com/news/2021-03-02/France-s-AstraZeneca-U-turn-Czechia-s-checkpoints-COVID-19-bulletin-Yj1gpbs0p2/index.html Romanian IT group Bittnet expands abroad with acquisition in Czechia: https://www.romania-insider.com/bittnet-expands-czech-rep-march-2021 Czechia records highest per-capita COVID-19 case rate worldwide: https://www.dailysabah.com/world/europe/czechia-records-highest-per-capita-covid-19-case-rate-worldwide Czechia Adds Spain, Portugal & Madeira to Its List of COVID-19 High-Risk Countries: https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/czechia-adds-spain-portugal-madeira-to-its-list-of-covid-19-high-risk-countries/ Czechs tighten lockdown amid virus surge: https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/health/czechs-tighten-lockdown-amid-virus-surge-ng-s-2051297 Antivirus Software For PC Market Including Top Key Players AVG Technologies CZ, S.R.O., (Czechia): https://www.expresskeeper.com/2021/02/26/antivirus-software-for-pc-market-including-top-key-players-avg-technologies-cz-s-r-o-czechia/ Rangers fans delighted as Europa League last 16 lands trip to Czechia: https://www.rangersnews.uk/news/rangers-fans-delighted-as-europa-league-last-16-lands-trip-to-czechia/ Democracy Digest: Czechia and Poland Mine Rich Seam of Antagonism: https://balkaninsight.com/2021/02/26/democracy-digest-czechia-and-poland-mine-rich-seam-of-antagonism/ Israel donates vaccines to Czechia in exchange for diplomatic support: https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/short_news/israel-donates-vaccines-to-czechia-in-exchange-for-diplomatic-support/ Czechia sues Poland over planned lignite mine expansion: https://www.endseurope.com/article/1708185/czechia-sues-poland-planned-lignite-mine-expansion Czech power corporation CEZ eyes acquisition of Vodafone Czechia – report: https://www.telecompaper.com/news/czech-power-corporation-cez-eyes-acquisition-of-vodafone-czechia-report--1373467 Taiwan-donated face mask production line arrives in Czechia: https://focustaiwan.tw/politics/202102230026 News digest: Food industry giant changes hands, new rules for travelling to Czechia: https://spectator.sme.sk/c/22602782/news-digest-food-industry-giant-changes-hands-new-rules-for-travelling-to-czechia.html France's Macron in Africa vaccine plea, Czechia postpones easing: COVID-19 daily bulletin: https://newseu.cgtn.com/news/2021-02-19/Macron-s-Africa-vaccine-plea-Czechia-stalls-easing-COVID-19-bulletin-Y0LVPjd8go/index.html Radar Camera Market Is Booming Worldwide | RAMET a.s. (Czechia), Robert Bosch GmbH (Germany), Beltronics (United States): https://jumbonews.co.uk/uncategorised/1875143/radar-camera-market-is-booming-worldwide-ramet-a-s-czechia-robert-bosch-gmbh-germany-beltronics-united-states/ Border controls with Czechia, Austria necessary, German gov’t says: https://www.laprensalatina.com/border-controls-with-czechia-austria-necessary-german-govt-says/ Germany Reimposes Border Controls With Czechia & Austria Due to COVID-19: https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/germany-reimposes-border-controls-with-czechia-austria-due-to-covid-19/ Geog25 (talk) 10:53, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
- And here are other NEW examples of the usage of Czechia in the sense demanded above: "Use of the name, not mention of (and pleading for usage) it." This is not exhaustive in any way. If you need, more sources can be listed.
https://www.state.gov/countries-areas/czechia/ https://history.state.gov/countries/czech-republic https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/czechia/ https://www.euro.who.int/en/countries/czechia https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/region/czechia https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/czech-republic/ https://www.worlddata.info/europe/czechia/index.php https://en.unesco.org/countries/czechia https://www.prb.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/2018_WPDS.pdf https://reliefweb.int/country/cze https://population.un.org/wpp/Publications/Files/WPP2019_DataBooklet.pdf http://www.populationeurope.org/en/ https://oec.world/en/profile/country/cze https://fragilestatesindex.org/myfsi/myfsi-country-analysis/ https://www.visionofhumanity.org/maps/#/ https://www.gbif.org/country/CZ/summary https://www.iso.org/obp/ui/#iso:code:3166:CZ https://data.unicef.org/country/cze/ http://www.universalperiodicreview.org/en/review/Czechia https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/countries/member-countries/czechia_en https://www.amazingczechia.com/ https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/main/search?p_p_id=estatsearchportlet_WAR_estatsearchportlet&p_p_lifecycle=1&p_p_state=maximized&p_p_mode=view&_estatsearchportlet_WAR_estatsearchportlet_action=search&_estatsearchportlet_WAR_estatsearchportlet_theme=empty&_estatsearchportlet_WAR_estatsearchportlet_collection=empty&p_auth=CgNrfhFv&text=Czechia Geog25 (talk) 12:14, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
- Google Ngrams have been updated to 2019, and a query shows that Czechia has barely registered there. Unless you can show that "Czech Republic" has fallen into disuse in the past year, I think any requested move at this time will be a nonstarter. Rather than showing that some sources use "Czechia", I think the path would be to (1) cite any recent event which caused a titanic shift in usage and (2) require supporters of the status quo to prove that "Czech Republic" is still in common usage, and if they are unable to show recent sources using "Czech Republic" then the article will be more likely to be moved. – wbm1058 (talk) 17:10, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
RfC about the name of this country
- The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
- Per the RFC and RM support pages on Wikipedia:
"RfC is a process for requesting outside input concerning disputes, policies, guidelines or article content."
"Requested moves (RM) is a process for requesting the retitling (moving) of an article, template, or project page on Wikipedia."
The request is out of scope for an RfC, and a Request to Move (WP:RM) should have been filed instead. Closing without comment on the merits. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 16:40, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Early closure to decline the proposal, for two main reasons: first, due to the overwhelming (near-unanimous) consensus against it. Second, the proposal itself appears to be a misplaced move request (one which, it should be noted, is of a perennial nature). El_C 16:45, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
What should this country be referred to as across Wikipedia? Should the example of Eswatini be followed, or Vietnam? Hentheden (talk) 10:25, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
- This RfC doesn't make much sense. Eswatini and Vietnam are referred to across Wikipedia as Eswatini and Vietnam respectively. Presumably the Czech Republic should be referred to as the Czech Republic. CMD (talk) 11:08, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
- I was referring to the processes that led to them being referred to by the at the time not-particularly-used but official, registered-with-the-UN name of Eswatini (rather than Swaziland), and that in the case of Vietnam, the more commonly used English name (but not the official name of the country, which is Viet Nam in the UN) - that the discussion should include the title of the articles along with their use in the articles. Hentheden (talk) 13:09, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
- Our naming convention has nothing to do with what the UN says. No name for Eswatini is particularly commonly used (people don't refer to the place very often) but it was judged at RM that Eswatini had crossed the threshold of WP:COMMONNAME in post-rename sources as required by policy, particularly taking account of WP:ENGVAR given that Eswatini is an English-speaking country. If you feel that judgement was incorrect, you are of course welcome to open a new RM at Talk:Eswatini. Kahastok talk 14:35, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
- It would be nice to see some discussion on this talkpage that's not about the name of this country. Perhaps we should consider making a separate page for those discussions, like Talk:Muhammad/images. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:25, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
- It is OK to have this centralized. Otherwise we have similar discussions here, on History of, Music of, Culture of pages etc. Usually the name of the article about the country means name of derived articles, but this is an exception, it just happens when you choose a political name for an article. Exception has to be kept but properly documented. Czech lands in these cases (Bohemia in these cases), adjective form Czech in these cases, Czech Republic in these, globally. Chrz (talk) 11:34, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
- When an essentially identical discussion, started by the same individual, was closed less than two weeks ago, the conclusion was that we should follow our own guidelines and refer to the Czech Republic. In this way, we follow the example of both Eswatini and Vietnam. Nothing has happened in the last few days that would give anyone any reason to assume that this conclusion has changed. Kahastok talk 11:58, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
- In case this wasn't particularly clear, I was trying to refer to both the article title as well as the contents of the articles that use terms such as "Czech Republic" and "Czech lands" in their titles. With this in mind, what has changed is that several disinterested, authoritative reference works (per WP:PLACE - such as the CIA world factbook, the Board on Geographic Names (the country list on the page), Google maps now use "Czechia". This change has been consistently blocked by authors on this page WP:STONEWALLING, and thus I opened an RFC with the hope that other editors than the 5-6 who regularly block any mention of the word "Czechia" (but are perfectly fine with constructions like "Czech lands" most of the time) would contribute to the debate in a more constructive manner than on this page have been acting in. Hentheden (talk) 13:23, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
- If you wish to rename this article, then the correct process is through WP:RM. If there is consensus to move the article, then MOS:GEO would continue to apply - but this time favouring the new name rather than the existing name. You cannot reasonably expect that this RFC will be treated as an RM, particularly given that your opening statement that does not propose to move the article. Kahastok talk 14:35, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
- Hentheden, I wish you well with your strategy of mischaracterizing the motivations and rationales of people who've disagreed with your preference and your conflation of their opinion on one matter with their opinion on another matter. I'm sure it will be very effective, and justly so. Largoplazo (talk) 16:28, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
- Czech Republic — It is still the name most people call this country. If the title should be a recognisable name, then "Czech Republic" is still the preferable way. LongLivePortugal (talk) 22:41, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
- Leave it as is, as well per LongLivePortugal.(KIENGIR (talk) 03:35, 28 February 2021 (UTC))
- It is quite boring to speak whole the time about my country name. Let's talk for instance about the article "United Kingdom". There are different terms which are used in the article - United Kingdom, Great Britain or just Britain. I don't understand one thing. In the article "United Kingdom" these terms can be mingled. No one is preferred or prohibited. In the article "Czech Republic" we've got two names - the Czech Republic and Czechia which are both grammatically correct nad official. They are both used by a lot of people across the world which is recognized by the fact that they are both mentioned in the article. Despite this using of Czechia is forbidden and sanctioned (as a Czech citizen I feel really disgusted by this oppressive behaviour against my country name). I don't see any reason for this. If using of different names is possible in the case of the United Kingdom why is it not allowed in the case of the Czech Republic? I just demand equal treatment because we deserve it. Don't ignore us and don't insult us. CzechReb (talk) 21:45, 2 March 2021 (UTC) — CzechReb (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Czechia is actually allowed since 21 February 2018: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Czech_Republic/Archive_7#Czechia,_everywhere? However, the editors have been ignoring this vote and continue to delete any occurrence of Czechia and replace it with the Czech Republic despite the consensus. Geog25 (talk) 20:30, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
- Because that consensus is invalid. MOS:GEO overrides it. --Khajidha (talk) 20:51, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
- Suuuuure, because whatever breaks my prepared opinion is ivalid. First, every rule and recommendation can have exceptions because rules should be short and it cannot describe all the possibilities and varieties of the world. And second, we always have WP:IGNORE. If you want to end the triumvirate Czechia / Czech lands / Czech Republic, Czechia is the only way to go. Chrz (talk) 10:00, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
- "It is quite boring to speak [the whole] time"—so you decided to prolong it for everybody?
- That aside, and for what it's worth, if I learned of an RFC in favor of using consistent terminology at United Kingdom, I would support it, with the provisos that (a) pursuant to one of the guidelines, "UK" is proper for attributive (adjectival) use, and (b) Great Britain is the name of the comprising England, Scotland, and Wales and should be used for that purpose, and only for that purpose. I believe that in any article, it's in the interest of the reader not to keep using different names for the same thing because, to the uninformed or underinformed user, it may not be clear that the terms aren't referring to different things (assuming they haven't memorized the lead). Further "Britain" is awfully casual for an encyclopedia article, and, as I pointed out, "Great Britain" in reference to the entire UK is at best ambiguous and at worst inaccurate.
- Finally: How is this a matter of equal treatment, unless you think English speakers visit Czech Wikipedia and argue about over what Czech names are being used for the United States or the United Kingdom in articles there? Largoplazo (talk) 23:45, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
- Czechia is our official name. We have chosen it. You should respect our decision and call us by it. It’s a sign of politeness. But I know the problem is still the same - “striking disrespect”. CzechReb (talk) 10:19, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
- You were right: This is boring. It's boring because people keep making arguments and complaints that have been posted here a hundred times before and that have already been answered. The only thing you could write at this point that wouldn't be a boring repetition of what's already transpired here abundantly in the past would be a survey of current reliable sources in English that shows that their have begun predominately using "Czechia", which would point the way to changing the naming for the country on Wikipedia. Largoplazo (talk) 11:17, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
- I don’t see any reason why I should obey your order. Czechia is the existing name of the country. It’s real. You can’t deny it. I don’t have to prove its existence. I don’t demand the change of the article name. Just let us use this word. CzechReb (talk) 12:41, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
- "I don't see any reason why I should do the one thing that will actually achieve my goal." Fine, don't.
- "Czechia is the existing name of the country." It's an existing name. "It’s real. You can’t deny it. I don’t have to prove its existence." I never said it wasn't real and that you did have to prove its existence. "I don’t demand the change of the article name. Just let us use this word." See my comments above. Consistency within an article benefits the reader. It's the reason the Manual of Style also calls for consistent use of a particular variety of English throughout an article, consistent use of BC/AD or BCE/CE throughout an article, etc. You can use whichever name you want in any article where it's consistent with every other reference to the country in the same article. Largoplazo (talk) 13:06, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
- So, can I do this [2] ? CzechReb (talk) 14:15, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
- 2Largoplazo: Hey man, do you play basketball? If you change your mind I will buy you our national basketball team jersey with the name of Tomáš Satoranský [3] :-) CzechReb (talk) 22:06, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
- I don’t see any reason why I should obey your order. Czechia is the existing name of the country. It’s real. You can’t deny it. I don’t have to prove its existence. I don’t demand the change of the article name. Just let us use this word. CzechReb (talk) 12:41, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
- You were right: This is boring. It's boring because people keep making arguments and complaints that have been posted here a hundred times before and that have already been answered. The only thing you could write at this point that wouldn't be a boring repetition of what's already transpired here abundantly in the past would be a survey of current reliable sources in English that shows that their have begun predominately using "Czechia", which would point the way to changing the naming for the country on Wikipedia. Largoplazo (talk) 11:17, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
- Czechia is our official name. We have chosen it. You should respect our decision and call us by it. It’s a sign of politeness. But I know the problem is still the same - “striking disrespect”. CzechReb (talk) 10:19, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
- For the record, if you ever see "Great Britain" when "United Kingdom" is meant, that should IMO be corrected, as the two terms mean different things. That aside, I agree that use of the word "Czechia" should not be deprecated, it is commonly used enough nowadays for people to recognise it. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 12:58, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
- Czech Republic It should be left as it is.Sea Ane (talk) 21:24, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
- Czechia is the most appropriate. Eccekevin (talk) 01:41, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
- Either - call it one or the other, just make up your minds. GoodDay (talk) 04:03, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
- Czech Republic because it's the name of this article and it would make little sense to have this article at "Czech Republic" and mandate all other articles to use "Czechia", no? I echo the disgruntlement of some editors above who point out that, from a consensus building point of view, repeated failures to achieve consensus for "Czechia" in this article should not be countered by promoting "Czechia" in other articles. Bottom line, Czech Republic remains the most commonly found name in present day reliable sources. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 08:21, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
- Keep the current name. No change of usage.Jklamo (talk) 11:48, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
- Czechia is the name most frequently heard in my circles, and it is shorter and easier to use, so I would go for it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doric Loon (talk • contribs) 12:51, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
- Czech Republic. Almost no English-language sources or English speakers call it Czechia. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:14, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
- Czechia. Is it really RM after moratorium expired? In that case Czechia when I have a chance to say it :) A looooot of sources already switched (are you interested to see those or you'll just say noone uses it and that's it?!), more than when last RM took place. It is blessing for Wikipedia too, no more Czechia / Czech Republic / Czech lands inconsistency, Czechia solves it all perfectly. Yes, it would be little ahead of curve but whatever... It will happen anyway and this all is just stalling, not a great achievement of opposers :) "-What you did for Wiki? -Thanks to me Czechia was introduced several days later than it should have normally been. -Woooow, great, thanks for your contribution!" I think once Wikipedia uses it it will affect other sources too ("Wiki swiched? So must we!") Little bit activistic but it would not be the first case so... Time to switch, it is 5 years since the official introduction, it catches on slowly but steadily. Ah, no RM, just RfC but anyway ... :) 16:16, 5 March 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chrz (talk • contribs)
- Czechia the only logical solution Helveticus96 (talk) 16:46, 5 March 2021 (UTC) — Helveticus96 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- I'm seeing several people saying that Czechia is "the most appropriate" or "the only logical solution". I am curious about the logic of this argument. What this is saying is that "the only logical solution" is for the article title to use one name, and the text of this and other articles should use a completely different name.
- From a policy perspective, this is not a close call. MOS:GEO could not be clearer that references to the country should use the same name as the title of the article, and we would need a compelling reason to ignore that. I don't see any argument that comes close to meeting that standard.
- I also see the arguments to the effect, "no more Czechia / Czech Republic / Czech lands inconsistency", and more than one person has pointed out how repetitious this argument becomes. These arguments, insofar as they support Czechia, are equally illogical. Creating a split between the title of the article on the country and the word used to refer to the country would not resolve any inconsistency at all. The opposite - it would create massive inconsistency and would significantly intensify naming disputes.
- This RFC, whose opening question does not propose to move the article, cannot reasonably result in the article being moved. But these arguments equally don't support moving the article. If Czech Republic refers to the current state, so, by the same argument, does Czechia, so no inconsistency is lifted. And it is difficult to imagine that moving this relatively high profile article to a name that is little-used by real world English-speakers - clearly breaking WP:AT in the process - would not result in a significant intensification of on-Wiki disputes. Kahastok talk 18:18, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
- Czechia, without the Republic in the name, can easily refer to any state in past (why just current state?!), Czech Republic cannot describe kingdom times of Czech lands. And Czech lands are a bit archaic for current references. But it would be RM. About RfC: completely different name. Right :) Very confusing what it might be. MOS:GEO works well for states where common name is not the political one (without Republic in its name) and this rule cannot describe all exceptions you may encounter in real life. Real life cannot be normalized and unified as some people would like to do. Even the sources are able to switch between several names in one article, so, not so unthinkable at all. So, call it illogical all you want, you opinion only. MOS:GEO works OK for categories and article names, there the clear structure is wanted, but in the plain text?! But if you look to Category:Middle_Ages_by_country, Czech exception. Ha. If violent unification is what you want, here are the candidates: Czech lands in the High Middle Ages & Famines in Czech lands. Let's get rid of Czech lands, let us put Czech Republic into Middle Ages :) It would be soooo logicall :) Chrz (talk) 19:15, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
- This RFC, whose opening question does not propose to move the article, cannot reasonably result in the article being moved. But these arguments equally don't support moving the article. If Czech Republic refers to the current state, so, by the same argument, does Czechia, so no inconsistency is lifted. And it is difficult to imagine that moving this relatively high profile article to a name that is little-used by real world English-speakers - clearly breaking WP:AT in the process - would not result in a significant intensification of on-Wiki disputes. Kahastok talk 18:18, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
I don't get what is thw problem with Czechia. It's already official, map services like Google Maps use it, and there are plenty of states with shortened name like Germany, Slovakia, Great Brittain. Dominikmatus (talk) 05:47, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
- Czechia is the way I believe it should be. But I don't expect my opinion even matters that much to the uncontrolled, vain and arrogant administrators of English WP who are so brave and self-confident that they hide behind nicknames...Oasis98 (talk) 12:24, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
- So, your real name is Oasis98 is it? Odd name indeed! -- Necrothesp (talk) 17:00, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
- So brave to criticize the use of pseudonyms while lashing out with ad hominem attacks from behind a pseudonym. Besides that, I can't imagine why you think the understanding that Wikipedia activities are generally meant to be conducted in accordance with Wikipedia's guidelines is the sort of position likely to yield real-life consequences if one were "found out" from which one would want to protect oneself. Largoplazo (talk) 19:19, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
What about checking out his Wikipedia page first? Helveticus96 (talk) 07:02, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
- Czechia Here are 20 examples of news headlines in the past 3 weeks using Czechia:
Badly hit Czechia lines up China's Sinopharm COVID-19 vaccine: https://newseu.cgtn.com/news/2021-03-04/Badly-hit-Czechia-lines-up-China-s-Sinopharm-COVID-19-vaccine-YmeUprCO4w/index.html Czechia orders Chinese vaccine Sinopharm: https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/short_news/czechia-orders-chinese-vaccine-sinopharm/ Czechia considers using Russian vaccine without EMA approval: https://www.intellinews.com/czechia-considers-using-russian-vaccine-without-ema-approval-204370/ Skoda Highlights Enyaq iV Features In Beautiful Czechia: https://insideevs.com/news/491474/skoda-enyaq-iv-features-highlights/ France's AstraZeneca U-turn, checkpoints in Czechia : COVID-19 daily bulletin: https://newseu.cgtn.com/news/2021-03-02/France-s-AstraZeneca-U-turn-Czechia-s-checkpoints-COVID-19-bulletin-Yj1gpbs0p2/index.html Romanian IT group Bittnet expands abroad with acquisition in Czechia: https://www.romania-insider.com/bittnet-expands-czech-rep-march-2021 Czechia records highest per-capita COVID-19 case rate worldwide: https://www.dailysabah.com/world/europe/czechia-records-highest-per-capita-covid-19-case-rate-worldwide Czechia Adds Spain, Portugal & Madeira to Its List of COVID-19 High-Risk Countries: https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/czechia-adds-spain-portugal-madeira-to-its-list-of-covid-19-high-risk-countries/ Czechs tighten lockdown amid virus surge: https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/health/czechs-tighten-lockdown-amid-virus-surge-ng-s-2051297 Antivirus Software For PC Market Including Top Key Players AVG Technologies CZ, S.R.O., (Czechia): https://www.expresskeeper.com/2021/02/26/antivirus-software-for-pc-market-including-top-key-players-avg-technologies-cz-s-r-o-czechia/ Rangers fans delighted as Europa League last 16 lands trip to Czechia: https://www.rangersnews.uk/news/rangers-fans-delighted-as-europa-league-last-16-lands-trip-to-czechia/ Democracy Digest: Czechia and Poland Mine Rich Seam of Antagonism: https://balkaninsight.com/2021/02/26/democracy-digest-czechia-and-poland-mine-rich-seam-of-antagonism/ Israel donates vaccines to Czechia in exchange for diplomatic support: https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/short_news/israel-donates-vaccines-to-czechia-in-exchange-for-diplomatic-support/ Czechia sues Poland over planned lignite mine expansion: https://www.endseurope.com/article/1708185/czechia-sues-poland-planned-lignite-mine-expansion Czech power corporation CEZ eyes acquisition of Vodafone Czechia – report: https://www.telecompaper.com/news/czech-power-corporation-cez-eyes-acquisition-of-vodafone-czechia-report--1373467 Taiwan-donated face mask production line arrives in Czechia: https://focustaiwan.tw/politics/202102230026 News digest: Food industry giant changes hands, new rules for travelling to Czechia: https://spectator.sme.sk/c/22602782/news-digest-food-industry-giant-changes-hands-new-rules-for-travelling-to-czechia.html France's Macron in Africa vaccine plea, Czechia postpones easing: COVID-19 daily bulletin: https://newseu.cgtn.com/news/2021-02-19/Macron-s-Africa-vaccine-plea-Czechia-stalls-easing-COVID-19-bulletin-Y0LVPjd8go/index.html Radar Camera Market Is Booming Worldwide | RAMET a.s. (Czechia), Robert Bosch GmbH (Germany), Beltronics (United States): https://jumbonews.co.uk/uncategorised/1875143/radar-camera-market-is-booming-worldwide-ramet-a-s-czechia-robert-bosch-gmbh-germany-beltronics-united-states/ Border controls with Czechia, Austria necessary, German gov’t says: https://www.laprensalatina.com/border-controls-with-czechia-austria-necessary-german-govt-says/ Germany Reimposes Border Controls With Czechia & Austria Due to COVID-19: https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/germany-reimposes-border-controls-with-czechia-austria-due-to-covid-19/
- And here are other 22 relevant NEW examples of the usage of Czechia in the sense demanded above: "Use of the name, not mention of (and pleading for usage) it." This is not exhaustive in any way. More sources can be listed:
https://www.state.gov/countries-areas/czechia/ https://history.state.gov/countries/czech-republic https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/czechia/ https://www.euro.who.int/en/countries/czechia https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/region/czechia https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/czech-republic/ https://www.worlddata.info/europe/czechia/index.php https://en.unesco.org/countries/czechia https://www.prb.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/2018_WPDS.pdf https://reliefweb.int/country/cze https://population.un.org/wpp/Publications/Files/WPP2019_DataBooklet.pdf http://www.populationeurope.org/en/ https://oec.world/en/profile/country/cze https://fragilestatesindex.org/myfsi/myfsi-country-analysis/ https://www.visionofhumanity.org/maps/#/ https://www.gbif.org/country/CZ/summary https://www.iso.org/obp/ui/#iso:code:3166:CZ https://data.unicef.org/country/cze/ http://www.universalperiodicreview.org/en/review/Czechia https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/countries/member-countries/czechia_en https://www.amazingczechia.com/ https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/main/search?p_p_id=estatsearchportlet_WAR_estatsearchportlet&p_p_lifecycle=1&p_p_state=maximized&p_p_mode=view&_estatsearchportlet_WAR_estatsearchportlet_action=search&_estatsearchportlet_WAR_estatsearchportlet_theme=empty&_estatsearchportlet_WAR_estatsearchportlet_collection=empty&p_auth=CgNrfhFv&text=Czechia Geog25 (talk) 15:29, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
- If you want to start this years WP:RM#CM, do that. This thread isn't it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:02, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
- Czechia Wikipedia is not entitled to forbide using of an official country name. We should be allowed to use Czechia in articles. CzechReb (talk) 12:47, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
- Czech Republic - The long form (official title) is used when the state is targeted as a legal entity: e. g. This Decision is addressed to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The French Republic is authorised to … If the recurrence of the name of a state in the text leads to a preference for using the short form, it can be introduced with the phrase ‘hereinafter referred to as … (short name)’. Czechia - The short form (short name) is used when the state is referred to geographically or economically: e. g. Workers residing in France, Exports from Greece … (source: Countries: Designations and abbreviations to use) 62.168.13.101 (talk)
- Czechia - PubMed, ScienceDirect, Taylor & Francis Online, Wiley Online Library, Springer, ACS Publications, Oxford Academic, MDPI 62.168.13.101 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 15:20, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
- Czech Republic remains the name also overwhelmingly used in short-name contexts, at least until evidence like this shows otherwise. Presenting some recent instances of the use of Czechia isn't any more convincing than presenting recent instances of the use of Czeck Republic, Check Republic, or Chech Republic as a reason to change to those names. Doremo (talk) 15:51, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
- Speedy close - This RFC cannot possibly result in the renaming of the article, as it's the wrong venue. WP:RM is used for that, and the proposal to rename to Czechia has been consistently rejected there. This discussion serves no purpose other than to waste editor time. — Amakuru (talk) 16:06, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
- Yep yep, it should be closed immediatelly, otherwise predeclared victor may it lose this time!!! >:( Chrz (talk) 16:29, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
- What are we being requested to commenting on? I don't understand what this RFC is trying to accomplish. Are we trying to change the name of this page, or demanding consistent usage across Wikipedia, or allow for inconsistent usage across Wikipedia?--Mojo Hand (talk) 16:09, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
- Read it. This article NEVER WAS consistent, it includes Czech Republic, Bohemia, Czech kingdom, Czechoslovakia, Czech lands etc. RfC: Czechia should be represented too, it is "incosistent" with or without it anyway. Same with other articles. Keep your precious names of articles, be "consistent" in that, but in plain text throw some Czechias here and there. Czechia-Czech Republic will be less "confusing for reader" than current "Czech lands-Czech republic" or even "Bohemia-Czech Republic" in the same article. Don't excuse it with stupidity of readers. Chrz (talk) 16:29, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
It was about 8:9 and you closed it as misplaced move request when it clearly was about using more Czechias inside articles? 8:9 is overwhelming? And you are wondering why people do not trust fairness of wikipedia processes. Clear example here. Saaaaad. (I expect you'll delete this also, because processes... without possibility of revision). Chrz (talk) 17:00, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
Dennis Brown, El C: This discussion was initiated expressly to cover not the question of moving this page but to centralize discussion of the use of the name "Czechia" in other articles despite this article's title. Therefore, the premise given for terminating the discussion, that it should have been brought under RM, is mistaken. (edit: OK, not expressly, but it came out through clarification that the focus was on naming elsewhere without respect to the name of this article.) Largoplazo (talk) 18:54, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
- But Hentheden, who initiated this discussion, said "
In case this wasn't particularly clear, I was trying to refer to both the article title as well as the contents of the articles that use terms such as "Czech Republic" and "Czech lands" in their titles.
". Referring to the "article title" implies a discussion about moving the page. – wbm1058 (talk) 19:18, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
- In my view, it starts with the country article's name, without detours. That is, it determines the general naming convention, which is done via an WP:RM, not an WP:RFC (even if it was listed at WP:CD, which it was not). Anyway, this was brought to the attention of admins here: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Czechia_RFC_instead_of_RM. El_C 19:16, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
- Agreed. The article title is determined by the RM process, and barring exceptional circumstances (e.g. MOS:TIES if the topic is known by different names in different places), usage of the term within the article and elsewhere on Wikipedia should use that same name. Given that the article titling policies are designed to give priority to the commonly recognized name for the subject, it makes sense to stick with that title throughout. Cheers — Amakuru (talk) 00:08, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
- Regarding application to other articles, Talk:History of the Czech lands#Requested move 26 February 2021, which was running concurrently to this RFC, was closed a few days ago with
consensus against the proposed name, "Czechia"
and noting substantial support that "Czech Republic" as the name of the current country in the context of that article's title. DMacks (talk) 01:01, 8 March 2021 (UTC)- It was a correct close, as insufficient reason was given for why policy on the process should be overriden (indeed, the policy breach wasn't really addressed by the nominator at all). It was incorrect to claim a near-anianimous set of viewpoints, although in terms of policy-based arguments it's much less close. However, that is not reason to overturn the close due to the RfC/RM split Nosebagbear (talk) 09:26, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
- This is not an encyclopedia that has to educate people, but a theater, where some people try to demonstrate some opinions and their power.
Can anyone explain to me, why the only problem with Czechia has the English language? Have you noticed the French uses "Tchéquie", the German uses "Tschechien" and the Portuguese "Chéquia"? It is only a matter of time before English on Wikipedia becomes the only language where the "Republic" must be committed by force in the name as a wish of some insignificant people in the normal life. 84.42.187.130 (talk) 13:08, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
- Usage on WP reflects the fact that 97% of published English sources are using Czech Republic. That hardly seems insignificant. Doremo (talk) 13:26, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
- this way it is better, shows which one gains. Also, what sources do we want to follow? Official places like UN, EU, WHO, US department of state etc. switched. Newspaper... not so much. Wikipedia says: allover Czechia is used less, so we scratch all official places altogether. Chrz (talk) 15:09, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
- If that trajectory continues unchanged, Czechia will attain 50% usage in about 140 years. Maybe we should discuss it then. Doremo (talk) 15:31, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
- Nah, I expect some tripping point when suddenly it will grow quicker. Is there an example of a name where it is like 50:50 and Wikipedia chooses to just ignore one whole half? Not some spelling differences, those are not this case. Or a name which Wikipedia uses even though precious Ngram shows less than 50 %?Chrz (talk) 16:00, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
- Association football. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:13, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
- It's a very different thing but at least there goes that 50 % -- sometimes less is OK. Chrz (talk) 14:28, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- Association football. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:13, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
- Nah, I expect some tripping point when suddenly it will grow quicker. Is there an example of a name where it is like 50:50 and Wikipedia chooses to just ignore one whole half? Not some spelling differences, those are not this case. Or a name which Wikipedia uses even though precious Ngram shows less than 50 %?Chrz (talk) 16:00, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
- There is no such thing as "official" in English. There is only what is official for those specific agencies. For example, the usage US Department of State has no bearing on general usage in the United States. --Khajidha (talk) 16:41, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
- Authorities of English speaking countries: irrelevant. Textbooks (mainly geography - atlasses, maps) in English (even from English speaking countries): irrelevant. Czech auhorities in English: irrelevant. Other "Czech English" sources: irrelevant. Sources in English but not English speaking country: irrelevant. Too "sciency" "scientific" sources: irrelevant. Newspaper from English speaking countries, common books from English speaking countries and google search stats what people search: here you go. --- Layman's way how to write encyclopedia if you ask me.... Chrz (talk) 14:28, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- That's like Donald Trump insisting that he had to have won the 2020 election because he got 74 million votes, more than any presidential candidate had ever received before. That Biden, nevertheless, got 81 million, which is more than 74 million, didn't seem to figure into his logic. So it goes here: "There are sources" doesn't suffice. "There are many sources" doesn't suffice. "There are more sources" will suffice when that time comes. Largoplazo (talk) 17:05, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- Yep, very polite discussion have we here. Very weak analogy. Votes have all same weight (well in US system not really :D, but anyway). Sources do not. One forgotten article in local newspaper versus one web page of American department (or English encyclopedia - print). For Wikipedia, clearly, 1:1 or maybe even 1:0. And I am Trump. Give me a break. Chrz (talk) 17:48, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- > Pretends to be an authority on English usage
- > Thinks the plural of "atlas" is "atlasses"
- > Czech auhorities in English: irrelevant
- > People who can actually spell English: relevant Archon 2488 (talk) 23:13, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
- That's like Donald Trump insisting that he had to have won the 2020 election because he got 74 million votes, more than any presidential candidate had ever received before. That Biden, nevertheless, got 81 million, which is more than 74 million, didn't seem to figure into his logic. So it goes here: "There are sources" doesn't suffice. "There are many sources" doesn't suffice. "There are more sources" will suffice when that time comes. Largoplazo (talk) 17:05, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- Authorities of English speaking countries: irrelevant. Textbooks (mainly geography - atlasses, maps) in English (even from English speaking countries): irrelevant. Czech auhorities in English: irrelevant. Other "Czech English" sources: irrelevant. Sources in English but not English speaking country: irrelevant. Too "sciency" "scientific" sources: irrelevant. Newspaper from English speaking countries, common books from English speaking countries and google search stats what people search: here you go. --- Layman's way how to write encyclopedia if you ask me.... Chrz (talk) 14:28, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- If that trajectory continues unchanged, Czechia will attain 50% usage in about 140 years. Maybe we should discuss it then. Doremo (talk) 15:31, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
- "Have you noticed the French uses "Tchéquie", the German uses "Tschechien" and the Portuguese "Chéquia"? " And? What is done in French, German, or Portuguese has no bearing on what is done in English.. Or do you not understand that different languages are just that: DIFFERENT. "It is only a matter of time before English on Wikipedia becomes the only language where the "Republic" must be committed by force in the name" So? What if it that does happen? What will it matter? --Khajidha (talk) 20:18, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
- Indeed! Why would English Wikipedia be more influenced by what people are calling things in other languages than English speakers and writers are? Largoplazo (talk) 17:05, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, it does not. Just for clarification that we "pro-Czechia on Wikipedia" are not all the same and that any argument counts. On the contrary. Here you have another "non-argument" now from me: Hey, I just realized that Wikipedia has got -ia suffix. Maybe we should rename it to Wikiped Republic since English language loves "republic" so much :) It is so stupid, it may catch on. Chrz (talk) 17:55, 12 March 2021 (UTC)
- Are you literally so linguistically illiterate that you imagine what is done by speakers of neighbouring Indo-European languages has no bearing on what is done by native English-speakers? Also, your sentence "It is only a matter of time before English on Wikipedia becomes the only language where the "Republic" must be committed by force in the name" is completely unintelligible to this native English speaker. So perhaps you should not presume to pronounce on matters concerning the English language? Archon 2488 (talk) 23:18, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
- Yep, like I said - polite discussion indeed. Mocking, name calling, vulgar speech ("please try not to be an idiot" is edit summary), ad hominem attacks. Very, very compelling reasoning. And also relatable :) And I was told my comments may be contraproductive. Oh oh oh... If the case against Czechia is so clear why do you (plural) so often use this aggresive approach?! Why is Czechia not on Wikipedia? Talk page tells you - it would be idiotic. End of story, the experts spoke, what else do you want to know? Chrz (talk) 23:39, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
- I should clarify that I was not referring to you. Archon 2488 (talk) 00:28, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
- Does not matter. Sentences like "Are you literally so linguistically illiterate" does not help your cause. Chrz (talk) 10:02, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
- FWIW I would clarify that I have no idea what "my cause" is supposed by you to be, and in any case I am quite supportive of using the name "Czechia", as that is the chosen name of the country, for similar reasons that we do not insist on calling Iran "Persia" (whatever the wisdom of that renaming might have been). Archon 2488 (talk) 18:57, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
- Does not matter. Sentences like "Are you literally so linguistically illiterate" does not help your cause. Chrz (talk) 10:02, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
- I should clarify that I was not referring to you. Archon 2488 (talk) 00:28, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
- Yep, like I said - polite discussion indeed. Mocking, name calling, vulgar speech ("please try not to be an idiot" is edit summary), ad hominem attacks. Very, very compelling reasoning. And also relatable :) And I was told my comments may be contraproductive. Oh oh oh... If the case against Czechia is so clear why do you (plural) so often use this aggresive approach?! Why is Czechia not on Wikipedia? Talk page tells you - it would be idiotic. End of story, the experts spoke, what else do you want to know? Chrz (talk) 23:39, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
- this way it is better, shows which one gains. Also, what sources do we want to follow? Official places like UN, EU, WHO, US department of state etc. switched. Newspaper... not so much. Wikipedia says: allover Czechia is used less, so we scratch all official places altogether. Chrz (talk) 15:09, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
Czechia
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
It should be Czechia, because firstly,
- We don’t call France, the French Republic, or Poland, the Republic Of Poland.
- Czechia is the official short-term name of the country.
- According to Google Trends, Czechia is far more popular than Czech Republic
- Google Maps, Apple Maps, Microsoft Maps, and the Russian Yandex Maps, all call it Czechia.
- The argument that it would sound too much like Chechnya doesn’t make sense, because Chechnya isn’t a country, and many other countries (Australia, Austria) (Iran, Iraq) (Slovakia, Slovenia) (Latvia, Lithuania) (Niger, Nigeria) (Mauritania, Mauritius), are also similar.
It’s called Czechia WikiMakersOfOurTime (talk) 22:02, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
- Responses:
- Unlike France and Poland, we haven't yet observed that "Czechia" is in common usage, let alone more common than "The Czech Republic". See the guidelines that govern how this is decided, WP:COMMONNAME and WP:NAMECHANGES. Neither of these reflects a preference for "short" versus "long" form independent of what people actually call an article's subject. (Now, if you think it's unfair of reliable sources in English not to be calling it Czechia, which is what it would take for Wikipedia to change the title, then your issue is with them!)
- And "The Czech Republic" is the official long form. It isn't as though it's a name of which the country's government disapproves.
- Google Trends reports searches for terms, not uses of them in reliable sources. What you found may even undermine your request: It may mean that people already know what the Czech Republic is, but not "Czechia"; so all the extra searches for "Czechia" are from people asking themselves "What the hell is that?" That would imply that "Czechia" remains much less established in the English lexicon than "Czech Republic", the opposite of what the situation would have to be for the title to change.
- Sorry, that's irrelevant. Please read previous discussions here where exactly this point has been raised repeatedly, and exhaustively answered. What Wikipedia chooses to title articles isn't determined by proactive adopters of the new. Wikipedia isn't an early adopter, it's a late (or at least later) adopter. Again, see WP:COMMONNAME.
- I've never made that argument, I don't agree with it anyway, and I wouldn't even if Chechnya were a country.
- Please, out of courtesy for those of us who follow this article and talk page, don't pursue this with arguments that have already been raised and responded to numerous times before (see above and in this page's archives). Under any and all circumstances, it is highly unlikely that consensus to change the title will be reached other than based on WP:COMMONNAME and WP:NAMECHANGES. Largoplazo (talk) 23:09, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
- Your saying reliable sources aren’t using Czechia, but as I said in Point #4, many map sources use Czechia not Czech Republic.
- We don’t use long-form names for other countries.
- Czechia is in a 88:5 (88 being Czechia, 5 being Czech Republic), meaning if 94% of all the people using Czechia were confused, it would still be more than Czech Republic.
- If you want reliable sources, then those reliable map sources say Czechia.
- Ok, well I heard people use that argument. So atleast we can agree on that.
- WikiMakersOfOurTime (talk) 18:01, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
- Also according to the United Nations Group of Experts on Geographical Names List of Country Names on Page 28, they say Czechia is the short name of the Czech Republic. WikiMakersOfOurTime (talk) 18:11, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
- As I pointed out, search queries are search queries, completely irrelevant to the applicable guidelines. I only pointed out in addition that you don't have any idea what the relative numbers really indicate.
- The guidelines don't say "find X reliable sources that use the newest term and then you're done". They say to determine what is most used in reliable sources.
- As I requested, please read previous discussions to avoid ground that has already been covered here a dozen times before. Largoplazo (talk) 23:24, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
- Just on that Google Trends search. It is irrelevant, but I don't agree with your reasoning as to why. You would generally expect the common name to be more commonly searched. But the search methodology used is severely flawed, and I feel we must point these flaws out.
- First, it only considered searches made in the Czech Republic itself, which is not an English speaking country.
- The bigger flaw in this search is that it compares searches for "Czechia" as a topic with searches for "Czech Republic" as a search term. The difference is described here. So, the Czechia results are including anything that Google interpreted as referring to the country, including searches made in Czech and searches made in English for "Czech Republic". The "Czech Republic" results are only including searches made in English for "Czech Republic". These cannot be meaningfully compared.
- If you do a like-for-like search, "Czech Republic" dominates - even among searches made in the Czech Republic. Widen the search to worldwide, and there is no country where "Czechia" is a more common search term. Kahastok talk 17:55, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
- I disagree with your first observation. I read every day, and my searches proportional to whether a topic is new or unusual to me, which is generally inversely proportional to the frequency with which a topic is raised or a term is used. If I'd never seen "Czechia" before but I've read "Czech Republic" a zillion times, when I finally see "Czechia" I may search for it once, compared to the zero times I will ever have searched for "Czech Republic". Multiply that by millions of people who know what Czech Republic is and have no reason to search for it despite, or because of seeing it mentioned hundreds of times each, while many of them will look up "Czechia" the first time they see it.
- Besides that, whether the more common name is more commonly searched is the reverse of WikiMakersOfOurTime premise, which is that the more common searched term is the more common name. "A is more likely B, therefore B is more likely A" is a logical fallacy. It's also specious: if you want to find out what's more commonly used, look into what's more commonly used rather than trying to infer it from something else that depends on a number of factors in unknown proportions, making its value as an indicator of the relevant statistic nil. Largoplazo (talk) 22:00, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
- Ok, about the search term vs topic thing, ok I see I made a mistake. But I have backup.
- If you compare “Česko” (Czechia in Czech) vs Česká Republika (Czech Republic in Czech), in Google Trends as search terms in Czechia, Česko dominates, in every Czech region it goes with Česko over Česká Republika. WikiMakersOfOurTime (talk) 04:11, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
- And? How is the usage of a Czech word in the Czech language in the Czech Republic relevant in any way to the usage of an English word in the English language? --Khajidha (talk) 12:44, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
- Shouldn’t the Czechs decide there own country name? WikiMakersOfOurTime (talk) 03:33, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
- You're confusing two different things: 1) selecting the name for their country in their own language and 2) controlling how that name is translated to other languages. --Khajidha (talk) 09:15, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
- Shouldn’t the Czechs decide there own country name? WikiMakersOfOurTime (talk) 03:33, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
- Do not ask Wikipedia, write to CzechTourism, main agency which stalls with "fantastic arguments". Typical sunk cost. It already cost $XYZ to advertise "Czech Republic", it hasn't worked, the world still recognizes Czechoslovakia more, but it may happen some day, we should spend more and more to try, blahblahblah.
- To you, CzechTourism, forget the Czech Republic, it is not a brand, it will never happen, you just spend money for nothing. People want shorter names and "Czech" or "Czechrep" are horrendous results of that. You should promote one and only short name. It is a small country to have 10 names.
- CzechTourism does not have direct effect on English Wikipedia, of course, but it is an important source and chain reaction starts there. If CzechTourism starts, sport will follow etc.Chrz (talk) 14:26, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
- And? How is the usage of a Czech word in the Czech language in the Czech Republic relevant in any way to the usage of an English word in the English language? --Khajidha (talk) 12:44, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
- If you do a like-for-like search, "Czech Republic" dominates - even among searches made in the Czech Republic. Widen the search to worldwide, and there is no country where "Czechia" is a more common search term. Kahastok talk 17:55, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
What's "official" doesn't matter, what is done for other countries doesn't matter. What matters is general English usage. Does the news talk about "COVID 19 in Czechia"? Do travel agencies sell tours of Czechia? Show us the usage. Until you can show us that general usage has changed (not "should change" or even "is changing"), it won't matter.--Khajidha (talk) 21:06, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
- Articles I Found Using Czechia:
- Czechia expels Russian diplomats over 2014 ammunition depot blast
- Czechia, a laggard in clean energy, could embrace wind power
- Czechia Imposes “Dark Red” Category for Countries Profoundly Affected by COVID-19
- Czechia Obliges Arrivals From Bulgaria, France, Italy, Slovenia & Andorra to Test & Quarantine
- Czechia records highest per-capita COVID-19 case rate worldwide
- Czechia, More Resilient Than Ever
- Czechia moves towards full lockdown as government restricts movement of citizens
- Czechia, Poland, Slovakia never followed-up on global COVID-19 pledge
- 5 Best Places You Must Visit in Czechia
- The Atlas Obscura Guide To Czechia
- 20 INTERESTING FACTS ABOUT CZECHIA
- China’s Evolving Approach to Media Influence: The Case of Czechia
- Czechia has world’s highest Covid-19 infection rate
- Czechia announces state of emergency as hospitals reach breaking point
- VICTORY! CZECHIA BANS CAGES FOR HENS, NOW EU MUST FOLLOW
- Cultural Center in Modřice Designed to Celebrate Czechia
- This enough? I have more. WikiMakersOfOurTime (talk) 04:30, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
- Not enough. This much sources should be in one day, not one year. And in sources from English speaking countries, not sources in English from wherever. Chrz (talk) 06:50, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
- If it's more than the number of applicable sources using "Czech Republic", it's enough. If it isn't, then it isn't enough. (I keep wondering why it's so hard to convey to so many people that it's a matter of what usage predominates, not of finding N sources with the newer name, for some magic number N—with it then no longer mattering that the old name is still used in N + 1 or 2N or 100N sources.) Largoplazo (talk) 10:18, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
- You think that’s too little? Here are some using Czechia FROM THE LAST 24 HOURS ONLY
- Events in Czechia and Belarus Cement Eastern Europe’s New Divide
- Russian agents who operated in Bulgaria and Czechia were the same people
- Czechia asks EU to expel Russian diplomats
- Czechia expels 18 Russian diplomats on the grounds of 'unequivocal' evidence
- Czechia’s Surprise Decision to Expel Russian Diplomats [No Link Due To Blacklisted Link]
- The Vrbětice case will affect relations between the Czechia and Russia
- Czechia’s Surprise Decision to Expel Russian Diplomats [Different Website]
- Events in Czechia and Belarus Cement Eastern Europe’s New Divide [Different Website]
- Slovakia’s Security Council summoned amid Russia-Czechia tension
- Events in Czechia and Belarus cement Eastern Europe’s new divide [Different Website]
- Google News Showcase is launching in Czechia
- Feel like that’s enough, I can give more if you want. WikiMakersOfOurTime (talk) 00:09, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
- In other words, when I wrote "I keep wondering why it's so hard to convey to so many people that it's a matter of what usage predominates, not of finding N sources with the newer name, for some magic number N", you were one of the people to whom I was referring. Largoplazo (talk) 00:16, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
- This time these were fresh sources, no more than 1 day old, pretty imnpressive. Most of these wikipedians were here before 2016 with their "Czechia does not exist" so they will melt very reluctantly. But still, you should compute this: NUMBER_OF_CZECHIA / (NUMBER_OF_CZECHIA + NUMBER_OF_CZECH_REPUBLIC). One day interval, one month interval etc. Chrz (talk) 08:41, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
- How do I compute that? Is there a program where I do that, or do I have to do the numbers myself? WikiMakersOfOurTime (talk) 00:12, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
- Google magic. Get results of one query (filter in English, last week or day or month), get number of results... then second query... get a calculator and compute. Or maybe someone knows better way / tool... Chrz (talk) 06:14, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
- Doesn’t Google Trends do that? Also shouldn’t Czechs decide there country name? Because in Google Trends Czechs use Czechia not Czech Republic. WikiMakersOfOurTime (talk) 20:13, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
- Google magic. Get results of one query (filter in English, last week or day or month), get number of results... then second query... get a calculator and compute. Or maybe someone knows better way / tool... Chrz (talk) 06:14, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
- How do I compute that? Is there a program where I do that, or do I have to do the numbers myself? WikiMakersOfOurTime (talk) 00:12, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
Trends: searched term. Google magic I am speaking of: found sources. Czechs decided and Czechia and the Czech Republic both are names of the country by their (our) decision and English language respects it. (Yes, editors here were VERY hesitant to add it into first sentence but eventually had to.) Wikirules does not allow to use less used term (exceptions are possible but there's no will here). And consistency of short names is not an issue for Wiki. BTW Czechs decided to do both: register the name and not use it (much) at the same time :) Main reason was to end unofficial and bad short names like "Czech", "Czech Rep.", "Czecho" or "Czechlands". At least this was somewhat successful. Foreign (meaning not Czech) sources use it much more than Czech authorities... But anyway, it slowly grows... It might be an exponential growth, but around the "0" value it can't be said for sure. Chrz (talk) 20:49, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
- My guess is that this article will reach the Talk:Kyiv/Archive_7#Requested_move_28_August_2020 point sometime, but it hasn't happened yet. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:57, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
- Kyiv - It was politics based campaign too. Czechia "cause" is not so active, on the contrary. Czechia is pure laziness of Czech authorities and not listening to marketing experts, but at least these lazy authorities registered it in UN, with 23 year delay :) And now shyly uses it like this Ministry of foreign affairs article or this Czech ambassador on his face mask :P Chrz (talk) 21:03, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
- Well, maybe you should check out Korean action at Liancourt Rocks and Sea of Japan then ;-) They haven't had success on en-WP, but they try in all kinds of places. And then there's Adam's Bridge... Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:10, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
- Names of states are officialized on the highest places, unlike name of foreign town like Kiev/Kyiv or sea, bridge, mountain. From this perspective Czechia should be most straight forward. Not a wiki-perspective though. To seek good analogy, similar country naming dispute on Wikipedia should be found. And successful too, to show how to achieve an exception from the rule to shorten time to win, how to bypass it ;) :P In the meantime it is evaluated by very general rule for naming of anything, from people to lakes or something. Chrz (talk) 21:51, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
- "Names of states are officialized on the highest places" What such places exist that hold any control over the actions of Wikipedia? The United Nations is a very important international organization, but it has diddly-squat to do with Wikipedia. "It's official" only means anything to those subject to the officialdom in question. --Khajidha (talk) 23:09, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
- It does have a secondary effect. On the sources Wikipedia actually uses and respects, unlike offcial lists of UN, ISO, MFA, EU etc. And from this lists it moves to press releases of these organizations -- newspaper (which Wiki respects) cite it and here we go... Same with embedded tweets of MFA etc. Slow and steady increasing appearance of "the boring official sources" IN "the exciting common sources" at least makes it more and more visible. Chrz (talk) 06:23, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
- Exactly. Secondary. As in "not important". If usage doesn't change, "official" means nothing. --Khajidha (talk) 12:48, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
- It does have a secondary effect. On the sources Wikipedia actually uses and respects, unlike offcial lists of UN, ISO, MFA, EU etc. And from this lists it moves to press releases of these organizations -- newspaper (which Wiki respects) cite it and here we go... Same with embedded tweets of MFA etc. Slow and steady increasing appearance of "the boring official sources" IN "the exciting common sources" at least makes it more and more visible. Chrz (talk) 06:23, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
- "Names of states are officialized on the highest places" What such places exist that hold any control over the actions of Wikipedia? The United Nations is a very important international organization, but it has diddly-squat to do with Wikipedia. "It's official" only means anything to those subject to the officialdom in question. --Khajidha (talk) 23:09, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
- Names of states are officialized on the highest places, unlike name of foreign town like Kiev/Kyiv or sea, bridge, mountain. From this perspective Czechia should be most straight forward. Not a wiki-perspective though. To seek good analogy, similar country naming dispute on Wikipedia should be found. And successful too, to show how to achieve an exception from the rule to shorten time to win, how to bypass it ;) :P In the meantime it is evaluated by very general rule for naming of anything, from people to lakes or something. Chrz (talk) 21:51, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
- Well, maybe you should check out Korean action at Liancourt Rocks and Sea of Japan then ;-) They haven't had success on en-WP, but they try in all kinds of places. And then there's Adam's Bridge... Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:10, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
- Don't bother adding sources or arguments in this thread. Start a new WP:RM#CM, or edit something else. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:22, 20 April 2021 (UTC)
- Kyiv - It was politics based campaign too. Czechia "cause" is not so active, on the contrary. Czechia is pure laziness of Czech authorities and not listening to marketing experts, but at least these lazy authorities registered it in UN, with 23 year delay :) And now shyly uses it like this Ministry of foreign affairs article or this Czech ambassador on his face mask :P Chrz (talk) 21:03, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
Comment
- The OP's reasoning is not very convincing but "Czechia" is catching up and certainly is in common usage. According to Google News, Czechia has just edged out Czech Republic with 24 vs. 20 pages of results for the last month:[4][5] On Google Scholar, Czech Republic is still ahead with 11,000 results this year as opposed to 1,730 for Czechia. (t · c) buidhe 22:44, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
- Yeah, it will definitely be time to move the article soon. My gut intuition is that news sources keep more up to date with current linguistic trends than do academic ones. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 08:34, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 3 May 2021
 | This edit request to Czech Republic has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Rename to "Czechia". Literally everywhere else, every major tech company and the vast majority of people use "Czechia". Why is wikipedia insisting on the incorrect form 'Czech Republic'? It was odd 5 years ago, now it's just annoying and obnoxious. Seems like American arrogance driving this, all Europeans know the correct name. Please amend. 37.228.209.189 (talk) 18:48, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
Not done: page move requests should be made at Wikipedia:Requested moves. See also the multiple discussions above on this exact subject. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 19:09, 3 May 2021 (UTC)- What is truly annoying and obnoxious are these attempts to mandate English usage. --Khajidha (talk) 19:30, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
- Yep. If you're serious about this, start with reading WP:RM#CM and give it your best shot. I also recommend taking the time to read the thread just above this one. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:33, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
- We're still waiting for someone to demonstrate, with reference to recent applicable sources, that assertions such as those that you made are true. I suspect that will happen some day, and I happen to like "Czechia", so I hope it does. In addition to the thread just above, to which GGS referred, see the guidelines specifically written to cover matters like this, WP:COMMONNAME and WP:NAMECHANGES, and previous discussions at Talk:Czech Republic/Archive 7#Requested move 19 June 2018 and Talk:Czech Republic/Archive 8#Requested move 22 November 2019. These should orient you, so that if the facts are now in favor of "Czechia", you can efficiently and effectively present your case and persuade others that, under the guidelines, the change in title is appropriate.
- That ends the positive, motivational portion of my presentation on the substantive question. Now, let's discuss approach. If you're going to dig right in with making up other people's reasons for their stances, smearing entire nationalities, and putting the focus on your feelings rather than objective data, the only thing you'll convince anybody of is that engaging with others in neutral and informed consideration of data on current usage in reliable sources is not what you're looking for. You also won't be taken seriously when you use words like "incorrect", implying that the Czech government is incorrect, as they still maintain "Czech Republic" as the country's long-form name and continue to use it in the names of some of their institutions. In fairness, you're far from the first person here to insist that one term used by the Czech government is the one we must use because the Czech government uses it, while another term also used by the Czech government is incorrect and ignorant and our use of it is arrogant and annoying and obnoxious. The logic is mystifying. (Or is it the Czech government that's arrogant and annoying and obnoxious for having held onto "Czech Republic"?) Largoplazo (talk) 23:14, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
- Is it really necessary to scare each and every anonymous IP address with a load of dismissive responses? From people who are really really really fed up with this topic?! :) One "already solved many times, look above" suffices. Chrz (talk) 15:24, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
- People who come roaring in with hostile attitudes and insults are not innocent flowers I'm worried about scaring when calling them on their approach. Also, I have yet to achieve any degree of success on this talk page with "already solved many times, look above" in preventing all the old ground from being retrodden anyway. Largoplazo (talk) 15:33, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
- Your problem, your low threashold of "hostile". But who am I to talk you out of lengthy responses, it is your time wasted, same responses in other words over and over again, on topic you are nearly bored by or more. "No new argument, see above" must suffice. Even if "nonames" replies something. Chrz (talk) 15:41, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
- People who come roaring in with hostile attitudes and insults are not innocent flowers I'm worried about scaring when calling them on their approach. Also, I have yet to achieve any degree of success on this talk page with "already solved many times, look above" in preventing all the old ground from being retrodden anyway. Largoplazo (talk) 15:33, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
What is the name of the anthem?
If you look at the article, it says that the National Anthem of Czechia is “Where is my home,” but if you click the link, that article says that the title is “Where my home is,” creating an inconsistency. One of these is incorrect. Which is it? 2605:A601:A821:5E00:57:BE2F:425:81B6 (talk) 22:42, 6 May 2021 (UTC) I am pretty sure it's "Where is my home" as this is what English translations of the lyrics say in the song, whereas "Where my home is" is never mentioned. My sources include a blog about Prague and Czechia: http://www.prague.net/blog/article/51/do-you-know-czech-national-anthem and lyricstranslate.com. -Taltos :) (talk) 17:46, 7 May 2021 (UTC)TaltosKieron
A geography professor roasts Wikipedians that are blocking the more appropriate name
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Geography professor Petr Pavlínek from Charles University wrote an article about the efforts to block the more appropriate English name (Czechia), roasting some Wikipedians that participate in them. https://www.seznamzpravy.cz/clanek/komentar-uz-pet-let-jsme-anglicky-czechia-stat-to-ale-bojkotuje-154441
Učitelé angličtiny českým studentům vštěpují, že jméno Czechia je z nějakého vymyšleného důvodu špatně. Česká wikipedistická úderka, včetně spolku Wikimedia Česká republika, je aktivně zapojena do blokování jména Czechia v anglické Wikipedii, kde jsou opakovaně uvalovány zákazy dokonce i na diskuse o používání jména Czechia.
English teachers instill in Czech students that the name Czechia is wrong for some made-up reason. The Czech Wikipedians, including Wikimedia Czech Republic, are actively involved in blocking the name Czechia in the English Wikipedia, where bans are repeatedly imposed even on discussions of the use of the name Czechia.
He is also dissing the prime minister for boycotting it.
Jelikož odborný argument proti jménu Czechia neexistuje, základním tvrzením předsedy vlády je, že se ve světě neujalo. Toto tvrzení bylo opakovaně vyvráceno. Jméno Czechia používají všechny nejvýznamnější mapové aplikace a navigační systémy (Google Maps, Here, Mapy.cz), počítačové operační systémy (Apple, Microsoft atd.), mobilní telefony (Apple i Android), všechny mezinárodní covidové statistiky, organizace OSN, Evropská unie, americké ministerstvo zahraničí, CIA World Factbook… Vyhledávač Google našel více než 82 miliónů výskytů jména Czechia na webu, což je vynikající výsledek za situace, kdy ho český stát a jeho instituce prakticky nepoužívají. Šíření by mohlo být daleko rychlejší, kdyby náš stát krátké jméno začal používat tak, jako ho používají všechny ostatní normální země. Jméno Czechia mohlo být dávno zažité a samozřejmé, jako například krátké jméno Croatia.
Since there is no professional argument against the name Czechia, the Prime Minister's primary claim is that it has not caught on in the world. This claim has been repeatedly refuted. The name Czechia is used by all the most important mapping applications and navigation systems (Google Maps, Here, Mapy.cz), computer operating systems (Apple, Microsoft, etc.), mobile phones (Apple and Android), all international covid statistics, UN organisations, the European Union, the US State Department, the CIA World Factbook... The Google search engine has found more than 82 million occurrences of the name Czechia on the web, which is an excellent result in a situation where the Czech state and its institutions practically do not use it. The spread could be much faster if our state started using the short name as all other normal countries do. The name Czechia could have been long established and commonplace, like, for example, the short name Croatia.
(Also, he is a co-author of a bilingual website that tries to debunk common myths about the more appropriate name: https://www.go-czechia.com)
– Busleadly (talk) 16:28, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- So? One more person complaining that Wikipedia naming conventions aren't based on his personal choice of criteria. His comments hold no more water outside than if he had posted them here. His note about 82 million Google hits is like Donald Trump carrying on about how he must have won because he got 74 million votes, overlooking that Biden's 81 million is more than that. (Yes, I know, he disputes the 81 million, and I don't mean to get into that, but he even takes it as axiomatic that because 74 million is impressive on its own, we should be convinced solely on that basis.) Yes, 82 million Google hits is a lot—but 398 million Google hits for "Czech Republic" is more. Largoplazo (talk) 17:07, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- By what criterion is it the "more appropriate name"? Because, by Wikipedia guidelines, it is already at the more appropriate name. --Khajidha (talk) 18:54, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- Wikipedia will not be interested in this. It has its guidelines to use whatever is more used in Google, without interest what more profound and visible sources use - like Google maps. Google maps are just 1 source in millions, 2 arcticles from BBC or whatever top that. And the reaction already speaks for itself - proffessor? Just one more nobody. Who cares, we are a lot of laymans, there are more of us, so we win = wikipedia guidelines. Chrz (talk) 19:42, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
- Yet another "new" Talk:Czech Republic only user? --Jklamo (talk) 12:53, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- Common theme here - fight users instead of "debunk" presented argements. Humiliate, mock, scare away, team up and laugh. If it is so clear, then simple polite response suffices. More and more here we read "it is not Czechia". It is more and more frequent maybe it is time to admit it IS Czechia :) Boycotting on Czech side is a sad truth. Surprising how short name spread instead of that. Czechs approved name to use it and then step against it. Crazy :) I may agree with evaluation that it is still too early to rename it on Wikipedia, but I disapprove a lot of reasoning here.
- "If a name, then Czechia it is" - clearly, this is not what 5 year old belated decision brings and means
- "If a SHORT name, then Czechia it is" - this narrower goal was maybe successful and short "names" like Czecho, Czech and Bohemia maybe dropped in usage. Very unambitious goal though. Not worth it. Use short names where others use short name, what should have been targerted. Chrz (talk) 13:58, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- You are assuming that there should have been a target at all. Here's a simpler solution that avoids all these problems: leave what other languages do to the native speakers of those languages. There is no more reason for me to care what the word for my country is in your language than there is for any other word (like red, circle, mountain, happy, etc). --Khajidha (talk) 15:35, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- Here's your mistake: It is 180°. Czechs let most of languages be and they came up with short name, mostly some variation of Czechia. Czechs actively spoke into English and blocked the short name insisting in using the long one. So they did and were (unfortunatelly) so successful that now it is quite hard to reverse it. And why English? Oh oh let me see why Czechs are not bothered in Finnish or Japan, why oh why it could be... 15:42, 17 May 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chrz (talk • contribs)
- "Czechs let most of languages be and they came up with short name". And English didn't. My point is that there is no reason for Czechs to care either way. If you can accept that a language comes up with a short form, you can accept that another language doesn't. Neither outcome should matter to you. --Khajidha (talk) 15:46, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- English did or would, but Czechs repetedly asked to use the long one exclusivelly, and it succeeded. Now I want to let English breathe and speed up its communication :) Chrz (talk) 15:49, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- "Czechs let most of languages be and they came up with short name". And English didn't. My point is that there is no reason for Czechs to care either way. If you can accept that a language comes up with a short form, you can accept that another language doesn't. Neither outcome should matter to you. --Khajidha (talk) 15:46, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
- Common theme here - fight users instead of "debunk" presented argements. Humiliate, mock, scare away, team up and laugh. If it is so clear, then simple polite response suffices. More and more here we read "it is not Czechia". It is more and more frequent maybe it is time to admit it IS Czechia :) Boycotting on Czech side is a sad truth. Surprising how short name spread instead of that. Czechs approved name to use it and then step against it. Crazy :) I may agree with evaluation that it is still too early to rename it on Wikipedia, but I disapprove a lot of reasoning here.
Czech_Republic#Name section
I am really, really, really, really (really) sorry to start another thread about the name of this country, but I find it odd that this section doesn't mention "Czech Republic". Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:17, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
Done Makes perfect sense. Largoplazo (talk) 00:28, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
- Removed and readded. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:51, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
- "but Czech Republic was selected for use as the official short name as well as the long one. " This sounds thoroughly ridiculous in English. You are saying that the same form is both long and short. That is literally impossible. What is possible, is "no short name was selected, with the long form being used in situations that would normally call for the short form." --Khajidha (talk) 18:46, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
- Whatever can be supported by a good source, but this section should mention where "Czech_Republic" came from. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:51, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
- In a table of countries, you might have columns for "Capital", "Largest City", "Population", "Full Formal Name", "Name Usually Used for Repeated Mentions in Text, At Least After First Mention", "Area", "Currency", etc. The fact that, in a given country, the capital might be the largest city doesn't mean they are suddenly not distinct concepts with their own designations, that the two columns collapse into one; that that country has a capital but not a largest city, or vice versa. Likewise, "Full Formal Name" and "Name Usually Used ..." are two separate concepts that exist independently of whether they're the same for a given country. It's easier to refer to these as "long form" and "short form", and that may make it sound silly to you, but what they denote are nevertheless distinct concepts both of which warrant being specified whether or not they're the same for a given country. Largoplazo (talk) 19:53, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
- You did notice that I gave you a way to refer to these two distinct concepts without using silly phrasing? Calling these concepts "long name" and "short name" makes sense in other cases, but not here. Using those terms here simply invites ridicule.--Khajidha (talk) 00:02, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
- "but Czech Republic was selected for use as the official short name as well as the long one. " This sounds thoroughly ridiculous in English. You are saying that the same form is both long and short. That is literally impossible. What is possible, is "no short name was selected, with the long form being used in situations that would normally call for the short form." --Khajidha (talk) 18:46, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 July 2021
| This edit request to Czech Republic has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I would like to propose a change of english translation of the name of the national anthem of Czech Republic on this wikipedia site. It's translated here as "Where is my home", but actually it should be "Where my home is". Unfortunately, I don't have any reliable source but Iam Czech and the meaning of the anthem is to show Where my home is not to ask Where is my home?. Where is my home? is a question but the original has no question mark after home, it's just Kde domov můj - Where my home is. I hope that what I wrote makes a little bit of sence. Thank you. 194.228.68.37 (talk) 15:51, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:38, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
- The individual page for Kde domov můj uses the translation "Where My Home Is" in every single instance, with what looks like a a reliable source as the first refernce in the article. ― Levi_OPtalk 16:11, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
Name Change
Why has no one changed the name of the Title yet? Ranamode (talk) 17:08, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
- Please see the FAQ at the top of this page. CMD (talk) 17:12, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
- See related discussions at Talk:Czech Republic/Archive 9 (and earlier, if that's not enough). If you think sources support you, start a WP:RM#CM and make your arguments per WP policy. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:14, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
- Points to consider before beginning the latest of many discussions on this topic, summarizing what can be absorb from a review of the earlier ones:
- First, a question: How did "Czech Republic" become wrong, let alone arrogant as some have called it? It is still the formal long-form name of the country! It hasn't been discarded. Sticking with "Czech Republic" isn't the same as titling the article about Sri Lanka "Ceylon".
- The applicable Wikipedia guideline at WP:COMMONNAME indicates that the title should change when the replacement title is being used more frequently in current reliable sources written in English. Many people have provided reliable sources using "Czechia", but with no indication that those sources outnumber sources still using "Czech Republic".
- Pointing to specific sources like Google Maps that adopted "Czechia" early and asking "Why don't we follow their approach?" doesn't help because (a) this talk page isn't the place to debate Wikipedia's general approach to article naming, and (b) there's no reason why Wikipedia's approach should copy another publisher's approach that they adopted for their purposes rather than having its own approach for its own purposes.
- Anybody who wants to formally request a move may do so but it will lead to no change unless it's demonstrated that "Czechia" has overtaken "Czech Republic" in recent reliable sources written in English. Until then, it isn't worth the trouble. Anyone who considers submitting such a request is best advised to do their homework first and not bother unless they're able to kick off the discussion with a solid Wikipedia-policy-based case to support the change.
- Largoplazo (talk) 17:34, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
- Look, I want to say even if Czechia is less popular then Czech Republic, Wikipedia has a big role in that, if you look up Czechia or Czech Republic Wikipedia shows up first, Wikipedia is in the Top 10 of most visited websites, it’s a source for many people. It has a role in how people say the Czech country. WikiMakersOfOurTime (talk) 05:03, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
- And that role is to tell people what it is called in English. Not what you think it should be called. --Khajidha (talk) 09:22, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
- I'd venture that 99.999% of people who mention the country have never seen the article on it on Wikipedia. It's as though you were suggesting that before Wikipedia nobody even knew that the country existed. Largoplazo (talk) 10:45, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
- This statement, meant to be an argument in favor of name change, is actually an argument against it:
even if Czechia is less popular then Czech Republic, Wikipedia has a big role in that... Wikipedia is in the Top 10 of most visited websites
- the point here being roughly, "Wikipedia is a hugely influential website; if only Wikipedia would go ahead and make the name change, the rest of the world would soon follow along." But Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, a WP:TERTIARY source, and not the language police. We don't do anything first: Wikipedia follows other sources, it does not lead. If you want to get Wikipedia to change, you need to get the majority of WP:SECONDARY sources to change first. Mathglot (talk) 18:29, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
- Look, I want to say even if Czechia is less popular then Czech Republic, Wikipedia has a big role in that, if you look up Czechia or Czech Republic Wikipedia shows up first, Wikipedia is in the Top 10 of most visited websites, it’s a source for many people. It has a role in how people say the Czech country. WikiMakersOfOurTime (talk) 05:03, 12 July 2021 (UTC)