Talk:Sally Hemings

Undetected Vandalism made 2 years ago

In August 2020, several vandalous changes by an anonymous IP editor who did TWO consecutive edits were mostly undone. However, one of those changes was to change the name of a Washington Post article actually titled "For decades they hid Jefferson's relationship with her" to "For decades they hid Jefferson's rape". This change was NOT undone in the broad reverting of this editor's changes. I have just now fixed it. Needless, to say altering the title of outside sources is utterly unacceptable. WickerGuy (talk) 21:52, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Unsourced intro claims

The claims I removed from the intro are not sourced on this article. The name "Susannah" for Hemings's grandmother is unsourced and does not appear anywhere else in the article, with the only citation for her name being in the below quoted sentence, where it is given speculatively as "Parthena" or "Parthenia":

Annette Gordon-Reed speculates that Betty's mother's name was Parthena (or Parthenia), based on the wills of Francis Eppes IV and John Wayles.

There are citations for letters Adams wrote to Jefferson but in those letters she does not describe "a strong resemblance to Martha Jefferson" at any point, only this:

The Girl who is with her is quite a child, and captain Ramsey is of opinion will be of so little service that he had better carry her back with him, but of this you will be a judge. she seems fond of the child and appears good Naturd. [1]

If you have sources for these claims, add them to the article. Please do not revert this change unless you are also citing sources to support these additions.

For reference, here is the edit where these additions were first made back in March, un-cited: [2] Vague | Rant 15:32, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Adding some further brief descriptions of Hemings from Adams's letters, just for completeness' sake: in [3], also to Jefferson, she writes:

She has a Girl about 15 or 16 with her, the Sister of the Servant you have with you.

And in [4], to her sister Mary Smith Cranch, she writes:

I have had with me for a fortnight a little daughter of mr Jeffersons, who arrived here with a young Negro Girl her Servant from Virginia.

Adams spends very little time describing Hemings's appearance.

While I don't think it's relevant to whether or not the claims are cited in the article, which is the issue here, I will be clear that I am in no way disputing Hemings's parentage. She is John Wayles's daughter and Martha Jefferson's half-sister. She may well have resembled Martha, but if the article is going to state that Abigail Adams wrote as much in her letters, that will require a citation. Vague | Rant 15:50, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Parthena (Παρθένα) is a Greek name which literally means "Maiden" of "Virgin". Somewhat unusual for the name of an American person. Dimadick (talk) 16:11, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

In your edit summary, you didn't merely claim the assertions about Abigail Adams were un-sourced. You stated they were not true!!! However, you are correct that they are unsourced in this article. I did your reversion both early in the morning, and in a hurry. I will get appropriate sources.WickerGuy (talk) 17:29, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

There Has Never Been Proof That Thomas Jefferson Fathered Sally Heming's Children

Of Hemings' several children, only the youngest, Eston, has descendants with DNA from someone in the Jefferson line. At the time Eston was conceived, Thomas Jefferson was 65 years old. He may still have been capable of fathering a child. However, his hard-drinking younger brother Randolph, and Randolph's five sons, who were in their teens and twenties, frequently visited and stayed at Monticello. So did other male Jeffersons. Frankly, it's more likely that one of these younger men fathered Eston than Thomas, who actually wrote pamphlets against relations between the races. As for oral tradition? Descendants of Madison Hemings have said that their own oral tradition was that somebody they called "the uncle," not Thomas, fathered Hemings' children. They have separated themselves from the Sally/Thomas claims. Others excitedly insist that a "secret room" has been discovered in which Sally and Thomas met. However, when you read about this discovery, it turns out nobody knows what the room was for. It could have been a place to bathe, a primitive bathroom, a place to store canning or linen. An unsupported favorite narrative is not fact. The only real proof would be scientific, consisting of DNA in a Hemings descendant which is specifically from Thomas. This has never been found. Following is a link to some DNA analyses. https://pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jefferson/true/primer.html Younggoldchip (talk) 20:44, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Hello Younggoldchip! I urge you to update the article with any reliable sources you feel are not currently presented fairly.

Also, if I may gently nudge you, it's time to move on from Jefferson, we have other presidents to research. Would love some help examining Andrew Johnson and slavery#Paternity of Dolly Johnson's children, William Henry Harrison and Dilsia (slave), and John Tyler and the unidentified enslaved woman who were allegedly the parents of John Dunjee? We also really need a genuine article on Zachary Taylor and slavery, not just a redirect. We could also use an article assessing the current historiography on U.S. national leaders in mixed-race relationships prior to Emancipation, beginning with Jefferson, naturally, heavily featuring Richard Mentor Johnson and Julia Chinn, of course, and likely concluding with Thaddeus Stevens and Lydia Hamilton Smith. Primary sources on private lives of politicians are always coveted and thus hard to come by, but it would be interesting to see the way these relationships have been treated by secondary sources (different journalists and historians) over time. Thanks so much for volunteering to help with Wikipedia. We have a lot to do and we need all the help we can get! jengod (talk) 22:06, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Dear Jengold, I would love to move on from Thomas and Sally, as you gently suggest. However, this is hard for me as certain words and concepts are important to me, such as Reality,Facts, Proof, and Encyclopedia. Early in the article the writer states, "At some time during (their) 26 months months in Paris, the widower Jefferson began intimate relations with her..." If this were a bodice-ripper novel, this claim would be fine. But in an encyclopedia? Where no proof at all exists? And the most dubious oral tradition is presented as if it were Scripture? Jengold, I think the person you should be gently nudging to walk away would be whatever fantasist wrote the article. Where do they live, Brigadoon? It's not impossible that an old Founding Father who wore his dead wife's hair in a locket over his heart until he died would also exploit an enslaved woman. But there's no reliable evidence to prove that he did. I know this is a hard concept for obsessed people to accept. Still, here it is: reality is not whatever you prefer to believe.

As for the many other allegations of master/slave relations among the famous that you mention, I'm sure some happened, some didn't, and Wikipedians should have fun digging in.

2600:1702:E30:D970:9091:26D5:B8E3:8161 (talk) 18:07, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Please submit your complaint letters to Jefferson biographers and historians for review and assessment of your arguments. Have a blessed day. jengod (talk) jengod (talk) 18:59, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Brutal.;-) Carlstak (talk) 20:26, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Actually, Jengod, it's not that radical to suggest that an encyclopedia article shouldn't present speculation as fact. Or to point out that a claim isn't necessarily true just because it's a favorite narrative. It would be nice if advances in DNA testing clear this matter up before we're dead. And, have a blessed day yourself.

Younggoldchip (talk) 12:10, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

2600:1702:E30:D970:E08C:5690:8A1:8940 (talk) 12:03, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

80 year old men can produce children. 65 years old is NOT out of the realm of possibility. 2600:8801:3909:F300:5C09:6D77:E743:75A9 (talk) 18:55, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

I never said that Jefferson, at 65, COULDN'T have children. I simply said that there is no proof that he did. And there isn't. Since the whole article and Talk are rife with speculation, I'll speculate. Who was Eston's father? I would put my money on either hard-drinking brother Randolph, or one of Randolph's horny sons, who were in their teens and twenties and often visited Monticello. Younggoldchip (talk) 19:11, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Fair to say that Sally was ONLY 14

There should be no debate about whether Sally was raped by Jefferson. She was 14 years old and an enslaved child who had NO rights therefore, she did not have a choice. She was considered property. 2600:8801:3909:F300:5C09:6D77:E743:75A9 (talk) 18:43, 24 November 2023 (UTC)