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→Useless reference for Israeli support of Hamas: Reply: fair enough, I suppose.
Line 212: Line 212:
:It is a standard reference style in many refereed academic journals and one I've used in many Wikipedia articles.
:It is a standard reference style in many refereed academic journals and one I've used in many Wikipedia articles.
:Thanks for your concern about the quality of Wikipedia articles. [[User:DavidMCEddy|DavidMCEddy]] ([[User talk:DavidMCEddy|talk]]) 12:25, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
:Thanks for your concern about the quality of Wikipedia articles. [[User:DavidMCEddy|DavidMCEddy]] ([[User talk:DavidMCEddy|talk]]) 12:25, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
::I had just realised that that was what you had done, and came here to make a note. I first read the article on a mobile phone, where that style is rather unhelpful, as it just seemed to be a dead end because there was no further link visible. I realise now that it is not that unreasonable, but I do think the usual style, providing a link directly in the reference is more helpful. Also, digital journals often have links in the text to their references. [[User:PJTraill|PJTraill]] ([[User talk:PJTraill|talk]]) 15:39, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Revision as of 15:39, 23 January 2024

1988 Gulf War?

This does not make sense: "Between February and April 1988, Sheikh Ahmed Yassin raised several millions dollars from the Gulf states, which had withdrawn their funding from Fatah following its official support of Saddam Hussein during the first Gulf War."

Either the date is wrong or the occasion, unless the Iraq-Iran war is meant, which was originally called the Gulf War? Edith71 (talk) 06:03, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How could Israel "support Hamas in the 1970's" when Hamas did not even exist at that time?

Hamas descended from a local arm of the Moslem Brotherhood, which has existed since the 1920's and was spawned in Egypt. This article reads like one giant polemic between Left and Right, i.e. the Israeli Left blaming the Israeli Right for supporting the "Right" (Islamists) on the other side at the expense of the "Left" (Arab Nationalists). It has no basis in fact. The existence of Islamic fundementalism has always had a following in the region. A case in point is Sheikh Izadeen al-Kassem, who had a large following among Palestinian Arabs in the 1930's.

Sorry to say, but this article is symptomatic of Wikipedia's ever-slipping standards in quality and factual information, which sadly appear to inversely proportion to its representation on the Internet, which is now bordering on monopoly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.68.95.65 (talk) 19:47, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Multiple sources say that Hamas was founded in the late 1970s as a religious counterweight to the secular Fatah. Hasan and Sayedahmed (2018) cite multiple sources supporting that claim.[1] A 2023-10-08 report in The Times of Israel reported that that support has continued under Netanyahu up to the massive attacks of October 7.[2]
King (2009) wrote that the nonviolence of the First Intifada "neither lifted the military occupation nor stopped the implanting of Israeli settlements in lands set aside for the Palestinians by the United Nations. Nevertheless, the uprising's nonviolent sanctions achieved more than had decades of armed attacks on largely civilian targets. ... Israeli agents provacateurs in Arab disguise ... joined demonstrations and sought to incite demonstrators to use violence. The local committee [organizing the nonviolent demonstrations] prevented such provocations from instigating lethal escalations." The First Intifada disintegrated "into violence after Israel's incarceration, deportation, or discrediting of the very activist intellectuals who had sustained the uprising's nonviolent character".[3] 2023-11-08T18:25:08‎ User:DavidMCEddy

References

  1. ^ Mehdi Hasan; Dina Sayedahmed (19 February 2018). "Blowback: How Israel Went From Helping Create Hamas to Bombing It". The Intercept. Wikidata Q123370975.
  2. ^ Tal Schneider (8 October 2023). "For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it's blown up in our faces". The Times of Israel. Wikidata Q123370941.
  3. ^ Pp. 146, 150 and 131 in Mary King (2009), Palestinian civil resistance against Israeli military occupation, Wikidata Q108909718

Removing of the image

File:Gilad Shalit on Hamas poster.jpg What's wrong in having this image in the article. it is hamas own poster. what neutrality we're talking about?--Mbz1 (talk) 14:57, 19 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No point in duplicating discussions. See Talk:Hamas#Removing of the image. Tarc (talk) 20:09, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

More or less transferred far more complete pre-2006 history sections from main Hamas article.

I hope there will be no objections to the general idea.Haberstr (talk) 15:23, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

against Israeli civilians and military targets

How exactly is that more accurate than against Israel? Is there a third category that Im missing here? nableezy - 04:25, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

One might expect a paramilitary organization to restrict its violence to military, and perhaps governmental, targets. Hamas does not. It targets civilians, and that fact is obfuscated by the language you just restored. The Editorial Voice (talk) 04:31, 21 January 2013 (UTC)<[reply]
I should note that this is as opposed to a "terrorist" organization, which one would expect to target civilians. However, as the lede does not so identify Hamas, it should be made clear that their targets do include non-combatant civilians. The Editorial Voice (talk) 04:33, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Im not an expect in what one might expect. I also dont see the obfuscation. Hamas has targeted Israel and Israelis. Ill also note that if one were to compare this and an article on the history of another group that has attacked civilians and military targets (the IDF), they might find what is highlighted in each rather asymmetrical. I wonder why that is. nableezy - 04:47, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I know why that is: WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. I'd encourage you to bring your concerns to the appropriate talk pages. This isn't one of them.
I'm also sorry that you don't understand the distinction between a military target and a non-combatant, so I will spell it out for you:
  • A military organization is empowered with employing lethal force against legitimate military targets. As such, when someone says, for example "Allied forces attacked Germany," it is assumed that Allied forces attacked German military targets; not that they blew up busloads of children.
  • Hamas, on the other hand, is described in the article as a military, but targets civilians. That's why it's not sufficient to state that they target "Israel;" rather, it should be spelled out that their targets intentionally include non-combatants and bystanders.
Frankly, I think Hamas should be described as a terrorist organization in the lede, in which case I'd have no problem with the language you prefer when describing their targets. However, I suspect that would be less palatable to you. Agreed? The Editorial Voice (talk) 05:05, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
OTE explains that? Really? Have you read that? Do you see where that link takes you? And please dont distort what I wrote, nowhere in what I have written will you find anything that remotely supports the idea that I don't understand the distinction between a military target and a non-combatant. Frankly, what you want Hamas to be described as doesnt concern me. Just as somebody saying that Hamas should be described as the resistance to a foreign invasion doesnt concern me. What does concern me is that we have policies at this website that restrict people from being able to broadcast their personal views in an encyclopedia article as though they were fact. nableezy - 05:22, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sigh. You misunderstood me. The answer to your question about why things are the way they are in other articles that are not the one under discussion on this talk page is that WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. That Hamas's targets include civilians is not a personal view, it's an objective fact that I intend to restore to the lede. The Editorial Voice (talk) 05:32, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
And it is an objective fact that against Israeli civilians and military targets is covered, completely, by against Israel. nableezy - 05:37, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, and if you intend to "restore" (ie "revert") what you know does not have consensus you may well be reported for edit-warring. And, again, have you read OSE? nableezy - 05:39, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see any consensus for your revert either. But because I'm the better person, I'm not going to threaten you over it. The Editorial Voice (talk) 05:41, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You should probably check the article history. Going back to at least 2010 the article said the organization conducted numerous suicide bombings and other attacks against Israel and its occupation of the Palestinian Territories. That was changed, recently, to Israeli civilians and military targets. That lasted all of 22 hours before it was again changed to against Israel. If you would like to go back to what the article had said prior to these changes, that being the organization conducted numerous suicide bombings and other attacks against Israel and its occupation of the Palestinian Territories, by all means, feel free. But trying to force through a change is edit-warring, and will be reported. But I should know not to tell my betters such things. nableezy - 05:47, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oy vey. I've asked you to knock off the intimidation tactics before, and I'm asking you again. Please stop threatening me, it's annoying. The Editorial Voice (talk) 05:53, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
A request that you abide by the same rules that apply to the rest of us is not an intimidation tactic. I see that you choose t revert without consensus. Ive taken that to the appropriate venue, and Ill wait for the resolution there. nableezy - 06:04, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 October 2023

Remove dangling reference "By M.A. Philipp Holtmann, p. 16</ref>" (Section "The 1990s", first paragraph.). Rxtreme (talk) 04:16, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Done ARandomName123 (talk)Ping me! 22:16, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Militants" or "terrorists" after Oct 7 2023

how can Hamas be referred to as anything other than terrorists after the atrocities committed against civilians on October 7, 2023? Not to mention the suicide bombings of the Second Intifada.

Massacres of 260 young people at a rave, 40 babies at Kfar Aza, murdering entire families at Be'eri Nir Oz and other towns, and wiki still calls them militants rather than terrorists? 68.193.48.39 (talk) 20:23, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

support from Israel

I read, but am not sure if it is correct, that Israel has overtly or covertly supported Hamas for various reasons. eg, it is stated that in the last few years, the Israeli PM Netanyahu has supported Hamas as a way to prevent the Palestinians from forming a united group that would be pro peace in some way — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.245.17.105 (talk) 19:41, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Israeli support continuing into 2023

I don't understand this entire section. It's quoting an opinion piece as a source of fact and painting a picture that Netanyahu's grant of Gazan worker permits is proof of intentional Hamas support in 2023? I don't think a massive block quote of an opinion without any external sources citing any of the claims should be allowed to exist, there needs to be better sources and citations/references for that entire section. 2601:602:A380:4A30:50BD:3B80:69B:5DC6 (talk) 19:19, 13 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

i see the new paragraph added to the section, and there are still issues. Any statement in bold is a direct quote from the article.
The first one is a misuse of quotations.
The entry in the Wiki article:
Netanyahu said "that having two strong rivals, including Hamas, would lessen pressure on him to negotiate toward a Palestinian state."
This is not a quote from Netanyahu. this is a paraphrased quote from Mr. Margalit. Entire paragraph from article cited as reference:
As far back as December 2012, Mr. Netanyahu told the prominent Israeli journalist Dan Margalit that it was important to keep Hamas strong, as a counterweight to the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. Mr. Margalit, in an interview, said that Mr. Netanyahu told him that having two strong rivals, including Hamas, would lessen pressure on him to negotiate toward a Palestinian state.
The other issue is the issue of mischaracterization/incorrect summary of the cited article.
This paragraph is taking two situations, Qatari cash flow to Gaza and the paraphrased quote from Mr. Margalit, and passing it off that Netanyahu intentionally & explicitly supported Qatari funding Hamas. This is an incorrect summary of the article.
The article explicitly states that:
1. The Qatari money Israel allowed was used for humanitarian purposes.
The money from Qatar had humanitarian goals like paying government salaries in Gaza and buying fuel to keep a power plant running.
"Any attempt to cast a shadow of uncertainty about the civilian and humanitarian nature of Qatar’s contributions and their positive impact is baseless,” a Qatari official said in a statement.
Multiple Israeli governments enabled money to go to Gaza for humanitarian reasons, not to strengthen Hamas, an official in Mr. Netanyahu’s office said in a statement.
Qatar, during this period, became a key financier for reconstruction and government operations in Gaza.
During a 2018 cabinet meeting, Mr. Netanyahu’s aides presented a new plan: Every month, the Qatari government would make millions of dollars in cash payments directly to people in Gaza as part of a cease-fire agreement with Hamas.
Shin Bet, the country’s domestic security service, would monitor the list of recipients to try to ensure that members of Hamas’s military wing would not directly benefit.
2. The Qatari aid, if helpful for Hamas, was because it allowed Hamas to free up their own allocations of cash and use it for military operations, not because Israel was allowing direct funding from Qatar to Hamas.
But Israeli intelligence officials now believe that the money had a role in the success of the Oct. 7 attacks, if only because the donations allowed Hamas to divert some of its own budget toward military operations.
“Money is fungible,” said Chip Usher, a senior Middle East analyst at the C.I.A. until his retirement this year. “Anything that Hamas didn’t have to use out of its own budget freed up money for other things.”
3. Any money Qatar did send that was used for military purposes was passed off through "other channels" (IE, not through the channel Israel allowed)
Separately, Israeli intelligence has long assessed that Qatar uses other channels to secretly fund Hamas’ military wing, an accusation that Qatar’s government has denied.
This second paragraph under this section needs to be fixed. Also, the first paragraph under this section seems irrelevant and should either be removed, or the section should be renamed. I fail to see how granting Gazan work permits is Israeli support of Hamas. 2601:602:A380:4A30:50BD:3B80:69B:5DC6 (talk) 01:24, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@2601:602:A380:4A30:50BD:3B80:69B:5DC6: Fix the second paragraph and explain why the first paragraph does not accurately reflect the claims in the source and why that does not support the section heading, "Israeli support continuing into 2023". Thanks, DavidMCEddy (talk) 02:28, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have permissions to fix the second paragraph, so I will post an updated version below if you were to make it relevant to the section heading.
On December 10, 2023, the New York Times reported that Qatari officials had delivered millions of dollars per month in cash to Gaza, "billions of dollars over roughly a decade," intended for civilian & humanitarian aid, with the approval and support of Israel. Israeli intelligence had assessed that the Qatari government has, through other channels, provided direct funding to Hamas for military operations. Some claim that Israel's knowledge, but lack of intervention, on this back-channel cash flow from Qatar to Hamas is a showing of implicit Israeli support for Hamas's funding.
Erel Margalit, an Israeli high-tech and social entrepreneur, stated in an interview that "Mr. Netanyahu told him that having two strong rivals, including Hamas, would lessen pressure on him to negotiate toward a Palestinian state."
As for the first paragraph, my claiming is not that it's an inaccurate representation of the cited source, I haven't analyzed the source against the paragraph yet. My claim is that what is being stated in the paragraph is irrelevant to the section heading.
The entire paragraph boils down to "Israel had discussions about granting Gazan work permits (supposedly in 2021, but the paragraph is not clear on when those discussions happened), and because Hamas was included in those discussions, Israel was supporting Hamas in 2023"? How does that make sense? 2601:602:A380:4A30:50BD:3B80:69B:5DC6 (talk) 03:16, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
any update on this? 2601:602:A380:4A30:A5F0:39BF:2902:A1DC (talk) 19:25, 14 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's troubling that the misuse of quotations and inaccurate summary of a cited source still exists, when will this be resolved? 2601:602:A380:4A30:7123:34B:FF84:4DE0 (talk) 17:46, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not convinced that the current text misrepresents the documents cited nor the current situation as you claim, and I have other priorities that seem more urgent and important to allow me to spend more time on this right now. DavidMCEddy (talk) 17:52, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The paragraph is literally misusing quotations and you're not going to fix that?
Netanyahu said "that having two strong rivals, including Hamas, would lessen pressure on him to negotiate toward a Palestinian state."
vs
Mr. Margalit, in an interview, said that Mr. Netanyahu told him that having two strong rivals, including Hamas, would lessen pressure on him to negotiate toward a Palestinian state. 2601:602:A380:4A30:7123:34B:FF84:4DE0 (talk) 18:03, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
this is the most troubling part of the paragraph, and needs to be fixed. 2601:602:A380:4A30:7123:34B:FF84:4DE0 (talk) 18:08, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Just weeks before October 7, the head of Mossad told Qatari officials that "Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel not only tolerated those payments, he had encouraged them.
Also, the article makes it very clear that the Prime Minister/Israel encouraged the humanitarian payments that were going to Gaza. Nothing in the article supports the representation you're making in the paragraph that Netanyahu supports the back-channel cash-flow to Hamas. Can you explain where in the article it is insinuated that Netanyahu/Israel supported money going to Hamas from Qatar? 2601:602:A380:4A30:7123:34B:FF84:4DE0 (talk) 18:07, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Misuse of quotations

−
Netanyahu said "that having two strong rivals, including Hamas, would lessen pressure on him to negotiate toward a Palestinian state."
+
Erel Margalit, an Israeli entrepreneur, stated in an interview that "Mr. Netanyahu told him that having two strong rivals, including Hamas, would lessen pressure on him to negotiate toward a Palestinian state."

Mr. Margalit, in an interview, said that Mr. Netanyahu told him that having two strong rivals, including Hamas, would lessen pressure on him to negotiate toward a Palestinian state. Faebie (talk) 18:22, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Question: I'm not sure if the whole "high-tech and social entrepreneur" bit is needed, could we just use "entrepreneur"? Lewcm Talk to me! 20:02, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
that works! was mostly copying the intro sentence from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erel_Margalit I don't think the high-tech is super relevant to describing him here Faebie (talk) 20:08, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
updated the diff Faebie (talk) 20:14, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Brilliant thank you, I've completed as requested in the new diff. Lewcm Talk to me! 14:37, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
 Done Lewcm Talk to me! 14:37, 16 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Useless reference for Israeli support of Hamas

The reference supporting the first paragraph of History_of_Hamas#Israeli_support_continuing_into_2023 (contributed by @DavidMCEddy: here and initially reverted) says merely “Schneider (2023)”. This is totally inadequate. PJTraill (talk) 11:33, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In the "References" section, I find the following:
What's the problem with this?
It is a standard reference style in many refereed academic journals and one I've used in many Wikipedia articles.
Thanks for your concern about the quality of Wikipedia articles. DavidMCEddy (talk) 12:25, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I had just realised that that was what you had done, and came here to make a note. I first read the article on a mobile phone, where that style is rather unhelpful, as it just seemed to be a dead end because there was no further link visible. I realise now that it is not that unreasonable, but I do think the usual style, providing a link directly in the reference is more helpful. Also, digital journals often have links in the text to their references. PJTraill (talk) 15:39, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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