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Liberia

Why is Liberia omitted from this article? It should be classified as a settler colonial state akin to Israel and Taiwan. DaRealPrinceZuko (talk) 08:14, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source? (t · c) buidhe 15:54, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2006/03/our-liberian-legacy/304821/ DaRealPrinceZuko (talk) 19:42, 9 January 2024

As far as I can tell, that article doesn't mention settler colonialism. (t · c) buidhe 23:30, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The article described Liberia as an American colony formed by the American Colonization Society to repatriate African-Americans. DaRealPrinceZuko (talk) 04:53, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the concept of settler colonialism. In order to merit inclusion in this article, at a minimum the source must be about settler colonialism. This source is not, so it does not meet the criteria. See WP:NOR. (btw, I disagree with the "by country" format, because I don't think it's helpful for conveying information and distracts from the key aspects of the topic). (t · c) buidhe 05:21, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that Liberia was a colony settled by African-Americans actually proves my point of the American Colonization Society being a settler colonial project. Have a look at the Colony of Liberia article. DaRealPrinceZuko (talk) 06:55, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 February 2024

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Opening paragraph change "per-existing population of a region" to pre-existing population of a region" Steveqj (talk) 13:10, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done Sincerely, Guessitsavis (she/they) (Talk) 14:20, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why is this topic confined to post-15th century examples

The definition of "settler colonialism" given in the article seems to apply equally well to colonialism as practiced by empires in previous eras, such as the Phoenician?Carthaginian quasi-empire, the empire of Alexander and his generals, the Roman empire, the Mongol empire, etc. Should not these also be included in the article? K.a.carroll (talk) 20:15, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

K.a.carroll you're right that the article needs a lot of work. However, you will have to look at the books about settler colonialism to find out what they cover and emphasize. (t · c) buidhe 02:02, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Some people are starting to ask questions but in general I don't think you'll find this terms applied to non-European conquests involving population movements and we have to follow reliable sources. Alaexis_¿question? 12:04, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

But you will find it applied to older European conquests involving population movements, such as Greek settler colonialism in Sicily. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:30, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You're right. Alaexis_¿question? 22:31, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Non-notable book

User:Buidhe reverted my latest edit and argues that Empire of the People: Settler Colonialism and the Foundations of Modern Democratic Thought is a notable book and should be redlinked.

It doesn't seem like this book meets the GNG, and shouldn't be redlinked because it's not notable. I would just revert, but since this article has 1RR, I thought I would bring these here. Peter L Griffin (talk) 00:09, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Same also appears to go for Settler Capitalism by Donald Denoon. Peter L Griffin (talk) 00:10, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Did you do a quick Google Scholar search? Empire of the People has several reviews, and is a straightforward WP:NBOOK pass [1]

Same with Settler Capitalism, which was still getting reviewed decades after being published! [2] (t · c) buidhe 01:03, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Archetype?

While both are widely considered examples of settler colonialism, I think it's more accurate to say the archetype was the Anglo-American settlements. In comparison, the Zionist colonialization has not been as successful to date. In the US or Australia, there is no longer a Indigenous population significant enough to challenge political power in the country. We should strive for high quality sources which means looking at academic papers and books, not The Atlantic. (t · c) buidhe 03:50, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Atlantic article is opposed to the concept of settler colonialism as a frame of analysis. However, it is quoting Patrick Wolfe and other scholars in the field, who state that Israel is a far better example than the British settler colonies.

They based their analysis of settler colonialism primarily on Israel. Rather than East Timor, the British settler colonies, and what not. As the Wikipedia article should reflect what they claim: Israel is their given example. KlayCax (talk) 03:56, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can you copy paste the quotes here? Maybe we can check if they are typical or perhaps cherry-picked. (t · c) buidhe 04:02, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wolfe and many of his fellow theorists tossed down a final desultory intellectual move. Surveying a worldwide tapestry of colonial oppressions and conquests, they insisted that a single nation offered the sharpest and most troubling example of settler colonialism: Israel... Wolfe wrote that Israel was unique for its Jewish founders’ deceptive ideological sleights of hand, their “self-hatred,” and the denial of its oppression and “extirpation” of the Arabs. “Zionism rigorously refused, as it continues to refuse, any suggestion of Native assimilation,” Wolfe wrote. “Zionism,” Wolfe insisted, “constitutes a more exclusive exercise of the settler logic of elimination than we encounter in the Australian and U.S. examples.” Wolfe (and most scholars of settler colonialism) based their theories on Israel, @Buidhe:. Wolfe argued that the British settler colonies often zig-zagged in and out of settler colonialism. In contrast, he saw it as a fundamental part of Zionism and Israeli identity as a whole.

According to Google scholar: Israel is mentioned 10x compared to any individual British settler colony. (Australia, Canada, New Zealand, United States.) KlayCax (talk) 04:07, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is a misrepresentation of Wolfe's point of view. If you look up [the context he is talking about the difference between Zionism and most other forms of settler colonialism–Zionism never recognized assimilation at all. Given that this is a difference, it hardly suggests that Zionism is a typical or archetypical example of settler colonialism. (t · c) buidhe 04:15, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

On the other hand the article already cites:

"SCS has privileged the analysis of the Anglo-settler world—primarily North America and Oceania."https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/anti.12659
"they constitute the archetype of settler colonialism, the CANZUS states alone voted against the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples"[https://www.taylorfrancis.com/chapters/edit/10.4324/9780203085028-1/locating-indigenous-self-determination-margins-settler-sovereignty-lisa-ford
[The Routledge handbook also suggests that the concept originated to describe British colonies (t · c) buidhe 04:09, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There certainly have been alternative conceptions. But I'm referring to the dominant opinion within the field, @Buidhe:. Albeit I know that it's somewhat controversial.

(But so is the field itself + which nations are "settler colonialist".) KlayCax (talk) 04:15, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We can't cite a the Atlantic for what is the mainstream opinion in the field. Wolfe is certainly important and reliable for his own view, but I'm not sure he is even arguing what you are suggesting. (t · c) buidhe 04:17, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Atlantic is considered a WP: RS per WP:RSP. We certainly can cite them in this particular instance, @Buidhe:. By far, the field takes as its archetype Israel. Wolfe argued that the British settler colonies alternated between settler colonialism and alternative forms of imperialism. In contrast, he viewed Zionism itself as intrinsically settler colonialist. That's the difference. KlayCax (talk) 04:22, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Atlantic may be reliable for some topics (it's overrated imv), but the author of this article is not an expert in the field of settler colonialism or anything related. While I cannot read the full text, I am unsure if this is supposed to be straight journalism or an op ed/analysis (which would make it not reliable except for the opinion of the author). In any event, when there are a million scholarly sources it is hard to justify citing one that has much less expertise and academic rigor. If you think Wolfe disagrees with the overall statements about settler colonial studies, please cite him directly and not via the Atlantic. (t · c) buidhe 04:29, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 81: / Line 81: @@
 :::::We can't cite a the Atlantic for what is the mainstream opinion in the field. Wolfe is certainly important and reliable for his own view, but I'm not sure he is even arguing what you are suggesting. ([[User talk:Buidhe|t]] &#183; [[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|c]]) '''[[User:buidhe|<span style="color: black">buidhe</span>]]''' 04:17, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 ::::::''The Atlantic'' is considered a [[WP: RS]] per [[WP:RSP]]. We certainly can cite them in this particular instance, {{ping|buidhe}}. By far, the field takes as its archetype Israel. Wolfe argued that the British settler colonies alternated between settler colonialism and alternative forms of imperialism. In contrast, he viewed [[Zionism]] itself as ''intrinsically'' settler colonialist. That's the difference. [[User:KlayCax|KlayCax]] ([[User talk:KlayCax|talk]]) 04:22, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
+:::::::The Atlantic may be reliable for some topics (it's overrated imv), but the author of this article is not an expert in the field of settler colonialism or anything related. While I cannot read the full text, I am unsure if this is supposed to be straight journalism or an op ed/analysis (which would make it not reliable except for the opinion of the author). In any event, when there are a million scholarly sources it is hard to justify citing one that has much less expertise and academic rigor. If you think Wolfe disagrees with the overall statements about settler colonial studies, please cite him directly and not via the Atlantic. ([[User talk:Buidhe|t]] &#183; [[Special:Contributions/Buidhe|c]]) '''[[User:buidhe|<span style="color: black">buidhe</span>]]''' 04:29, 22 May 2024 (UTC)