Talk:Chŏng Mong-ju

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Requested move 14 May 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus so move back to long term title of Jeong Mong-ju  — Amakuru (talk) 09:29, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

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Jeong Mongju → Jeong Mong-ju – 95.77.154.17 had asserted with a BOLD edit the name should be Jeong Mong-ju not Jeong Mongju. I reverted due to no reason/edit-sumamry given and causing errors (such as breaking the image and commons category link). However they have posted both a general message on my talk page and the list of sources below. The article was moved from Jeong Mong-ju 17 April 2017‎ at the request of User:Brett Cox citing Revised Romanization of Korean. Source from 95.77.154.17 follow:

Then, see all these very reliable sources about Jeong Mong-ju (and not Jeong Mongju):

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzWcpmqaX2E (00:39, 01:45, 02:15, 02:45, etc.) Arirang is a Korean television and knows how to transliterate Korean names. - so, it’s an authority! Jeong Mong-ju’s is with “-”.

2. Two sites - a Korean book of history, written by a Korean author: Kang Jae-eun. Even his name is with “-”: See pages 257, 258, etc. - where Jeong Mong-ju’s name has “-”. Also, you’ll see that all Korean names have “-”! See also the book cover with author’s name: Kang Jae-eun. https://books.google.ro/books?id=XB4UYXNQK1wC&pg=PA257&lpg=PA257&dq=Jeong+Mong-ju+in+korean+sites&source=bl&ots=8Ze1Rjcm68&sig=a4T54qXOQ_XEbBkVAtmBcr_mSNw&hl=ro&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjJponbme7TAhUEG5oKHeozCQUQ6AEIZjAJ#v=onepage&q=Jeong%20Mong-ju%20in%20korean%20sites&f=false and http://www.homabooks.com/general/books/east_asia/korea/1045.php

3. The site of the National Museum of Korea - a very reliable source about Jeong Mong-ju. Here: https://www.museum.go.kr/site/eng/relic/represent/view?relicId=493 , here https://www.museum.go.kr/site/eng/relic/represent/view?relicId=2938 , here https://www.museum.go.kr/site/eng/relic/represent/view?relicId=2707 ,

4. For Korean names, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Korean_given_names . Almost all Korean names have “-”.

5. For other Korean names, see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PdWDpqQNTg 00:44 and 01:10 for Moon Jae-in, 01:36 for Yim Dong-wook, 01:48 for Kim Ji-yeon. So, all Korean names have “-”.

6. On Jeong Mong-ju (with “-”) - see the site of Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Republic of Korea: http://overseas.mofa.go.kr/webmodule/htsboard/template/read/legengreadboard.jsp?typeID=16&boardid=9625&seqno=708199&c=&t=&pagenum=1&tableName=TYPE_ENGLEGATIO&pc=&dc=&wc=&lu=&vu=&iu=&du=

7. On Jeong Mong-ju (with “-“), see the book: https://www.morebooks.de/gb/search?page=2&q=Goryeo&search_term=Goryeo&via_keyword=1

8. Harvard University: see pages 38 and 39 on Jeong Mong-ju (written “Chong Mong-ju”), with “-”: http://isites.harvard.edu/fs/docs/icb.topic787489.files/Early%20Korean%20Lit%203%20-%20Choson.pdf

It would appear that at least several of the users sources are reliable sources, also the authority controls for Worldcat and VIAF bother concur with Jeong Mong-ju being correct. Also Revised Romanization of Korean does not appear to preclude the use of the hyphen and it fact it states It is permitted to hyphenate syllables in the given name, following common practice. where in this case the common practice (WP:COMMONNAME) is Jeong Mong-ju.

As such I concur with 95.77.154.17 that the page should be moved back. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 10:49, 14 May 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. SkyWarrior 14:40, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

• I support the proposed move for procedural reasons (to undo an undiscussed controversial move) but oppose it on the merits. This is a historical personage who never had a personal Romaja spelling of his name. As such, we should follow the Wikipedia house style, i.e. RR, and there's no reason not to use it without the hyphen as preferred. The MR-derived spelling Chong Mongju is probably more common than either of the choices here so WP:UCN arguments don't really hold. —  AjaxSmack  03:32, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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'Revolutionary'?

Really? I see nothing in the article that could justify that label. Attempting some reforms (which aren't described properly, so I don't even know how major they were) doesn't make one a revolutionary. For that matter, the description of the first Joseon king as a 'radical revolutionary' is odd, too. Just overthrowing an old dynasty and founding a new one doesn't make one a 'radical revolutionary'. The main article about the man says: 'Taejo emphasized continuity over change. No new institutions were created and no massive purges occurred during his reign. His new dynasty was largely dominated by the same ruling families and officials that had served the previous regime.' Doesn't sound very 'revolutionary' to me even by the standards of medieval founders of new dynasties. 62.73.69.121 (talk) 10:27, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

I agree that he was not a revolutionary, which is why I have removed that description which is unsupported by any sources. In fact most sources stated that he was a moderate reformer who opposed the founding a different dynasty.⁂CountHacker (talk) 19:23, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 4 July 2024

Jeong Mong-ju → Chŏng Mong-ju – Per WP:NCKO, McCune–Reischauer romanization should be used for pre-1945 Korean names. I would also argue it to be the more common name as well. Via Google NGrams [1], both Chong Mong-ju and its non-hyphenated form Chong Mongju, are more popular compared to Jeong Mong-ju. The sources I found (as well as in the article) also mostly preferred the McCune–Reischauer variant over Revised Romanization variant ⁂CountHacker (talk) 19:20, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. Since English language does not contain accents or diacritics, transliterations into English from languages that do not use the Latin alphabet likewise should not contain any marks that are not part of English. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 20:24, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

  Per MOS:DIACRITICS, the usage of diacritics in non-English words is neither encouraged nor discouraged. Use generally depends on whether they appear in reliable English-language sources, though with some additional constraints imposed by site guidelines. Also, if your opposition is just to diacritics only, would you be okay with moving it to just "Chong Mong-ju" as "the romanization of names should adhere to a particular widely used system for the language in question", which for historical pre-1945 Korean figures is McCune–Reischauer. ⁂CountHacker (talk) 20:40, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

My opposition is indeed solely based upon the use of diacritics and I would support the alternative form without the diacritic: Jeong Mong-ju → Chong Mong-ju. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 23:27, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Support the diacritics align with policy. We've hashed this out already before with Roman Spinner at Talk:Kwansŏ. Please do not make us have the same conversation verbatim again. 211.36.142.234 (talk) 09:29, 5 July 2024 (UTC)