Talk:Roman Empire

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Question regarding Emperors

I'm not sure if anyone would know this, but how many Emperors were there, from 27 B.CE. to 1453 CE.?--JonnyLightning (talk) 10:08, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Factual Errors

If we are going to imply that the Roman Empire existed from 27 B.CE. - 1453 C.E., which is already controversial, as the Byzantine Empire, although a direct heir and former part of the Roman Empire, had its own identity, then we must at least clarify in the introduction that the Western Roman Empire had fallen as well as its capital of Ravenna (formerly Rome) in 476 C.E.

It's really incorrect to state that the Classical Roman Empire ended in 1453, when it actually ended almost 1000 years previously.

Though I do agree that the Byzantine Empire should be considered a "Roman" Empire, because although they were Greek in culture, they carried Latin literature, traditions, engineering, law, etc.

Eastern Hemisphere Maps

Someone removed the Eastern Hemisphere maps that depicted the Roman Empire along with other major regional powers. Those maps were on the article for over a month; why were they suddenly removed with no discussion?

Thomas Lessman 14:31, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Look I didn't do it (AFAIremember). On the other hand I would have done it, because the maps are way too big (they show the whole of Europe, Africa, and Asia). Furthermore, the maps show all the countries in these three continents. They are simply too large for this article (which allready has too many images allready). What this article needs are good maps about the Roman Empire and its neighbours which interacted directly with it. Don't forget that "stuff" can always be removed in Wikipedia-articles (and restored), and only when such action is controversial does it require a discussion.

Flamarande 20:20, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I can understand removing one or two of the maps, but removing ALL of them is a bit too much. Sure they are big maps that cover Europe, Africa, and Asia - they were meant to. After all, the Roman Empire ruled parts of all 3 continents, and they had some kind of relationship with nearly every power shown on those maps. None of the other maps in the article shows nearly as much detail, nor do they give the readers nearly as much information as the Eastern Hemisphere maps do - that's why I created and uploaded them to Wikipedia. As has been noted on other articles, Rome traded directly with India and Han China (both of which are depicted in these maps).

Removing the maps deprives readers of great information contained within the maps. They should be reinstated (or at least some of them should be).

Thomas Lessman 21:03, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

There is a good map showing these trade-routes allready. I honestly think that the maps try to show simply too much information at once. They should rather be used in articles which report the history of the whole Eastern hemisphere. I oppose.

Flamarande 22:35, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

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Any information on the demographs of the Roman Empire at the various stages of its history - 1st century ad, 2d century ad, crisis of the third , decline and fall, early byzantine?

Roman Empire a Monarchy?

Could one really define the Roman Empire, at least for much of its existence, as a monarchy? Later on the title of Augustus did become hereditary but this was hardly the case early on. While the Empire was clearly a dictatorship of some sort I think that the name "monarchy" is misleading as the succession was quite often *not* hereditary.

Nivenus (talk) 19:29, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

It's murky terrain. Where do we draw the line between a monarchy and a dictatorship, exactly (or an oligarchy)? Don't forget that there is also the concept of an elective monarchy. ;-)

Anyway, I don't believe the Empire ever did become officially hereditary. Not even in the Byzantine period.

You see, it was a catch-22 for the Romans. They officially despised the monarchy, because Rome had been oppressed by the Etruscan kings in its early history. Embracing a hereditary rule of succession would make it too blatantly obvious to everyone that the Roman "Republic" had degenerated into what it supposedly most hated: a tyranny. So they kept up the appearance of some vague sort of "meritocracy", along with a few republican trappings, like the Senate. The price they paid was constant political turmoil and periodical civil wars. Diocletian realised this was crazy and tried to fix it, but to no avail. The de facto absolute power of the imperium was just too tempting, and the army was too powerful a state within the state.

Note that, as much as the Empire may have feigned "republicanism", for most of its existence it was ruled by loosely knit dynasties. This started already with Augustus. Not only that, but its most stable and prosperous periods were mostly under dynastic rulers.

FilipeS (talk) 22:06, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

And yet it wasn't a monarchy (where normally the son inherits from the father). A dynastic succession was quite the exception in the Roman empire. IMHO it was simply an autocracy.

Flamarande (talk) 15:52, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Where is it said that monarchies must be hereditary? I've never heard of such a thing!

FilipeS (talk) 18:37, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

(resisting urge to make a comment about rules-lawyers) Try to read Hereditary monarchy, "the most common form of monarchy". I grant you that there other forms of monarchy but these are more the exceptions that confirm the rule.

Flamarande (talk) 08:45, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Most common form, yes, but the word "monarchy" by itself does not imply being hereditary. The last remaining absolute monarchy in Europe, for example, is elected; a hereditary monarchy would be impossible for practical reasons there.

Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 10:35, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

(resisting an even stronger urge to make a comment about rules-lawyers and about the excuse of "legal theory") The pope is the elected head of a church (a religious organization); in other words the Vatican is a theocracy and not a kingdom: a monarchy with a ruler and subjects. Thank you for giving another exception that confirms the rule.

Flamarande (talk) 11:03, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I will give you that the case of the Vatican (with the Catholic Church by extension) is debatable, but I don't agree with calling the Holy Roman Empire, which lasted for a thousand years, and incidentally was a cultural successor to the original Roman Empire, for example, "an exception that confirms the rule".

What I think is that terms like "monarchy", "autocracy", "theocracy", "dictatorship", "tyranny", etc. are not always mutually exclusive. Take ancient Egypt: monarchy or theocracy? The Pharaohs were regarded as living gods; but if it was a theocracy, why do we speak of "Old Kingdom", "Middle Kingdom" and "New Kingdom"? Heck, the Roman Emperors themselves were officially regarded as gods, too, until Constantine! Was the Empire a theocracy, then?! There's no point in being dogmatic about such things.

I also think that it's unquestionable that the successive Roman emperors broke or rolled back many of the principles, if not the laws, of the original Roman Republic, by and large towards a greater concentration of power in their hands, and with a tendency to withdraw all power from the most participative (democratic-like) institutions of the old Republic.

If you're still not convinced, take a look at the article Order of succession.

FilipeS (talk) 11:42, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Bah, rules-lawyers, legal theory, political correctness, and all that. The Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation was more a confederation of several states sometimes ruled by a strong leader. The hereditary elector lords (Fuersten und prinzen) choose amongst them the new emperor. How many states do we know of with this system of succession? A mere handful? Even fewer? This makes it not only a exception, but also THE exception. IMHO it was one of the more extraordinary exceptions of all.

To openly worship a ruler as a god does not turn a state into a theocracy. Many rulers of Classical Antiquity where worshipped as living gods and in more recent times the Emperor of Japan also had this status. This doesn't turn their states into theocracies. The real problem and main definition and criteria of a state is the succession issue. How is the new ruler chosen? What are the rules of succession? This is what mostly defines the political status of a state.

Blood relative (normally eldest son or daughter)? Hereditary monarchy. Chosen by the priests of a religion (e.g.: Pope, Dalai Lama)? Theocracy. Ancient Egypt was mostly a monarchy (there always exceptions) because the new ruler wasn't chosen by the clergy but because (normally) he was the eldest son of the old Pharaoh.

The Roman empire was ruled by a lot of persons during many centuries which rose to power by many different means. Some were blood relatives. Others were chosen by the former ruler. Many of them made a military coup and/or were survivors of civil wars, in other words military dictators. Most of them had to bribe the Praetorian Guard and the legions and none of them survived without the support of the army (this point applies always and even today our democracies need the non-interference, acceptance, and loyalty of the military to survive and thrive).

IMHO the standard procedure (this is very debatable) was that the old emperor chose the new ruler. IMHO this makes the Roman empire an autocracy. Monarchies are different exactly because normally the king doesn't choose his heir, in effect he is unable to disinherit his eldest child (yes I know that there are plenty of such cases but the overwhelming majority aren't).

Flamarande (talk) 13:00, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

A point of clarification: Underneath all the vague popular usage, "monarchy" means "rule by one". It doesn't suggest anything about heredity, although that's certainly common (among the Romans as well as many others). It has applied to the Vatican system for many centuries: There is a single ruler, and there is no question within that church who it is.

Conversely, though, "monarchy" DOESN'T apply when the Romans had multiple augusti and/or caesari (if I got that plural right), which was frequent. More so before the West collapsed, but Justin I and his nephew Justinian I (during 527) constitute an example even after the collapse. Making the number of supreme rules slightly ambiguous ("Is it still just one? or do they share decisions or jurisdictions?") was a convenient way of making a smooth transition when the old emperor died.

Who "really" held supreme power probably came down to decisions -- and not always unanimous ones -- among the people who had to obey him/them: the military normally; but sometimes the patricians; and in the Nika riots, a part of the general population, who began to decide who would hold those powers (until they were butchered, that is).

Often, then, the empire as a whole simply wasn't ruled by ONE. From time to time, different parts were ruled by a few, and sometime the whole thing was jointly ruled by a few. Nothing I have seen suggests that the citizens of the time found this anomalous. It was just part of political intrigue and standard practice, sometimes mixed with administrative practicality.

That makes the empire an authoritarian oligarchy (and usually an autocratic one). Jmacwiki (talk) 01:11, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

So, just because it's two people instead of one holding power that makes it an oligarchy? Be serious. FilipeS (talk) 10:19, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Presumably we should call it a duopoly in that case -- if we really believe that nobody else (aristocracy, military, church) could exercise independent power. (I don't believe that, FWIW.) "Rule by a few" seems to cover all the cases. "Rule by one", which was the question for this section, obviously doesn't. Jmacwiki (talk) 18:07, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

The Romano-Mauri Kingdom

One of my most respected sources, Bruce Gordan's Regnal Chrononlogies, makes a mention in his entry for the city of Constantine in north Africa. And Euratlas' maps of Europe in 500 AD and 600 AD both show a "Kingdom of the Romans and Moors in Algeria, not under Vandal control.

Would it be plausible to then say that part of the Western Empire survived the fall of Nepos and Syagrius? I unfortunately don't yet have more information, and wanted to bring it to your mutual attentions. It would make a very interesting note in this and a few other articles... Respectfully,

Thomas Lessman (talk) 07:24, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

I noticed this aswell. It's almost fair to say that some Western Roman institutions survived the empire's collapse, minus central authority in Rome - hence the factions seemingly similar status to that of Syagrius' state.

However, Syagrius' Soissons was conquered by the Franks in 486, and Nepos' Dalmatia by Odoacer in 480.

Yet it seems that these Roman/Moorish lands can be considered the last bastion of the Empire in the west. Considering the Vandals merely sacked and pillaged their way to Hippo Regius, almost certainly avoiding the Roman interior.

If we can somehow prove that these interior lands held some form of autonomy from the Vandals, and show that Belisarius annexed them to the east, then in some ways the Western Roman Empire merely lost central authority, not neccessarily a full collapse. It's even probable that this Roman faction maintained communication with Constantinople.

Tataryn77 (talk) 05:23, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually a user named User:Cplakidas pointed me to the article about the Praetorian prefecture of Africa, where they talk about a war between the Byzantines and the "Romano-Moor Kingdom of Garmul". It's an interesting read, though it's somewhat incomplete, but with the tiny little bit of information available in sources, it still makes an interesting point that we should include in these articles. Imagine if Syagrius' domain had survived Clovis, and Belisarius came knocking on his door...

Thomas Lessman (talk) 20:44, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I added/edited some paragraphs on the Western Roman Empire article but with this heightened clarity of the topic I'll do a little more work soon. However I'd like to bring to attention the fact that the Western Roman Empire never really fell at all. In January of 480 the Western Roman Empire was fractured but we have four factions calling themselves "Roman"; Zeno's Rome, Syagrius' Soissons, Nepo's Dalmatia, and the Romano-Mauri "Kingdom". Problem is, what we're left with now is four states claiming to be Roman, yet none are based at Rome itself. All these peoples are "Romano-???". The bureacracy in the East was Romano-Greek, its "Roman" Emperor an Isaurian, who was born hundreds of miles from Rome, who's people only dreamed of seeing Rome. So it's important we take a step back and consider all these claims of "Roman" status to be equal. A second generation Roman in Mauretania Caesariensis no less so than a second generation Roman in Constantinople. All these states were wearing their Roman culture proudly, even if their emperors, kings and warlords were of a different ethnicity.

Tataryn77 (talk) 00:10, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure, but it looks like the claim of 'continuity of Empire' is based on the use of titles such as rex gentium Maurorum et Romanorum and imperator by foreign rulers, in this case the Mauri. (Maybe based on a single inscription? See [1].) If this is the only criterion, the same status could be given to many of Germanic kingdoms, which also distinguished between their Roman and non-Roman subjects on a juridical level (see for instance the Lex Romana Visigothorum of Visigothic Gaul/Spain).

Iblardi (talk) 01:10, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I see your point, however titles are merely titles, Otto von Habsburg who's 85 today holds many titles; he's the most legitimate Holy Roman Emperor and Byzantine Emperor simultaneously through his genealogy - ironic. The Goths and Franks imposed their rule over the "Roman" population of Gaul, Italy and Hispania. However, these three factions (excluding the east) mentioned earlier represent an unbroken chain of Roman government, in these cases minus central authority. Provincial figures took power when imperial authority was lacking. I think there is a glaring difference between the "Romano-Mauri Kingdom" and the Visigothic Kingdom, for example.

I propose we atleast make a Romano-Mauri Kingdom article so we can pool our thoughts and make further progress through discussion. We'll need to search for more sources but we have enough so far to make a few concise paragraphs on the subject.

In the near future, even formalizing these three factions (Roman Dalmatia, Domain of Soissons, Romano-Mauri Kingdom) as successor states or some other status may be appropriate.

Tataryn77 (talk) 01:45, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree that there should be a seperate article for the Romano-Mauri Kingdom, though we need more information before we start an article about it. And I agree with Tataryn that there is a difference between native Roman successor states (like Syagrius' domains) and Federate Roman successor states (like the Visigoths). They weren't entirely different, but they weren't the same either. Perhaps we could also add onto this article by adding small sections on Native Roman successor states and Federate Roman successor states? You can see its borders on the Euratlas maps I described above, and in any of the maps I've created from 476 AD to 600 AD.

Thomas Lessman (talk) 03:01, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. To me, this still looks more like a takeover of local power by Moorish tribes after the collapse of central authority, which was then legitimized, as elsewhere, by claiming continuity with the Roman institutions. Note that in the inscription cited above the kingship of the Moors is mentioned before that of the Romans, which appears to imply that the first title preceded the other, and could point to Moorish ascendency over the local Roman (or Romanized) population. This would hardly mean a real continuation of Roman government. The use of imperator, on the other hand, is interesting. We'll see.

Iblardi (talk) 00:53, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm planning to take a trip to the to the Toronto Reference Library, its right across the street from my apartment, so I'll look into the History of Roman North Africa - it'll take forever to find.

I have a good skeletal map of Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East; I'm thinking of making some Maps of this region during Roman Republican times through to Late Antiquity. I'll make a more Romano-Mauri centric map, and another depicting it and other Roman "successor" states in 476.

Other maps will focus towards the Eastern Roman Empire from 565-1453. I'll stock the Romano-Mauri related maps for now until more consensus and information is reached in the near future, and an article is made - perhaps by myself.

Tataryn77 (talk) 03:00, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Here's a blank version of the map I use, if you'd like to use it. [2] I'm eventually going to have something similar in my map series, like I did with the Roman Empire in 565 AD map.

Thomas Lessman (talk) 23:50, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks a lot, I've noticed people before were saying how hemisphere maps aren't needed, but I think a large map like that but with the Indus at its easternmost extremity and the Sahara as its south would include all directly relevant cultures around the mediterranean.

It'd be nice to see an eventual standard quality for maps submitted. Some of the East Roman Maps look like someone put them together in 5 minutes and slapped it on the article.

Your large array of maps has been helpful to myself and Im sure many others on wikipedia.

Tataryn77 (talk) 06:25, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Roman View of transition from Republic to Empire?

I am not an expert on either the Roman Republic or Empire. I have a question for those of you who are. Was there any legal or documented conception of a difference between the Roman Republic and the Roman Empire. I realized the government operated differently, but didn't the Roman Emperors believe they were just continuing the Republic. There doesn't seem to be a change in the name of the nation. The motto remained the same (SPQR). And they maintained the same capital (Rome).

So I guess my question is this...is the Roman Empire a modern invention of scholars looking back on events? Or...did the people of Rome conceive of a difference between the Roman Republic and the Roman Empire?

Thnx in advance and keep up the good work everyone!

Scott Free (talk) 04:00, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

It is a matter of propaganda, not of belief. The Roman emperors (especially Octavian) loudly proclaimed that they had restored the republic and the initial emperors liked to pretend that the republic was still alive. At the same time the emperor was commander-in-chief of all the legions, had authority over all provincial governors (most of them appointed by the emperor anyway), had senators murdered, disgraced or exiled, etc. One of the basic notions of the Roman republic was that all the major positions had two persons (two consuls) so that none could seize all the power. And yes some emperors held fake elections where they always won the position of consul - how amazing. Sometimes they even choose another partner "to help them in their arduous task of ruling the empire" - but everybody knew which one was the true power. Add to that the fact that the Roman emperors ruled for live and choose their heirs with only the stamp approval of the senate. I have read about a joking senator who told Octavian to cast his vote first so that everybody could know how they were supposed to vote. I also have read about a comment of Tacitus that tells more or less the following: "(Augustus) deceived the army by giving them gifts, the ordinary people by giving them cheap food, and everybody by giving them peace, after which, little by little, he increased his powers, stripping the powers of the senate, of the magistrates and of the laws. So changed the State, and the old roman people, which was free ceased to exist."

Flamarande (talk) 12:08, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I just have to say that I hate the traditional Kingdom/Republic/Empire view. Rome was an Empire long before it got an 'Emperor.' In fact a great deal of land was taken by the Republic. If it were up to me I would break it up into the ‘Reign of Kings’, Reign of Aristocrats, and ‘Reign of the Emperors’ and even that is oversimplifying it.

Jp1701a (talk) 08:00, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

You are free to hate the traditional view, but as long at it remains the traditional/common/official/scholarly view Wikipedia will keep it. Flamarande (talk) 08:18, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it is the 'scholarly' view anymore it seems to be more of the 'school textbook' view. I have read many books on the subject of the Roman Empire by peer reviewed 'scholarly' individuals, and even they refer to Rome in pre-Augustian times as an empire. I have also had professors in college refer to it as the empire. The way I think it should be view is that Rome established a Republic that Republic established an Empire and the weight of the Empire crused the Republic and made way for the Emperors.

Jp1701a (talk) 04:41, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh brother. Look, the Roman Republic certainly had aquired an empire (a collection of subjected territories, city-states, peoples, and tribes) through military might and conquest before Ceasar and Octavian. Kingdom, repulic and empire, these titles usually have less to do with the territorial organization of the state and way more to do with the system of goverment. The goverment still had a republican form. Because of that historians usually divide Roman history into kingdom, republic, empire. As for the weight of the Empire crushed the Republic and made way for the Emperors is IMHO a easy catch-phrase which doesn't explain anything at all.

My 2 cents about it? The subversion of the "rule of the republic" into the "rule of the emperors" happenend because of certain flaws in the political system; a enormous lack of control of the provincial governors, a neglect of the military (pensions of the retired veterans). An incredible amount of corruption inside the goverment (we always like to speak about the splendor of Rome but never speak about its corruption, which was simply mindstaggering). Add to that a extreme stuborness of the senate with a huge lack of will (to the point of of blindness and stupidity) to address any of these issues. The Roman state and its political system needed reforms, and the senate didn't make them. The problems acumulated to a bursting point, until the whole situation simply got out of control of the republican system.

Through the decades theorists have offered several explenations (which normally reflect the world view of the decade and the personal conclusions and opinion of the scholar in question - it still beats to blindly repeat the writings of classical authors). Currently we like the "it had several causes which caused certain effects which led to a development" (this explenation is in my personal opinion quite credible but then I'm of this decade). Check it out; pick any subject and you will find this recent (appeared since the 1990's) explenation. Flamarande (talk) 09:48, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Holy Roman Empire a legitimate successor state?

FilipeS, please substantiate your claims about the Holy Roman Empire. To be frank the section comes off IMHO as biased and not consistent with modern scholarship. Some specific questions: "This is subjective. There was definitely a cultural connection with the ancient Roman Empire. And what makes a political connection "real"?)" - That's a pretty lame argument. By that argument I could say that every civilization on earth that has ever existed is the Roman Empire since you can find connections between every civilization. The simple fact is that the Holy Roman Empire was simply a renaming of the Frankish Empire whose culture and government did not grow out of the the Roman state. Granted as it grew and adopted the Roman Christianity it incorporated many aspects of Roman culture (something that can be said about any and all states that grew up in Europe, West Asia, and North Africa), it still had different origins from Rome. The fact that they "claimed" to be descended from the Romans more than others around the Med does not by itself support this distorted view history. More importantly, though, since modern scholars do not support this view of history it should not be stated or even implied.

I am baffled as to how anyone can claim "simple facts" about a fluid and subjective thing like culture. And, yes, the Holy Roman Empire was very much a cultural, as well as political, notion -- like any state, really. Armenians still regard Armenia as the same state that existed in the 4th century, although in reality there were several periods when Armenia lost its independence since then, being conquered by some of its neighbours. Greeks still regard themselves as Greeks, even though ancient Greece was conquered by Alexander the Great over 2000 years ago, and its culture dissolved in Byzantine times. Poland... Iran (Persia)... China... the examples are endless. You cannot deny the cultural component of statehood.

I am the first to agree that Charlemagne's kingdom began as a barbarian, medieval state with little in common with the ancient Roman Empire. But those were just its beginnings. What it set out to be -- and in several ways suceeded in becoming -- is as relevant and real as where it came from.

I'm afraid you logic is lost on me. Many modern Greeks argue that they are the same state as Ancient Greece but I doubt many respectable historians would agree with this interpretation of history. The same thing can easily be said of China and Persia (I am less familiar with Poland). None of your examples in my mind support your argument. The fact that one state "sees" itself as a continuation of another state is not of direct historical relevance. Even if you wanted to make the argument that the HRE changed itself to be identical to the classical Roman Empire or that modern Greece has transformed itself to be identical to Ancient Greece that does not support your thesis. This is rather like a presidential candidate trying to copy George Washington and claiming that he is George Washington. Even if he succeeds in copying the man exactly he is still not the same man.

Mcorazao (talk) 04:35, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid your lack of understanding is lost on me. All I see in that reply is your opinion. Got anything else? FilipeS (talk) 10:08, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

"I don't think the term "Holy Roman Empire" was used yet in Otto's time." - I'm not 100% sure about the timeline but what does that have to do with the edit you undid? The edit I made was to say that the Germans did not create a new empire but just renamed and restructured the existing German empire.

Mcorazao (talk) 19:36, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Your edit said Otto had "refounded the empire under the title Holy Roman Empire". I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think that term was ever used in Otto's time. There was no title change while he was alive; he and his contemporaries used the same terms the Carolingians had used (quite deliberately, of course).

FilipeS (talk) 20:06, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Distortion. My edit was to say that the Empire was refounded and reorganized rather than a new Empire having been created. I did not introduce the mention of Otto as being the ruler at this point in history.

Mcorazao (talk) 04:35, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

You didn't have to, the mention of Otto was already in the article. FilipeS (talk) 10:08, 7 January 2008 (UTC):

I agree that the Holy Roman Empire had about as much to do with the Romans as did the Chinese. Sun Tsu and his Art of War was written during the Hellenic Golden age. Atleast they had some continuity of culture extending from the Hellenic world. The ROmans were a Hellenised people, the culture is defined Helleno-Romaic, the German states and Frankish kingdom were partly Hellenised, hardly Christian Orthodox and may have been given recognition by Constantinople as a Kingdom, not as Continuator nor replacement nor anything other. A japanese historian his name unfortunately escapes me wrote that if Western Europe could press into the Hellenic World, then Japan had as much right to do so from the east. I like to think neither had the right nor the herritage to replace the administration of the Hellenistic world without adversly changing the existing Helleno-ROman culture.

Ephestion (talk) 02:23, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. My point is that although all of these things are subjective we cannot use that as an excuse to say any supposition is equally legitimate. The Eastern Roman Empire was the original Roman state (a part of it anyway) and was the only part of the state that survived the fall of Rome (save some small local enclaves that survived for a while before essentially being swamped by other states). I think that is an important aspect of history to understand as it explains a lot of things about the Middle Ages which are otherwise difficult to grasp.

Mcorazao (talk) 04:35, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

BTW, for all the reasons I have just mentioned, is it not appropriate to remove the section on the HRE altogether and just keep this as a mention in the Legacy section (it is already discussed there anyway)? In principle if you are going to discuss the HRE as a claimant to Roman statehood there should also be sections on the Ottoman Empire, the Russian Empire, and all the Goth kingdoms (frankly you could even toss in the Arab caliphates who, although they never claimed to be part of the Roman state, in fact did incorporate as much if not more of Roman culture than the HRE). Point is devoting a section to the HRE seems to be pulling off topic.

Mcorazao (talk) 05:37, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Those states never called themselves "Roman". FilipeS (talk) 10:08, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't see any "Holy Roman" legitimacy. If anything a Roman would shudder at the idea of any Frank or German "monarchial" "barbarian" faction claiming to to be the legitimate successor to the Roman state, which fought against these two peoples during its West's collapse.

Are we going to now go and say that the Turks of "Rum" were legitmate successors aswell? even though they literally wiped the last remnant of Roman civilization off the map?

The only medieval state that can claim to ascend from the Roman Empire is the Eastern (Byzantine) Roman Empire, ending in 1453 or arguably 1461, depending on Trebizonds claim - which seems legitmate.

Tataryn77 (talk) 06:43, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Would it be accurate to show 4 "surviving Roman states", or "post-fall-of-the-west" states (Byzantine, Soissans, Dalmatia, and Altava? Those domains were still actual Roman states, not under Germanic occupation. I also wonder about some of the Romano-British kingdoms. They had been abandoned by the Roman government, but I believe some of them still considered themselves Roman citizens who had to fend for themselves without the Emperor's protection.

We should also have a special section on Federates. Because technically the Franks were Federates of the Empire, even in Clovis' time. Thus, in a sort-of way, they restored Gaul to the Empire and administered it for them. Now we all know that Clovis was fully independent of the Empire, but both the Empire AND Clovis recognized him as a Federate of the Empire...

Other "Federate States" would include the Visigoths (until 475), the Ostrogoths, Burgundians, Suevi, etc.

We should include HRE as one of the successor states. Not implying a direct continuity, but instead as a replacement state, just like the Vandals, the Suevi, the Burgundians, Serbs, Bulgarians, Ottomans, Arabs, etc.). Otherwise we'd also have to include Rome as a hellenistic state, since it conquered them and considered itself one of them (just kidding, but seriously...).

Thomas Lessman (talk) 22:39, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I think formalizing the four "surviving" states is a good idea, however I think THEY are the only successor states. We should make a section on Federates, and another on states claiming to be successors (HRE, maybe Russia)

I don't believe much merit should be put into the Holy Roman Empire on this article. A couple paragraphs would do fine to mention its claimed continuity from the empire, thats all.

If the United States today claimed to be the "modern" Roman Empire, it would be about as legitimate as the Holy Roman Empire was in its day. We have to remember the Holy Roman Empire was not a stand alone claimant. The Eastern Roman Empire looked on and humoured itself with HRE's claim to legitimacy.

--Tataryn77 (talk) 22:54, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

NO, NO, and NO. What replaced the old unified Roman empire were the two Roman empires (Western Roman Empire and the Byzantine Empire). All the other candidates come only after the division and they could claim (and shout and pretend) what they wanted, they were (at most, very arguably, and most of them were little more than empty claims) successors of only one of the two Roman states. Let's analyze them. Domain of Soissons (with Sygarius), North Africa (whatever its official name was), Roman Britannia (with Ambrosius Aurelianus), and Dalmatia (under Julius Nepos). These territories are Roman exclaves or rump states. Basically they are remnants of the WRE where the Romans still ruled themselves. All of them were quite short-lived, and were relatively quickly conquered - in the case of North Africa I'm not really sure if the Byzantines conquered them or they simply dissolved. It can be argued that these remnants are what came after the WRE (successors of the WRE); but not what came after the whole Roman Empire because the BE was still alive and kicking.

All the other states: Burgundy, the empire of the Franks (which was proclaimed by the pope under Charlemagne in 800 AD, nearly 400 years after the end of the WRE!), and all the other "barbarian states" were created out of parts of the WRE. NONE of them could claim to contain the heartlands of the WRE and of the BE. ERGO none of the should be accepted as successor of the old Roman Empire. The Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation came only after the Empire of the Franks. It claimed the be a resurrection of the Roman Empire, but its core was German (or Germanic, or whatever you want call it - Germany was still much in the future) and not Roman. Some of them (but not all) claimed to be successors of the Roman Empire. These claims were simply empty, again because none of them had conquered the BE.

It could also be argued that the BE is "a half of the empire" and that its claim (of being the same entity as the the old Roman Empire) is also suspect. The claim of Russia (to be the "Third Rome") comes from Constantinople. To be honest IMHO Russia claim is much more weaker than the Ottoman Empire (which at least had Constantinople (the capital), Greece (the heartland), and the Greeks (the people).

Unless someone presents good arguments against it, the successors stay as they are: Western Roman Empire and the Byzantine Empire and NONE other. Flamarande (talk) 04:10, 7 January 2008 (UTC) PS: I'm willing to listen to alternatives but I warn you: use rational and logical arguments (no stuff of "I feel that" and "legal claim", etc).

The Roman Empire was never "replaced" with the Western and the Eastern Roman Empires, for that matter. Both terms are anachronistic. There was only one empire until the end. But if we accept the purely historiographical convention of calling the medieval stage of the Roman Empire "Byzantine" -- which the "Byzantines" themselves never did -- then I don't see why the Holy Roman Empire -- which did call itself Roman -- should be erased from history. FilipeS (talk) 10:08, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Despite the fact both terms are indeed anachronistic (not used during that time) doesn't mean that two full-fledged states didn't exist. You are focusing yourself solely upon the naming controversy (the term and name "Byzantine" invented much later) and avoiding all the other factual arguments (namely that the BE was still alive at the same time the HRE claimed to be the successor of the Roman Empire, that the core of the HRE was German and not Roman, that hundreds of years had passed between the existence of the two states, etc). I never called that we erase the HRE from the annals of history (you just had exaggerate the issue beyond all sense of proportion, hadn't you?). It should certainly be mentioned in the article (but not listed as a successor).

Just behold the madness of "legal theory" (as opposed by simple political facts). Towards the end of the Roman Empire there was a logical tendency simply to divide the huge empire into two. Several mighty emperors managed to re-united the two parts again and again only that circumstances re-divide the empire again, again, and again. In 395 AD with the death of Theodosius the empire was divided for the final time. We have two emperors, two capitals, two armies, two different coinages, two different foreign policies (who played the barbarian invaders against each other all the time). The two empires even fought against each other on occasion. The two even begin to have a religious conflict.

But simply because the Romans themselves liked to pretend that the empire was still "one and undivided" (ever heard about political lies? They also pretended for a very long time to be still living in a republic while at the same time they feared the wrath and madness of their emperor.) and wrote about "a single empire with two emperors" (and two capitals, armies, etc) we should (in your opinion) accept the HRE as an successor state? Well, could you please elaborate and explain your reasoning? Give me your arguments: Why should we list the HRE as an successor state of the Roman Empire? Flamarande (talk) 15:48, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

PS: You are right, the old roman Empire wasn't replaced by two states, it was rather divided into two successors states.

The Roman Empire was never "divided" into two fully-fleged separate states, either. That's the main reason why "Western Roman Empire" and "Eastern Roman Empire" are anachronistic terms. They are as anachronistic as "Byzantine Empire", except that they're more insidious, because they appear misleadingly natural. In reality, the Romans never saw Romania as two states. The power-sharing land divisions that emperors made were merely administrative divisions. Are California and Texas different and separate nation-states just because they have different governors?

The Roman Empire was one, from its foundation to 1453. Everything else are post hoc periodizations made by historians for their own convenience. FilipeS (talk) 16:01, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Please don't make me laugh. The governors of California and Texas have a complete Federal American government (the president of the USA, congress, senate, supreme court, etc) 'above' them and use the same coinage, laws (most of them). The WRE and the BE fought and played the barbarian tribes against each other. Flamarande (talk) 21:05, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Clearly we're getting bogged down in a lot of technicalities which are distracting us from the basics. First, to quickly respond to a previous comment, the Ottomans and the Russians did in fact refer to their empires "Roman" and considered themselves as legitimate if not more legitimate successors than the HRE. It is only a Western convention to somehow consider the HRE more legitimate. The confusing point in all of this is that during the classical age and the middle ages the concept of creation and dissolution of a state (indeed the concept of "state" itself) was much more murky so it is harder to define beginnings and ends of things and to draw boundaries around things. Nevertheless I would argue that there is no point in writing an article about what the Roman Empire is unless a clearer distinction is made although it needs to be made based on scholarly consensus. The consensus is that the "Byzantine" state was clearly a direct part of the Roman state and there is no distinction to be made. The so-called "fall of Rome" does not actually represent a clear point of dissolution of the Roman state but I think most (if not all) MODERN scholars agree that during the early Middle Ages the Western Roman Empire ceased to exist and that the political entities that developed in those former territories were new entities even though they had certain tenuous connections with the old Empire. Granted the "Byzantines" gave some of these entities a certain legitimacy in connecting them to the Empire at various times but most modern scholars do not consider this to in-and-of-itself imply any meaningful continuity with the Roman Empire itself. Certainly many individual aspects of Roman culture (notably the language) did survive in piece-meal form in the West, but that does not negate the fact that at the more macroscopic scale the state and its culture ceased to exist albeit gradually. Moreover many aspects of why the HRE resembled the Roman Empire in some ways had far more to do with "copying" than with any continuity with the old state. Trying to equate the WRE with the HRE is an anachronism which I don't believe most serious scholars today subscribe to. If anybody is aware of modern scholars that really do subscribe to this equation I'd certainly be interested to know.

--Mcorazao (talk) 18:58, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

What books are you reading? "It is only a Western convention to somehow consider the HRE more legitimate". The books that I have read (written by "western" academics) wholly reject the claim of the HRE. 476 AD is considered the end of the Western Roman Empire by the western academics (who in former times had big problems with the BE). There still is a wide trend to consider this date the end of the old Roman Empire but it seems to be very slowly fading away (and NO it doesn't seem to be replaced by 1453). Let give you a few of my books: Byzantium a history by John Haldon ISBN 0-7524-2343-6 In the name of Rome by Adrian Goldsworthy ISBN 0-75381-789-6 The Fall of the Roman Empire by Michael Grant ISBN 1-89880-048-0 I personally like 395 AD best (the last time a single emperor ruled over the whole empire) but this is OR. Flamarande (talk) 21:05, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

? How does what you have said contradict what I said? What you're saying supports what I said. Regarding the "Western" thing are you deliberately misinterpreting what I said or are you unaware of history? It is Western historians that have traditionally held the HRE to be a continuation of the Roman Empire. The Western historians you are referring to are modern historians which obviously was not what I was referring to in that context.

--70.112.217.132 (talk) 04:24, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I wish to clarify something. When I argue that the HRE can be regarded as a successor to the Roman Empire, I make a very clear distinction between "successor" and "continuation". The HRE was not the Roman Empire. That is obvious. However, it did attempt to emulate it, to revive it to some extent. We can debate how far the attempt was legitimate, or successful, but I don't think anyone can argue that an attempt was made.

Concerning other possible successors to the Empire, this may just be my ignorance, but I thought none of those you mentioned (the Franks, the Ottomans, the Russians, etc.) consistently described their state as "Roman" in the way that the HRE did. From what I understand, "Roman" to them was just one among many in a long list of titles which they occasionally made claim to. But they made little effort to become like the Romans, to restore the Empire, as the HRE did in its first centuries (later, of course, it gradually became an essentially Germanic nation). FilipeS (talk) 11:26, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

So we're getting down to terminology which may be at the core of this. Using your terminology what I was saying is that the article should not be devoting too much space to "successor" states and should not be implying that the "successors" were "continuations" which is what the article currently does with the HRE. But for what it is worth your terminology is probably the best way to use the terms.

As far as your distinction of "Roman" what you are saying is not untrue but not quite accurate either. First I'll point out that the Franks and the HRE were a continuous state (although, of course, the Frankish state split along the way). In any event, on the whole the people of the HRE did not really consider themselves "Romans" exactly. The people of Rome did, of course, and certain pockets of the former Roman provinces may have as well but the emperors of the HRE didn't consider themselves "Roman" per se but rather rulers of the Empire that included the great city of Rome (hence the fact that the full title became "The Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation"). In other words, the concept of a "Roman Empire" was a concept of prestige of being associated with that continuity of power not specifically an indication of ethnic or cultural identity. This is exactly the same way that the Ottoman sultans and the Russian czars (and others, really) thought of themselves. Granted the HRE made the most conspicuous attempt to associate themselves by the official title of their empire but still. In terms of who "copied" the Romans more my understanding is that the Russians made at least as much attempt to copy the Romans as the HRE did although they were copying different parts of the Roman Empire from different time periods and with different biases (hence the perception by each that the other got it wrong and therefore was less legitimate). The Ottomans copied the Eastern Romans a great deal as well although they had a clearer distinction between their culture and the "Roman" culture, both of which, though, they saw as being a part of their Empire.

Regardless, who "copied" the Romans more is not the point. The article should focus on the Roman Empire itself and leave major discussions of who copied them to other articles.

So can we remove the section on the HRE and just leave the discussion of them in the Legacy?

--Mcorazao (talk) 16:32, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, you are being patient with me but I must say that I am still not favorable to removing the HRE from the article. As you said, this is a matter of terminology, but sometimes words matter. They can have a strong symbolic value, and it seems to me that, during the Middle Ages especially, symbolism played a non negligible role in politics. In this case, we have the ideal of restoring the Roman Empire in some way. To me, this is one of the interesting leitmotifs that run through the whole Early Middle Ages: combined with the centrifugous force of the fragmentation of political power (which would eventually lead to feudalism), and with the tremendous social and ideological changes, there was nevertheless a countercurrent that resisted change, or rather wished to reverse it. The "dream" of reuniting Europe still had some power of seduction, at least with the people (I don't doubt that Pope Leo III and Charlemagne viewed this restoration less romantically). It was a time of ideals and contradictions. Later ages were more cynical.

Let me add that, currently, the article has only three short paragraphs about the HRE, which it nowhere describes as a "continuation", or even a "successor", to the Roman Empire. The word that is used is "revival", which to me seems quite appropriate... FilipeS (talk) 16:57, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I am not disputing the significance of the HRE's attempt to "revive" the ancient Empire but I'm only saying that this is a separate discussion from the ancient Empire itself (i.e. from the perspective that each article should stick to its topic and not confuse the reader by meandering too much). Regarding the wording I agree that the section does not directly say that the HRE was a "continuation" but even the term "revival" could be misconstrued by a reader who did not understand the history. This is why I tried to add wording to ensure that this was not misinterpreted. And the simple fact that it is in its own section following the section on the "Byzantines" strongly implies that if the Byzantine Empire was a continuation then so was the HRE. In my mind the HRE and other similar topics are best mentioned briefly in the Legacy section. That ensures that there is no misinterpretation and gives it its fair due. Bear in mind also that there were other states in Western Europe (Spain, France, England) which were never entirely part of the HRE and yet copied the ancient Empire and considered themselves to varying to degrees continuations of that Empire and made conspicuous attempts to revive it (for that matter even later Hilter attempted to copy the Romans to some degree considering himself in a vague way to be a continuation of that legacy).

--Mcorazao (talk) 17:42, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Hitler's Germany called itself the III Reich (Third Empire) because the Nazis saw themselves as successors to the Holy Roman Empire (the II Reich being the German Empire of the 19th century, which the Allies had dismantled after World War I). Or, at least, they used these images and metaphors as propaganda. They did have a historical precedent, and initially they were successful; Austria was easily reunited with Germany. Their invasion of Poland, and Eastern Europe in general, had the implicit pretext that that land had at one time belonged to the Empire (or at least been a client to it). Still, they never really called their state "Roman". Mussolini would have had a fit, LOL!

I will think more about what you've written. But when you say that Spain, France, and England "copied the ancient Empire", "considered themselves to varying to degrees continuations of that Empire", and "made conspicuous attempts to revive it" I'm not sure what you mean. Could you give a couple of examples? FilipeS (talk) 18:04, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, for example you can observe things like the following Iberia and the Gaulish region. For centuries they continued to use Latin as an official language or co-official language (Spain for example only began using Spanish for official decrees in the 13th century). After the original Gothic conquests formal Latin had been dying but as the Goths assimilated into the cultures of their conquests they would gradually try to make their kingdoms more "cultured" by reviving use of classical Latin among themselves and their subjects (i.e. not just learning the local Vulgar Latin dialect but actually trying to bring use of the formal language into their courts). Also as the Goths assimilated into the regional cultures the regalia of the monarchies often mimicked the ancient Roman or the Byzantine forms. Note also that after the conquests most of the citizens of the provinces (i.e. outside of the core of the HRE) stayed with the Roman Church seeing that as part of their identity. Throughout the Middle Ages a frequent theme was that Western Europeans saw becoming more connected to the Church was somehow becoming more "Roman" (in the sense that they equated "Romanness" with culture).

I don't specifically know that any of these other states actually referred to their countries as Roman (although it wouldn't surprise me if they did at some points in their history) but the point is that they were all constantly trying to connect themselves with "the good ol' days". The people of those former provinces (again, outside the core of the HRE) continued to see themselves as descendants of that heritage and were always trying to prove to themselves and others that there was a connection. If anything it may have been the very fact that Germany was the main part of Europe that had not been part of the ancient Empire that was the reason they made the biggest deal about their empire being "Roman" (in the same way that in Nazi Germany the people who barely made the cut to be classified as "Aryan" were often the most proud of it; sorry to use another Nazi analogy).

--Mcorazao (talk) 19:08, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

P.S. Regarding your Hitler comments, Hitler did mostly focus on his connection to the HRE and the German Empire but I've read that he did see some sort of connection to the Roman Empire as well presumably in the sense of the older Western perspective that the HRE was a continuation of the ancient one. --Mcorazao (talk) 19:15, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

That's all true, but a bit tenuous. I just can't brush aside the fact that Charlemagne's empire, and Otto I's empire, consistently called themselves "Roman". We can discuss how historically accurate and legitimate that was, but legitimacy in such matters is ultimately subjective anyway. They appear to have been de jure Roman states.

By "Roman" here, I mean no more than that they called themselves that. Their culture did not descent directly from that of ancient Rome, and they didn't even control the city of Rome itself (which Charlemagne donated to the Pope, thus creating the Papal States.) But then again The Byzantine Empire did not control Rome for most of its existence, either. And while Byzantium could correctly claim that it descended directly from the ancient Roman Empire, it became a very different entity in every way you can think of: geographically, culturally, ethnically, politically, linguistically, religiously... FilipeS (talk) 14:12, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure I see what you are getting at. The fact that the HRE referred to itself as Roman is a meaningless argument. By the same token I could argue that because there is a modern nation in Eastern Europe named "Romania", one of the names commonly used by the Romans to refer to themselves, then the Roman Empire exists today. The fact that one nation uses the same name as another does not make them the same. And I don't know on what basis you make the "de jure" argument. The fundamental basis for the "de jure" claim was the Donation of Constantine which was proven a fraud (even it wasn't claim of continuity would still be a gross stretch).

As far as the changes in the Eastern Roman state, to be honest I've always found those kinds of arguments gratuitous. Were there huge changes between the fall of Rome and the fall of Constantinople? Of course. It was a thousand years. Were there huge changes between the founding of Rome and the fall of Rome? Of course. Even if Rome had never fallen there might have been equally huge changes in the years afterward. Among other things long before Rome ever fell Greek was the Empire's majority language and the aristocracy had long debated switching the official language to Greek. It might have happened anyway. And regardless, how different the Empire appeared at different points in its history has nothing to do with whether it was the same state.

I see no merit in the name argument at all. In any event, I don't believe modern scholars support the HRE's supposed continuity so I'm not sure what we're arguing about.

--Mcorazao (talk) 04:36, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

What seems to be the main problem is that you all haven't found a good forum for discussion. :) Essentially the basis of the problem is in recognising the macro history between 285-600AD. The Germanics and Goths invaded the Western part of the empire, in the east a reasonably large group called the Ostrogoths had become almost entirely Hellenised sharing in the Eastern Roman traditions. The Eastern EMpire was powerless due to Persian wars between 285AD-~450AD to do anything about the Western Problem. One solution was that using the OstroGoths from along the Danube and Black Sea, the Eastern Romans could push back the Western Germanic Tribes and many others that had rushed inward towards the prizes and spoils of the decaying western frontier. By 700AD the Romans almost entirely restored what damage was done but it was short lived before a new wave of Germanic assaults began towards 1010AD ie shortly prior and during the crusades. Now by this time the Visigoths and Ostrogoths had reunited and to some degree had become Hellenised. In this view the cultural change of the Germanics was occuring rapidly, yet they were simply never accepted as Romans. This explains the tolerance of the Eastern Roman EMpire in recognising many Western Kingdoms only to attempt at crushing them within a few centuries of doing so. It kept the aggressors content and allowed time for the Romans to handle them later. We should not see any formal recognition given to Frankish Kingdoms as Evidence but rather as a means to keep them at bay. So I would say the HRE was simply one that had become Hellenised but was never acknowledged as a successor by bloodlines, ancestory to alexander or his generals, a general of the Romans. These were the common methods of claiming the throne and none applied to both Eastern and Western states that claimed lineage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ephestion (talk • contribs) 16:28, 22 January 2008

"The Holy Roman Empire was neither holy nor Roman nor an Empire"... :D srsly, i agree that its a weak connexion at best, shouldnt be in there. ΤΕΡΡΑΣΙΔΙΩΣ(^Ταλκ) 10:42, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Dead Horse: What is the topic?

I hate to beat a dead horse since this has been discussed in various ways many times but ...

I believe the article still suffers from a lack of a clear definition of what it is about. The dates given in the info box go from 27 AD - 1453 AD implying the age of Augustus to the Fall of Constantinople to the Turks. The article itself, though, MOSTLY covers the state until the Fall of Rome, implying an end date in the 5th century. As mentioned in the discussion above, though it does discuss and give equal treatment to the "Byzantine" Empire and the HRE in the later sections which would imply an end date in the 19th century.

As we have discussed there is a lot of debate in scholarly circles about the "best" historiography for things but, regardless, the article needs to pick a historiography and stick to it. IMHO, since common historiography (and the way most of the related articles in Wikipedia are written) uses "Roman Empire" to designate the history of the empire prior to the demise of the Western Empire this seems the best way to focus this article. This is not to say that the article should imply that the state "ended" in the 5th or 6th centuries but there needs to be a clear historiographical convention applied. Neither does it imply that what happened after the 5th century should not be mentioned but it should be discussed in context.

--Mcorazao (talk) 19:33, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I suggest you provide us a list with all your books (with the ISBN and page number) and the given dates (of the beginning and the end - several different dates for these events in the same book if that is the case). After your list I will provide mine, and if anyone more is willing they will provide theirs (you go first because I'm lazy :). IF any dates appear more often we can accept them as the commonly accepted ones and use them in this article. Flamarande (talk) 23:36, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Flamarande, huh? You are not addressing what I said. A pet peeve of mine in Wikipedia circles is changing the subject to deflect from the topic at hand. What the "correct" end date is is not the basic question. The point is that the article needs to be consistent (with itself and with the historiography applied in other articles). --Mcorazao (talk) 03:44, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

No it doesn't. It only must be consistent with common scholarship, nothing else. IF we provide proper sources and prove that the overwhelming majority of the scholars that write books about this subject ("Roman Empire") end it around the 5th century we can reform and improve this article accordingly. No evidences and sources = no reforms. Flamarande (talk) 03:59, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

New Language

Please add Farsi Artcle to the Language List fa:امپراتوری روم —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.135.2.51 (talk) 23:43, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Mistakes

The first line of this articles says that the 'Roman Empire is the phase of the roman civilization characterised by an autocratic form of government'. The Roman kingdom was also characterised by an autocratic government and therefore this statement is misleading. perhaps it could be re-worded.

Let's not overstate the problem. It is the phase of Roman civilization characterized by the combined features of "an autocratic form of government" and "large territorial holdings" -- exactly as the article states. The second part disqualifies the earlier kingdom. How would you restate the sentence to make that clearer? Jmacwiki (talk) 05:00, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Within the opening description the article states that: 'From the time of Augustus to the Fall of the Western Empire, Rome's dominion covered all of the following: England and Wales; most of Europe (west of the Rhine and south of the Alps); coastal northern Africa, together with the adjacent province of Egypt; the Balkans, the Black Sea, and Asia Minor; and also much of the Levant'. I am unsure about other territories but no part of britain was encorpoated into the empire until 43AD. This statement is misleading because it suggests these territories were part of the empire over the whole period between Augustus' rule and the fall of the western empire. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.142.106.147 (talk) 19:59, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

You are right. IMHO there is a slow tendency in most articles to "accumulate" too much facts and informations (and beautiful sentences which repeat the same information several times = garbage). This is but another minor blunder that shows again that this article needs and deserves a full-scale reform. Flamarande (talk) 01:09, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

This may have a far simpler solution, i.e., to reword that sentence slightly so that it is clear that those territories were part of the empire only during some of its existence.

Subheadings about Emperors

I'm leery of making massive edits, but for anyone with more guts, may I suggest that we don't need separate sections on each of the major emperors? Having subheadings covering the periods of Imperial history (Juilo-Claudian, Flavian, Good Emperors, Crisis of the Third Century, etc.) seems like plenty of detail to me. A. Parrot (talk) 18:40, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

See Also

Under See Also section...: Why doesn't "Maps of the Roman Empire" interlink? It's also in the english wikipedia. 71.141.237.108 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 23:07, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

1963 years

wow, is it possible to say that the romans reigned for 1963 years?

Is this article really too long?

At the top of the Roman_Empire article.. it says that the article may be too long and should be shortened to enhance readability. To me.. the Roman Empire is not a brief topic. It's history spans a very large number of years and the influence of the empire on Western culture remains today. Shouldn't there be a different tag? Perhaps that the article should be cleaned up or reorganized? Is shortening it really the goal for such a large topic? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.72.202.18 (talk) 19:13, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I strongly concur that the Roman Empire deserves a great deal of coverage. The appropriate WP solution to a single huge article, however, is to provide links to longer articles on specialized parts. This article already does so in some sections ("Flavian dynasty", "Decline and fall", etc.), but in many other sections it does not ("Final partition", "Language", "Legacy", etc.). Also, even some of the subsections are very long. This article could serve as a prose Table of Contents of sorts, with a few sentences or at most a few paragraphs on each subsection, the remainder linked to a full article on the subtopic. But that is not what we have now. Jmacwiki (talk) 04:47, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree, things as language can be redirected with a brief summary. Politics however, should be much more detailed than other sections. Mallerd (talk) 18:03, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

27BC-1453AD

WHAT, IF ANYTHING, IS A BYZANTINE?

http://www.romanity.org/htm/fox.01.en.what_if_anything_is_a_byzantine.01.htm

Whoever is changing the fall of the Roman empire to 1453 AD please keep it up. No need for the outdated date of 476AD when the eastern side survived for another 1000 years and continued to call themselves ROMAN! Byzantines= Romans. "The people who lived in the "Byzantine Empire" never knew nor used the word "Byzantine." They know themselves to be Romans, nothing more and absolutely nothing less. By transferring the Imperial capital from Rome on the Tiber to the New Rome on Bosphorus, dubbed Constantinople, the Emperor Constantine I had transferred the actual identity of Rome to the new location. Long before Constantine I, the idea of "Rome" had become dissociated from the Eternal City on the Tiber. For a Roman meant a Roman citizen, whereever he lived."

How do I edit the true date of the fall of the Roman Empire? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Titus001 (talk • contribs) 17:12, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, this is getting somewhat heated. Different issues of social study is being discussed here. Cultural and/or national lifespan, and governmental lifespan. The average government lifespan is only about 3 centuries, meaning a single state or dynastic monarchy. The Roman Empire only lasted about 300 years, up until Constantine created a new government. The Republic only lasted about 3 centuries as well, and Augustus marked the beginning of a new government, the Imperium Romanus. Before the republic, about 300 years of Estruscan kingships. I don't have a citation yet, but this was well-documented somewhere in socialology, the limit of successive generations willing to serve a single state. So there is no single state that has endured that long, only its nationality or culture. In which case, the Roman nation existed for at least 2000 years, while many governments have come and gone. Perhaps not a hard and fast rule, but a general historical pattern. Jcchat66 (talk) 18:42, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't see it. If the nation (i.e., people & culture) lasted for over 1000 years -- until 1204, at least -- and during ALL of that time it was imperial, why not say it was a single state? By the reasoning above, we apparently should say that Britain as an empire (or even as the English kingdom) ended, and a successor arose, whenever a new dynasty took over. How is that helpful to understanding anything?

Now consider, not the WRE or the "RE", but the ERE from (say) 400-1204. That's far longer than a mere 3 centuries! What terminations and refoundings do we identify in there, every 300 years or so? I don't see any. It seems to me that it's much more appropriate to regard the ERE as a single state throughout that time.

I suggest that we consider [and that the article adopt the POV] that the RE is "a single state" EXCEPT when a new administration (emperor, in this case) disrupts the political structure, cultural or legal traditions, economic arrangements, etc. We should be especially careful about identifying "breaks" that, in fact, the citizens of the time regarded as legitimate continuations. The Roman Empire evolved, but with no outright breaks, at least from 27 BCE to 330, and at least again from 330 to 1204. (In fact, I would join those two periods. But I recognize that there was at least a notable break of sorts in 330.) Losing and gaining territories along the way was routine over that long span! It does not represent the termination, refounding, or anything else about that state. Jmacwiki (talk) 04:37, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

If the Roman Empire was around as the Byzantine Empire after 476 AD, then why was Charlmagne tried to get the Roman Empire back in 800 AD?

Edwardadrian 04:38, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Roman empire only lasted 400 years?

27BC-1453AD

http://www.romanity.org/htm/fox.01.en.what_if_anything_is_a_byzantine.01.htm

Funny that some people here still believe in the myth that the roman empire only lasted 400 years or fell in 476AD. The Eastern Roman empire lasted another 1,000 years but they are not roman when they the people called themselves roman? They continued the roman past and HAD the same borders but we modern people have to invent a new word to describe an empire that they never knew nor used the words byzantine. They called themselves roman and so shall we for the correct history of this empire from 27bc-- 1453AD. I urge the people to change the date from 476AD to the correct date of 1453AD. Enough of the propaganda that the empire fell in 476AD when the eastern roman empire survived for another 1,000 years. I suggest you read the link I gave about the "Byzantines". It is also a joke that the "Holy Roman empire" is even mentioned in this wiki page. They should be removed.

http://www.romanity.org/htm/fox.01.en.what_if_anything_is_a_byzantine.01.htm

We are talking about the lifespan of a government, which is strictly the meaning of empire, from imperium, or power, legal authority, etc. Empire must not be confused with nationality, people, or culture, which of course can last for many centuries. Constantine the Great completely changed the government, and every conceivable legal connection to the Augustan empire, and certainly every pretext to a republic. Augustus completely changed the government from a republic to a more autocratic system, thus ending the lifespan of the Roman Republic. Before that, it was a kingdom. As I just stated above, the Roman culture is perhaps over 2000 years old, but many, many governments have come and gone. Jcchat66 (talk) 15:19, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Please, sign your posts (four tildes after post). Of course what you're saying is correct and it's made abundantly clear in the article Byzantine Empire, right in the intro no less, so take it easy. ;) 3rdAlcove (talk) 16:54, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

It is not right to claim that the end of the Roman Empire was in 1453. There are many reasons mainly historical and a whole encyclopedic article has not to be arranged according to how the citizens of the empire used to call themselves. It is known that during many periods of greek history, Greeks used to call themselves "Ρωμαίοι" (Roméi—Romans) but for sure we cannot tag them as Byzantines or Romans. In detail:

• Byzantine Empire is called the medieval successor of the ancient Roman Empire.
• The changes that occured through the ages do not allow us to claim that the Byzantine Empire is exactly the same: other form of government, other mentality, other poeples with whom the Byzantines got in touch, other language. The Western Roman Empire ended in 476 and then other part started gradually to change when already in the 8th century was a much different state.
• Why does the "Byzantine Empire" article exist? Wouldn't be better to make 200kb article which will include the whole series?
• The present article does not refer but little information about the 395-476 period. The infobox will say that the empire ended in 1453 but then the reader will have to study another article with another name. Dimboukas (talk) 19:27, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

All states change gradually over time. So what? It's not only misleading and pervertedly westerno-centric to say it ended in 4 whatever, it is factually inaccurate. The people who insist on such nonsense seem to know this, which makes it strange, but just don't understand the difference between convenient and/or random terminology and historical fact. And I'd say to them even Edward Gibbon, writing in an era where such nonsense had been made current by Italians and Germans, wrote his Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire up to 1453. If nothing else that should be enough for you! If you're gonna insist on this, then I'd suggest merging the article with Western Roman Empire and start a new article on the actual Roman Empire for the course of its entire history, rather than just the parts of it cherry-picked for its relevance to a few western countries. It is called Byzantine Empire and Roman Empire. This is not a problem is the minds of historians; it is only a problem because we have daft infobox that require mutual exclusivity when none exists. This is just about all that ever needs said on this. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 21:42, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, infoboxes are less than necessary when the article explains everything. Byzantine Empire's intro makes everything clear; no need to assume that the readers are incompetent (that goes to the whole "have to study..." point). 3rdAlcove (talk) 22:56, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

By the arguments above from Deacon, the Roman Empire will never end at all, and currently exists! Let me keep it simple ... only the Greco-Roman culture could conceive of such an ethnocentric notion, that states, law, religion, economics, and culture were all one and a part of the state! By this logic, which Deacon promotes, the Empire remains perpetual, since many nations still use civil law (Roman law) and carry on Roman culture, such as the idea of pater familias in most Latin American and Slavic countries. The "westerno-centric" point of view, however, that Deacon mentions, has long since established that religion, law, culture, and ecnomics are seperate components of society, rejecting any sort of monolithic control over all of them. The "westerno-centric" point of view, in essence, is the same as that of all those people the Romans and Greeks called "barbarians" for their egalitarian qualities and rejection of the Roman caste system that was, quite frankly, the very opposite of egalitarian.

So, by the Romano-centric viewpoint, the Roman Empire still exists. By the "barbarian" point of view, it existed for only 300 or 400 years. You will see this bais in the ancient historians, whil more modern historians are willing to see it from a new perspective ... now that "barbarians," for once, are the victors writing history. Jcchat66 (talk) 16:32, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

You seem to be confused. The Roman Empire was a state ruled by emperors from Augustus to 1453 ... I didn't mention any cultural, economic or religious stuff! Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:36, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Right, you did not, I did, because these are important aspects of determining the history of a state. This is were history and political science diverges. The state that was the Roman Empire began with Augustus and ended when Constantine created a new state. There is no perpetual state, most countries go through several states in very short periods of time. By 400 CE, several aspects had already changed significantly along with the state. Constantine marked the beginning of a new state, and a new national identity, a Christian Empire with very different institutions. The temples of the old gods wielded enormous political power, the priests of Jupiter and other gods have considerable wealth in influence. None of this existed by 400 CE, when new Christian institutions were firmly entrenched. The Romans of the early res publica would not recognize the imperium centuries later, and the Romans of the imperium would not recognize the Romans of Constantinople. If the Greeks called themselves Romans, so what? Americans still call their language English ... does that make them English still?

Otherwise, your arguments can be used to argue that the Roman Empire still exists today, in the civil law that barrows heavily from the Roman imperial code, complete with the Roman class system still evident throughout Europe and Latin America, and whose political institutions still persist in the form of dictatorships everywhere. At the very least, you may argue then that the Russian Empire was a legitimate successor state of Constantinople (which they did in fact claim to be) and use 1917 as the last year of any and all Roman imperial states. Or, simply claim the Vatican is a seccessor state, since the pontifex evolved from an imperial title, and which so many people still regard as their divine pater familias throughout the world.

So which is it???? Jcchat66 (talk) 15:45, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

This is one of the problems with pages like this. Everyone fancies themselves as a historian who can reinterpret history. Sorry, get your PhD, get published and your dream will be fulfilled, but that's not what wiki is for! I thank goodness I'm going on wiki break now actually ... having to read and respond to stuff like this has been doing my head in! No offence btw. All the best, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:30, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Ah, spoken like a true Roman, my friend! But the world has moved on. Knowledge is no longer controlled by the aristocratic elite, that is the whole point of wikipedia, the first truly egalitarian knowledgebase in all of history, where the peasants and losers of wars can finally put their two cents in. No longer will history be written by the victors. A PhD is nothing more than another title of nobility, a title created in the most aristocratic society of all ... Germany, saviors of the ancient Roman social caste system. Time to think outside the myopic box of that ancient system of "might is right." Free will, my friend, means accepting that even the stupidest people in the world have a voice. Sorry to disappoint you by not having a PhD. Didn't think I needed one here! Jcchat66 (talk) 22:38, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Western Roman Empire

I have noticed that the user Kurt Leyman often changes the end of the Empire from 476 to 1453 and the Fall of Constantinople by the Turks. OK, many say that there was never an official end of the Roman Empire until 1453 but you can not say that the Roman Empire unaltered existed up to the 15th Century. It is not only the "official end" (after all such term cannot exist about this empire) but a whole series of events in a point that the Byzantine Empire cannot be the same with the Roman Empire: other language, other geographical centre, other people with whom the Byzantines got in touch and many other differnces. I can also add that after Romulus Augustus never again a roman ruled the empire and after that the next "Roman Empire" was the "Holy Roman Empire" ruled by German kings. And something more, in this article there is nothing but very little explanation about the Roman Empire after 476 AD so you cannot date the end and not to explain until then. The article is not constructed for an end after 476. So there is no reason for anyone to change the date. Dimboukas (talk) 17:46, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

The claim that "the Byzantine Empire cannot be the same with the Roman Empire" is anachronistic POV. FilipeS (talk) 17:49, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree with your view above, Dimboukas. Specifically, I think the evolved culture, different geographical center, and other differences between the Romans/Byzantines is one of the most unique parts of their culture. Not many other cultural systems have lasted that long period (2253 years, approximate). Let alone under a continuous (though evolving) goverment for that entire period. It was a cultural system that started in Rome, Italy in 753 BC as a little kingdom, rose to dominate their world, then slowly fell apart until they lost their last capital, in Thrace, in 1453 AD. Thomas Lessman (talk) 18:00, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I will repeat myself and request that all of you provide your sources (title of the books with the respective page numbers, and the ISBN's) so that this article can finally follow common scholarship in this matter. Flamarande (talk) 15:46, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Again, I think we are addressing the wrong issues. It is Wikipedia policy that we should not be arguing about "right" and "wrong". The only issue is whether Wikipedia is consistent with itself and modern scholarship. As Dimboukas points out the article currently mostly covers the history of the Roman state from Augustus to the 5th century. It makes no sense to say at the top of the article that it covers the history up to the 15th century when clearly it doesn't. This is non-sensical.

Clearly the article could be rewritten to cover that entire period up to the 15th century but then most of the detail that it currently contains would have to be removed which makes no sense. Another option is to make this an overview article for the entire history from the Augustus to the fall of Constantinople and then create sub-articles titled with time periods. In my mind I think sticking with the convention of using "Roman Empire" to refer to the pre-fall-of-the-West period is probably the simplest and least confusing approach.

--Mcorazao (talk) 04:14, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

All states change gradually over time. So what? It's not only misleading and pervertedly westerno-centric to say it ended in 4 whatever, it is factually inaccurate. The people who insist on such nonsense seem to know this, which makes it strange, but just don't understand the difference between convenient and/or random terminology and historical fact. And I'd say to them even Edward Gibbon, writing in an era where such nonsense had been made current by Italians and Germans, wrote his history up to 1453. If nothing else that should be enough for them! If you're gonna insist on this, then I'd suggest merging the article with Western Roman Empire and start a new article on the actual Roman Empire for the course of its entire history, rather than just the parts of it cherry-picked for its relevance to a few western countries. The content of the article is indeed imbalanced as was said, so entered the appropriate tags. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 00:31, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Ya feel free to go ahead and get started on that. (kidding) I don't understand what there is to even debate here. This article reflects the consensus of virtually all other English scholarly presentations of Rome. That is to say, sometime between Constantine and Justinian, the political, cultural and linguistic changes in the Empire, along with the geographical changes and the huge loss of lands in Latin speaking areas controlled by Rome for hundreds of years, change the study of that evolved, but yes, descendant, political system, into what is now almost universally termed the Byzantine Empire. This is recognized by virtually all of academia and is reflected in everything from what you might expect to read about in a history book (For the most part you wouldn't pick up a book simply labeled "History of the Roman Empire" and expect to find detailed information about the Komnenos; of course you're going to be reading about Tiberius and Caligula instead) and what you find in Universities. (Very few classes focused simply on the "Roman Empire" are going to have deep study of the Byzantines, you would take a class on the Byzantines to get that information.)

This is also reflected in other prominent encyclopedias, such as Britannica, that most-used example across Wiki-talk, which also breaks the history of Rome into a "Republic and Empire" article and a "Byzantine Empire" article. Why should all of the information in this article be pushed over into a "Western Roman Empire" article when the reach and scope of the term "Roman Empire" is already well established in English scholarly presentations as referring to the Empire from Augustus until the Byzantine period? Again, from Britannica's parallel article on this topic, "It centred on the city of Rome from the founding of the republic (509 BC) through the establishment of the empire (27 BC) to the final eclipse of the empire in the west (5th century AD)... Rome was sacked in 410 by the Visigoths, and the western empire fell to German invaders in 476; the east continued as the Byzantine Empire until 1453." The scope of the article there is the same as it is here, and the dates in the infobox should reflect that as well. Brando130 (talk) 01:51, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

The direction some people wanna take this article is preposterous, but such are popular articles on wikipedia, where the rule of the of the mob gets to work. Your last example, Brando, tells you what's involved. It is true that after a certain period (no one particular point!) "Byzantine Empire" tends to be used more than "Roman Empire" and that classicists and medievalists/Byzantinists use different terms by convenience, this doesn't justify presenting presenting fiction as fact on an infobox. The Roman Empire continued as the Roman Empire (so the above source is flawed) but in modern historiographical culture different names get used. It is only people much further down the intellectual food chain who actually believe this to mean the Roman Empire ended because a Germanic ruler in Italy changed his title. And btw, why does it make sense to revert someone and then tell them not "to edit war"? I reckon that's almost as preposterous as the position being advocated above. ;) Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 02:46, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Not sure how else to explain it, I guess I'll just try and summarize again and then we can let the consensus of the editors here decide. Using a date in the fifth century to indicate the end of the period that is encompassed by the general English usage of "Roman Empire" is absolutely valid, because English scholarship studies the late Eastern Empire under the name Byzantine Empire. It does not mean that the people who began and still use the term Byzantine Empire believe that the 'Roman Empire' simplisticily ended, as you seem to imply they believe. Your insistence that the scope of the use of "Roman Empire" must extend to the end of the Byzantine period is not supported by the consensus of scholarship. You can call Britannica flawed in this sense, but any interested party, if they really wanted, could find a hundred examples of scholarly discussions of the "Roman Empire" being limited from Augustus to the beginning of the Byzantine period. In this context, Britannica is suggesting that the Roman Empire "continued as [what is called] the Byzantine empire", meaning that the authors of Britannica aren't unaware that the Byzantines continued to call themselves Romans, but rather that the scope of the term "Roman Empire," in that article, in this article, and in general English usage, usually does not include the later centuries of the Eastern, 'Byzantine' Empire. Brando130 (talk) 03:16, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

You are not taking into account the fact that these are merely terms of scholarly convenience, and does not translate into any serious scholar actually believing the Roman Empire came to an end because a Germanic ruler in northern Italy changed his title and deposed one titular emperor while the other emperor was ruling away. Despite using different terms (FOR WHICH 476 IS NOT A CUT OFF POINT!!!), we don't believe the signified is a different political unit because of these events. The linguistic thrust of your argument, with which I could have some sympathy, does not mean fiction should be presented as fact and, besides, most people (as this page proves) will not understand the limits of its implications and will not understand the difference between historical facts and historiographic culture. Historians do not believe that the Roman state ended in the 5th century, they believe that the separate western part of it ended politically (any other position would be absurd anyway). You'll find plenty of Byzantinist scholars who use the term in this way when writing about the fall of Constantinople, and it is historical consensus (such as it exists) that the "Byzantine" Empire was the Roman Empire. You wanna introduce those arguments above, well maybe you could advocate something that's actually reasonable? Such as not misusing a daft template and also stating in the the article that the article's coverage is chronologically limited purely by convenience. But that's not what I'm seeing. What I'm seeing is an attempt to present fiction as fact. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 03:41, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

You suggest "merging the article with Western Roman Empire and start a new article on the actual Roman Empire for the course of its entire history, rather than just the parts of it cherry-picked for its relevance to a few western countries." - however, lets explore the scope of the use of the term "Roman Empire" in English. You didn't like how Britannica breaks it down, so lets look elsewhere:

"Roman Empire"

American Heritage Dictionary : An empire that succeeded the Roman Republic during the time of Augustus, who ruled from 27 B.C. to A.D. 14. At its greatest extent it encompassed territories stretching from Britain and Germany to North Africa and the Persian Gulf. After 395 it was split into the Byzantine Empire and the Western Roman Empire, which rapidly sank into anarchy under the onslaught of barbarian invaders from the north and east. The last emperor of the West, Romulus Augustulus (born c. 461), was deposed by Goths in 476, the traditional date for the end of the empire.

WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University: an empire established by Augustus in 27 BC and divided in AD 395 into the Western Roman Empire and the eastern or Byzantine Empire; at its peak lands in Europe and Africa and Asia were ruled by ancient Rome

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.:

Roman Empire

–noun

1. the lands and peoples subject to the authority of ancient Rome.

2. the form of government established in ancient Rome in 27 b.c., comprising the Principate or Early Empire (27 b.c.–a.d. 284) and the Autocracy or Later Empire (a.d. 284–476).

3. a later empire, as that of Charlemagne or the Byzantine Empire, regarded as a restoration or continuation of the ancient Roman Empire or one of its branches.

Encarta® World English Dictionary: 1. territory ruled by Roman emperors: the territories ruled by ancient Rome under its emperors, from 27 bc to bc 395. In 395, these territories were split into the Byzantine or Eastern Roman Empire and the Western Roman Empire.

Compact Oxford English Dictionary: noun - the empire under Roman rule established in 27 bc and divided in ad 395 into the Western or Latin and Eastern or Greek Empire.

I suppose I could keep looking but the point is, in English sources, the term "Roman Empire," as the term is used in English, refers to the period between Augustus and the splitting of the Empire and fall of the West. I have now provided six sources for this, really without even trying. As an administrator, you certainly should understand the importance of Wikipedia following the path of published scholarship, and not trying to set the trend itself (i.e. original research) by being the only encyclopedia or source that extends the use of the term "Roman Empire" in English clear through the Byzantine period. In the majority of sources the term, in English, refers to the period of Roman history between Augustus and the splitting of the Empire and/or fall of the West (e.g. the beginning of the Byzantine period) Brando130 (talk) 04:31, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

What are you trying to argue here? I could quote a bunch of sources using it in different terms from this, including up to 1453, modern historians as well as Edward Gibbon. I already know what historians write and where they are lazy, where they employ terminological conveniences, and that lower down the intellectual food chain people misinterpret historiographic culture for historical fact. Besides, half the sources you are quoting are saying that the "Byzantine Empire" is the Roman Empire, which is stupidly obvious. Only Dictionary.com shares the amateurish presentation of this info with the current wiki version. In modern historiographical culture different names get used. It is only people much further down the intellectual food chain who actually believe this to mean the Roman Empire ended because a Germanic ruler in Italy changed his title and desposed the more titular of the two current Roman emperors. This is very easy just now, as by default you are arguing 476 is the factual end of the Roman Empire and should be presented as such in a template. That's just putting fiction forward as fact, common on wiki admittedly, but not acceptable. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 04:52, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

You're pretty dense, bubs. You've managed to read right through the entire point. But you nailed it when you said "In modern historiographical culture different names get used." - Exactly. What's the name used for the Roman period before Augustus? "Roman Republic" after Augustus? "Roman Empire" after the empire is split? "Western Roman Empire," "Eastern Roman Empire / Byzantine Empire" - where would you find information in an encyclopedia on Sulla's time? in the "Roman Republic" article - on Nero's reign? The "Roman Empire" article - but Manuel Komnenos? If you're reading in English, you look for Byzantine Empire in the encyclopedia.

The dates in the infobox should likewise reflect the dating period that the article covers. Thats what seems "stupid obvious" to me. The "end" of the Roman Empire in the context of the article, and its limited scope, refers to the fall of the West and the numerous cultural, geographic and linguistic changes that mark the beginning of the Byzantine period. (Plenty of extra information given here on the Decline of the Roman Empire article) And please, for the last time, all of this is not in ignorance of the fact that the Roman political system continued - that the Byzantines are the 'Romans' in this sense - We all know that. The point is that the article's scope encompasses the traditional use of the term "Roman Empire," (between Augustus and the time the empire split, as cited across six sources now) with its traditional end (read again: traditional end, granted many now see it as a transformation, etc.) at the beginning of the Byzantine period - thus dates on the article should reflect that. Brando130 (talk) 08:04, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Alright, you're again missing the important points. The dates of the article do not reflect the beginning of the Byzantine period nor the end of the Roman period. The infobox presents fiction as fact, and isn't acceptable. If you can make that not the case, then talk on, but otherwise you're just wasting your time and pushing irrelevancies. Sorry. Also, your comprehension of the tertiary sources you're "citing" is lagging, as they do not support 476 as a date, not that it would matter if they did. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:12, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I think we've talked over each other quite enough, time to let some other editors weigh in. Funny thing is, if infoboxes weren't so inherently ambiguous, we probably wouldn't even disagree, as you seem to simply be arguing that the infobox is giving a false date to the end of the Roman Empire, and I'm simply arguing that the infobox is giving a traditional date for the end of the Empire, and that the infobox should not continue until the fifteenth century because the article does not do so. But as for 476 not representing some magical moment in time when the ancient Roman Empire dramatically went 'poof' - on this we are in complete agreement. Brando130 (talk) 17:28, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with this, if not for the infoboxes this discussion would probably be non-existent. But why does this article not simply run up to 395 and then refer to Western Roman Empire and Byzantine Empire for the phases 395-476 (/480) and 395-1453, respectively? Iblardi (talk) 17:46, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Infoboxes are the root of much evil on this encyclopedia. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:17, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Could we not just delete the infobox without loss? Srnec (talk) 06:07, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

In theory, that would be great. In practice it would be reverted. :( Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 01:26, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

The date of 476 comes to us from Marcellinus Comes who wrote: Hesperium Romanae gentis imperium, quod septingentesimo nono urbis conditae anno primus Augustorum Octavianus Augustus tenere coepit, cum hoc Augustulo periit, anno decessorum regni imperatorum quingentesimo vigesimo secundo, Gothorum dehinc regibus Roman tenentibus. That should explain why the date 476 has endured for centuries. Legis Nuntius (talk) 08:34, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. Were it not for the hesperium at the beginning, I could hardly think of a better phrase to describe the fact that 'the' Roman Empire had ended. The association with the city of Rome itself is a very natural one. Iblardi (talk) 19:14, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

The date of 476 comes to us from Marcellinus Comes who wrote: ...

I hardly think so ... Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 11:56, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Why, yes, Marcellinus clearly identifies the deposition of Romulus as the end of the Roman empire in the West, whatever the implications for the general discussion. Iblardi (talk) 12:03, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

"Western" is obviously very important, as Marcellinus like all other inhabitants of the Roman Empire in his time wouldn't have thought for a moment that "Byzantium" wasn't the Roman Empire, as indeed not American would doubt that the present day USA is indeed the USA (such nonsense was only invented more than a millennium later). You said the "The date of 476 comes to us from Marcellinus Comes"; nope, he like many others just said the western Empire ended after the deposition of the titular western emperor Romulus. Medieval westerners afterwards did not believe the Roman Empire ended in 476, and in fact reigns of Roman emperors are one of the main dating mechanisms in western chronicle writing in the early and high middle ages, moving from the "Byzantine" empire only after the Pope "transferred" the Roman imperium from the Empress Irene to Charlemagne. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 01:25, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

You do not have to persuade me, I am not contesting all of this. The way I interpreted user:Legis Nuntius' words, he meant to say that the date 476 has some value as a demarcation line, since it was also seen as such by an important contemporary chronicler and therefore is not purely a later invention. I observe that it is interesting that Marcelllinus makes this explicit association between the first and the last Augustus. Apart from this, I do not take a particular stance in this great Battle of Civilizations except that I think it is generally best for Wikipedia to follow the most commonly accepted terminology. Iblardi (talk) 17:33, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Protected

Because of the revert-warring, I have fully protected the page from editing. Please settle this through discussion, not reverting. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:16, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

:Fine by me but since the other editor is also an administrator I would suppose that the 'protection' of the page will be limited to his patience. (struck by author) Brando130 (talk) 17:28, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Wheel-warring is almost never done Brando. I see you have magically become reasonable above. What then do you suggest as a compromise? I'd suggest clearly stating "United Roman Empire" (or something similar) with an end date of 395; this makes the Byzantine and Western Empire successions make sense. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 17:32, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

That would also be my proposal. Iblardi (talk) 17:48, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd be fine with any term that doesn't constitute original research, though I'd like to give it a while and see what kind of input we can collect from the RFC. (Which I imagine will now get some attention, given the protection level.) Brando130 (talk) 18:01, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

It has to be clear that the terms "Roman Empire" and "Byzantine"/"Eastern Roman Empire" and "Western Roman Empire" are not mutually exclusive. Besides using one's own brain, it is easy enough to verify that it is common in Byzantine history to switch between Byzantine Empire and Roman Empire. And Brando, using sources slightly less tertiary than the American Heritage Dictionary does not constitute original research. Bottom line is that the current version is unacceptably inaccurate and misleading. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:14, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes well I was using the dictionary sources originally to demonstrate the limited extent of whats usually meant by "Roman Empire" in English (certainly not teritary for that purpose) - limitations that are also present in this article, like the Britannica article, and who knows how many other "Roman Empire" entries in various dictionaries and encyclopedias. Yes, a better source than a dictionary could be found giving a traditional date for the end of the Western Empire. Its also true the terms are not all mutually exclusive, in fact the Byzantine Empire article has "Roman Empire" in bold as an alternative title. As for the original research bit, I'm simply pointing out that if we're going to use terms like "United Roman Empire" we need to be able to cite usage of the term elsewhere - it can't simply be a term we've come up with ourselves. (I'm also not trying to be rude or suggesting that avoiding OR would be novel

The infobox entry that we're both wasting too much time on doesn't even actually tell the user that this is the "end" - it simply fills an end= parameter and ends up being the last thing on the list. If a cited 'traditional' date for the end of the Western Empire is not acceptable as the last item on the list, then perhaps a compromise would be to find a way to break the infobox down a little further, to be a little more explanatory on where to look for information not covered by the scope of this article. The infobox could give the event of the splitting of the empire, link to relevant articles on Eastern and Western halves, and perhaps give Romulus' deposing as a traditional date for the end of the Western Empire, and the sack of Constantinople as the traditional date for the end of the Eastern. Then the infobox's presentation would be similar to that of the article (e.g. it covers the Classical period and sends you to other articles as you get through late antiquity) Brando130 (talk) 18:57, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

"United Roman Empire" is Roman Empire with an adjective placed before it, for which there are tones of things one could cite. You may be able to find dodgy sources saying the [western] Roman Empire ended in 476, but one can equally finds lots saying 1453 and yet more still contradicting such assertion. Wait .... secondary sources contradicting each other ... we have a paradox! The solution to that is to use one's own brain. And yes, being accurate and noting that 476 is the traditional end date for the "Western Empire and 1453 for the eastern (and thus the entire Empire) is useful. Bottom line again is that current version is factually inaccurate and has to go. 395 is useful date for convenience, though as the Empire lasted until 1453 it wouldn't be accurate to imply that the Empire ended in 395, hence placing the adjective before Roman Empire (still not satisfactory as the Roman Empire was again united after the separate West disappeared). Of course, another solution is just to get rid of the stupid infobox! Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 19:07, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

With your comments in mind, I propose finishing off the events in the infobox as such:

• 395 - Theodosius I permanently divides (or simply "divides", or some variant) the Empire into Eastern and Western halves.
• 476 - Romulus Augustus deposed by Odoacer, the traditional end of the Western Roman Empire
• 1453 - Fall of Constantinople to the Ottoman Turks, the traditional end of the Eastern Roman Empire

This way the infobox does not imply that the Empire ended outright in the fifth century, hopefully addressing your concern. Does that proposal or something similar sound acceptable? Any emendations? Brando130 (talk) 19:31, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

That is factual so far, except the first part. Suggest amendment to "395 - Death of Theodosius leads to the division into Eastern and Western halves". Can try and post a suggested version of template tomorrow. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 03:30, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

So you've solved the infobox fight, but what about the article itself? Should it be about the entire history of the "Roman" Empire, including the eastern and western halves, or only about the unified empire, from 27 B.C. to 395 A.D.? I personally vote for the latter. When Augustus started the Principate in 27 B.C., the Roman state (strong, wide-ranging, pagan, Latin-speaking, Rome-centered) was far more similar to that of the late Roman Republic than that of the Byzantine Empire in 1453 (feeble, tiny, Christian, Greek-speaking, Constantinople-centered). The Eastern and Western halves were successor states of the unified Roman Empire, just as the Roman Empire was a successor state of the Roman Republic. Besides, if you extend the argument that the Roman Empire was a continuous state through the end of the Byzantine remnant, the final date of the Roman Empire is not even 1453, but 1461, the year of the fall of the Empire of Trebizond (another successor state). I think that's just silly. A. Parrot (talk) 18:44, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

The Ottoman Empire is a more convincing successor state than Trebizond, so you'd be talking the end of the Great War then! But the end of the actual Roman state was 1453. The article needs trimmed down on so many levels. No need to devote four times the space to the the western Empire's less than a century of separate existence compared to more than a millennium of the eastern's. Too much Julio-Claudian stuff too, and the succeeding dynasties. Too much politics generally. There's a random section on language, probably there because of its appeal to nationalists, but the presence of which creates a huge imbalance of coverage. Also, the Holy Roman Empire stuff is misleading. The latter was set up not as a resurrection of the Western Empire but as a replacement of the [eastern] Roman Empire then current. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 19:42, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Simply end this article at AD 395. Give one paragraph for the Western Roman Empire and another one for the Byzantine Empire (there is no sense in duplicating huge ammounts of information - there are proper articles for both subject). Leave a short summary for all self-proclaimed ressuraction attempts and influence upon Western culture. Flamarande (talk) 11:59, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. A. Parrot (talk) 18:00, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

roman

roman soldiers were in armor only for war —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.25.83.224 (talk) 00:30, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

27 BC-1453 AD

The correct date of the fall of the whole Roman Empire is 27 BC- 1453AD. The Holy "Roman Empire" should be removed from this article.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Titus001 (talk • contribs)

Agree with the first bit, but read the conversation above. The article is being confined to 27-395 for editorial convenience. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 00:48, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

You know what, there is no "correct date". The Empire did not "end", it split up and faded away, and morphed into other things in multiple stages. Arguing about the true date of the Roman Empire is just a Rorschach test for one's political biases. Talk about angels dancing on the head of a pin! FilipeS (talk) 12:29, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

You're right. The Roman Empire ended just last year. Yep, in 2007. Why? Because I say so. And getting drafted during the Vietnam War didn't really end my formal education either. My education just morphed into other things in multiple stages, like learning how to shoot things that kill people. Still education, wasn't it?--John Foxe (talk) 17:50, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

If you have a point to make, make it. Wikipedia is not a chatroom. FilipeS (talk) 16:13, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Reality is always complex and you have conflicting tendencies/threads, however as an encyclopedia WP has to go with the usual categorization and that clearly distinguishes between the roman empire (27bc-395ad/476ad), the byzantine or east roman empire (395-1453) and germanic emperors of Rome (from 800AD on). Also note that these empires belong to different periods. The roman empire belongs to antiquity whereas the byzantine and germanic empires belong to the medieval ages. There is however a transition phase 400-600AD which is the end of antiquity during this phase the byzantine empire is still considered a "real" roman empire and considered as the sole roman empire after the west falls in 476. But after 600 customs and cultures in the east roman empire change and the language changes from latin to greek as well.--Kmhkmh (talk) 02:50, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

the dates at the top

wouldnt it be "27 BC – 395/1453"? since were using both the fall of the east and west for rthe rest of the box ect.--Jakezing (talk) 14:07, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Eastern Romans

However, the Eastern Romans were always ideologically Roman. Wouldn't it be reasonable to say that Roman culture merely evolved over a period of over 1500 years? Let's remember that the Eastern Romans existed in a completely different world to that of the Western Romans. Europe had entered the Dark Ages and the Eastern Romans merely evolved and adapted to the changing conditions of the Medieval world.

Western Europe, that is. The Eastern Europeans didn't have a Dark Age, they still got to be part of the Roman Empire! ;-) Jmacwiki (talk) 05:11, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Across Europe the languages changed, cultures changed, fashions changed, systems of government changed and so did the laws. It would be impossible for the Roman Empire to perpetually stay the same and I only see it as natural that it evolved over such an immense period of time.

Take the diadem for example, it started off as a simple band of pearls with gold tied around the head but ended up as a large conical type of crown with pearls dangling down the sides. It was very different yet still symbolised the same thing and went by the same name. It simply evolved according to the styles of the time.

I disagree with the 395 date. 1453AD is the correct date of the fall of the empire. This should be in the date box since the easern roman empire was the surviving part of the empire. People should continue to edit the date to 1453AD. Something the "Byzantine" people might enjoy.

WHAT, IF ANYTHING, IS A BYZANTINE? http://www.romanity.org/htm/fox.01.en.what_if_anything_is_a_byzantine.01.htm

Animated Roman map from 301 BC- 1453AD http://www.friesian.com/images/maps/rome-big.gif --Titus001 (talk) 03:16, 29 May 2008 (UTC) --Titus001 (talk) 20:37, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

This argument is weak in contrast to all the statements on this page that make it very evident that 395 is a better date. Present arguments against them, and then maybe you might have a valid point. Americans are ideologically British, but America is clearly no longer part of the British government. 1453 is only the correct date for the Eastern Roman Empire, not the entire Roman Empire that existed before it. Jcchat66 (talk) 23:17, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Read Deacon of Pndapetzim post above. I agree with him and would of typed something similar to his. --Titus001 (talk) 05:14, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

"United Roman Empire" is Roman Empire with an adjective placed before it, for which there are tones of things one could cite. You may be able to find dodgy sources saying the [western] Roman Empire ended in 476, but one can equally finds lots saying 1453 and yet more still contradicting such assertion. Wait .... secondary sources contradicting each other ... we have a paradox! The solution to that is to use one's own brain. And yes, being accurate and noting that 476 is the traditional end date for the "Western Empire and 1453 for the eastern (and thus the entire Empire) is useful. Bottom line again is that current version is factually inaccurate and has to go. 395 is useful date for convenience, though as the Empire lasted until 1453 it wouldn't be accurate to imply that the Empire ended in 395, hence placing the adjective before Roman Empire (still not satisfactory as the Roman Empire was again united after the separate West disappeared). Of course, another solution is just to get rid of the stupid infobox!" Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 19:07, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I find these endless debates soo boring. There was an Roman empire with its original capital being Rome. However at a later stage the capital changed from being a particular city per se (as we tend to understand this word) but became whatever city the current emperor held his imperial court (and at several times there were several emperors!). While Rome kept its cultural (and perhaps even ideological) importance other cities slowly gained in importance (Trier, Adrianople, Milan, etc).

Then we have Constantin the Great (there were others but he is the most important one) who managed to re-unify the empire. He choose Byzantium, (re-)built it, and increased its importance, giving it a lot of beautiful titles (New Rome, etc) and creating another Roman Senate.

However the city Rome still kept its cultural and ideological importance (and its senate too), and became also the home of the Pope. Meanwhile the Roman empire kept on being re-divided and re-united until AD 395. With the death of Theodosius in 395 the empire is divided for the last time and we have two Roman Empires. The Western Roman Empire who kept the cultural capital of Rome while the western imperial court was located at Ravenna. This empire was conquered by the Germanic invaders and ended officially in 476. The Eastern Roman Empire (which we usually call Byzantine Empire) with its capital of Byzantium/Constantinople (with a short period of Nicea) which survived and thrived until being conquered by the Ottoman Turks in 1453.

This leaves us with three choices:

1) common scholarship which seems to favour 476 (you can argue that it is western scholarship and I will answer that history seems to be written by winners, and not losers).

2) Byzantine scholarship which loudly proclaimed that Constantinople was the New Rome and that the Byzantine Empire was in fact the Roman Empire. (seems to be largely ignored by later scholars - and to honest these days seems to mostly championed by ppl of Greek cultural background).

3) 395 as the point of the final division of the old Roman empire, and the Western Roman Empire and the Byzantine Empire as equal successor states, with two diffrent end dates. Flamarande (talk) 20:23, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

May I offer a 4th choice: 610AD - the commencement of the reign of Heraclius. This is becoming popular with historians as the delineating line between the end of the classical period/empire and the beginning of the medieval empire whose distinguishing features, since Belisarius's destructive campaigns in Italy that truly sent the peninsula into the dark ages, had become distinctly different from what preceded it and what remained in the West. This was also the time when the language was officially changed from Latin to Greek. However, irrespective of what anyone says, it was the always the Roman empire, right up to 1453. Sincerely, Romaioi (talk) 16:13, 2 June 2008 (UTC).

I personally would not object to having "our" Roman Empire continue into the 7th century, which is after all considered the closing period of Late Antiquity, but I still think that 395 is a much better, because more neutral, breaking point than 610. The objection against the latter date would be that it is artificial as an end date since we are dealing with a conintuous development, not a sudden break with the past, while the event of 395 is objectively identifiable as the end of the united empire. After that we have de facto (though not nominally) two separate empires. Choosing 395 as the end of the united Roman empire will avoid the whole question of when the empire came to an end altogether. Iblardi (talk) 18:23, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry I disagree with inventing dubious WP:OR criteria for ending the Roman Empire at 610 or a 7th century date or such, esp. anachronistic linguo-nationalistic criteria. Either cut it off for pure article convenience at 395 or take it for the full length of its history to 1453. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 01:37, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Its hardly dubious (WP:OR) as you claim, Deacon of Pndapetzim as plenty of texts that talk about using 610AD as a delineator (they are typically newer, more up to date texts). Cassells Encyclopaedia of World History (a very broad body of work) suggests it, for example. Do a Google search and you will find plenty of sources suggesting 610. This is pretty much the point where it was most apparent that the old economic systems were no longer viable and the Theme (medieval system) came in. Your suggestion that its dubious is a little harsh.

I frankly don't care which date they use. Actually, it is rather superfluous to use a date as it is not a clear cut issue. 476 AD is fine by me, as long as they use qualifiers! Its all about the qualifiers! It is more important that the common texts, typically bought by the general public, illustrate that it was not clear cut and elaborate on it; i.e. They should always point out was an official administrative split in 395, that the empire continued after the western emperor was deposed, that Rome was re-gained and held by the empire for some time, that Latin remained the official language to the 7th century, the switch to the Theme system etc, etc. After all, Justinian is considered the last great "Roman" emperor, even though he reigned almost 100 years later. How do you explain that after you say the empire ended in 476 or 395? By doing this, all bases get covered and the real Byzantine identity does not get lost. Also, the reader gains a better appreciation at a "global" level. Sincerely, Romaioi (talk)

Well if you can search it out in one or two of the hundreds of thousands of sources out there, it may or may not be WP:OR, but definitely WP:UNDUE. The date of the end of the Roman Empire is pretty-clear cut (1453); not clear cut is how to treat the topic of "Roman Empire" and what to cover in a popular encyclopedia. 395 makes the most sense for convenience, and 1453 for political reality. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 02:20, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

You certainly are entitled to your opinion. Its not really WP:UNDUE either. Romaioi (talk) 04:07, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Of course it is ... read the thing! Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 09:57, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually it is not, since his position isn't exactly a minority opinion at all, afaik it is in fact pretty much the scientific/academic standard version as far as structural/cultural changes are concerned. It just does not coincide with the traditional dating, which is much older, on from aperiod when historic science was heavily focused on events/dates rather social/cultural/structural processes. And if your argument is based formal succession without interruption you cannot use 1453 either but you would need to use 1204 instead 1453.--Kmhkmh (talk) 09:24, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Byzantines, quote unquote

I disagree with the use of quotation marks around the word "Byzantine". The term Byzantine is widely used by historians, and not altogether inaccurate. Now, I agree that it's an anachronistic term, but historians often find it useful to invent technical terms of their own a posteriori, to describe a certain period or a certain style in a civilization. Examples are legion: Merovingian, Carolingian, Capetingian, medieval, Napoleonic, Sassanian, Ottonian, Ottoman... This is not substantially different from the case of "Byzantine". FilipeS (talk) 17:18, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

It probably suffers from the unfortunate circumstance that the terms 'Byzantine' and 'Byzantinism' have negative connotations, but nevertheless Byzantine is a useful term to distinguish the medieval Roman empire centered around Constantinople from the classical one centered around Rome. The word is widely used and has even lent its name to an academic discipline (Byzantine Studies). As it is still the most commonly used term in historiography, it would i.m.o. be hyper-correct to put it between quotes. Iblardi (talk) 18:02, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Whilst I agree that use of the term Byzantine to distinguish the medieval form of the Roman Empire can be helpful, the people of that civilization always identified themselves as Roman. Further, as the empire was officially the Roman Empire, the term "Byzantine", while useful as a qualifier, is technically incorrect. The term was invented at a time when very little was understood of this culture, exacerbating the issue with it. Ubiquitous use of this term may result in misconceptions about the Eastern Roman people's identity – it is my "opinion" that this has already occurred. Many texts, are already neglecting to highlight why the term Byzantine is used nor how the people of that civilization identified themselves, officially or otherwise. I am for the use of quotation marks because of the importance of making this distinction and because, as FilipS stated, precisely because it is anachronistic. Sincerely, Romaioi (talk) 16:00, 2 June 2008 (UTC).

I think the quotes don't harm, also it might make sense to explain the use and history of this term somewhere, maybe not in this article but in a separate lemma or an disambiguation page with a short explantion. The most important things however is that switch from Roman to greel culture after 600AD is mentioned, but it looks like article does that soemwhat accurately.--Kmhkmh (talk) 12:35, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Legacy

Bulgarian and Serbian monarchs called themselves "Emperors of Bulgars and Romans" and "Emperors of Serbs and Romans". So, can we call Bulgaria and Serbia successor states?--212.86.230.114 (talk) 10:49, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

No. Flamarande (talk) 21:23, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Problem with the Infobox data

I've noticed that the infobox contains a few dates that can easily create a wrong impression, in particular the dates for the capital. Rome remained a capital after 286 and Constaninopel was not the capital after constantin's death. I understand that the more complex reality probably can not be displayed in the infobox for a lack of space, however it is imperative that the article itself explains the correct details, otherwise the reader will be misinformed. Currently the article lacks any detailed information about the various capitals after 286, this needs to be added somewhere.--Kmhkmh (talk) 12:29, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

476 AD?

Why is the fall of the Roman Empire for wiki at 476 AD? That is the fall of the western side of the Empire. The Eastern side continues for another 1,000 years. I just want to know why you are editing the date of the fall of the whole empire to 476 AD when that is wrong. I will keep editing the date to 1453 AD for a very long time.--Titus001 (talk) 22:44, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

End year of Roman Empire

I think a better resolution is to show the end years for both Western & Eastern Roman Empire simultaneously. We cannot conclude 476 as the end year of the entire empire, since Western and Eastern parts of the Empire were equal successor states of the pre-divided empire, which ended in different years. Thus, if we show the end years for both parts, the end year will look like "476 / 1453", and the end event looks like "Deposition of Romulus Augustus / Fall of Constantinople".--Wengier (talk) 22:45, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe there was a such thing as successor states. When the Western side of the Empire fell it made the eastern side of the Empire the sole remaining Roman Empire which fell in 1453 AD. This means it was a continuation of the empire not a successor. --Titus001 (talk) 23:13, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

You could say it was a continuation and not a successor, no problem. But we have to admit there were two Roman Empires since the division in 395. One fell in 476, and the other fell in 1453. By showing both, we avoid the disagreement on which marked the true end of the Roman Empire in infobox, but will be discussed in the article itself.--Wengier (talk) 23:29, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

But that would give us a vast amount of material to cover, with the short but messy history of the separate West Roman Empire and the very long history of the separate East Roman Empire. Besides, most people hear "Roman Empire" and think of the ancient one in Rome, not the medieval one in Constantinople. —Preceding unsigned comment added by A. Parrot (talk • contribs) 04:01, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

If your argument that "most people hear 'Roman Empire' and think of the ancient one ancient one in Rome, not the medieval one in Constantinople" is correct, then it means most people think Roman Empire ends in 286 (the last year the empire centered in Rome) or 330 (the year the empire centered in Constantinople), and not afterwards. See the capitals of the empire in the infobox. In this sense, 285/330 was a much better candidate than years such as 395.--207.112.72.162 (talk) 03:03, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

They were never "separated", though. FilipeS (talk) 12:24, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Much of this implies that the Western and Eastern Roman Empires were two different nations. Constantine moved the capital to Byzantium, before the fall of the West. So what justifies the fall of Western Rome being the fall of all of Rome when that wasn't even where the capital was? Think of it this way: if all of the Western United States got reconquered by Mexico, would the Eastern half no longer be America even if that's where the capital is? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.234.180.93 (talk) 01:51, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

A possible solution to the Roman/"Byzantine" problem

I'm new to discussing on wikipedia, but as I see there were many debates on the Roman/"Byzantine" problem and I would like to propose a solution to this problem. I see the new end date is 476/1453 AD which is much better than just 476 AD (although I think that the most accurate end date is 1453 or maybe even 1461, the fall of Trebizond). I believe there should be a new article made called "Ancient Roman Empire" and it should end in 330 when Constantine moved the capital to "New Rome" (or it could end in 284 with Diocletian's reforms) and the "Byzantine Empire" article should be renamed as "New Roman Empire" (because the official name of Constantinople during its time as capital of the empire was New Rome, Constantinople being a popular name) and make it cover the rest of roman history from 284/330 to 1453/1461 and it should deal with both western and eastern provinces. The "Roman Empire" article would then provide links to both "Ancient Roman Empire" and "New Roman Empire" (although since they were not called in their times either "Ancient", "New" nor "Byzantine" I would've liked an article showing the entire history of the Roman Empire from 27 BC to 1453/1461 AD, similar to this http://friesian.com/romania.htm , but I think that a separation between "Ancient" and "New" Roman Empire is better than Roman and "Byzantine", if we really have to split them). This could help to end these debates (or maybe not). Cody7777777 (talk) 00:32, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

We already have a redirect to the New Roman Empire, a propaganda term for the Italian Colonial Empire, used by Benito Mussolini and his supporters. Dimadick (talk) 10:49, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't realized that, but then maybe we should no longer use "New Roman Empire" to redirect to the "Italian Colonial Empire". In my opinion the term "New Roman Empire" would make more sense than "Byzantine Empire", because after 330 the official name of the city was no longer Byzantium, instead it was "New Rome", and as far as I know, although the Italians made propaganda about a new Roman Empire, Italy didn't changed its official name to New Roman Empire. However, other possible names for the Roman Empire after 284/330 would be "Medieval Roman Empire" or "Later Roman Empire", but I still believe "New Roman Empire" sounds better. Cody7777777 (talk) 11:30, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

The term "New Roman Empire" may sound better for some, but it isn't used by modern scholars. Flamarande (talk) 21:19, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

That's true it isn't used, but maybe we could be the first to use it, as long as we have reasonable arguments, I don't see why it would be wrong. The idea, however was not if "New Roman Empire" sounds better (although I said that earlier), but that it makes more sense than "Byzantine Empire". However, I doubt that "Byzantine Empire" will get renamed unless historians somehow stop using the term.Cody7777777 (talk) 00:06, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

We can't use it because it's original research. Wikipedia is not the place to change academic conventions you don't like. --Nicknack009 (talk) 09:07, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Resolving the Roman/Byzantine mess

I suggested that this article end with 395, for length reasons and as a compromise between the traditional 476 and the 1453 favored by ardent Byzantines, but unfortunately did not have the time to make the necessary changes myself. Now I do. Tomorrow I am going to do major work on this article to reflect this change. If someone has a reason why I shouldn't, besides the same old arguments, say so now. If not, please do not interfere with my editing. I'm new to making large-scale edits, so it will take a while. A. Parrot (talk) 04:14, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

I like how it is right now. When you edit the date to 395 I and others will promptly edit the date to 1453 AD or 476 AD/1453 AD. What do you mean by ardent Byzantines? It is fact that the whole Roman Empire fell in 1453 AD. No such thing as successors. It was a continuation of the Empire.--Titus001 (talk) 05:39, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

That is debatable (and as a matter of fact all the three dates should be mentioned). Parrot, just do it. This article has information which is also present in the "Byzantine Empire" and "Western Roman Empire", and it shouldn't be so. I recoment that you create an article called "History of the Roman Empire" (same lines as the other country-articles) where all its history can be presented. Flamarande (talk) 10:54, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Since the article is called "Roman Empire", it means it refers to the entire history of the Roman Empire, so the current end date 476 / 1453 is better and I don't think it will be changed through "edit wars". However, a new article called "History of the Roman Empire" could indeed solve these debates. Cody7777777 (talk) 11:14, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Ending in 395 and then leading to "History of the Byzantine Empire" and to a "History of the Western Roman Empire". If we are honest the articles "Roman Empire" and "Byzantine Empire" are a huge clumsy mess because they also try to show the respective histories. Flamarande (talk) 11:23, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

There is no problem to FOCUS ON the empire from 27 BC to 395 AD, and then lead to "History of the Byzantine Empire" and to a "History of the Western Roman Empire". However the article should not give any impression that the empire ends in this year.--207.112.72.162 (talk) 03:14, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps this article could be called "Roman Empire (W+E)", which could end in 395 AD (although during the time of Justinian it could be again W+E), and "History of the Roman Empire" could include links to "Roman Empire (W+E)" and then to "Western Roman Empire" and "Eastern Roman Empire". (Unlike my former suggestion with "Ancient" and "New" Roman Empire, I don't think "Roman Empire (W+E)" can be considered an "original reasearch", because it simply refers to the time when the empire is not splited in East and West). Cody7777777 (talk) 11:47, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

No, that term doesn't appear anywhere in history as it is taught today. We must and should use terms that are taught and accepted by modern historians, teachers, and scholars : Roman Empire, Western Roman Empire, and Byzantine Empire. It doesn't matter what the ancient peoples called themselves or wrote about themselves, or that these names are anacronical (were not used during the respective era) we follow current scholarship and use terms and names that are currently widely recognized as such. 'Nuff said. Flamarande (talk) 11:58, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that modern historians don't say that the Roman Empire ended in 395 AD and this is also an "original idea" (please correct me if I'm wrong). In this case it seems that we have to leave the end date 476/1453 even if we end the information in the article at 395 AD. However, the true problem is maybe that Roman history is too long and the official conventions seem to make things more complicated, than help them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cody7777777 (talk • contribs) 12:07, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

I gave my opinion about this irrelevant issue above. I stand by what I wrote then. Any date one can offer for the "end of the Roman Empire" is contentious, and therefore POV. In my opinion, Wikipedia should either skirt the issue (it's an irrelevancy, anyway), or be as eclectic as possible, listing all the possible dates that have been proposed, giving the rationale for each, but without privileging any particular one. FilipeS (talk) 12:27, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Agreed 395, 476, and 1453 can and should be presented as equal candidates. And 395 is not an original idea. The empire was divided for the last time, there was no later re-unification as the WRE was conquered; and that is a fact. Flamarande (talk) 14:02, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

You're proposing that 395 is the end of the "Roman Empire" (since that's the article's name), not just the end of the "Unified" empire, and I believe this is not a view held by most historians. Also, since Odoacer and later Theodoric recognized the roman emperor of Constantinople as the only emperor and ruled in his name, it can be considered that the empire was "reunified". But since, this would imply more debates, I agree with the 395/476/1453 idea. Cody7777777 (talk) 14:47, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

In this case we could leave 476 AD / 1453 AD. However, as a political entity it ended in 1461 (and as a national entity they continued in Ottoman times as well, since they still called themselves Romans, although after 1204, some of them called themselves Greeks too). Cody7777777 (talk) 12:42, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Just because you repeat something ad nauseam doesn't make it more popular. I believe that you are confusing the state with the people. Peoples (sometimes also called nations) usually survive (sometimes they adopt a new cultural identity - most times a mix of the conquered and the conquerors) but states usually have an official end. States are conquered, divided into more and newer states, or dissolved. These articles are about the states and not about the peoples. Flamarande (talk) 14:02, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

When I said "political entity" I reffered to the state, when I said "national entity" I was reffering to the people. I guess I should've made myself more clear. Cody7777777 (talk) 14:47, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

I have fixed the introduction section to reflect the 395 solution and copied the long and detailed history portions into a new History of the Roman Empire page which includes some of the history of the east and west. It needs a lot of work, but my thinking is that we should have this article cover mainly the pre-split Roman Empire, paring down its history portions to manageable length and placing more emphasis on other subjects than span the course of its history ("Language," "Economy," et cetera). Meanwhile, the History article can cover everything, including East Roman history. But this article should not include everything up to 1453, for the following reasons:

• The disintegration of the empire was a very long and messy process, so it's hard to say when exactly it ceased to exist, but you have to draw the lines somewhere. If you extend the 1453 argument to other civilizations, we'd have a similar argument about the Frankish Empire and its French and "Holy Roman" successor states. • Most people (or at least English-speakers) hear "Roman Empire" and think of the ancient empire centered on Rome, not the medieval one in Constantinople. • Most historians acknowledge some kind of distinction between the ancient empire and the medieval one. Of course the eastern empire was descended from the original, but the changes between the two were great enough that you could easily argue that the eastern empire succeeded the original just as the Roman Empire succeeded the Roman Republic. Heck, maybe instead of History of the Roman Empire, we should have an article on History of the Roman State, and include everything starting with the Roman Kingdom! Anyway, I'll continue working on what we have.A. Parrot (talk) 20:31, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

There is a quite simple solution, namely the creation of "History of the Western Roman Empire" and "History of the Byzantine Empire" (could also be used in the respective articles and should be created later); the splitting point being 395 (somewhere around there). I'm willing to help (a lot - but not today) but I noticed a problem in the new article. It uses both BC/AD and BCE/CE. I could argue that all the other relvant articles use BC/AD (sparingly I might add) but fact is that BC/AD is currently the most used dating form in use today (and I'm proud to say that I'm atheist - but not an anti-Christian/religion zealot) and therefore BC/AD should be used in these articles. Would this create a problem? Flamarande (talk) 21:06, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Your argument that "most people hear 'Roman Empire' and think of the ancient empire centered on Rome, not the medieval one in Constantinople" is obviously incorrect. Otherwise, it means most people think Roman Empire ends in 286 (the last year the empire centered on Rome) or 330 (the year the empire centered in Constantinople), and not afterwards. See the capitals of the empire in the infobox. If we take your argument, then we have to also add 286 and/or 330 to the candidates.--207.112.72.162 (talk) 02:57, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Forget all the jumble mess, just know that the people of classical and medieval greece to the time of mid 20th century never used the word byzantine. Now as to the correct term, it depends on the time period. The ancient greeks around the time of roman dominance would call theselves people of hellenes. The christion greeks meanwhile would term themselves Romaioi,and if used the term hellenes,the Romaioi would hate even if he acknowledge his pagan past. Since the romaioi was extremely assertive of the that his empire was the true ROMAN EMPIRE/Basileria Romaion, so yes, a romaioi, considered himself ROMAN.

Now why do we have the creation of the different terms like byzantine? Blame the WESTERN EUROPEAN POLITICS and probably the POPE who crowned Charlemange. Since Charlemege was supposed the new roman emperor of the (Holy ) 'Roman Empire'

however, what do you do when there was already existing empire in the east? Simple you discredit them and call them the greek empire. Soon western europe was calling the greeks a bunch of things, and one of them was byzantine b/c it became popularized by the west.

The Byzantines were not real Romans, truly, they were deluded. A name made up centuries later by a German makes so much more sense for them.

True Romans were pagans and they didn't live after a certain random date. True Romans were the Romanized Barbarians of Gaul, Britain and northern Spain, because that's where our civilization arose and the Romans are our ancestors. Once Rome lost these people, the Roman Empire was dead and the core of the Roman state magically transformed into a different state. Let me repeat, "Byzantine" is a neologism ... it is a nonsense word when used as the basis of any civilizational argument. No surprise then that the Western world invented a new name for them - an inhabitant of the HRE no less - as they didn't want to acknowledge the fact that they were actually the real Roman state. No, Germany was the real representative of the Romans ... coz the infallible Pope had said so. Prof. Michael Angold, uses the term "Byzantine" in many of his books, but he is fully aware its a modern misleading neologism. Just convenient terminology. Problem with most people's perception is that the Roman Empire proper is the Julio-Claudian Empire and the Republic. People don't tend to be that interested, and hence know little, about the centuries after that.27-BC---1453 AD is the correct date for this Empire.--Titus001 (talk) 23:46, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Fine, now you take your problem(s) to the academia and debate with them ad absurdum. Wikipedia uses current terminology and does not intend to correct the mistakes of the ages. Thereby it uses the 'modern misleading convenient terminology' as de facto that is the official terminology currently used in this mainly western-influenced world. Flamarande (talk) 12:35, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Modern historians also use the term "Eastern Roman Empire" (and it is part of the current terminology), perhaps the future article "History of the Byzantine Empire" should be called "History of the Eastern Roman Empire", since we would also have "History of the Western Roman Empire". (However, In my opinion historians should just study history and not make history by using "conventional" ahistoric end dates and inventing "conventional" imaginary states.) Cody7777777 (talk) 08:45, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually independent of calling it byzantine or east roman empire, it is clear that roughly until 600 AD the people in that empire considered themselves as Romans and their culture was roman/latin and they also ruled large parts of the former western empire as well. However that changed in the 7th century most western possessions were lost to arabs and germanic kingdoms and the culture/language of the empire changed from latin to greek. That also coincides roughly with the end of (late) antiquity. So for the period during antiquity it makes sense to use roman empire, west roman empire, east roman empire. After that, i.e. for the period during the medieval ages, you may call the east roman empire byzantine empire to distinguish it from the entity during late antiquity. As far as academic/colloquial terminology goes both terms are used, in that sense Wikipedia does not have to settle for a specific solution. It is more important that does contains all the details and that in doubt redirects for the alternative terms are created.--Kmhkmh (talk) 09:05, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't really want to reapeat what has been said already, but it seems I have no choice. The people called themselves "Romans" and they continued to do this after the 7th century as well (the name "Greeks" was used only for those living in Athens, or the Peloponesus, at least until 1204, when some aristocrats, began using the name "Greeks"/"Hellenes", but most of them still called themselves "Romans"), the official name of the state was "Empire of the Romans" until its fall in the 15th century (and these articles are more about states, as I understood) and since the official name of the capital was not "Byzantium" (instead it was "New Rome"), "History of the Eastern Roman Empire" makes more sense and it could end these debates. Also (ancient) roman culture was based on greek culture, and the greek language was a "language of culture" before the time of Heraclius. (Also, the greeks were not the "ethnic" majority of the empire until the 14th-15th centuries. Even in the 8th century when the empire no longer controlled, most of its former provinces in the east, the balkans, North Africa, or most of Italy, there were still many people living in Anatolia, such as Phrygians, Galatians, Isaurians, Paphlagonians, Armenians, so it cannot be considered a greek state.) Cody7777777 (talk) 09:53, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Cody, good post. I'm afraid it will count for nothing. Article content is determined by the demographics of editors ... and as most people in and outside of wikipedia know the average intellectual capacity of editors is far too low, and sadly in this article a large number edit away, spoiling the article. So we'll all have to accept that the Roman Empire ended in 376 and a Greek nationalist state replaced it in the east, turning from Latin to Greek and pagan to Christian. I say that as a joke, but that's actually what most of these guys believe. ;) 81.215.75.143 (talk) 13:25, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Look, if you had read Cody's posts a bit above, you would realize that Cody argues that both dates should be kept (476/1453). Other users don't agree with him but at least they don't try to impose their POV upon the article through force. I advise you to calm down. Flamarande (talk) 15:20, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Funny how it seems like everyone wanting to introduce what would amount to original research on Wiki always comes and rails against the trends in scholarship by telling all the Wiki editors on talk how ignorant and uninformed they all are. Some people here comment as though Wiki editors themselves made up the term Byzantine. Wikipedia is source-based prose that is supposed to give you, essentially, what's already there. Thus, just like if you were reading Britannica or poking through books at the library, if you want Augustus, Claudius, Titus, you check for "Roman Empire" - you want Manuel Komnenos or Michael Palaiologos, you look under "Byzantine Empire." Edit warring the dates in the infobox is not going to change that. If you want to remove the usage of the term and concept of Byzantine, you must do so in the academic world, not the Wiki world. We're not trying to be pioneers. Brando130 (talk) 15:55, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

A short (well, almost) comment on the whole debate. We shouldn't forget that "Byzantine" is simply a historiographical term, something that the Byzantine Empire article makes abundantly clear, in its lede no less. As such, any accusations that "Western" users might still be trying to somehow deny the Romanity (or Romiosyne if you prefer it in Greek) of "Byzantium" seem misguided to me. Yes, Greek speakers did call themselves Romioi (lit. Romans) up to the 19th century and yes, the Ottomans did conquer the Roman empire (the last for our Turkish editors, unless they're simply Greek Polites so they argue from a different perspective -in that case, my bad ;). Also, note that the infoboxes currently name the Eastern and Western parts as succesors to Rome but the Western part has NO subsequent successor (see? no Charlemagne-Papist-Western propaganda). So, what's exactly wrong? Can't wiki use convenient, historiographical terms? No one asked the Greek-speaking "Mycenaeans" what to call them either, after all. A storm in a teacup, quite frankly. To sum it up: all in all, I believe that the articles make the relation between names, empires and so on quite clear so there's no need to throw away established terms.

[as an asides, another note/question: I believe terms such as Phrygians, Galatians etc. -but not Armenians- had acquired a regional meaning over time. same with "Greek" which, as you mention, was reserved for the inhabitants of what is modern Southern Greece. as for the "Greek identification" as taken up by "aristocrats after 1204" I believe you're referring to Gemistus Pletho and his followers, as well as some of the later Palaeologi (some of whom were influenced by him if I recall correctly). the Ottoman conquest of course interrupted any such possible progress which was to continue with the Neohellenic Enlightenment -the "Diafotismos"- but that's quite another story, completely unrelated to this article] 3rdAlcove (talk) 23:36, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

The problem with the term "Byzantine" was that it doesn't make sense as a historiographical term because a "historiographical term" must still have some link with the subject and this term doesn't because the name of the capital was not "Byzantium". Also, the terms "Greek Empire" and "Byzantine Empire" appeared because of western political reasons (although, I am not claiming that "western" users here have such reasons). Regarding the Mycenaeans, we have fewer informations about them and their capital was at Mycenae (while in the case about the eastern empire we know the official name of the state was "Empire of the Romans", and its capital was officialy named "New Rome"). In my previous post, I was proposing that the future article "History of the Byzantine Empire" (if it is made), should rather be called "History of the Eastern Roman Empire", since this could be a compromise between pro-395 and pro-476 users who want the information in the "History of the Roman Empire" to end around 395 AD, and pro-1453 and pro-1461 users who would get rid of the "Byzantine" term. Also the Western and Eastern parts were the continuation of the Roman Empire, rather than succesor states (or at least in their times, it was considered to be the same state with two emperors). Regarding the end date, in my point of view it is 1461 AD, since the political entity (or state) that started in 27 BC (or even 753 BC if we consider the entire Roman state), despite all the changes it suffered in its long time, no longer existed after 1461 (and these articles are about states rather than their culture). But I still support 476/1453, because it ended the former "edit war" between 476 and 1453 end dates, and it is also less likely to change (unlike just 476 or 1453). (Regarding the Phrygians, Galatians, Iasaurians, Paphlagonians, they indeed acquired a more regional meaning, but there is still no evidence that these people were gone, at least not until the turks came.) Cody7777777 (talk) 10:57, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Some of your points are well-taken. That being said, I fear that the disinfoboxes are inflicting their usual damage and discord. Perhaps doing away with them (since, let me reiterate, the Byzantine empire article makes everything clear; from what they called themselves -and what they actually were, as a polity- to what their Western and Eastern neighbours called them, when the empire 'fell' etc.) would be the best solution. I can also see your point regarding the "History of..." article. "History of Byzantine Empire" could be used, starting with the division, but making clear that some historians might use another starting point (eg Heraclius) for a specifically "Byzantine" (rather than "(Eastern) Roman" empire), ahistorical though the term might be. On another note, how about merging the "Page protection" section with this one? It feels like there are two different conversations talking about the same subject but ignoring each other (though similar points are made in both). 3rdAlcove (talk) 19:58, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

The end date in the (dis)infobox of this article can be left as it is now (476/1453), and the infobox should not be removed, at least if the conflict does not continue. The article "Byzantine Empire" makes indeed these things clear, but there are users (including myself) who prefer an article showing the entire History of the Roman Empire from 27 BC to 1453/1461 AD, but if we end the information in "History of the Roman Empire" article at 395 AD, then we should have "History of the Western Roman Empire" and "History of the Eastern Roman Empire" (instead of "History of the Byzantine Empire", since this would more likely result in more debates, it should be of course mentioned that some historians use the term "Byzantine" after some point, but it should not be treated as a different state, the article should just continue Roman history from 395 AD to 1453/1461 AD). Cody7777777 (talk) 23:19, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Imperium Romanum or Res publica Romana

I saw the note, but should we change the title in the infobox to imperium romanum in line with latin wikipedia of the article?w_tanoto (talk) 10:39, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Probably not. Did imperium ever mean the Roman State as a collective entity? If it did, it was rare. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:01, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

"Five good emperors"

I don't like this section header. It's an ad hoc concoction, and it's POV. I realise that the previous header was incorrect, as the emperors in this period were not all Antonines, but I think a different title should be found. FilipeS (talk) 10:20, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Page protection

In response to this request at WP:RFPP I have fully protected the page to end the edit war. I am aware that some editors are of the opinion that the issue is settled and that one individual is edit warring against consensus. However, reading this talk page, consensus was not entirely clear to me. If an overwhelming proportion of interested parties can indicate otherwise, I would be happy to knock it down to semi-protection. CIreland (talk) 14:28, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the current consensus is to remain the status quo, the currently most acceptable version, at least not change it by force. However, one individual is edit warring against this consensus.--Wengier (talk) 22:03, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, there are many people arguing for this. Misrepresenting the character and extent of opposition is the hallmark of disingenuousness, and is as likely to convince as a Christian sermon delivered to a Muslim. 81.215.73.199 (talk) 10:24, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

The current version is already the compromised version, other people at least won't change it by force. You are the only individual who is edit warring against it, aren't you?--Wengier (talk) 16:38, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, unfortunately I seem to have stumbled into this apparently rather nasty conflict (yesterday, in the course of doing a bit of RC-patrol and vandalism-fighting).

Ended up getting a temporary block, too, for the first time ever, for those efforts in regard to this article!

So, for that reason alone, I intend to try to understand better what exactly it is about this article that is controversial enough to have sparked such a contentious and heated dispute.

(I am not a Roman Empire scholar, nor do I play one on TV, and will therefore not be attempting to make any contribution to this discussion or to the article itself on that basis.)

I hope to review the comments made above and the content of the article more closely and as soon as possible, time permitting. May I ask, however, whether also perhaps someone already involved might try to summarize briefly here what seem to be the key points involved in the present conflict...?

Whatever the problem is, I am sure it can be resolved in a way acceptable to all around. Unless, of course, it is in part to do with one or more editors deliberately causing a conflict for no other reason that they enjoy having a conflict, in which case obviously it will not be possible to arrive at a mutually acceptable solution with those editors. I am however sure that that problem, too, can be resolved in a way acceptable to everyone else.

Regards to all, Wikiscient 23:38, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

As far as I know, the conflict was mainly about the end year of the Roman Empire. The empire was divided into two equal parts in 395, the Western part and the Eastern part. The Western Roman Empire fell in 476, whereas the Eastern Roman Empire (usually known as the Byzantine Empire) fell in 1453. The traditional view is that the Roman Empire ends in 476, which seems to be the mainstream view accepted by the (western) scholars and academics. However, some people disagree with it and consider 1453 as the correct end year, since the Eastern Roman Empire (a.k.a. the Byzantine Empire) fell in that year. This leads to the dispute between the views of pro-476 and pro-1453. An edit war occurred over half a month ago, and a solution was proposed to show the end years for both Western and Eastern parts of the empire in order to avoid the disagreement. While each party still thought their view was more accurate, this compromised version was accepted by both parties, and the edit war ended. After then, another user suggested 395 as a candidate, however it caused significant disagreements among users. The discussion seemed to have reached the end, until yesterday, unfortunately. An individual reverted the current compromised version showing both years to the one showing only 1453. This immediately leaded to another edit war, which resulted in the protection of the current version.--Wengier (talk) 01:03, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay, well, first of all, as far as I can, and could before, discern: the reverts I made and for which I got blocked for "edit warring" involved clear-cut cases of vandalism. Would anyone like to explain to me how I am wrong about that...?

Given that it appears to be those very same edits that are so in dispute now as to have resulted in page protection, would anyone like to make a case for accommodating those edits in some generally agreeable way into this article? I cannot at the moment fathom by what rationale either the deletion of valid and relevant factual content (and a language tag), or the introduction of an "alternate" spelling in conflict with the spelling already in use, could possibly be defended here. The validity and relevance of another name for "Roman Empire" is something perhaps we can find a scholar to weigh in on, or else find some other trivially appropriate way to consider the merit of its inclusion here.

And that should be that! What exactly is the problem here...?

Would the anonymous IP editor/editors care to perhaps cite some valid sources in support of whatever it is you are trying to say? Because if not then you really should be effectively prevented from continuing to vandalize this page, imho...

Wikiscient 03:23, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Furthermore, on a less immediately relevant but more important point: it seems to me quite obvious that the meaning of the term "Roman Empire" is "that Empire ruled by and from Rome."

It should also be quite clear, from the name if nothing else, that it is that Empire which is primarily the subject of this article. I do not see why so much time and effort has been spent in this discussion debating in what way and to what extent "parts of that Empire formerly ruled by and from Rome" should be incorporated into this article as its primary subject instead. That obviously ought quite rightly to be the topic of another article, titled "parts of that Empire formerly ruled by and from Rome" or, to use what appears to be the vernacular here, "The Byzantine Empire."

Would those in favor of prominently including the later dates and so forth in this article for that reason please cite valid sources in support of doing so?

Thanks, I'm sure that would help a lot!

Wikiscient 03:52, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, doesn't "Roman Empire" mean "the Empire of the Romans" instead of "the Empire ruled by and from Rome"? The capital of the empire was moved from Rome to Milan in 286, but I don't think there are many sources suggesting Roman Empire ends in 286.--Wengier (talk) 04:40, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay, fair enough, I'm sure that's a good point and I admit that I am at them moment being a bit impatient and abrupt concerning what is and is not "obvious" about this immense and complex topic.

Though as I believe someone has already noted somewhere above: the Holy Roman Empire was not of course any of those things, but nevertheless that is the generally accepted name for whatever in fact it was. Similarly, I suppose, here.

Still, though, the Roman Empire was for a while, at least, exactly that. The point at which it decisively and permanently became a Roman Empire in name only ought certainly to be considered the de facto end of it as such. And clearly the content of this article is primarily concerned with the actual "Roman Empire" in that literal sense of the term.

Again, then: why is this page blocked? Why, instead, is not the anonymous IP-address user who has been persistently and unilaterally making such unjustified edits to this article being blocked?

Anyone...?

Wikiscient 06:32, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

It's amusing to see modern people dictate to the ancient Romans what their empire was supposed to be.

Like most words, "Roman" has many meanings. One of them is "related to the city of Rome". But another one is "of the Romans". Alas, being a Roman, historically, was not always the same as being an inhabitant of Rome. In 212, emperor Caracalla granted Roman citizenship to all free inhabitants of the Roman Empire. They were all Romans, from the Maghreb to Mesopotamia, and from Britain to Egypt. When the empire fragmented, some of it managed to keep the Roman institutions and culture going, while the other half -- gradually -- gave up on Romanity. Unfortunately, the half that survived the crisis of the 5th century was not the west. Some western Europeans are very confused by this. FilipeS (talk) 18:14, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

FilipeS is completely right, of course, but please also see the above sections for more thoughts and opinions. Perhaps the suggested merger, as well. 3rdAlcove (talk) 19:58, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Filipe is correct, and Wikiscient should stick to topics he can cope with. This has come up many times before. As far as I can see, editors agreed just to break it for convenience at 395. Then someone else came along not having read that, and a few other editors started pretending 476/1453 is ancient "consensus". The bulk of the problematic editors here have unfortunately fixed the meaning of the word Roman to mean a pagan Republic based on Rome, basically betraying the bias in their own 'education' and culture. Anything other than that isn't True Roman for them. Unfortunately, as Filipe says, this is their own fantasy. Regarding the date 476 ... completely bad history, characteristic of the editors who advocate it. The good editors here are probably tired wasting hours of their time every time a few users fresh from watching Asterix turn up on the page saying they thought they heard somewhere that the Roman Empire fell when Romulus Augustulus was deposed. Goremite (talk) 05:54, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

You don't really know what had happened, do you? The reality is that some editors agreed just to break the article for convenience at 395, and then refer to Western Roman Empire and Byzantine Empire for the latter phrases. However unlike what you said, they never agreed on the end year shown in the infobox. The disagreements on the end year shown in the infobox continued to lead to a few edit wars, until a 476/1453 "consensus" was made.--209.90.146.105 (talk) 06:15, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Legacy according to National Geographic

We might note that "is" and "in" are indeed "native English forms" (in the words of footnote #25) -- presumably meaning that they evolved out of coastal West Germanic (and maybe a bit of Old Norse). As it happens, though, both words are present in similar forms in Latin and Medieval French. As such, it is difficult to prove that they would have evolved to their current forms if they had not been "reinforced" by the Latin and French words. National Geographic has taken some liberties here. But not necessarily outright license, poetic or otherwise. Jmacwiki (talk) 03:44, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't see why those forms would need to have been "reinforced" in English. They have clearly identifiable Old English precursors and are the same as in its Germanic sister languages which underwent far less influence from Latin or its Romanesque derivatives (e.g. Dutch is, in, German ist (surely not influenced by French est?), in). I don't think we need to speculate about what might or might not have been to be able to say that those forms are "native" to English. Iblardi (talk) 19:20, 1 July 2008 (UTC)