User talk:Jimbo Wales

Please help

I'm really, REALLY sorry to request your intervention in an arbitration case, I honestly believe the committee is making a mistake. I was recently topic banned from editing Scientology articles as a result of the second arbitration case on that subject, for edits I made before the first case. I've contributed numerous quality images to the project, shaped up several challenging articles, haven't violated the terms of or been blocked because of the first case, nor have I been involved in any edit warring so I really don't understand why a topic ban out of the blue is necessary.

Please also note that the arbcom imposed a blanket set of topic bans in this case, including editors who weren't involved in the first case and had even stopped editing prior to it. (For example the first case was May 2008, User:Orsini stopped editing in 10/2007, and was one of the recently topic banned.) Here's the case: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Scientology Anynobody(?) 02:16, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Just as a note, there's already a discussion about appealing this above, and I've e-mailed Jimbo about it. So he's on the case. That doesn't mean he'll decide to do anything, but he is aware of the issue. Phil Sandifer (talk) 06:00, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Thank you very much :) I'd actually started an appeal, then several others started their own appeals and to make a long story short this was the best way I could think of to not get lost in the growing discussion. Anynobody(?) 20:14, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Anyeverybody, where is that activity going on? I wouldn't want people to pour too much effort into disorganized processes or appealing things that are really beyond the scope of what I might consider. (What those boundaries might be are more or less unknown - appeals are traditionally very rare other than - for the most part - fairly easy ones for me to sort out.)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:05, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

D'oh!, It's right here, I should've included that too in my initial post. Anynobody(?) 23:13, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Wow, this made the Wall Street Journal and the discussion has expanded to multiple threads back at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification. The simplest way to sum up my, and several other editors, problem is that anyone using WP:RS,WP:V, etc. sources in a Scientology article will find themselves in content disputes with Scientologists.

The arbcom banning CoS IPs from editing makes sense because they spent 99% of their time whitewashing their articles. (I'd like to think we'd do the same whether it was them, Microsoft or the Pope.) However banning the people who were trying to keep the articles consistent with our standards is a mistake, made easy by the fact that to an outside observer any disagreements look like a standard content dispute. (By standard content dispute I mean a topic with lots of valid sources representing each side, like abortion.) In Scientology articles there are lots of valid sources, they just all tend to focus on negative aspects of it; for example Ellie Perkins and other deaths tied to Scientology. Or the current debate in France over whether it should be banned as reported by Time (magazine), 5/28/09 Scientology Trial in France: Can a Religion Be Banned?.

The reason I should NOT be banned is because I'd gladly continue to update Scientology articles with EITHER result simply because that's what our sources say. (If Time published an article called Why Scientology could save the world I'd cite it too regardless of how I personally felt about it just like I did when they published a BS article about the V-22 Osprey here:diff.) Anynobody(?) 04:59, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

re: "18-month Cyberstalking Scheme" allegations

Moved thread to WT:WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement. Griffinofwales2 (talk) 15:49, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Flagged Revisions update - requesting an update from Jimmy

Jimmy,

Can we get an update from the horse's mouth on where we are with Flagged Revisions for BLPs, and what the approximate ETA is? If you still have the authority to do policy by fiat, and you do believe in protecting BLPs, why can't we just get it done with? If there is some technical hitch we're waiting on Brion to sort out, we can still make it policy, and just leave it pending till Brion turns on the light switch. That would give people time to go over to that Sandbox wiki to experiment and learn, and to let us begin hashing out who gets "approver" status and how.

The recent disgusting fiasco at Catherine Crier was repugnant. Go read the history, and use your magic status to go look at the Oversighted revisions, then answer me: if you have the ability to unilaterally enforce policy, why haven't you yet in the wake of this kind of crap? How much longer are we going to have to wait? If this costs us a couple of old-school hardline "FREE WIKI" editors, good riddance. If it costs us 1,000: Good riddance. Some things are more important than others.

I'm being bold and formatting this to separate Jimmy's reply from others. I consider the section headings part of my comment proper; do not remove them unless you're Jimmy himself. rootology/equality (Signature time stamp removed by me under WP:IAR; this can be removed as a section by Jimmy if he does not want it here--I will restore any other removal, or Archival Bot removal; this was posted June the First.)

Jimmy's reply

• I fully support the implementation which garnered the consensus of the community and have asked that it be turned on as soon as possible. I feel that this implementation is not strong enough, but it is a good start. Once the tool is technically enabled, I think that policy will move over time to the appropriate balance, just as protection and semi-protection did. I believe it likely that I will be for a long time in favor of cautious expansion of the use of the tool for more articles - but I respect the concerns people have about it (the length of the backlog in German Wikipedia has been too often too long, in my opinion).

I think we are simply waiting now on Brion. He has suggested "before Wikimania". I hope that's right.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:35, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, Jimmy. I really hate to be a pest about it all, but someone has to be till it's live on every BLP. Thanks! I'll bother you again if there are no FRs live by day 1 of Wikimania. If not, we will have to start pressing/requiring for Sue to direct the tech team to prioritize this, from the Board level, or failing that, from other methods as required. rootology/equality 18:41, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Other comments

• see this for the latest from Brion. It's gone quiet again since (I've offered a hundred buck or so extra targetted donation to try and speed things up!) - My understanding of the status is that the community have clearly asked for (a trial of) flagged revisions, and it's yet to be implemented technically. Privatemusings (talk) 21:39, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

• It seems like a trial on BLP articles would be uncontroversial. RxS (talk) 22:13, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

• Whether it's uncontroversial or not, it's time it happened. لennavecia 02:39, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

FWIW, do we have any idea how many BLPs have been semi'ed in the past couple of months? Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:14, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Archives are kept at User:Lar/Liberal Semi, but it won't include any protected through RFPP or otherwise. Could possibly have a bot run a query. لennavecia 05:22, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Sounds like a start. I have also semi'ed quite a few spontaneously as well, which I could figure out. Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:10, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

• Thanks to Root for raising this, and to Jimbo for his thoughtful answer. The sooner the better on this. ++Lar: t/c 22:25, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

• I suppose you're referring to Wikipedia:Flagged protection and patrolled revisions. However, the trial from a policy standpoint does not make any special case for BLPs (although it acknowledges the issue), it's especially not a "trial for BLPs", whatever is meant by that, and should not be described as such. There is no 'lower bar' for flagged protection on blps, and even less so arbitrary flagged protection. But of course, in practice, more efforts will be done on patrolling BLPs than other articles (for the passive part of the implementation), and it gives more discretion for admins in the choice of the protection method and duration. And as usual, I ask to avoid hostile rhetorics, thank you. Cenarium (talk) 00:31, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

As a side note, if you're interested in patrolling BLPs, I suggest to target specific tagged recent changes at Special:Tags, for example categories removed or possible libel or vandalism. There's still room for creation of more specific filters aimed to detect BLP vandalism or libel (requests here), and in the longer term to find ways to combine this system with flagged (more specifically patrolled) revisions. Cenarium (talk) 00:47, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

• Echoing the "long overdue" sentiments. -->David Shankbone 14:27, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

For creating Wikipedia

Some potatoes

		The best sack of potatoes
		For creating Wikipedia

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Abce2 (talk • contribs)

Mmm. Potatoes. Tony Fox (arf!) 22:12, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

How about some chips..err..french fries. Thanks, SqueakBox talk 23:21, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

		To make the best chips
		For cooking up Wikipedia

Well you can't have chips without fish. Unfortunately I don't know of any other fish award, so this will have to do! Matthewedwards :  Chat  14:46, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

		The Wet Trout Award
		For coming up with Wikipedia

Should Jimbo have subpages?

I would hate to be Jimbo in the sense that I'm sure anytime he logs on it's like You have new messages because of the many messages he gets that are not relevant to him (like this one... Sorry, Mr. Wales!). Should we make a banner up top and divide it? I'm suggesting:

Thank-yous, smiles, WikiLove, WikiHugs, or other messages of admiration (something someone else thinks of)

Please note that Mr. Wales does not get involved in content dispute, blocks, or other... bla, bla.

Maybe Mr. Wales has some input? Thank you. —Mr. E. Sánchez (that's me!)^{What I Do} / _{What I Say} 21:15, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't mind it. I do think better warnings about what I'm likely to do or not might be helpful but I don't get that many messages here, and I like that people can post things here with a reasonably high assurance that I will see them. (Although sometimes I do miss things...) Subpages might give people a feeling that I'll see things, but unless I check them every day (more work!) I might not!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 07:52, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Maybe an editnotice then, to be placed at User talk:Jimbo Wales/Editnotice. Cenarium (talk) 20:03, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

So................wikipedia stores every editor information.

For how long? i'm talking about the information related to the location the editor was and another information that can be used in sockpuppet investigations. RB etihw atar (talk) 22:49, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

The GFDL, the license that all Wikipedia works are under at the moment, requires that all previous authors of the work must be attributed: Text of the GFDL. If an editor makes a contribution without logging in, their IP address will be used as their identification and stored permanently. For logged-in users, the Wikimedia Foundation say in their privacy policy that "When a page is edited by a logged-in editor, the server confidentially stores related IP information for a limited period of time. This information is automatically deleted after a set period. For editors who do not log in, the IP address used is publicly and permanently credited as the author of the edit." -- M2Ys4U ^(talk) 23:02, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Correct. At the moment, the IP information of logged-in users is stored for 90 days. Ironholds (talk) 14:50, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

The ip behind the user always was stored for about 2 or 3 months for use in WP:RCU, I don't know if this has changed or not. Thanks, SqueakBox talk 14:57, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Who is Jimmy Wales?

File:Wales on millionaire.jpg. Godfather of reggae indeed. ~fl 10:43, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I can imagine Jimmy playing the steel drums in a colourful shirt :b. Murgon (talk) 09:04, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

funny! ⊕Assasin Joe ^talk 14:20, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Forty wiki-dollars to the first photoshopped pic of that. EVula // talk // ☯ // 16:08, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

A new solution for BLP dilemmas?

Hi Jimbo, in two years of looking for solutions to the BLP issues have finally stumbled upon an idea that hasn't been raised before. Basically it's this:

Suppose we noindexed biographies of living persons, upon the subject's request.

This would require developer assistance, and require a bit of structure to make sure the ability doesn't get misused. An initial draft proposal is at my blog.[1] Am interested in your thoughts. Durova^Charge! 20:54, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

It does indeed sound ingenious [with an "o"]. -- Hoary (talk) 02:06, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

This is a great idea Durova! 98.210.241.176 (talk) 06:04, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

That sounds like an awful idea. What is the point of even having the biography if it isn't visible to search engines. You might as well just propose deleting it at the subject's request. Prodego ^talk 06:15, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I like Prodego's idea best. Let's go with that one. We'll call it... oh, Dead Tree Opt Out, or something like that. لennavecia 06:24, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Oy. That would be quite fun for us admins to get to deal with... Valley2city^‽ 06:28, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

One point of having a bio that's not visible to search engines is to satisfy the curiosity of people who don't always bother with search engines. -- Hoary (talk) 06:27, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

My point is that either an article is bad, and should be deleted, or good, and should be kept. If an article isn't good enough for Google it isn't good enough for Wikipedia either. Prodego ^talk 06:36, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Have to agree with Prodego here. Either it sucks and should be deleted (for whatever reason) or it should remain and be fully indexed. THAT SAID HOWEVER, we should be using flagged revisions / full protection of every single WP:BLP article on here. The solution ALREADY exists and why we aren't already using it is BEYOND ME. Wikipedia fail. JBsupreme (talk) 07:05, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

The problem is that crappy articles on non-notable people get kept because people don't understand or completely ignore the criteria. So we're stuck trying to protect and maintain more BLPs than we are capable of effectively doing. The Foundation and Jimbo are not concerned with the BLP problem because the Foundation enjoys the protection of Section 230. However, for those of us whose concern is with the vicitims of BLPs, it's not an easy job to clean this mess up, and we've got years of mess to clean up while new crap is constantly being dumped on us. There aren't enough editors with a grasp on the gravity of the situation, so it remains overwhelming. That said, Jimbo, for those of us who dedicate the vast majority of our time on Wikipedia to preventing and cleaning up the John Seigenthaler, Fuzzy Zoeller, Taner Akçam and Catherine Crier-type messes, what improvement to this entirely broken system can we look forward to, and when? Or are you and the Foundation just going to leave the problem festering indefinitely? لennavecia 14:10, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

By allowing search engines to index BLP, Wikipedia is immediately spreading libel and defamation around the world. And the problem is getting worse: Microsoft Bing is touting its prominent use of BLP as an advantage over Google! NOINDEX will largely prevent this.67.169.147.73 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:30, 5 June 2009 (UTC).

Quite right. And when the libel hits Google, it's picked up by mirrors. So even when we clean it up here, it can linger on other sites for weeks. لennavecia 15:04, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps combine this with Flagged Protection? When an article does not have flagged revision, tag it as NOINDEX, otherwise let search engines index the flagged revision. -- M2Ys4U ^(talk) 15:45, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

What really needs to be sorted out are the hard core minority of vociferous admins who are devising their own unique interpretations of BLP, such as out of sight special protection forums, dead tree notability or time limited notability, and 2 hour deletion discussions, and applying these across the pedia as if they were policy. MickMacNee (talk) 16:48, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Or we could clue in the people who think there is value in having poor-quality, unwatched biographies on non-notable or marginally notable living people, opening them up for real-world damage, because of some stupid tag line about anyone being able to edit. There are better things to do with one's time here than defend Wikipedia's imaginary right or obligation to host libel platforms of living people while simultaneously disrespecting a devaluing the work of those wasting their time tying to fix the problem. We wouldn't have to resort to liberal interpretations of policy and special forums if people would stop ignoring the problem and exhibit some commonsense and basic decency. لennavecia 17:16, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't usually get involved in these discussions, but I do want to know: why the hell hasn't something been done about the appalling state BLPs have been in for what would appear to be years? Skinny87 (talk) 17:35, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

A combination of 1) the WMF being unwilling or unable to intervene in content matters to not endanger their Section 230 legal immunity under the Telecommunications Act; 2) concentrated pushback from "open wiki" advocates who are more interested in the juvenile libertarian views that some aspects of this project were built around (this will be hardest to beat, as far as BLP goes); 3) apathy, as it's a constant struggle against #2. rootology (C)(T) 17:48, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

A lot has been done and is currently being done. Flagged versioning has been approved for all BLPs and is right now being worked on by the Foundation's software staff to be able to implement it. As for Section 230 legal immunity under the Telecommunications Act, the whole point of that section is to encourage content modification by promising such modification (such as deletion of potential libel) does not make the entity then responsible for content it did not modify or create. WAS 4.250 (talk) 18:19, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

GuestBook

Hey Jimbo you rock!! Can you sign my guestbook here's the link--P-Real DA deal (talk) 18:42, 5 June 2009 (UTC)