Talk:Augustine of Hippo

Archive 1 Archive 2

Junk

The "In the arts" section seems to be dross and offal.Lestrade (talk) 17:33, 12 May 2008 (UTC)Lestrade

Dross AND offal. Well excuse me, Mr. SAT.

Also, it would probably be better to say that Augustine promoted the Christian faith rather than the "Catholic" faith as the article states. Most Westerners (therefore English speakers) would interpret this as referring to Roman Catholicism, which did not exist as a separate church at this time in history. Yes, I know that Catholic is technically correct from an Orthodox Christian standpoint, but the majority of readers will not know that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.249.246.78 (talk) 04:14, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I think 'Catholic' is used here in opposition to the various Christian heresies that existed (Arianism, Pelagianism, Donatism). 'Christian' would in this case be too general. Maybe the term 'orthodox' could better be used in this sense. Iblardi (talk) 13:59, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Seconded. While the average person seems to take for granted that Western Christianity was a monolithic faith until the Protestant Reformation, in Augustine's time this was far from the case, with entire bishoprics, kingdoms and principalities under the sway of Arianism or other heretical churches. Also, wikipedia should not be dumbed down; using a less correct term on the rationale that to use the correct term would confuse "the average person" is an abomination. Wormwoodpoppies (talk) 00:17, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Orthodox were not separate at this time, though I suppose that there is nothing wrong with the generic term "Orthodox Christians" to describe the entire church. Do the Eastern Orthodox object to their being described as "Christians?" I did not know that. While Arianism held sway for awhile it did not "officially" survive Nicea. I don't think other beliefs eventually described as "heresies" ever got quite the traction that Arianism did. So the church was fairly monolithic in belief (multiple patriarchs) until the 800 breakup. Even that was governmental/political, not really belief-oriented.

When I describe the American Democratic Pary, I describe them as favoring Obama. I do not allow for the minority who still support Clinton or some other candidate. It's becoming a little too PC to describe a group based on its minorities instead of what most of its adherents subscribe to. Some Americans support the American Nazi Party I suppose but I wouldn't waste a lot of space trying to contort the article on the United States to fit that particular group to "ensure they weren't overlooked." Student7 (talk) 12:27, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Name in Greek

Is there any particular reason to include this in the lead? The Latin makes sense, as it was his language, and is the language of the Western Church. But he is not one of the four Eastern doctors, my copy of Confessions says he was not fluent in Greek, he did not write in Greek, and he spent his time in Italy and North Africa. Any objections if I remove his name in Greek from the lead? Carl.bunderson (talk) 19:05, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Fine with me. He's a Latin daddy-o  ;-> Thanks. HG | Talk 19:51, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Done :) Carl.bunderson (talk) 20:00, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism: fake claims of 'Berber' ancestry

I've never looked at this page, but I do look at the Tertullian page. That had a strange entry that he was 'Berber', backed up by strange references. Now I know for a fact that there is no evidence of this for Tertullian at all. Now, on this page, I see precisely the same intrusion here, backed by a long list of general references, many of them the same. Yet as far as I know again there is no evidence of this for Augustine. I think we have a vandal at work, probably on all pages by ancient authors of North Africa (I've just walked around all those I could think of, and found exactly that). I've therefore deleted the bogus claim and its bogus references. No doubt at least some of these Romans did have Berber connections, but until we have proper referenced evidence of this, and in view of the actions of the vandal, I think that we must treat all such stuff with suspicion. Roger Pearse 09:48, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

FWIW, it isn't totally bogus on this page. The Oxford World Classics edition of Confessions, has in a note on page xiii "Her name, spelt by Augustine Monnica, is probably Berber, and perhaps both parents were ethnically Berber." Obviously this is a tentative suggestion in a footnote, but it at least shows that Augustine as a Berber isn't total bs. Carl.bunderson (talk) 19:23, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Roger Pearse removed the following source (quotation from encyclopedia Americana) in many article (Augustine, Apuleius, ... ): "Berbers : ... The best known of them were the Roman author Apuleius, the Roman emperor Septimius Severus, and St. Augustine, whose mother was a Berber". However, even if you dont have access to Encyclopedia Americana, it is very easy to check that the source is perfectly valid. Just type between quotations marks "Augustine, whose mother was a Berber" in Google books and you will find it in page 569, v.3... So Roger Pears is the vandal.--Frenchman17 (talk) 18:47, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Do not call someone who took the time to discuss this on the talk page a vandal. You created your account simply in reaction to this, and will probably contribute nothing more to WP. He had a reasonable question and addressed it on the talk page. You have done a good job addressing his questions, but you may not in good faith call him a vandal. Carl.bunderson (talk) 18:54, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok. Sorry for that... But I think we should always discuss before removing anything from articles especially when valid sources are specified.--Frenchman17 (talk) 19:08, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Well it's all straightened out now, thank you for providing all the sources you did. WE all got through it using the talk page. Carl.bunderson (talk) 19:16, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I think that's very unfair. Pearse used the word "vandalism" first, and repeatedly. See Talk:North Africa during the Classical Period#Berber vandalism, noting particularly the date and time. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 22:21, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Pearse made an accusation of vandalism against an unknown user from the past, who seems not to have discussed the edits on the talk page, whereas an entirely new user, Frenchman, accused a well-established editor who had discussed the issue on the talk page of vandalism. They are entirely different scenarios. And Sam, you need to learn how use talk page discussions. You need to properly indent and place your posts for the ease of anyone who might read the talk page. Carl.bunderson (talk) 23:48, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with you on all points. However, there is no benefit in continuing this sterile argument. I'd be interested in what Roger Pearse has to say now. SamuelTheGhost (talk) 09:43, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks everyone for the comments! I did try to do the right thing here. It sounds as if we *do* have some stuff for Monica being Berber, with refs, so that's fine; let's have them in this article. As I said above, what I found on a load of pages was unreferenced claims of Berber connections. Some of them I knew to be nonsense. So I asked myself why would someone do this? I inferred, rightly or wrongly that this was junk by someone interested in pushing some pro-berber agenda (never heard of such an agenda, but why else would someone do such a thing?) So I pruned the lot as vandalism. If we do find some evidence for some connections -- and why shouldn't there be? -- then let's reinclude it. Roger Pearse (talk) 12:05, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Berber ancestry

Sorry but it is NOT bogus at all...

A lot of french historians internationally renowned like Henri Irénée Marrou, Étienne Gilson, Fernand Braudel, Louis Chevalier and many others specialist of Roman Africa like Claude Lepelley, Serge Lancel, André Berthier etc say he was berber. The same for many famous french theologians like Guy Bedouelle...

Some quotations (sorry they are in french - I can translate them if necessary):

• Henri Irénée Marrou : "Théologien, j'ai appris de mon maître saint Augustin, ce Berbère, que toutes les nations qui se manifestent dans l'histoire sont nécessairement un mélange, pour nous inextricable, de Cité du Bien et de Cité du Mal." (Henri Irénée Marrou, Crise de notre temps et réflexion chrétienne de 1930 à 1975, éd. Beauchesne, 1978, p. 177)

• Étienne Gilson : "Presque tous les Pères latins sont des Africains. Tertullien de Carthage, le Numide Arnobe de Sicca et son élève Lactance, saint Cyprien de Carthage, Victorinus l'Africain, le Berbère saint Augustin, bref toute cette glorieuse tête de colonne de la patristique latine [...], que de dons splendides de l'Afrique à l'Eglise de Rome pendant que celle-ci n'avait encore à mettre en balance que saint Ambroise et saint Jérôme !" (Étienne Gilson, Le philosophe et la théologie (1960), éd. Vrin, 2005, p. 175-176)

This book was translated in english :

• Etienne Gilson : "Nearly all the Latin Fathers are Africans - Tertullian of Carthage, the Numid Arnobius of Sicca and his pupil Lactantius, Saint Cyprian of Carthage, the African Marius Victorinus, the Berber Saint Augustine, in short, all this glorious vanguard of Latin patristic culture. What splendid gifts these were from Africa to the Church of Rome while the latter had only the works of Saint Ambrose and of Saint Jerome to put in the Balance ! " (Etienne Gilson, The Philosopher and Theology (1960)], Random House New York, 1962, pp.195-196 )

• Louis Chevalier : "Les fondateurs de la première littérature chrétienne ont été Tertullien et ce pur berbère Saint-Augustin" ( Louis Chevalier, Le problème démographique nord-africain (1947),Presses universitaires de France, 1947, p. 194)

• Charles Nicolle : "Il a fallu des siècles pour que l'Afrique romaine offre à l'humanité un Apulée, un saint Augustin et un Septime Sévère; les deux premiers de sang berbère", (Charles Nicolle, Biologie de l'invention (1932), Alcan, 1932, p. 25)

• Guy Bedouelle : "But it was the African, the Berber Augustine, bishop of Hippo ...", (Guy Bedouelle, The History of the Church, Continuum International Publishing Group, 2003, p.52)

• Fernand Braudel, probably the most renowned french historian, :"Berbère, né en 354 à Tagaste, en Africa, il mourra évêque d'Hippone en 430..." (Fernand Braudel, Grammaire des civilisations (1963), Flammarion, 2008, p. 453)

Translated in english in 1993 :

• Fernand Braudel :"A Berber, born in 354 at Thagaste (now Souk-Ahras) in Africa, he died Bishop of Hippo..." (Fernand Braudel, A History of Civilizations , Penguin , 1995, p. 335) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Frenchman17 (talk • contribs) 08:54, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

• Grand Larousse encyclopédique : "Augustin, one of the most famous Fathers of the Church, was of Berber descent.", (Grand Larousse encyclopédique, Librairie Larousse, 1960, vol. 1, Afrique romaine, p. 144) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Frenchman17 (talk • contribs) 09:32, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

etc

About non French authors (English, German...) I am not a specialist (but Roman Africa has not been studied a lot by english authors) but I can say that many famous authors like Norman Cantor, Irving Hexham, Friedrich Heer etc and even Encyclopedia Americana say he was berber

• Friedrich Heer : "Nor was it coincidental that Thomas resurrected Tertullian the Berber in an attempt to subdue that other Berber, Augustine...", (Friedrich Heer, The Intellectual History of Europe, Weidenfeld & Nicolson, 1966, p.153

• Norman Cantor : "Augustine was an outsider - a native North African whose family was not Roman but Berber" (Norman Cantor, The Civilization of the Middle Ages, Harper, 1993, p. 74)

• Martin Evans, Professor in Contemporary European History, at University of Portsmouth, specialist of Algeria : "Son of a Berber mother, the deeply commited Monica", (Martin Evans & John Phillips, Algeria, Yale University Press, 2007 ,p.15)

• Donald Burt, O.S.A., Ph.D of Villanova University : "Monica his mother was almost certainly a Berber and his father was probably a mixture of Berber and Roman ancestry" ( Saint Augustine: His Life and Times etc

• Margaret R. Miles, Dean of the Graduate Theological Union, Berkeley : "Monica : Mother of Augustine. A Berber North African woman, Monica is known to us only in the writings of her eldest son, Augustine...", (Everett Ferguson, Encyclopedia of Early Christianity, 1998, p.776)

• Encyclopedia Americana : "Berbers : ... The best known of them were the Roman author Apuleius, the Roman emperor Septimius Severus, and St. Augustine whose mother was a Berber" (Encyclopedia Americana, Scholastic Library Publishing, 2005, v.3, p.569 )

• Irving Hexham, professor of Religious Studies at the University of Calgary : "Augustine was of Berber descent...", (Concise Dictionary of Religion, Regent College Press, Vancouver, 1993, p.26)

I could fill the page with dozens of quotations but I dont think it is necessary ...--Frenchman17 (talk) 13:18, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Seems pretty persuasive. See also: "A Note on the Berber background in the life of Augustine" by Maurice Frost, Journal of Theological Studies 1942 XLIII(171-172):188-194 by Oxford University Press. Thanks. HG | Talk 03:50, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

No, this sounds good to me too. Include it. But one thought; how on earth could anyone now *know* whether Augustine was Berber. They can't DNA him! So how can they know? Note that one of the refs is rather more cautious. So... is something a bit whiffy here? Perhaps best to say that some scholars have said that he was Berber, and footnote who? Roger Pearse (talk) 12:08, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

There was no DNA test neither to "know" that Julius Caesar was Roman, Alexander the Great was Greek ans so on ... So it is the same for all famous people. Am I 100 % sure that my father who died 10 years ago was my real father. Of course not. Concerning Augustine there are many clues about his native origin like her mothers name Monnica, his fathername Aurelius which strongly suggests that his family were among the many who were enfranchised by the famous edict of Caracalla of 212, whereby almost all the freemen of the Empire became Roman citizens, his birthplace Thagaste where the population was no doubt mostly of Berber stock and so on. --90.28.232.72 (talk) 16:23, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Calling Mary the "Mother of God"

The historian, Philip Schaff says:

"He also contributed to promote, at least in his later writings, the Catholic faith of miracles, and the worship of Mary; though he exempts the Virgin only from actual sin, not from original, and, with all his reverence for her, never calls her mother of God."- History of the Christian Church, vol 3, chap 10, section 180, 6th paragraph.

Schaff is generally regarded as a very scholarly and unbiased historian, however, he was writing over a century ago. Is there any documentary evidence that Augustine ever used the phrase "mother of God" of Mary? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blkgardner (talk • contribs) 18:28, 25 October 2008 (UTC) --Blkgardner (talk) 18:36, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Bizarre religion?

"During this time, Augustine was a devout follower of Manichaeism, a religion based on many tradtions and strange fantasies. It is curious that an intelligent man such as Augustine would follow a religion as bizarre as Manichaeism" -- um any religion is bound to be "bizarre" to someone? Mvuijlst (talk) 19:51, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that is totally inappropriate tone for this article. I checked out the source on that paragraph, and it is a personal website. It is referenced, but it among its sources is WP. So, that seems to me to fail the RS req's, so I removed any dubious material attached to that source, as well as the refs. Carl.bunderson (talk) 21:19, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I would like to clear up one thing that is constantly wrong

Augustine did not start of Catholic. He was a Pagan like his father Patricius and later went to Manichaeism in his schooling. Then when he went to Rome and Milan in Italy he was temped to convert to Christianity, but he didn't. He then went to Neoplatonism and finaly, before he left Italy to go back to his homeland, he met Ambrose. Then he converted to Christianity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.39.2.35 (talk) 02:55, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Papal Supremacy

Augustine (despite the reference #45) did NOT hold that the Pope had a "Supreme Jurisdiction" over the church, as in the modern meaning of "Papal Supremacy". "Optaremus", a reply by the African Bishops to a "ruling" by the Pope, is quite pointed, even insulting, in telling the Pope to stay out of the affairs of other provinces. This makes it clear that the Pope's "supremacy" is not one of jurisdiction, but rather a primacy of honour. This is even more pointed when viewed against his ecclesiology as argued against the Donatists.

The reference given is also inaccurate; the correct reference is Letter #43, chapter 3, para. 7. This letter is aimed at schismatic Donatists, and the quoted reference speaks of Rome "in which the supremacy OF AN apostolic chair had always flourished" (NOT "supremacy over all other apostolic chairs...). The meaning is clear in context; that Rome had never lapsed into schism or heresy, but had maintained the apostolic faith supreme, over error. This is but one of many reasons why Rome merits primacy of honour, and rightly deserves to be listened to and appealed to as a respected and persuasive authority; but never does Augustine extend this to a jurisdictional authority. However honoured and persuasive the opinion of the Pope might be, outside his own See it is never more than an opinion. Any other interpretation, against the whole context of Augustine's Eccesiology, is a later Roman interpretation and in conflict with the writings of the Great Doctor himself.

The Christian Church today would do well to live out his vision of the Church as "a Body that builds itself up in Love". This would mean to encourage inter-communion (the refusal of inter-communion is the Great Sin against the Holy Spirit, according to Augustine's anti-Donatist writings), and to recognise the authority of each congregation to be either an independent jurisdiction, or (preferably) to unite into provinces or dioceses for mutual correction and support. But at all times, this must be a voluntary jurisdiction, in Love.

58.178.76.5 (talk) 03:24, 16 November 2008 (UTC) gnomine

Race

This site states that Augustine was a black african, rather than semitic north african: http://www.africanamericans.com/BlackSaints.htm . Wikipedia doesn't seem to state race either way, but the image is clearly not of an black african. Why is this.. the roof of this court is too high to be yours (talk) 06:54, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, it is not unlike this one, which is the oldest known portrait. If this is really what the site implies, it must be a fringe view. Insofar as scholarship has dealt with the issue of Augustine's ancestry, the main theory seems to be that, through his mother, he was probably (partially) 'Berber' or something closely related; this is at least what is stated by the sources mentioned in the article. There is no hint at sub-Saharan roots any more than is the case with other Roman Africans. Iblardi (talk) 17:46, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

That we could get a "What race was he?" discussion here was already apparent when the Category: African born philosophers was merged into the Category: African philosophers. I don't know if there is such a thing as 'African philosophy'. Considering that the Philosophy article already includes a subsection Persian philosophy, that would be imaginable, but the only distinction of traditions of philosophy that would find general acceptance afaik is the one between Western and Eastern philosophy. Alternative descriptions would be European and Asian philosophy, and then you would have to say that Augustine is an European philosopher. Not only that, but he decisively influences Western philosophy. So I guess we would need to revise the decision to merge the categories.

However, geographical attributes aren't appropriate to describe the various traditions of philosophy. I am not familiar enough with Eastern Philosophy, but Western Philosophy at least has universal pretension. Theories of a good life, theories of justice, theories of cognition and that all are though to be applicable to any person in the world, regardless of whether he/she comes from Europa, Africa or Asia. In one introduction I read this distinction of philosophy in various 'philosophies' is negatively compared to chemistry. You don't have different concepts of H₂O for Europe and Asia neither.

And anyway, as far as I know, Augustine's mother was in fact of Berber origin. Augustine's skin colour would have been rather dark, so, if he by some divine intervention miraculously would appear in the streets of the Bronx, he would quite likely be considered 'black'. But this is simply the result of those stupid categories of race. There are verbatim a 'black and white scheme', and don't leave any room at all for the wide range of skin colours that can be observed phenomenologically. Still, the Afrocentrists, who took up that category of a 'Black Race' positively, should be talking about a black Augustine instead of black Socrates (anyone read Black Athena revisited here?); that would imho be sustainable. Zara1709 (talk) 12:46, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Here are some pictures of famous French people of berber origin. French politician Arnaud Montebourg whose mother is Berber [1]. Zinedine Zidane 100% Berber, the most famous football player [2]. Another famous football player is Karim Benzema 100% Berber [3]. So they even do not look "Mediterranean" but almost "Nordic" .--90.28.232.72 (talk) 16:05, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

City of God not the church

I'm pretty sure the City of God is not the church and that in his book he declares that it is impossible to know who belongs to the city of god 'on pilgrimage'. I think the city of god is those who do not have pride. This relates to one of the first sentences in this wiki article. Can someone with more knowledge of this clarify. 129.67.160.30 (talk) 22:53, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

The sentence in question is backed up by a RS, but I will clarify it more on the basis of a work to which I have access. It may be that what you said is true, but we need a reliable source to say it before we can include it in the article. Thanks for pointing this out. Carl.bunderson (talk) 23:32, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Reclaim original content

On July 6, 2007, someone removed content they thought was copied from biographylist.com. However, that site is fraudulent and copies text from around the web and claims it as its own. This isn't the only article in which it has taken Wikipedia material and claimed it as its own. This material should be reclaimed and everyone should be aware that that website is not legitimate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.245.42.233 (talk) 03:25, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Edits by AwesomeMachine

I'm sure these edits were well intended, but they're almost entirely inappropriate. Incorporating the words "Roman Catholic(ism)" at every conceivable opportunity – 14 times in total, including 6 times in a single paragraph – is gratuitous, as is "Augustine was Catholic, and had never heard of Protestantism". "He successfully rebutted all heresies against Mother Church" is a blatant violation of the neutral point of view policy. All these changes seem intended to represent Augustine as in line with modern Catholicism and to disparage other Christians who regard him as authoritative.

Some of the factual changes are dubious – saying he was "one of the most important figures in the formation of Western Civilization" makes it sound as though Western civilization didn't exist prior to him. Most of the other additions are redundant. The previous version already said he was "Bishop of Hippo Regius", so we don't need to restate that he was a priest and bishop. It already said he was a saint, so we don't need to say that he's known as "Saint Augustine" (this change also altered a statement attributed to a specific source – was the source consulted?). The new sentence about The City of God is virtually a paraphrase of the one it was placed in front of. EALacey (talk) 09:18, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

:Is there anything we need to incorporate from his edit, or should we just revert it? It was so large, and looked like he added sources, that in glancing over it the only thing I noticed that made me uncomfortable was changing from St Austin to Saint Augustine. That definitely needs to be changed back. The NPOV things obviously need to be removed. So, yeah, would it just be better to revert wholesale? Carl.bunderson (talk) 22:46, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Heh, guess I should have looked at the article before posting that. Carl.bunderson (talk) 22:49, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Deletion January 20th

Deleted the following:

"In the week following her comments, she was corrected by numerous American bishops, such as Archbishop Charles J. Chaput of Denver, who wrote: "In the absence of modern medical knowledge, some of the Early Fathers held that abortion was homicide; others that it was tantamount to homicide; and various scholars theorized about when and how the unborn child might be animated or "ensouled." But none diminished the unique evil of abortion as an attack on life itself...""

I see no reason for this in an article about St. Augustine except to fuel a debate where it is not appropriate. It is fine to mention how Pelosi quoted Augustine in favor of her point of view, but continuing to show the reaction of unrelated church figures is unnecessary. 72.86.90.49 (talk) 05:44, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

I think some, if not all, of the content removed from this section ought to be restored. It was originally added entirely because of the whole Pelosi thing. The fact that it came to light to the general public because of her comments is relevant for this reason. Carl.bunderson (talk) 05:56, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

I've restored it. Carl.bunderson (talk) 23:59, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

"Was corrected" is POV; few bishops are Augustine scholars, and the claim that none of the Church Fathers "diminished the unique evil of abortion" is weasel-wording: who in the fifth century asserted the unique evil of abortion? So this is an assertion that Augustine did not contradict what nobody said; by that reasoning the bishops could have had him defending the rights of dolphins, because he did not diminish them. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:59, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Free will

The article says the following: "The Roman Catholic Church considers Augustine's teaching to be consistent with free will.[44]"

This is not a judgment exclusive to the RCC, besides the fact that the article quotes the Old Catholic Encyclopedia. It is a judgment corroborated by much mainstream scholarship. See, for instance, the essay on Augustine and free will by Eleonore Stump in the Cambridge Companion to Augustine:

http://books.google.com/books?id=tFyhGvLRyI0C&pg=PA124&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=0_0

Thanks!