User talk:Jimbo Wales

(Manual archive list)

No ArbCom-like body for NPOV

I see everyone is preoccupied with the FBI thing, and rightly so. I can wait weeks for a reply from Jimbo (I know scores of folks will chip in earlier.. thanks, but I will wait for a reply from Jimbo). Here's my question: The Five Pillars stress NPOV, but there is absolutely no arbCom-like body monitoring or guaranteeing it. There is zero-point-zero in the structure of Wikipedia to protect it. Does this mean that structurally, Wikipedia flatly does not value NPOV (except as a recruiting slogan, that is not honored by reality or by concrete actions)? Note here I am not saying that Wikipedians do not value NPOV; I'm saying that Wikipedia does zero-point-zero to back up its altruistic talk regarding NPOV. Or is altruism too time-consuming, or...? [I suppose the standard reply is "no hierarchies", but that idea is not given among the five pillars, nor implied by them. Does it trump them? Besides, ArbCom is a hierarchy. Sigh.] Thanks. • Ling.Nut 03:18, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

There is an NPOV noticeboard... -- ChrisO (talk) 08:14, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

• A step or layer in the process. There are many layers between an article and ArbCom, but eventually there is a binding ArbCom (for behavioral problems only). Thanks! • Ling.Nut 08:46, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

It would be difficult to envision a body that could "declare NPOV" on a subject or its article; NPOV is an evolutionary process, one which necessarily is never exactly defined. NPOV should be the result if all the policies and guidelines (and those rules that are inviolate) are followed by all the participants, and thus the correct blend of reliable sources are accurately reported in the most neutral language. Since NPOV may be invalidated by the misuse of policy, guideline and practice, it is the various methods of dispute resolution (including, ultimately, ArbCom) in respect of policy violation that best "repairs" NPOV. At the same time, it should be noted that the policies and guidelines are open to be varied, by consensus, so the NPOV provided on a subject article may alter to reflect the latest understanding of the application of policy. Again, when new sources are found that reflect a differing viewpoint this may also change the definition of NPOV. Under the circumstances, the determination of NPOV is best left to the body of editors working together in a collegiate and respectful manner and finding a consensus on how current policy is best reflected within the article according to the sources available. I doubt if any ArbCom type body could fulfil that function. My opinion, anyway, Y(&J)MMV. LessHeard vanU (talk) 12:56, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

I am strongly in favour of an elected body to reflect on and decide changes to policies and processes, and give general leadership. However, any structured body cannot possibly deal with content disputes on individual articles. We've got waaay too many - and unless the group freezes the article on one state, any declaration of what's NPOV wouldn't last a week. It can't work.--Scott Mac 13:13, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

• The "too many articles" is not a problem. ArbCom rejects cases; the POV ArbCom could do the same with most cases that are put in their in-box. Only intractable cases or long-running, bitter edit wars need apply. As for "Any declaration of what POV wouldn't last a week", they would set topic-specific guidelines regarding key principles of the specific cases or area, and then we have this thing called Pending Changes (hallelujah!!!). "The determination of NPOV is best left to the body of editors working together in a collegiate and respectful manner" and yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus.• Ling.Nut 00:06, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
  • It simply doesn't upscale. There are hundreds, if not tens of thousands, of articles that have "intractable cases or long-running, bitter edit wars". An elected committee could only get bogged down in a dozen a month, at most. As for "pending changes", I don't see how that helps. Are the committee going to review each change before approval? And what happens if a month after the committee settle a dispute, an editor re-writes the articles claiming "new developments" or a new source. Does the article get referred back to the committee. This simply is unworkable.--Scott Mac 00:14, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
    • The current situation is unworkable; we close our eyes every day, smile, and pretend that it works. In these areas, Wikipedia's content is a joke. Moreover, these things account for a vast accumulation of wasted editor/admin hours, scores of burned-out Wikipedians, etc. The current situation is unworkable. If a single body won't do the trick, then find a way to apply more top-down oversight to the problem. Or smile and accept that these articles are, and always will be, crap – and that endless wasted hours and burned out Wikipedians is just okey-dokey peachey keen neato, because hey, we're Wikipedia, and abusing our editors and neglecting our content is just what we do around here. • Ling.Nut 00:30, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
      • Actually, the current system does work. Wikipedia isn't blowing up. Now, granted, you are correct that many articles are poor, and some Wikipedians burn out and leave. There may well be better ways of doing it, I just can't think of any. If you come up with any workable improvements, I'm sure people will listen. As for "abusing editors", last time I looked, few nations have made editing Wikipedia compulsory, or finding another hobby a criminal offence. I suspect most editors leave because of real world reasons, or other interests, and not so much to do with internal Wikipedia stuff.--Scott Mac 01:04, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
• (undent) No, it doesn't work. It's facile to mention "blowing up"; I detailed the specific ways in which it doesn't work. Your shrug regarding the implicit abuse of editors is particularly uncaring; I suppose you have the attitude "Eh, so some burn out? Who cares? We can get more." The "come up with a better paln" tak, which I had been waiting for, is at best burying your head in the sand; at worst, evasive. I refer you to my original points:

1. There is no concrete, structural, put it in my hand so I can see it rather than yapping about it evidence that Wikipedia (as opposed to Wikipedians) cares about the NPOV of its content. WP:NPOV is, functionally, merely a recruiting slogan.
2. There is no concrete, structural evidence that Wikipedia cares about Wikipedians, or else it would take concrete steps to address the problem. It shares your "screw them, they are replaceable" attitude.
3. No concrete, demonstrable evidence that Wikipedia cares about anything at all, other than continuing to exist as an organization, and continuing to recruit new editors. • Ling.Nut 02:44, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

• One of the things we could do is topic ban activist editors—editors who may not be single-purpose accounts, but who have clearly crossed the line into activism. We wouldn't need to set up any additional structure; it's something that could be determined by consensus at AN/I, or by admins, in the same way that disruption is currently identified, with the benefit of the doubt on the editor's side, so that we'd only be dealing with the worst cases. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 03:58, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Bureaucracy for the sake of bureaucracy is all this is. For real change forget top-down bureaucracy and elected committees. Democracy and bureaucracy suck in a situation like this, and really we dont subscribe in Wikipedia to either and generally abhore the second. What may be needed is for each wikiproject to declare an "arbitrator", someone from the wikiproject who is generally considered the most knowledgeable in the subject. A dispute on NPOV or any content dispute/edit war in any article would, hopefully before it gets heated, be given to the arbitrator to listen to both sides and render a binding final decision. Of course I can flesh it out quite easily to handle any situation, that is not needed to be done here though. The point is we need some more dictators who simply say ENOUGH this is how it is going to be no more arguing. And admins need to understand to simply enforce these rulings and place blocks on those that dont adhere instead of substituting their own non-informed opinions. Instead of bureaucracy and endless debates, we nip the problem at the source, end these endless debates and votes! which get ignored by the losing party anyways who then ignore consensus and get away with it because they dont agree with it and admins are not willing to simply declare a consensus in cases of five against two or eight against three.Camelbinky (talk) 04:50, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that would work, CB, because the people involved in the wikiprojects have views on the issues themselves. What's needed to judge neutrality is someone who's not involved, and that often means not knowledgeable, so to have a content arbiter you'd need to find someone able and willing (two separate issues) to immerse themselves in a topic they're not familiar with, to judge what the educated man in the street might feel was neutral. It would be very difficult to find such people, because it would be so time-consuming. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 04:54, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I know it probably cant work if implemented (though I wish it could be somehow given a trial run and problems fleshed out, I would love to see how it turned out in a real situation). But I think what you say about the average educated man on the street being the model for NPOV is interesting, though I have some questions about it. Do we really want "Joe the Plumber" being our NPOV-decider-model on a topic of physics or someone who a "majority" of the wikiproject has agreed knows his/her stuff? I can see them having their own POV, especially regarding insertion of religious material and in that case yes Joe might be more neutral (or have an equally opposing POV). In the end I think most content disputes that result from POV pushing is not about grand ideology and equal time in an article. I think it is usually the minor "lame" disputes over a word or sentence that could be decided quite easily though drags on FOREVER because one or two editors refuse to listen to the majority and no one steps in to enfore majority decisions (majority doesnt always rule on Wikipedia and I understand that). Is there any way you can think of that perhaps we can end endless debates prior to them having to get out of hand? Other than admins with spines of steel who are willing to swoop in declare a "winner" and block those that keep ignoring consensus. Where oh where are you super admin?Camelbinky (talk) 05:10, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

I do see the neutral stance as the educated Man on the Clapham Omnibus perspective, with the emphasis on "educated" in the sense of willing to inform himself before judging it. Admins do often act as you're describing, CB, when things get out of hand, but most hesitate to do it on very contentious issues, where they're most needed, because the result is often vilification. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 05:35, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

The "man on the Clapham Omnibus" would likely need 5 years of single-minded study to have an sufficiently informed opinion on superstring theory, or the origin of birds, or the documentary hypothesis, or Nostratic languages. The purpose of a general purpose encyclopedia is to make a condensed form the knowledge available to the bussist. It cannot teach him all the background and the methods about how to arrive at the knowledge. True Renaissance men are, for the better or the worse, relegated to the renaissance, not a London omnibus. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 11:27, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

No, you cannot topic ban some certain "activist editors". You just will not get consensus. I believe you've seen this case. The user is not even a single purpose account, she is a single article account, and she is much, much more than just an "activist editor". I proposed to ban her on this article she was pushing to promote so hard for only a month. And what result did I get? None! The thread was archived with no even warning. I am 100% sure, that if I did 20% of what she did, I would have been banned for good. Unfair? Extremely! Surprising? Not at all (just look at the world map). --Mbz1 (talk) 04:13, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

It's something we could cautiously explore, and my thinking is really to leave it only for the most obvious cases, where an editor's work has clearly crossed the line from "I'm interested in this and want others to know about it too" into using Wikipedia to promote an agenda. At present, there's nothing we can do about such editors unless they cross into disruption, yet they really are very problematic. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 04:50, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

• I sympathize with SV's suggestion, but I am only one editor.
• Let me speak very concretely about what would make me happy with Wikipedia, Jimbo, the Board, and the Universe in general. I wouldn't want any of the above-named bigwigs to force a solution on the community. What I would be happy to see is this:
• The above-named bigwigs get together and issue a joint statement on the single most appropriate forum, saying something like "<Insert one or two feel-good sentences here>. We are concerned about issues that spring directly from the principle of WP:NPOV as laid out in the Five Pillars: The fact that edit warring reduces important articles to a spaghetti-like point-counterpoint mess, the tremendous amount of time and energy spent by Good Faith editors dealing with this problem, and the concurrent possibility of editor burnout, exhaustion and retirement. We don't dictate to the community etc., so we are asking the entire community of Wikipedia editors to consider two questions: 1) Is there a community-wide solution to the problem of NPOV edit warring that is superior to the solutions we currently have in place 2) If not, then is there a community-wide solution to the results of this problem that is superior to what we now have in place. We solicit thoughtful input from all valued editors on this topic, and place the full support of our collective approval behind this initiative. Signed, <insert names>." Then let the Wikipedia community gnaw at each others' ankles for six months or so. Maybe a real solution will emerge. If not, then I will at least feel that they care. • Ling.Nut 05:03, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, I'd like to point out that the 5P has nothing to do with WP:NPOV other than that the 5P summarizes the policy, which is all the 5P does, it summarizes our collective policies and purpose. Policies are generally older than the Pillars and are not dictated by the 5P, the 5P flow FROM the policies, not the other way around. Just a minor point, but quite an important one, for future reference I'd drop all reference of the 5P and stick with talking about the POLICY itself.Camelbinky (talk) 05:16, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

• @SV. here's one more example of how banning some certain editors fails:user:vexorg. Here are only three examples from the user edit history: removing a note that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is anti-semitic; arguing that the "Zionist Occupation Government" conspiracy isn't anti-Semitic; Inserting BLP on Tony Blair and so on, and so on, and so on. Should have been that user banned on Wikipedia? Of course they should have been, except they were not. They are running free and go on with their absurd editing, but no worries I was topic banned, so Wikipedia is safe.--Mbz1 (talk) 05:16, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

I am currently in the sky is falling! mode, and fear a future where more editors will learn how to game the system: always be civil; use certain key phrases in edit summaries; refer to sources; claim those sources trump others. Just two or three such editors with an interest in a certain POV can turn a series of articles into undue promotions that contradict mainstream views, and there is no way that normal editors can counter them. Even if not learned consciously, POV editors will acquire the WP:CPUSH techniques from a process like natural selection, whereby obviously misbehaving editors will be blocked, leaving only the polite but persistent POV pushers. Some techniques to assist article stability may become necessary, even if it involves locking the "wrong version" of an article for, say, two months at a time (not actual protection, but some system to strictly enforce an article POV that has been declared the temporary winner, even if by a coin toss). Stability, even of the wrong version, may be much more helpful in retaining good editors who can at least take a break knowing either that their version is reasonably safe, or that the wrong version cannot be currently challenged. This outrageous scheme would not apply to poorly-sourced negativity in BLPs or cases involving real-world issues like libel. Johnuniq (talk) 07:15, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

• The solution is quite simple: develop a "science of NPOV issues", with the issues sub-divided into tangible areas, where evidence can be gathered to "prove" what NPOV means in each area. Currently, the feelings about NPOV sound like, "We will never be able to build a bridge to safely cross the river" because of too much worrying: what about having a foot-race of 2 million runners cross the bridge, and if a terrorist detonates a bomb..., so let's do nothing. No, instead, set priorities about what are the real problems and start building smaller prototype bridges, to clarify how NPOV is determined for a smaller topic. There are lots of data sets to support analysis of NPOV: just go to Google and key "Albert Einstein" and wait for the suggested search-categories: those are some sub-topics to emphasize. Talk about "Albert Einstein theories" or "Albert Einstein College of Medicine" as suggested by Google, but anyone flooding articles with "Einstein footballer scores" has clearly violated the balance of NPOV.
  Again, treat the problem as a "science of NPOV issues" rather than let people's wild opinions rule what should be placed in articles. If Google gives 5 search-categories to a topic, then consider creating 5 separate articles, rather than some superstitious idea that people are "POV-forking" to have 5 articles, as if they speak with "forked tongue" or some other wild idea to find tricks to censor people trying to expand the coverage to a full NPOV-balance of a topic. If Google thinks a topic has 4 major search-categories, then prepare to have at least 4 articles. Switch from severe opinions to objective analysis of related data, and stop the witch-hunts of !non-votes about who doesn't think something is notable. Change to a system of objective measurements about topics, rather than "Delete", "Delete" because a handful out of 13 million registered users don't personally like something. Use statistical surveys of data to get general trends, and avoid focusing on a few complaints out of thousands of readers. The key is to focus on objective measurements, not a "jury of sneers" who decide everything. -Wikid77 (talk) 09:58, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
• I agree that there is a big problem in dealing with civil (and even with uncivil) POV pushers. There are some editing tactics, like misinterpreting sources and tendentiously restating the same point again (and again, and again, and again, and again) that make editing articles in certain topic areas incredibly frustrating and difficult. Although civility is certainly important in minimizing conflict, the overriding goal is to have good content, and the first editor to be uncivil in such a situation is not always the one at fault. And if the mess finds its way to a noticeboard, it generally degenerates into an abstract debate about Free Speech and Censorship or a "he said, she said" mudslinging match. Sometimes, the situation is graced with some of the extraordinary editors that have the ability to navigate the minefield of POV-pushing and forge a compromise that everyone can agree is pretty darn good. (Ling.Nut seems to be one of these extraordinary editors, looking through her recent contribs I was extremely impressed with her tenacious, patient, reasonable, and diplomatic approach on the Six-Day War article, which was admired by editors on all sides of the debate). But, although carefully wrought work in uncontentious topic areas can remain in pristine condition for years with little maintenance required besides reverting simple vandalism, lovely work on contentious topics tends to succumb quickly to the forces of chaos unless a clueful editor is willing to take up residence on the talk page indefinitely. This is frustrating for the clueful editor, who might enjoy developing new encyclopedic content rather than dealing with the same issues again (and again, and again, and again, and again). If are better systematic ways to deal with POV-pushing, to make it easier to create and maintain excellent content in contentious topic areas, and to reduce stress on productive editors, we should try them. Cordelia Vorkosigan (talk) 19:07, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I see your point about the fleeting control of busy articles, which are soon likely to descend into other rounds of hacked text (again & again). For that reason, I have proposed defining formal "layout pages" (like article "blueprints") which specify the agreed rules, decided particularly for each article, as rules listed in the "Talk:xx/layout" subpage for each controlled article. This is Wikimedia Strategy "Proposal:Create layouts to focus articles" (see: WM-CLFA). We know from city regulations, how people can be controlled (well) without chaining "clueful people" to every spot in a city, but there must be a general police force, and a set of detailed regulations. In a large group, people will not be stopped by "assume goodness" and "be neutral" because that is too vague. There must be more specific rules to control large groups of people, and hence, layout pages provide the specifics for article scope, format, notable controversies, and common pitfalls. Since the concept has been formally defined on the Strategy wiki, then feel free to start using layout-pages, where other editors agree to follow their shared, debated rules under "Talk:xx/layout". By accepting a layout-page, then editors are agreeing to stop total rewrites of articles, which formerly, had allowed the next group of folks to completely ignore years of prior discussions which had set consensus for each critical issue in an article. I thought of needing layout pages, after seeing article "Taj Mahal" totally re-written in a few days, and thinking, "Wow, a complete rewrite must be totally demoralizing to previous editors". Once you "put it in writing" then the POV-pushers, or POV-forcers, lose their power to upstage an article and replace the entire contents with their own fantasy text. This is another example where some simple ideas can generate massive improvements, to close the current loopholes in Wikipedia. See the Strategy proposal-link, above, for suggested details to define within layout-pages. -Wikid77 (talk) 09:40, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Another request from ~Wimpy Fanboy ^chit-chat? _{sign mine!} 15:05, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Could you please fully protect the user pages of my old accounts, Cedric99 and Cegalegolog99? Also, please hide the history of those pages. ~Wimpy Fanboy ^chit-chat? _{sign mine!} 15:05, 13 August 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wimpy Fanboy (talk • contribs)

Do you not have an e-mail address? There's a box when you log on which says 'email me new password' (or something like that). --Half Price (talk) 21:07, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Arbitration committee taking far too long

Regarding Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate change See Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate change/Proposed decision#Unacceptable. Is the arbitration process failing?

• The workshop page was closed 4 weeks ago today by a drafting arbiter, Risker the workshop and workshop talk pages are closed for posting, and will not reopen until the drafting arbitrators post proposals; this will be at minimum 48 hours from now. Four weeks, not 48 hours, have passed. Editors understand some delay to the process because of User:Newyorkbrad being out of action but this should be dealt with by other arbs and obviously has not been. Some review may be needed of the arbitration process. Polargeo (talk) 10:40, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Polargeo. While it has been pointed out that the 48 hour reference includes the qualifier "minimum", the phrase sets up an expectation that the time will be days, meaning a few. Not 28. I'm quite appreciative of the complexity of this case - my concern is the lack of communication. A number of open issues are on hold, on the presumption that a proposed result was imminent. The arbitration committee should add some guidelines on how they communicate with the community when results are expected to take more than a few days.--SPhilbrickT 11:59, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Or maybe we just need some more arbitrators. -- œ^™ 12:51, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Maybe. But arbiters who Grasp the nettle rather than go to ground will be a start. Polargeo (talk) 12:53, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Why are you guys complaining to Jimbo about this? Cla68 (talk) 13:21, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Why are you happy with the status quo? Polargeo (talk) 13:26, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

What do you expect Jimbo to do about it? Cla68 (talk) 14:03, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm personally hoping Jimbo will dock their pay for this! ;-) ATren (talk) 18:13, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I won't speak for Polargeo, but I'll tell you why I posted here. I assume the arbs and clerks are doing what they are supposed to be doing—working hard to craft a proposed decision. When I look at the procedural policy I see no guidance on what they should do if they expect a long gap between the closing of the workshop and the issuance of a draft decision. I assume they have broad leeway in their actions, and they could do a better job of communicating, and resolving interim issues, but they have not. One option is for the community to propose changes in the way an arbitration is handled in this situation. It is arguably the best solution, and ideally, the only way a change would be enacted. However, if Jimbo were to read this discussion, there's a chance he might agree that the communication between the arbs and the community isn't ideal, and he might suggest that it could be improved. My experience tells me that a prod from Jimbo carries more weight, than,say, a prod from me. I'm not suggesting Jimbo ought to unilaterally change the policy. I'm simply suggesting that if he agreed that the policy address procedures in a situation where there is expected to be a multi-week lag, that the community would start such a discussion seriously.--SPhilbrickT 16:01, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree with this analysis. Polargeo (talk) 16:15, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Maybe ... we must have good faith. Zulu Papa 5 * (talk) 13:49, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

So ZuluPapa has not said he is happy but that we must assume good faith. Come on ZP put some argument forward. Polargeo (talk) 13:57, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Climate change/Proposed decision#Interim comment. It's not being ignored, and if it was really necessary to ask about this in a second forum this isn't necessarily the best one if you want the attention of Arbs or Clerks. This is a time of year when we both tend to be away, don't forget, and this is a complicated case. I can understand the frustration that people have over this, but we all want this done correctly. It doesn't help that this is now being discussed in two venue, here and the proposed decision page. Dougweller (talk) 14:12, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

This is not really being discussed on any venue. I don't really get what you are driving at here. Is it. "We are all on holiday so don't expect any decisions for a few weeks" let's play in the sand? Polargeo (talk) 14:17, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

See my comment here:

I always thought that it would take ArbCom of the order of 90 days to carefully examine all the facts, deliberate, and draft proposed decisions. When I saw the 48 hours notice, I was very surprised. Count Iblis (talk) 16:00, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Count Iblis (talk) 15:08, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, why not make that 365 days or more? Polargeo (talk) 15:09, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Arbitrators like the rest of us are volunteers and have real lives outside of Wikipedia. Rushing a complex issue/case won't give a fair response either, so patience is necessary. Wikipedia is a project, not a life.(olive (talk) 15:37, 16 August 2010 (UTC))

Apologies... Jehochman was closing this as I was posting.(olive (talk) 15:39, 16 August 2010 (UTC))

If anyone wants a change in policy, they should be commenting at Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Policy/Draft. Dougweller (talk) 17:05, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Jeeeze, can we not just flag the issue up here without all this opposition? Polargeo (talk) 17:13, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't intend to speak for Jimbo in any way, but generally speaking if he hasn't responded at this point he has chosen not to... Cwill151 (talk) 17:30, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

He hasn't even edited since this thread started. Please stop trying to close this thread down. Polargeo (talk) 17:33, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Please, my pointing out that there is currently an opportunity to shape policy on this isn't opposition. Dougweller (talk) 17:39, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

• Raising an issue repeatedly, badgering, demanding answers is not helpful. The ArbCom is well aware that you and others want a result. Please be patient, instead of spreading the conflict to multiple forums. Failure to drop the stick and continuing to forum shop is not a good idea. Jehochman ^Talk 17:59, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I hope everyone will please relax a notch or two. I'll drop a line to ArbCom to let them know that people are eager for a decision. But I'll also firmly recommend that they take their time to try to get this right. There are no deadlines. I'm sure everyone would agree that a decision which works and really helps things, 4 weeks later, is better than a decision taken 4 weeks earlier which doesn't work as well.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:49, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I am concerned that there is a misapprehension at work here, on the part of one or more parties — possibly that includes myself. My understanding of how the Arbitration process generally works is that the ArbCom presents a proposed decision, and then allows ample time for further discussion – followed by amendments of proposals, addition of overlooked remedies, review of evidence (even introduction of new evidence if necessary), and voting – before closing the (sometimes extensively) revised final decision. While I agree that it would be imprudent to rush the process, I am not sure that the community, the encyclopedia, the involved parties, or even the Arbitrators themselves are best served by this extraordinary closed-door session. Unless the ArbCom hopes to do a great deal of off-wiki horse-trading so as to produce a rubber-stampable decision with a minimum of open discussion – which I don't believe that they want – attempting to achieve perfection before presenting the proposed decision is probably a futile endeavor. Encouraging them to 'take their time to try to get this right' before posting a proposed decision may actually be counterproductive, because it will encourage them to view their slowly-hammered-out decision, when finally posted, as a final product not requiring or subject to revision.

Perhaps the Arbs should present what they have now, allow the community to comment, and reserve the right to present a second draft in a few weeks. Carcharoth recently asked the parties what they might like to add to the case if the workshop were to be unlocked for further posting. He also noted that the evidence page would not be re-opened for new evidence unless proposals were put forth describing why new evidence was needed. While Carcharoth's question was in good faith, it is impossible for the parties to guess what might be worthwhile to add if they have no idea what findings the ArbCom is or is not considering, nor any notion of what evidence the Committee finds convincing or lacking. This case is unusual among Arbitrations in that it lacks both a formal list of involved parties and any statement of its scope; given those circumstances, the ArbCom has a greater responsibility to provide feedback to the community than it may be used to. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 22:59, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I think that problem isn't limited to this case. In a legal case, the charges are clear and the threshold for evidence is known to a reasonable degree. With an ArbCom case it's hard to know what violations may have occurred or are serious enough for a remedy, and what evidence it going to be relevant or sufficient. It would really help if arbitrators acted less like a jury, who passively sit back while evidence is presented to them, and more like a magistrate, who actively questions the participants.   Will Beback  talk  23:32, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree with this. The best ArbCom decisions have not been made behind closed doors, but transparently so that people can see which Arb is making the proposal, and why, and how the others are responding. I wondered about the decision at the start of the climate-change case to have three named Arbs draft the decision, because it means if they're busy the case will be slowed down, and other Arbs may want to draft parts of the decision instead. It is always helpful when the Arbs are pro-active, asking questions, accepting feedback, adjusting their views. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 23:38, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm about to open up a 'general discussion' page for this case, where discussions like this can take place at a centralised venue. One of the things that causes lack of co-ordination and an appearance of chaos is the propensity for discussions to spring up in odd places (such as Lar's talk page, Jimbo's talk page, the user talk pages of various arbitrators). This makes it well-nigh impossible to follow what is happening (this is what led me to make an update on the proposed decision talk page, while not realising that discussions were going on on arbitrator talk pages). It is time-consuming enough to follow the changes here without having user talk pages thrown into the mix (along with non-arbitration edits). So what I am going to do is set up the general discussion page mentioned earlier, and ask everyone to please comment there and not spread things out all over the place. And as Jimbo says, "please relax a notch or two". Carcharoth (talk) 00:53, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

While I appreciate the offer, Carcharoth, the problem isn't really one of a lack of places to shoot the breeze. Unless there is going to be some sort of very clear, definite, significant, comprehensive feedback from the active Arbitrators on this case as to what remedies are being considered and what evidence is being discussed, opening another discussion venue isn't going to be helpful. You remain the only Arbitrator who has offered any appreciable response to the proposals on the workshop page, and even then you stopped offering comments pretty early on. If you could get your fellow Arbitrators to open up a bit, that would be far more useful to the process than creating a new forum for parties to guess about the direction of the case. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 01:34, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

This new page is intended to be a venue for active arbitrators to engage with the parties. It is a necessary balance between engaging with the parties and doing the work of writing out a proposed decision that is in good enough shape to present to the parties for comments. The first stage is taking place off-wiki, but there should be a lengthy period of on-wiki discussion of the proposals before voting takes place. One of the other things I intend to do there is ask the questions I had been intending to ask earlier. The key is to set the pace at the right level. One arbitrator can be overwhelmed quickly by comments from lots of parties to a case. Get the level right though, and it should work. Carcharoth (talk) 01:46, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

To clarify, is it your intention to discuss specific remedies and findings actually under consideration (or why certain remedies and findings are not being proposed)? And will there be regular participation from a significant cross-section of arbitrators, or just from you? In the absence of a direct connection between the discussion page on-wiki and the discussions that Arbs are having off-wiki (and which they probably ought to be moving on-wiki very soon), I still have reservations about the usefulness of this page. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 02:33, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

I was expecting questions like: "Why is it taking so long?" or "How much progress has been made in the last week" or "Which bits of evidence were useful?". Stuff like that. Less discussion goes on off-wiki than you might think. Things are still at the stage of getting the general proposed decision in shape, based partly on the evidence submitted so far, and partly on what arbitrators find that hasn't been submitted in evidence. Once it reaches that point, the proposed decision should be posted on-wiki to allow discussion. It's a question of fleshing out the decision so that a useful discussion can be had on-wiki, and then refining it from there. Essentially, I want to answer questions about how a proposed decision is written, and clear up some common misunderstandings. Carcharoth (talk) 03:15, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

For the record, my page is not an "odd page", it's remarkably even :) ++Lar: t/c 02:17, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

A Request from:Augusto Antonio

Good day Mr. Jimbo Wales. I'm an italian wikipedian and I don't know english very well. Can you do me a favour? I would like to have your welcome for me (I am new in Wikipedia) in my english talk page. I would be very honored. Thanks. --Augusto Antonio (msg) 14:42, 16 August 2010 (CEST)

I too want your autograph Jimbo. It's time to please your fans! :) -- œ^™ 12:56, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I would settle for a "welcome to wikipedia, you have been a naughty boy - signed Jimbo" Polargeo (talk) 13:03, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

"Let's hear it for another great Italian, ladies and gentlemen, Augusto Antonio!" DVdm (talk) 13:31, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Disrupting Wikipedia to prove edit-counts are wanted

With the Soxred93 edit-counter tool offline this past week, it was a great opportunity to realize Wikipedia, sometimes, slips into a "single point of failure" in relying too much on one thing, and "putting too many eggs in one basket". That reminder has prompted me to begin writing a much-needed essay to explain getting a user's edit-count in other ways:

• "Wikipedia:Analyzing edit counts"

In particular, people can use the Special:Contributions page, with CGI option "limit=5000" and display several pages of 5000 History-tab entries, to indicate how many edits a particular user has logged. That essay can be expanded, with other ideas about determining a user's edit-activity, to better explain how a person's edit-history indicates the nature of their work efforts on Wikipedia. The offline tool came at a perfect time, because the August-swell of increased new pages (after summer vacations) is just about to start, and an essay has been needed about the topic of edit-count analysis. -Wikid77 (talk) 19:09, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I never even look at edit counts, so I wasn't even aware that the tool was offline. Did anyone else notice? Why? Is it important?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:51, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Many noticed, and it is the subject of a minor tempest in a teacup at WT:RFA (really - very minor). I do find it quite useful. When I run across a new editor, it helps give me a picture. It is decried for providing the total count, so let's pretend I don't look at that. I can look at the distribution of edits between areas. I've personally been fighting a losing battle to keep my article edits above 50%. Seeing how many edits are in Wikipedia space gives me some insight into the extent to which they are contributing to the community, versus pure wiki-gnoming. There's nothing at all wrong with pure wiki-gnoming, but if I'm looking for someone to give a second opinion on an article requesting feedback, I want someone who has some experience, and seems interested in helping others.

I help out at WP:MFD. A common claim is that someone is using their user page for playing games. Frankly, I'd like to cut them some slack if they are also building the encyclopedia. The tool is a quick way to find out, for example, that they may have zero edits to article space.

If I am doing an editor review, I'd like to see which articles they have edited the most. The tool tells me that. There's probably another way to find out, but I don't know what it is.--SPhilbrickT 00:12, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

^ These reasons, yes. Getting rid of the tool wouldn't stop editcountitis anyways. It just serves as a useful system that explains a lot about a user, their habits, and what they need to work on. There's a reason why it is so useful in RfAs. Silverseren^C 00:16, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Request for responsible attitude.

Dear Mr. Wales, I am writing you about this post in which you stated "I think a cursory look at dozens of articles suggest that, if anything, we have a problem with anti-Israeli bias, not the other way around.". I imagine that you understand that you are an important personality and serve, among some others, as a face to Wikipedia. This position begs some responsibility on your actions as they are given more weight, sometimes, and may exercise influence, in this case on Wikipedia. On this light I would like to ask you to comment further on the linked statement. To what degree is this claim true? What articles you had in mind for that "cursory look"? To what extend is this a personal view/ opinion or, if it is the case, a view supported by some other source as well (maybe even a reliable source in the sense of Wikipedia)? Thank you. Best regards, Alotropicistic (talk) 20:46, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I think it is going to be difficult to find a source on this, from outside Wikipedia, that isn't an editorial commentary by someone in one direction or the other. It would be difficult to design a rigorous test for it, because bias is not amenable to simple algorithmic analysis.

Nonetheless, I think it is clearly true in many cases.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:54, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Could you point to an example or two? Unomi (talk) 21:59, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Quickly - Art student scam is a minor example. Article ostensibly about a criminal trick (interesting enough, I guess) but it's also a WP:COATRACK so that the vast bulk of the article is about accusations (with virtually no credibility) of a vast Israeli spyring. It's easy to find stuff like that.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:41, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I would personally say that we have bias on both sides of the Israeli argument on Wikipedia. It's not really that heavy toward any one side. Silverseren^C 22:02, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

In my experience it has been a struggle just to be able to state that certain areas are occupied, and this is the view held by just about every country in the world and the courts of Israel itself. Indeed many of our articles seem to fall afoul of WP:GEVAL due to misapprehensions of what WP:NPOV entails. Unomi (talk) 22:11, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

People see bias where they expect to see it, IMO. Tarc (talk) 00:33, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

I personally think some our articles on this topic contain pro-Israel bias, others contain anti-Israel bias, and others still manage to be biased both ways (usually as a result of a hamfisted attempt at NPOV). But it is a highly controversial subject area, where almost everyone has some existing prejudices, and it's very difficult (impossible?) to write a neutral and objective view. Certainly not somewhere we're likely to reach consensus any time soon, any more than the real world conflict will. Robofish (talk) 01:07, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Couldn't agree more. Unomi (talk) 01:15, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

User page

Nice user page! Must be worth a "JimboFortune"! Hazard-SJ ^Talk 05:31, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

User rights

Remember the question I asked about you not being a 'crat? I came across this (it actually says "admin", but...):

“

I just wanted to say that becoming a sysop is *not a big deal*.

I think perhaps I'll go through semi-willy-nilly and make a bunch of people who have been around for awhile sysops. I want to dispel the aura of "authority" around the position. It's merely a technical matter that the powers given to sysops are not given out to everyone.

I don't like that there's the apparent feeling here that being granted sysop status is a really special thing.

” — Jimmy Wales, wikimedia.org archive entry

Hazard-SJ ^Talk 07:02, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Tanks

Thanks for giving me his welcome. You were very kind. Augusto Antonio (talk) 14:29, 17 August 2010 (CEST)

August 2010

Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute to Wikipedia, at least one of your recent edits did not appear to be constructive and has been reverted or removed. Please use the sandbox for any test edits you would like to make, and read the welcome page to learn more about contributing constructively to this encyclopedia. Thank you. Pookeo9 ^{Talk If you need anything} 14:30, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

This is the final warning you will receive regarding your disruptive edits. If you vandalize Wikipedia again, you may be blocked from editing without further notice. Pookeo9 ^{Talk If you need anything} 14:30, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

This is the only warning you will receive regarding your disruptive edits. If you vandalize Wikipedia again, you may be blocked from editing without further notice. SANDNIGGER Pookeo9 ^{Talk If you need anything} 14:31, 17 August 2010 (UTC)