Talk:Green Line (Israel)

Arab POWs

The Jewish prisoners taken during the Israeli war of Independence is mentioned. Why no mention of the Arab POWs and forced labour gangs? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashley kennedy3 (talk • contribs) 20:47, 27 May 2008 (UTC) Sorry keep on forgetting to signAshley kennedy3 (talk) 21:01, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

No DMZ

The article doesn't mention the DMZ between the Green line and the Blue line in Jerusalem 1949, and between the Green line and Red line of the Jordanian and Israeli forces. Why? The Sovereignty over the DMZ was the biggest cause of clashes in the Latrun area and Jerusalem. Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 21:26, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

The map clearly shows the DMZ, not sure how you want it inserted in the article, but I'll be happy to work with you toward a consensus on wording and relevancy. Do you have a specific suggestion? -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 20:36, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Reference No. 2

Why is reference No. 2 in? Reference 2 is about Israeli security post 67 and nothing to do with the Green Line. The article is nothing more than the strategic argument for why Israel wishes to keep the Golan Heights and West Bank post 67 and nothing to do with the Green Line.Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 21:48, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Settlement vs. colony

The term settlement is widely used for Israeli localities in the West Bank (and to a lesser extent, Golan Heights), although a certain user has recently been edit-warring to insert the inherently POV word 'colony'. I believe there is consensus on this issue already, and would be glad if someone pointed out the centralized discussion which took place in the past (I can't find it). Additional opinions are welcome. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 20:34, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

"Localities"? I have no objection to the use of the word "settlement" to describe the Israeli colonies. What I object to is the insistence that it must be slavishly adhered to at all times. I fail to understand, even after a careful reading of the definition of the word "colony", why you find that term so objectionable, or how on Earth it could be considered POV.

Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 10:59, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Even if somehow the word 'colony' was factually correct in describing Israeli settlements, it does not override the WP:NPOV policy, which I suggest you review one more time. Wikipedia has clear consensus against using loaded terms like that. On the other side of the coin, we don't use the word 'terrorist' for any Palestinian personalities, including Yahya Ayyash, Ali Hassan Salameh, and other notorious people who are easily called terrorist by definition, and even called by that name in the media. There is honestly not a single good reason to use a more loaded term for Israeli localities beyond the Green Line than 'settlements', for which there is wide acceptance from both sides. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 15:48, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

"Even if somehow the word 'colony' was factually correct in describing Israeli settlements..."' - please see colony if you have any doubts. I can't see the the problem with NPOV, how exactly does the use of the phrase "Israeli colony" contravene policy? I'm afraid I find your analogies spurious, and let me assure you I'm not trying to get rid of the use of the term Israeli settlements".

Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 15:54, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

We need to use sources. There are millions of sources calling it settlements. Are there any legit sources calling it colonies? Once you change Israeli settlement to Israeli colony then it can be used (and by change, i mean not a redirect...). Amoruso (talk) 16:01, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand the second part of your entry, Amo. As for the first, where did you get that from? If someone is known to have murdered, do you insist he cannot be called a "murderer" on Wikipedia unless someone else has used that exact word about him beforehand?

Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 18:36, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

The main issue isn't sources, it's WP:NPOV. However, Amoruso makes a valid point. If only a handful of sources use 'colony', while millions of sources use 'settlement', then there's absolutely no mandate to use 'colony' anywhere. It would be undue weight.

About NPOV, let me explain it to you in two simple points:

1. Many people find the term 'colony' offensive and non-descriptive of Israeli settlements.
2. Coupled with the fact that there's no good reason to use 'colony', the offensive term should be removed.

I hope you understand now, although I can make it even simpler if you wish. I can also explain to you why 'colony' is factually incorrect, but that would take more of my time, so I won't do as long as you can't answer the above concerns. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 19:06, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

If Israel started to build concentration camps, but used another term to describe them, would you insist Wikipedia couldn't refer to the camps as "concentration camps" because Israelis might find that offensive? Some Turks are offended by accusations of genocide against them regarding the Armenians. I would say that is their hard luck. The only good reason needed to call the Israeli colonies as such is because they are colonies (see colony). If you believe that is "factually incorrect", by all means tell us why. As I now see the colonised also refer to the colonies as such, I'm not sure there's much left to say.

Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 19:37, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

A colony, by all (relevant) definitions, is a land belonging to a country which is not attached to that country. For example, a long time ago there were German colonies in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and Haifa. Colonies do not refer to localities in disputed non-sovereign territories adjacent to the parent state, like Israeli settlements. The West Bank is not a sovereign territory and no sovereign state has claimed rule over it except Jordan until 1988. According to the Oslo Accords, until a final settlement, some of the West Bank's territory is Palestinian-administered (areas A and B), while area C is Israeli-administered. Note that it is still no one's sovereign territory. Therefore, Israeli localities in Israeli-administered territories adjacent to Israel and belonging to no sovereign state cannot be called colonies by any definition. But I'd be glad if you provided a definition from a reliable source, after which we can talk it out. If you fail to provide such a source, I will consider your editing behavior disruptive and report it to WP:ANI. Cheers, Ynhockey ^(Talk) 16:38, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Note: WP:IPCOLL has been notified of this discussion. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 16:41, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Ynhockey, but the issue is simpler. We use the common terminology (see, for example, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names)). The word practically every source uses is "settlement". I've yet to see a single source using "colony". Thus, we also use "settlement". okedem (talk) 16:59, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Your argument is nonsensical, Ynhockey. Not all the West Bank colonies are "attached" to Israel, as you seem to think. Your argument about sovereignty is irrelevant. What definition of colony makes it necessary for sovereignty to have been declared over the colonised territory beforehand? If you want a definition of colony, go to the article colony, where the first sentence is: "In politics and in history, a colony is a territory under the immediate political control of a state." and the second paragraph says: "People who migrated to settle permanently in colonies controlled by their country of origin were called colonists or settlers." Okedem, I'm not proposing we cease use of the term "Israeli settlement", but rather that we end what seems to be an informal ban on alternate terms. If you have never seen the term "Israeli colony" used before, you can here.

Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 17:24, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I find it strange that you're using Wikipedia for your definitions. Wikipedia should not be used as a source on Wikipedia. Try www.dictionary.com, for instance. Also, please stop making personal attacks on other editors and their arguments. It only brings you closer to a topic ban (along with your disruptive editing so far). -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 18:55, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I see no good reason to use a rare, vague term, when there's a good, commonly used alternative. Settlement is the word all the major sources, news outlets etc. use, and so should we. I'm seems to me the sole purpose of using "colony" is to make insinuations, capitalizing on the bad reputation the word has, owing to western colonialism. Settlement is a much more neutral term, and using it allows us to focus on the facts at hand, instead of (consciously or unconsciously) biasing the reader against a certain subject. okedem (talk) 18:05, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I see no good reason to institute a total ban on a term that is an alternative to what could be construed as a euphemism. I don't think the term "colony" has as bad a reputation as you're making out. For example, no-one is accused of speaking in a negative way when they talk of colonization of the Moon or Mars.

Lapsed Pacifist (talk) 18:17, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

The only ones using "colony" are ones trying to push a certain POV. "Settlement" is used by sources such as the UN, the EU, BBC, etc. Nothing euphemistic about it. okedem (talk) 18:35, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

If you don't mind my saying so, this last comment seems to be the most salient of the thread so far. It not so helpful to have a debate of personal opinions/analysis of the terms. The key question to ask is what the best and most reliable sources are using as their terminology. If the UN, EU, & BBC utilize 'settlements,' what countervailing sources use 'colony'? The best term should be used consistently ("slavishly" seems an uncivil description) since this is a contentious naming issue. Thanks muchly. HG | Talk 19:37, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, which reliable sources use the phrase "Israeli colonies"? I can find many dozens that use the phrase "Israeli settlement". Jayjg ^(talk) 01:13, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree about the colonization of the Moon point. It's not more negative per se. It simply doesn't make sense. A colony is a distant place usually. If you check the colony article, it says that an alternative name is overseas territory. The idea that Israel has colonies 50 meters from its homes in an area smaller than New Jersey is what's funny here, or at least it would be if it was about another country and not Israel, which is open game. Anyway, yes, you colonize the moon, but you don't colonize your next door's neighbor's yard, which is a close to metaphor to these settlements by many people (although in most cases with the settlements there was sand without a neighbor). Amoruso (talk) 22:21, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Here are a number of sources that use the term "settlement":

• New York Times: Israeli Settlements Found to Grow Past Boundaries
• Time (magazine): An Army Mutiny in Israeli Settlements?
• Washington Post: Israeli settlements and outposts grew by more than 100 acres
• United Nations General Assembly: Israeli settlements in the Palestinian territory

Even Palestinian and Arab sources use the term:

• Mahmoud Abbas: We consider settlements to be the greatest obstacle to the road of peace.
• Palestinian News Network: PCHR commends UNICEF stance against illegal Israeli settlements
• Al Ahram:Summer would be a good time for a military offensive, as it would be easier to evacuate Israeli settlements close to Gaza, observers say.

It is ubiquitous. I could find thousands more. Which reliable sources use the term "colonies"? Jayjg ^(talk) 06:04, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Hiya, popping in as an uninvolved administrator, I would like to say that I have reviewed the discussion here, and it appears that the clear consensus is to use the term "Israeli settlements" as opposed to "Israeli colonies" at this time. If the "colonies" side can provide multiple sources which prove that that term is in wide use, consensus may change, But for now, please use "settlements". Thanks. Elonka 06:12, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

The Green Line and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict

I have updated the section entitled “The Green Line and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict” to include positions displayed by the documented record and corresponding references. The section's previous version had no references and was undoubtedly a POV entry. I have included extensive resources, from multiple, diverse sources (to avoid the claims of “bias” that will inevitably arise) in this current version, so I feel it would be appropriate to discuss any changes before they are made.Shakur420 (talk) 00:44, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Golan and Jerusalem in Overview?

Why are the Golan and East-Jerusalem mentioned in the overview of the article Green Line (Israel). They could be mentioned under Impact but are not part of the line itself. I will move or remove the passages after some weeks. A discussion before would be fruitful. --85.164.223.130 (talk) 09:22, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm not exactly sure what you are asking, but the Golan Heights are internationally recognized to be on the Syrian side of the Green Line. The whole of Jerusalem (and many surrounding villages/towns) is considered outside of the Green Line, and therefore legally outside of Israeli jurisdiction. East Jerusalem is legally considered to be Occupied Palestinian territory, again outside of Israeli jurisdiction. Perhaps this is why they are included in the "Overview" section, as they are fundamental issues pertaining to the manner in which the Green Line is interpreted and managed in real time. All reference to "legality" is in terms of international law (ICJ rulings, UN resolutions and Geneva Conventions), by the way. Let me know if you're interested in references.Shakur420 (talk) 01:33, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Sorry but you are not the person for a NPOV discussion. "The whole of Jerusalem (and many surrounding villages/towns) is considered outside of the Green Line" says much about your knowledge and your neutrality. Both are poison for Wikipedia. If there is no other opinion about the "Overwiew"-Part I will prepare an edit. --83.108.30.236 (talk) 14:26, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Please provide background on why the quoted portion "The whole of Jerusalem... etc." says anything about Shakur420's knowledge and neutrality. That seems like a very easily verifiable fact. Do you have a source that contradicts it?173.8.220.209 (talk) 00:25, 9 November 2010 (UTC)