Talk:Macedonia (region)

For older talk, see Talk:Macedonia (region)/archive.

WARNING: pro-Greek and pro-Bulgarian propaganda... why?

Just look at a section of this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Macedonia#not_NPOV

A tipical dealing between 2 administrators of Greek and Bulgarian origin to get together and ignore the Macedonian side.

After this, I feel like I do not need any fact... nothing worth more than the reveal of your own assimilative plan.

I won't try to give any further comments on this. That correspondence shows every point I would like to make.62.162.198.232 05:08, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Someone left some information (edits) during the night on the Macedonia page, which were reverted (with a right reason). Anyway, it had interesting point. I read one of these 2 books, very interesting one. So, maybe you should read them too, especially because they are both by Greek authors. After this, I am sure that 1000 Greek users will get together and try to deny the authors... but do not forget, they are from Greek origin, having PhDs and beeing proffesors at famous world universities. And, obviously, they are not nationalists, as most of the users here are. 62.162.198.232 07:47, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

The text of the edit made by an Australian IP address follows:

---

"Read the Anthropologic/ cultural studies done the Aegean region of Macedonia done by Anastasia N. Karakasidou called 'Fields of wheat, Hills of blood' published by the University of Chicago press. The book goes in depth about the change of the nationality of the aegean Macedonians during and most dramatically after the 18th century, This book unravels complex social, political and economic processes through which the Macedonians have become culturally amalgamated within an overarchingly Greek national identity. OR 'Ourselves and others: Development of a Greek Macedonian Identity since 1912' by Peter Mackridge and Eleni Yannakakis. A collection of essays by experts of several nationalities which examine historical, linguistic and anthropoligical perspectives."

---

If anyone wants to learn more about this 2 books (and many other similar), please use google or any other search engine. Get informed by yourself, pick up your link and source. Do not let anyone point you a link that they prefer, which supports their POV. Build your own neutral POV. 62.162.198.232 07:47, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

answer to Mr 62.162.198.232

You wrote "Matia, you can not hide your identity by not logging in. Anyone can trace you." Once again you are wrong. I'm a man, and that means that I'm not hiding behind numbers of IP. You were the one who threatened before that you won't get banned because you have dynamic IP on many servers, your wording was I have about 11000 different IP addresses that I can use only on one server. Not to mention the other servers. They say you shouldn't judge the others with your own actions as a criterion. So don't accuse me of doing the same things you do.

Ps, when I first saw that reverse I thought you were the one who removed the NPOV tag, because the other user with anonymous IP also starts with a 62. MATIA 19:06, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Maybe I am wrong. I had to provoke you to see your reaction "man". :) I remember that you were insisting on removing the NPOV tag and also your edits are in close time to the edits made by this IP. Sorry if I am wrong.

BTW, you said "I'm a man, and that means that I'm not hiding behind numbers of IP". Exacly this kind of comments make me think that you are a kid with 18 years tops. Again, maybe I am wrong, but this looks like a kid fight: "I am the man... No, I am the man, not you... So wrong. I AM THE MAN!!!". No offence, just kidding, neighbour. :))

It is evident that you are kidding Chronographos 19:24, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

I traced the IP that removed the tag. It starts with 62, but it is from a Greek server. More preciselly, Athens. As far as I remember, it mentioned some area "Atika" or something like that. I am not sure about the last one.

Sorry again if I made mistake. Next time I will try to trace directly the computer of the user. Cheers. 62.162.198.232 19:18, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Your computer must be faulty. Atika is not in Athens. Are you sure you are virus- and spyware-free? Chronographos 19:23, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

My computer is completely spy and virus free, don't worry. I said that I am not sure about the last one. I will trace the guy the next time when I get him online, so I will tell you which server he uses. Maybe even some private info, depends on the leght of the time he will be online and how protected is he. But, when you think about it, it is not so important. I am sure it was Athens or Athens area, I double checked that. 62.162.198.232 19:35, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

"That was ment just for provocation. It already worked on other user, but you kept it quite calm. That is what I wanted to see." Guess who wrote that to me few days ago. Mr "I Sterbinski 19:16, 19 August 2005 (UTC)". What should I say now Mr "62.162.198.232"? Should I ask you again to sign in? MATIA 20:29, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

He knows that lack of identity comes with lack of accountability, and milks it for all it's worth. For example, if something he wrote as 62.162.198.232 is embarrassingly refuted, he can always claim that it was a Frenchman of Greek origin, whereas he himself was logging in on 62.162.198.231.

Sometimes the tardiness and incoherence of his responses make me think that his ISP uses Carrier pigeons to perform TCP/IP. Of course there is nothing that would a priori preclude error correction protocols and built-in redundancy in CP/TCP/IP. Such a hardware configuration would be uniquely susceptible to avian, rather than regular, viruses, which would then require the professional skills of a Cyber-Vet, such as the renowned Dr. Ifixit Cybervetski.

Other precautionary measures include surveillance and inspection of pigeon resting stations, as there have been instances of suspected sabotage reported: namely quantities of poison-laced millet, illicitly deposited there. Since then the state has cracked down on clandestine millet trade, as it was feared that it was the work of the Greek secret services. This has given rise to the Skopjan proverb: "Beware of Greeks bearing millet."

Indeed they routinely operate a fall-back system using Smoke signals during pigeon mating season, when TCP/IP packets tend to get wet, or sticky, resulting in data corruption and checksum mismatch. I understand that diesel-powered industries get frustrated when such smoke-based backups are being deployed: they report high levels of transmission noise.

And let us not forget that our friend Sterbinski promised that the exact nature of the mysterious international organization (you know, the one with the bossy-boss-who-demands-"results"-ASAP) would have been revealed a few days ago. No such luck. One should tell him that movie scripts need plot twists to keep audiences interested. Especially since the movie he's playing lacks major box office attractions.

Chronographos 00:17, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

I won't keep wasting my time to explain that I am not Mr. Sterbinski. I told you I know the guy, he is friend of my brother. I asked him what is the catch, but he said that he has nothing to do with any posts in last 20 days. I personally do not beleive him, because his nickname appears in this page often in last 20 days.

Look, I know quite a lot about computers, same as him. As far as I know, he is studing computing at some university in UK. I finished the same career here, in Skopje. And anyone who knows anything more about networks knows how to trace an IP. Depending how good he is, that is how much information he can get.

So, give me a break about Sterbinski. Concerning him, I even do not agree with some of his positions.

From now on, I will ignore any further provocation in me conecting to Mr. Sterbinski. I do not have time to waste over that issue anymore.

If he promised you a post where he will explain you everything, talk to him. Not to me.

And I won't create my identity and sign in. I am aware that I won't change much eighter way. The text on the page will stay the way the Greek users want it. 62.162.198.232 09:59, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

What petty nonsense! You are not Sterbinski, you are his friend's brother. Or maybe his mother's lover. Or a millet merchant. For all I know, the next person you'll claim to be is Dr. Ifixit Cybervetski. Chronographos 10:09, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

How big you think is the internet comunity in Skopje? Just 5% of the Macedonia population use internet for more than 1 hours daily. I used to work with his brother for 3 years and we still have often contact. And you know what? Why would I even care about the identity you think I have. Maybe I am him, maybe I am not. Maybe I am Hugh Hefner. Even if I have a nickname, I can put any name I want. So, if I make a nickname HughHefner, will I become him? :)

BTW, I REALY do not have any wish to be his mothers lover. :) 62.162.198.232 10:28, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Your statement about Internet usage in Macedonia is grossly inaccurate. There are several hundred thousand regular Internet users in Thessaloniki alone. Chronographos 10:36, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Than you for revealing that Thessaloniki (Solun) is Macedonian city. But, these days it is Greek teritory and I don't expect that to change soon. Even the population became dominantly Greek in the last 100 years. If I am mistaken, why did you change the name of that city from Slavic to Greek?

I actually was refering to the teritory of modern Macedonia, the one that lived its independence. :) 62.162.198.232 11:48, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Ah, yes, masks coming off at last. Thessaloniki was founded in 315 BC and named after Thessalonike, a daughter of Philip II born on the day he won a victory (nike) over the Thessalians. It has been a predominantly Greek city for most of its continuous 2320-year long existence. And should you refer to your country only, which is the minor part of Macedonia, you should use an appropriate qualifier so that people know what you're talking about, Mr. Sterbinski (does your name derive from German sterben?) Chronographos 13:36, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

The Slavic form Solun was a corruption of Greek Saloniki, itself abbreviated from Greek Thessaloniki. For a similar change of Greek -a- (Salon-) to Slavic -o- (Solun), see Greek karabion ---> Slavic korab' (see Proto-Slavic language). ----Decius 13:15, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Decius, how can you explain the corruption of the Greek word democracy (δημοκρατία) into the Macedonian Slav word "utopija" ? Chronographos 13:36, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

All of you guys... whole world knows that you changed the names of almost all rivers, towns, mountains etc. in the Greek Macedonia (Aegean Macedonia) in order to make them Greek. That is a history fact placed in any history book.

You arbitrarily draw the line of "originality": where it suits your POV. After Macedonia was liberated from 500 years of Ottoman rule, such place names as had changed were reverted to their original state. Chronographos 15:35, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Now probably you will write me 100 lines of text, denying what I said, but all that will be without without any worldwide support.

I already quoted 2 famous books written by independent Greek experts, concerning Aegean Macedonia. There is very clearly explained what happened in Aegean Macedonia in the last 100 years. Read and learn a part from your own history that your goverment hides from you.

Having grown up in an ex-Communist country, it's understandable why you think that governments actually control people's minds. Here in the West, though, this is not the case. Chronographos 15:35, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Here is the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Macedonia#WARNING:_pro-Greek_and_pro-Bulgarian_propaganda..._why.3F 62.162.198.232 15:03, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

No need, I'll summarize what happened for you: after the Balkan Wars and WW I, when Macedonia was liberated from Turkish rule, Muslims were exchanged with Asia Minor Greeks, a part of the Slavs fled (or were driven off) North and the remainder were hellenized, and Greeks from the North fled South. So? Chronographos 15:35, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

This page is protected

I have protected this page due to an ongoing content dispute. Please post any comments about the procedural aspect of the protection here. --Ryan Delaney ^talk 15:17, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

At last .... Thanks, Ryan. Chronographos 15:37, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Since the admins are here they can read 41 To User User:62.162.193.198 on this talk page (and perhaps above it), the WP:ANI report, check the history, etc. Thank you in advance. MATIA 15:59, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

As far as I could see, the same happened some 20 days ago. Some neutral administrator blocked the page hoping that we, the "educated" Balkan people will finally deal. Soon after that, you (Greek users) gathered and pushed even more pro-Greek text at the Macedonia page. So, nothing changed, it only got far worse.

Non of us here can solve the history. Especially not the one on the Balkan. With emphacising everything that is in your favor and ignoring the things that are in someone elses favor, Macedonia page will never have NPOV.

So, what will this situation change? You will organize again, outnumber your opponents again and push your own POV once again. Same will happen on and on and on... until you realise that you are not the only one who matters in this world. 62.162.198.232 16:38, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

I recomend to the administrators to read all the complaints that the Macedonians sent here, including all the dealing between the Greek and Bulgarian users how to adopt the page so it will suit them both. 62.162.198.232 17:02, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

The page is still locked in the "wrong" version, which is something that I don't understand since it contradicts wiki-rules, but I suppose it's better than nothing. Irbinski you had the chance to back up your claims and you ditched it by providing us with ridiculous material such as genetic propaganda of the type "Greeks have Marsian ancestry", so stop whining already. Miskin 17:13, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, you know how this will go, don't you. First they got their language called Macedonian, plain, with no qualifications, as though it was the only language spoken there, then they got "Republic of Macedonia" as the Wiki-name for their state (in the name of NPOV), now they are trying to get rid of "Slavs" in Macedonian Slavs (in the name of NPOV), next they will just be going to articles like Alexander the Great and innocently put brackets around "Macedonian". And whoever objects will be branded as a POVer. Typical Communist tactics: when there is no food, feed them some ideology. Chronographos 17:30, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Please re-read Wikipedia:Civility and Wikipedia:No personal attacks, as the last line of the previous post could easily be construed as such an attack. Comments such as those do not contribute in a productive way to the discussion here. – Friejose 17:40, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

I am quite familiar with the guidelines you mention, therefore I do not plan to re-read them soon. I am astounded that you disagree that what I described was how Communist regimes dealt with public discontent: trying to sate their hunger with badly-cooked ideology. I contend that this is exactly how the post-1991 leaders of FYROM have dealt with the country's immense problems. And the non-minority population have largely swallowed it whole. You may or may not be aware that there are still UN peacekeepers stationed there, protecting the Albanian minority from oppression and preventing a slide into civil war. You also may or may not know that a few days ago the Prelate of the Serbian Orthodox Church in FYROM, Archbishop Jovan, received an 18-month sentence for performing a baptism. Archbishop Jovan is imprisoned with minimal visitation rights and is forbidden to wear his vestments and keep a Bible. Does the "Communist" connection look any clearer now?

You may consider my critique as a "personal attack". You may also believe that there is a little man living in your thumb. These are your First Amendment rights. Allow me to safeguard my own freedom of speech as best as I see fit. Chronographos 19:13, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

There is a whole etymological section about the origin of the name of Macedonia, the existence of this (from Greek tra-la-la) is totally superfluous and I'm sure that

all non-Greek editors are aware of the fact why the note was put there. The name should be given either only in English, or in all languages which are spoken in the region - which includes besides Greek, Macedonian and Bulgarian. As for the complaints by the Macedonian editors - the history of the region is given precisely in the way it´'s given in history books and encyclopaedias. Pushing up POV and screaming that someone else is pushing NPOV is called hypocrisy. VMORO 18:15, August 25, 2005 (UTC)~

Albanian is also spoken in Macedonia: by 600,000 ethnic Albanians in FYROM. Chronographos 19:24, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

VMORO the etymology reflects the fact that it's a Greek word, not that the current Greek-speaking population of the region (which is the majority anyway). The Bulgaro-Macedonian languages have no connection to this definition, hence they are irrelevant to the etymology of the word. If the etymology was in Hebrew then that's what it should be written in. As for you tra-la-la argument about the name, all you have to do is cite scholars who have a different version of the story, and all we have to do is cite the ones who have supported tra-la-la. In this way the matter will be settled. Miskin 18:25, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Indeed. Let's ignore the Greek etymology of the name but let's not forget to post 23 maps proving that Macedonia was always Bulgarian all along. Right.--Theathenae 18:28, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Excuse me folks, but it seems to me that VMORO is not deriding the Greek etymology, just the intent to place it (redundantly) in the opening sentence when the etymology is already fully detailed below. I have agreed since the dispute on this sentence began that we should, in the opening sentence, have it only in English or in the several languages of the region. If I'm not mistaken, User:Theathenae (a Greek) had also agreed to this earlier.

See Skopje as an example of a name given in many languages, without the intent to give an etymology in the opening sentence. ---Decius 18:32, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

User:Decius (only a half Greek) is right. Stating the obvious, namely that Macedonia is Greek, is redundant in the opening sentence. It should stay English-only.--Theathenae 18:46, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

User:Decius (a Romanian) agrees that English only would be better, because too many languages are spoken in the region. ---Decius 18:49, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Skopje is a city, not a province that's (supposedly) divided between various nations. The most reasonable thing would be to write it in Slavic. Miskin 18:54, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Here, a region: Dobruja. This is a commonplace in Wiki. ---Decius 19:03, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Where's the Aromanian version? That's where most of them were sent by Bucharest.--Theathenae 19:11, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

What I'd like to know is how come you people didn't object to this prior to Irbinski's vandalism? Miskin 18:54, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

I don't object to it but I don't think it's essential either. The etymology section sets the record straight quite nicely.--Theathenae 19:08, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Prior to Sterbinski's vandalism (or, to be more gentle, eccentric edits), the stable version of the article gave Macedonia only in English in the opening sentence. So I'm not sure what you mean by "prior to Irbinski's vandalism". ---Decius 19:12, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Sterbinski's hysterical insistence on including a warning of "Greek and Bulgarian propaganda" was clear vandalism. No need to be diplomatic about it.--Theathenae 19:17, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it was vandalism, I was joking. Repeated blatant vandalism that continues to go on unchecked. But this is Wikipedia. ---Decius 19:21, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

If that wasn't the original version then I rest my case. I just had the impression that it was, because I remembered of Irbinski's initial edits had that swept it under the rug. Miskin 20:31, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Look through the history, and you will see that a version such as this [1] (pre-Sterbinski) is representative of the pre-Sterbinski formulation in the opening sentence (Macedonia in English only). ---Decius 20:44, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

The article looked so much prettier with the statue of Alexander, don't you think, Alexandre?--Theathenae 21:00, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

I am secure enough of my heterosexuality that I can say: yes, I liked the image being placed there, but it was impractical I guess. ---Decius 21:08, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

How was it impractical, big boy? It was only removed because User:Dbachmann didn't like it. Then again, User:Dbachmann is also entirely dismissive of the international dispute for which negotiations are continuing at the United Nations. Read below.--Theathenae 06:52, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

A satellite image of Macedonia would be a useful image to put at the top of the page. ---Decius 03:51, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

So, it already started. Atacks, denial of any comment that I will make, even denial of comments that I will make in future.

You can easily check that our language was and is called Macedonian in any reliable source. And, I do not remember who gave you right Chronographos (and anyone else) to change someones identity?

I won't use my chanse to give my reasons why I do not agree with this text. I do not beleive that anything will change. You will organize again and deny it, so the text will stay the same.

The present text is clearly assimilative and POV pushing. Therefore, people should be warned that there are many people who disagree with this version of the text. Leave the NPOV tag and write whatever you want. Write that we have smaller brain than yours, so that is why we can not reason the truth you know and support. Or, that the absence of hair on my head is clear punishment by Zevs because of my choise to keep my Macedonian identity. I don't care. Anything that suits you. But that won't change the fact that I am reality and I am Macedonian.

I said I won't comment on my real identity (Sterbinski, Hugh Hefner, John Lennon or anyone else). My ignoring on this issue should not be recognized as admitment that I am Mr. Hugh. Aldough I wish I was. :) 62.162.198.232 19:26, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

BTW, Jovan is inprisoned because of promoting national hate, which after the 2001st conflict is strictly forbitten in Macedonia. Also, he is charged of stealing about 200000 Euros.

All Orthodox Christian Churches say otherwise. Chronographos 19:32, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

I will have to point out that only the Greek, Serbian and Patriarch of Constantinople reacted. Patriarch of Constantinople is lead by a Greek priest and the Serbian is the closest friends of the Greek church. Interesting point is that the Serbs offered us recognition to our church if we drop the name "Macedonian". Here in Macedonia everyone beleives that the Greek church is behind this problem, because we had very close relations with the Serbs.

On the other hand, the Russian Church did not protest against Jovan's inprisoning. He just sent a letter to both (Macedonian and Serbian) church to continue their dialogue and ask our prime minister to release Jovan as a act of good faith. No critic on the decision were given, and both churches were called "saint". 62.162.198.232 00:07, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Oh, what a fine conundrum this is! You keep the Archbishop in jail, and the international outroar continues. You release him, and poof, there goes the notion of an independent judiciary. And of course you haven't touched the core of the issue yet: how come a religious leader gets a jail term for performing a religious ceremony, and why is he denied basic human rights even in prison. 05:47, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

An international wach at his trial is allowed, so let's see. 62.162.198.232 00:07, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

The man was tried and jailed already. Chronographos 19:32, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Wach is aproved on his next 4-5 trials for stealing money from the churches where he used to be priast at. Money that supposed to be used for building new church and helping poor. I personally do not agree he to be in jail for spreading national hate because he did not have any support from the people, so no-one will follow his words. Anyway, I beleive that all that church thing is politically motivated, including Jovan's work. 62.162.198.232 00:07, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

A basic tenet of Western democracies is that all trials are public by definition. I am surprised that a special "aproval" was needed for "wach". Does this mean that the previous trial was done in secret?!?!? Chronographos 05:47, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

This is just a proof how the Greeks easily push his POV here on Wikipedia. 62.162.198.232 19:26, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

"Promoting national hate"? Is that the official designation of the thoughtcrime of daring to contemplate the notion that not all Slavs in the FYROM are "Macedonians"? Perish the thought.--Theathenae 19:46, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

No national hate here. Just a note on my thinking that you really use chanse to promote your POV, no matter of the accuracy of the information you have. 62.162.198.232 00:07, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

tfd, the term et al (subsection title added 28 August 2005)

While some people contribute and try to talk and negotiate, others try to hide the problem under the carpet, or actually VfD it. See Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion#Template:Macedonian_naming_dispute. MATIA 23:34, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

The naming despute is reality and I personally think it should stay, no matter it is not in favor of Macedonians. 62.162.198.232 00:07, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

the official naming dispute is over, has been over for 10 years now,

The sanctions were lifted in September 1995 after the Republic of Macedonia changed its flag to an eight-ray sun and not the Vergina Sun, and changed the constitution to state explicitly that "The Republic of Macedonia has no territorial pretensions towards any neighboring state".

that's what politicians do, compromise. The naming dispute is now only continued by simpleminded patriots who cannot get a life. Nothing that should bother Wikipedia, so let the silliness stop already. How childish can you be? They state in their bloody constitution that they have no territorial pretensions to Greek Macedonia. It is undisputed that their territory is part of what was Ancient Macedon. So why the hell should they not be called Republic of Macedonia? Give us a break, ok? The dispute is very well documented here, and that's as it should be, but that's where the matter should be put to rest. dab (ᛏ) 06:44, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Or else?--Theathenae 06:46, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

dab you can find out that the official naming dispute is not over ten years ago.MATIA 07:55, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

the name Republic of Macedonia is recognized by more than 100 nations, and Skopje has shown ready to compromise on all fronts. So the Greek government uses FYROM, that's great. That still doesn't impinge on the self-designation of the RoM, and common use in English. The naming dispute, and continuing Greek sulking, should of course be fully documented here. On Greek Wikipedia, I suppose, FYROM should be used throughout. But it is not warranted that every mention of the RoM on English Wikipedia is accompanied by Greek point-scoring along the lines of "the Republic of Macedonia (which is a name that is absolutely hated by Greeks, just so you know)". As long as there could be concern that the name implies territorial ambitions, I could fully understand the Greek position. After the RoM explicitly forgoes territorial claims, and showed the good grace to join the UN as FYROM, I really don't see what the hell the Greeks still want from them. The PRC doesn't like the term Republic of China, and that's still the title of a Wikipedia article. God forbid that a billion of Chinese start spamming us the way the Greeks seem to think it necessary. I fully agree that "Macedonia" should be used for the geographical region, just like "Republic of India" is not identical to "India". But "Republic of Macedonia" is completely unambiguous, since Greek Macedonia is not a republic, but a conglomerate of three prefectures (i.e. "Macedonia" isn't even a term used in the political division of Greece). This is all childish nationalism, as evidenced by the endless droning on about Alexander the Great. Of course "Makedonia" has a Greek etymology. So does Naples. And Istanbul. Why don't the Greek nationalists get their panties all knotted over the Italians daring to name their Italian, non-Hellenic town after a Greek colony, or worse!! the Turks naming their capital, which they stole from the Greeks (the bastards!! just like that rogue Alexander stole it from the Thracians) after a disfigured Greek phrase, I wonder? dab (ᛏ) 09:56, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Dbachmann I 'm glad you are more familiar with the facts than other people involved. Wikipedia is first of all for reporting the facts. Facts: 1) Macedonia is a wide geographic region. 2) You said the RoM explicitly forgoes territorial claims, I suppose you refere to their constitutional change: before that change they were talking about unredeemed Macedonians and in this talk page you can see that some of them still believe that the Greek perfecture Macedonia is enslaved. 3) Anyone who studies history can give many examples of two big forces starting wars to help minor forces. Since you referred Alexander you'll probably remember that Philip had acted this way once. 4) Even if FYROM is recognized as RoM or even Macedonia by the UN, that won't change the fact that there are also other guys who are called Macedonians. MATIA 10:24, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

sure, "Macedonia" is a geographical region, like "the Balkans", "the Alps", or "Scandinavia". the "Republic of Macedonia" is a political entity whose territory is not identical to "Macedonia", much like with India. "Macedonians" are people inhabiting said region, which at present is divided between two sovereign political entities, and they speak various languages, predominantly Greek and Slavic, with an Albanian minority. If we replace this emotionally charged terminology with terms like "red" and "blue", it would all be very elementary set theory. I see the problem, of course. While Greek Macedonians will be Greek citizens, Slavic Macedonians will be RoM citizens, and the common adjective will more likely be simple "Macedonian" than "RoMian". Much like Pakistani avoid calling themselves "Indians". This is not a logically 'deep' problem, however, since it will be mostly clear from the context what is meant (much like with Georgian), and in cases of misunderstandings, disambiguation is easy. I cannot help the impression that the debate is not really about possible misunderstandings, or factual stuff like territories, but pure and simply about people on both sides of the Greek/RoM border disliking each other. I'm sorry, but that is really their personal prerogative; They can dislike each other as much as they like as far as I'm concerned. We can even write an article about it. But let not these emotions paralize English Wikipedia, which is simply reporting the state of affairs. dab (ᛏ) 14:27, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

I would find it hard to disagree with you about how Wikipedia is reporting the FYROM/RoM affair per se. What I would like to hear from you is your opinion about the Macedonian/Macedonian Slavs dichotomy, and the usage of the adjective "Macedonian", plain, no qualifications, in FYROM/RoM-related matters. What this comes down to is popularity vs. accuracy. Some editors and admins evoke the "Google test", as a reflector of common usage. If we can imagine a 17th century Wikipedia, Galileo would have been a POVer and his original research would have been unacceptable. A simple "Googlius" test would have destroyed him. Chronographos 14:53, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

After the RoM explicitly forgoes territorial claims, and showed the good grace to join the UN as FYROM, I really don't see what the hell the Greeks still want from them.

You're well informed but you're missing some crucial episodes. It was the Greek opposition which forced FYROM to change its flag from the Vergina star and drop its land claims. The same opposition forced the UN to come up with the temporary name of FYROM. You think that RoM and "macedonian nationality" has no land claims just because Gligorov said so? Prior to Greek opposition the Macedonian Slavs were priting money and stamps with the White tower of Thessaloniki on them, do you think that changed overnight because Greeks decided that they didn't like it? It was only last year that CIA (or some other international affair US body) changed its maps in the Balkans from marking Greek Macedonia as an occupied region. Greek politicians are in general incapable and stupid, but they're not retarded enough to think that FYROM has no land claims. If Greece accepts the name RoM and the nationality "Macedonian", then it will have to accept an ethnic group (no matter how small it is) that's ethnically "Macedonian" in a Greek region named "Macedonia", which would make Greece a country of phenomenal stupidity. I mean how more obvious can a land claim be? And what about the Bulgarian position? "Hey those people are Bulgarians and speak Bularians, but we recognise the name Macedonia anyway, not because we want a share of FYROM and the Aegean sea or anything like that, but only because we're very nice". And apart from that, what makes you think that FYROM compromised on its name? The new proposition "Rupublika Makedonija-Skopje" was rejected, Macedonian Slavs are actually trying to monopolise the name. Give me a break dab, international affairs are not as simple as to be solved in the discussion page of a wiki-article. The fact is that most non-Greeks don't give a crap about what FYROM calls itself, so they prefer to just frown upon the whole issue and think of it as the nationalism of two undeveloped Eastern European countries. As for the example of Naples (Νεάπολις), that's about a Latinized name of a Greek colony and I don't see what's wrong with it. And as for Constantinople (which happens to be my birthplace), you won't find any Greeks in the world calling it Istanbul between each other, but that's also irrelevant for obvious reasons. Ancient Byzantium by the way was founded as a Greek colony, it wasn't stolen by any Thracians. The Macedonian naming issue is not simply about Greek nationalism as most people find easier to think. Miskin 18:26, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

It's always easy to pontificate on how others should deal with their problems, especially when you don't have to live with the consequences. I myself do it all the time. Τι να πει κανείς για το μουνί της αλληνής;--Theathenae 19:17, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Miskin is partly right: FYROM has rejected not only the "Republic of Macedonia - Skopje" compromise, but also the "Republic of Nova Makedonija"/"Republic of New Macedonia" and the "Republic of Upper Macedonia" ones, all offered to them by UN mediator Matthew Nimitz and preliminarily accepted by Greece on the condition that the other side accepted them too. Chronographos 23:37, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

I am not trying to solve international disputes, and I accept that Greece will probably refer to the country as FYROM till kingdom come. I also have no doubt that manuy FYROMian nationalists are incredible imbeciles who want to march on Thessaloniki, and believe that Alexander was a Slav. So some reservations from the Greek side are probably warranted. The fact is, though, that the rest of the world doesn't care shit about how many rays the sun on the RoM flag has. As for the RoM annexing even one foot of Greek land, I guess they know that half of Greece will march on Skopje with pitchforks if they do, not to mention the international scandal, Greek delegates throwing hysterical fits in Brussles until full EU boycott --- it just won't happen, RoM leaders cannot be that stupid, and have shown they are not that stupid by amendin their constitution. Or, if RoM does annex a couple of acres at some point, it will at least be a dispute about real territory, not just about something lame like the number of rays on a flag. All I am saying is that "Republic of Macedonia" is commonly accepted as unambiguous and unproblematic the world over. As for the adjective, while mostly clear from context, I do believe that the Greek concerns should be honoured on Wikipedia by allowing disambiguation of every occurrence of "Macedonian" referring to times after 1991. I.e. every use of "Macedonian" that really refers to "RoM territory", "RoM citizenship" etc., should be so disambiguated. How is that for a policy proposal? Wikipedia will call the country "Republic of Macedonia", but all RoM citizens etc. will be referred to as "citizen of the Republic of Macedonia" vel sim., rather than merely "Macedonian". dab (ᛏ) 20:16, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Try this for starters: "Culture of the Republic of Macedonia" redirects to "Culture of Macedonia" (!), which actually refers to the "Culture (sic) of the Republic of Macedonia" (!!!), which in its turn is a horrid article chock-full of people and institutions noone has ever heard of. Chronographos 23:37, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Dab I think you misunderstood, it wasn't just Macedonian Slav extremists who wanted to march into Thessaloniki or anything like that, it was the actual FYROM state that printed bills with the White Tower of Thessaloniki on its currency [2]. Miskin 16:34, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

I understand. There is a slight difference between depicting a tourist landmark (and I must say that shabby old tower is not really worth an invasion :p ), and ordering a tank batallion to the border. And the White Tower business ended in 1995, together with the Vergina Sun and stuff. I recognize the dispute was heated 1991-1995, but that's over now, isn't it. dab (ᛏ) 18:48, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

I am 68 years old and I never had that bill you are talking about in my hands, although every bread I ate and every milk I drank in the last 15 years was bought with Macedonian money (or US dollars, before the 1991st, while I lived there). I can not be sure that no-one ever suggested it, but I can bet my life it was never accepted for using.

All I read on this web page is full of nationalism and fake information. The Greeks say they are afraid of Macedonia attacking them, but actually Macedonia never attacked anyone… ever. We were 500 years under the Turks, longer than any other nation in the region, just because we like no wars. Not because we are afraid… because we wish no bad to anyone, not even to Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbs who occupied and separated our land and made very bad to our people.

Talking about the names suggested to Macedonia as compromise… do not forget that Macedonia made a compromise just by starting this negotiations. No other land in the world negotiated about their own name. And do not forget that Macedonia accepts Greece (and eventually Cyprus) using any name they pick for our country. But, no-one can expect us to change our name just because someone objects it.

I will not die till I see my land finally free of all the nationalistic claims towards its territory. I will not die till I see that the rest of the world finally sees the truth about this piece of land and these people. Our neighbors who supposed to be our brothers turned into our gravediggers. But, I won’t just die and fall in that grave just because you wished for.

You mentioned CIA. Of course they will mark Aegean Macedonia as occupied territory, because that is what it is. Things changed now and Greece will probably keep that territory forever, till the end of times. But, the fact stays that they got that land by occupying it.

I lost my father and brother defending our land and identity from the Bulgarians. I lost my home in Voden (which is now Edessa in Greece), being run away because my family didn’t wanted to accept a Greek name and speak the Greek language. This summer, after 55 years I was finally let to enter Greece and see my cousins and nephews that left living in Greece. Even now, in 2005th there was a police at our family reunion and they did not let us sing Macedonian songs. They only let the music to be played, only because we had several journalists from US, Taiwan and Sweden with us, but they did not allow us singing.

Old and weak as this, I would fight anyone who wants to change the truth about us. God is great and he won’t let us lose our national identity. He won’t let lies being spread around. The old Macedonian saying says: “The lie has short legs”. The legs of your lies just started to show how short they are. This is just a start towards the truth and the world will see by itself what truth is. Besides all the lies you spread here, you can see that smart people seek for the truth. Saying something illogical won’t make it become truth, and they know when something has no logic.

God help us to get out of this mess and become good and respectful neighbors. Real neighbors close as brothers, as we should be. Amen.

The Sterbinster strikes again. Where's my violin?--Theathenae 04:30, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

See FYROMIAN nationalistic map of Florina!

Florina als YUGO land:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/macedonian/specials/1317_mac_minority/

Vergina 06:48, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

If this Of course they will mark Aegean Macedonia as occupied territory, because that is what it is. Things changed now and Greece will probably keep that territory forever, till the end of times. But, the fact stays that they got that land by occupying it. isn't teritorial-claim then what is it? It's very interesting to see the wolf who has disguised himself as a sheep. MATIA 09:18, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

I am from UK and I just can not believe that Greeks are so ignorant :) You are far far away from western europe, let alone UK :) I have been to Macedonia,Bulgaria,Greece,Serbia.. and Greece is by far the most unwelcoming place to be. Regarding history, stop reading your own books and see how many people there speak the language of you northern neighbour.

Fullstop.

white.s

I think comments like above of white.S are almost racial generalization, and should be deleted. Maybe the unwelcoming experience were just reflecting your atittude. I surely agree with UK being very far away from western europe:) Maroxelois 17:18, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

The neutrality of this article

The boundary of the region are unclear

• This TEXT must be changed:
  • Macedonia is a geographical and historical region of the Balkan peninsula in south-eastern Europe with an area of about 67,000 square kilometres and a population of 4,76 million. The territory corresponds to the basins of (from west to east) the Aliákmon, Vardar/Axios and Struma/Strymon rivers (of which the Axios/Vardar drains by far the largest area) and the plains around Thessaloniki and Serres.

Vilayet of Kosovo never belonged Macedonia

Macedonia has not this boundary as well as Fyrom indicates! Cities FYROMs as well as Skopje ace Uskub(Capital of Vilayet Kosovo),Kratovo, Kocani, Stip, Tetovo,Kumanovo, and others belonged to the Kosovo Vilayet. Vilayet Kosovo never belonged Macedonia. Therefore, FYROM cannot possess 40% Macedonian territory.

• The vilayet of Kosovo:Demographic
  • Serbs
  • Turks
  • Albanians
  • Greeks
  • Jews
  • Gipsies
  • Had on no case Macedonian Slavs
  • I avoid numbers to indicate!

Who told this kind of stupidity.Macedonia land in Ottoman Empire has tree Vilayets.Vilayet of Skopje, Vilayet of Bitola and Vilayet of Solun(Thessaloniki).By the way.Read somthing for God sake!

Macedonia divided is incorrect

1912, is divided the osmanische zone, which bordered at the existing countries Yugoslavia, Greece and Bulgaria. To write a "Macedonia divided", is therefore incorrect.

• This TEXT must be changed:
  • The region is divided between Greece, with more than half the area and population, split between the three peripheries of Central Macedonia, West Macedonia, and East Macedonia and Thrace; the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia^¤, with around 40%; and Bulgaria, with less than a tenth, in Blagoevgrad Province.

Demographics

Until 600 after Christ Greeks.From 600 after Christ, also slavic peoples appear at the edge Macedonians. Slav peoples:Serbs and Bulgars.Before 1945 did not give Macedonian Slavs.

Within the text they have to be diffirentiated though. Ancient Macedonians is proper for Greko-Macedonian period, as for later Macedonian Slavs are correct. We cannot use "Macedonians" though whole the text without confusing absolutelly difient cultures and languages. Armancho 01:27, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Concerning history of Macedonia

• These here are not subjects for article Macedonia! belonging here the article Republic of Macedonia
  • 3.5 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia#Independence_of_the_Republic_of_Macedonia
  • 3.6 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia#Controversy:_Republic_of_Macedonia_and_Greece
  • 3.7 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia#Controversy:Republic_of_Macedonia_and_Bulgaria

Vergina 10:47, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Frankly, dear friend, your English is so atrocious that I cannot even follow the thread of your thoughts. I doubt anyone else can, for that matter. You are not doing your views any justice by writing in indignation either. I suggest you run what you want to write by an accomplished speaker of English. Greek translation of the above follows: Ειλικρινά, αγαπητέ φίλε, τα αγγλικά σας είναι τόσο φρικτά, που να μη μπορώ να ακολουθήσω το νήμα των σκέψεών σας. Αμφιβάλλω και αν κάποιος άλλος μπορεί. Επίσης αδικείτε τις απόψεις σας γράφοντας με τόση αγανάκτηση. Σας προτείνω να ελέγχετε ό,τι γράφετε με κάποιον που μιλά καλά αγγλικά. Chronographos 11:56, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

φρικτος "Schauer, das Aufschaudern od. Wassergekräusel einer Meeresfläche, das Sträuben der Haare (ep. poet. seit Il., auch Hp.; vgl. Leumann Hom. Wörter 62 A. 30 mit Lit.). Thematisch erweitert φρίκη f. `ds.', auch `Frostschauer, Frost, Schauder vor Furcht' (ion. att.; zur Bed. bei Hp. Strömberg Wortstud. 80f.)." [3] :) dab (ᛏ) 14:39, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

There is a far easier way to translate is: ask me. It literally means "what makes your hair stand on end". A meaning-based translation in German would be "ungeheuerlich". Chronographos 23:14, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Human Rights Servey on Wikipedia (The final post of I_sterbinski)

[copy paste of text on User:I sterbinski removed by dab (ᛏ) ]

I sterbinski 23:54, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

I hadn't laughed this hard since the last time I saw the "Daily Show" with Jon Stewart. Of course, Jon Stewart, unlike you all, has lots more substance than meets the eye. I am, like, so disappointed you will not keep posting. Shame, shame, shame, cryin' shame .... Chronographos 01:43, 28 August 2005 (UTC) (May I suggest a prestigious, peer-reviewed journal where your cutting-edge "researches" will be right at home?)

omfg, you really do get all sorts, on Wikipedia, don't you :) this is part of why it is so entertaining.

We will now reveal that behind the humble pseudonym "Dbachmann" is a secret board of Noble prize laureates working undercover to reduce over-awing effect that revealing our true names would have. We must say that we are pleased with the debate culture on Wikipedia, and we think we are allowed to hint at the possibility that Jimbo Wales and certain other Wikipedians will be mentioned favourably in our report to the Noble prize committee. dab (ᛏ) 07:22, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

I will need to print this thing and frame it. I have a golden picture frame I can use - all I need to do now is find a printer that can print on parchment. Because ordinary paper is just not good enough. Epson, Canon, Hewlett-Packard, Lexmark, where are you you pitiful two-bit amateurs? Chronographos 14:06, 28 August 2005 (UTC) (Dab, does WP have a section on all-time-wackiest contributions? This "secret human rights organization" really takes the cake!)

We have BJAODN... --cesarb 15:28, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

You mean I have managed to make it into an international human rights report? This is the most excitement I've had in years! Will my crimes against humanity earn me a free flight to The Hague soon?--Theathenae 07:35, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, except it'll be a one-way flight, buster, so say your prayers! Chronographos 14:12, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Till the day before I thought it was only a bunch of school kids, fooling around. Now I'm wondering if I've just read the English teacher who caught them. MATIA 09:43, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

He is copy-pasting it everywhere despite the fact that he was criticized for spamming before. He really likes grafiti. MATIA 09:52, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Who in the hell is I sterbinski and why did he contact me ???? And why is he (or should I say they) so obsessed with the NPOV of Macedonia ?? SWD316 (talk to me)

Because that's what he is being paid to do? (just a thought) Chronographos 22:35, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Oh, don't think so. Probably MATIA is right it seems more like "bunch of school kids, fooling around". Let's return to discussion over Macedonia. Armancho 01:16, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Unprotected

It's been weeks, no ongoing discussion. --Tony Sidaway^Talk 08:57, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

I would like to say as Greek that if the still call that territory Makedonia, then our endovour as Greeks is to take back what is ours and expell those Slavs from our land. So war upon them. Obliterate them! Wipe'em off the face of Earth!!! NOW and in the name of god, we shall see a clear Έλ-λας, aka, Land of light.

Any time, bitch. It would be a pleasure to kick some idiotic nationalistic ass as yours (All the respect to the rest of you, guys).

What a loony-bin .... Chronographos 01:09, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

I think that's 2nd degree material. Miskin 11:48, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

I really didn't expected so genocidic words to be said from a person who belongs to a nation from where the SOPHIA comes from. I think that is not very clever. On the contrary - it's totally s t u p e d and f o o l i s h.

SOPHIA is now the Queen of Spain and should be referred to as such. She may be a nice person but her birth family was nothing of the sort. Chronographos 19:26, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

I don't think this is the SOPHIA I'm talking about. It's more like WISDOM, like in PHILO-SOPHY.

Well, isn't that special ... Chronographos 09:16, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

I see you know the english Wikipedia well, Timewriter. But, what I cannot understand is what connection has the Church lady with this?

Prima vista none whatsoever, dear "anonymous". Chronographos 12:06, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

OK, if you don't want to talk, dear Nonanonymous.

We will get Solun for our capital!1945 we were stoped,but we'll det it.One Deuchland sentens sad ,,Langzam,langzam, uber zucker.-Slowly,slowly but for sure!

Relax, my friend. It is truth that the Aegean part of Macedonia was dominantly Macedonian till after the Greek Civil War, but now the things changed there. We all know that Greece won that part in a war, signing a treaty that last just for some couple of years more. But, as I said, we should not use the same non-human methods as they did in the past.

The nowday reality is that Aegean Macedonia is dominantly Greek. But, there are also several ethnic minorities that live there, but that have no basic human rights.

The modern idea od the European Union is Europe without borders. Greece will have to (sooner or latter) acnowledge the minorities living there (between all, the Macedonian minority too), but one fact stays... Aegean Macedonia will stay Greek teritory and is worthless to spill blood for that. If some of them used those methods to get that part, we should not get on their level. God will judge the sinners (he already does)...

NOTE: All my respect to the Greek people who have no conection to the brutal assimilation process of the Macedonians in Greece. Macedonian 01:44, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

I Sterbinski

I am so glad to have someone like you around here...

Well, I see that you can't handle with so many ,,propaganda boys and girls", so I thought you might need some backup :-) --Bomac 10:50, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm tired of my links being called propoganda and being deleted

http://www.mhrmc.ca/ Macedonian Human Right Movement International http://www.mhrmc.ca/publications/ Macedonian History Literature

I don't see any reason for these links to be deleted as they are informative...

The first link is redundant. +MATIA ☎ 09:29, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

No it isn't. You are obviously trying to supress certain facts. I suggest that we also add the following links:

• Greece: Report on the Macedonian minority
• Greece: Inhuman refusal of entry and denaturalization of ethnic Macedonians in Greece
• Macedonian diaspora leaders met UN envoy Matthew Nimetz

They are very informative and give an accurate picture of the status of the Macedonians in Greek Macedonia. REX 10:45, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

It is since it points to the SAME site. Ryan Norton ^{T | @ | C} 10:54, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

REX, copy-pasting the same links repeatedly on various pages, apart from proving your circular logic (did you read what was this sub-section about? I doubt that), it is also on the edge of wikispam. +MATIA ☎ 10:57, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

MATIA seems to think that by accusing me of circular logic that he will change the truth. He is sadly mistaken. REX 11:25, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Also somewhat circular logic =p Tev 08:24, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

POV dispute?

There seems to be a long protracted edit war of the NPOV tag here... what are the issues? I tried to read the talk page but its a jumble and I don't understand a lot of it to be frank. Ryan Norton ^{T | @ | C} 09:47, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Dear RN I don't know about the tag, and I don't know how Macedonia was moved to Macedonia (region) during the last days, while this is not how it used to be (check ChrisO here). Macedonia related articles are somewhat controversial. See also Talk:Macedonian Slavs and Wikipedia talk:Naming conflict (the sections with comments regarding these issues). +MATIA ☎ 10:38, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

One should also read Talk:Macedonian Slavs/Poll. +MATIA ☎ 21:03, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

According to you MATIA, why it is controversal? What is the thing that makes you think that these articles are controversal? Bomac 13:32, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

It is controversial because the Greeks are seeking to strip their northern neighbour of their identity. Greece is never likely to accept the fact that other nations have a right to the name Macedonia as well, so they are coming up with artificial name like Macedonian Slavs, Skopyani and FYROM. I just hope that this thing will all end soon. The UN is useless in that respect; I thought that they were supposed to solve disputes! REX 14:57, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

I have mentioned some wiki-links that any neutral might check to understand these issues. During April 2005, Nimitz (UN envoy) proposed the name Republic of Makedonia-Skopje for official use. Greece accepted this proposal as a base for negotiations. The goverment of FYROM rejected the proposal after few days and proposed (the same proposal FYROM did before) that the international community should use Macedonia and Greece could use Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) (these can be confirmed by searching any news agency, I remember having mentioned it somewhere before but no link right now). Today I've read in the newspaper (that can be read in greek at the Macedonian Press Agency) that mr Buckovski had a meeting with mr Tony Blair during the last days. Blair (who has proven in the past that he is not pro-Greek, and for sure he is not a far right greek extremist), told Mr Buckovski that "η εκκρεμότητα της ονομασίας μπορεί να μην επηρεάσει την απόφαση της ΕΕ για την απόδοση προς την ΠΓΔΜ, καθεστώτος υποψήφιας προς ένταξη χώρας, θα έχει όμως αρνητικό αντίκτυπο για την περαιτέρω προσέγγιση της ΠΓΔΜ με την Κοινότητα, (σ.σ. εννοεί την απόφαση για ημερομηνία ενταξιακών διαπραγματεύσεων, εφόσον η ΠΓΔΜ λάβει καθεστώς υποψήφιας προς ένταξη χώρας), αν τα Σκόπια δεν δείξουν εποικοδομητικότερη διάθεση για την εξεύρεση λύσης στο θέμα της ονομασίας." and in (roughly translated) english: "the absense of result about the name negotiations may not influence the decision of EU to give to FYROM, status of candidate, it will have however negative impact for the further approach of FYROM with the European Community, (meaning the decision on date of negotiations to become a EU member, provided that FYROM becomes a candidate), if the Former Yougoslave Republic of Macedonia does not show more edifying desire to solve the naming issue." +MATIA ☎ 18:15, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

I have mentioned some wiki-links that any neutral might check to understand these issues. Err no Matia, you haven't. I cannot find any. Your link is just something irrelevant that you are trying to pass off as evidence. As far as I can see it's none of the Greek government's business what this country is called. The Republic of China disputes the People's Republic of China's legitimacy and vice-versa; why aren't they controversial issues? Just because Mr Blair doesn't agree with your government's goals, that doesn't mean that he is anti-Greek. I think that you should not try to mislead people. No good can come of it. GrandfatherJoe 20:59, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

A note: life is not binary, facts are not yes and no. When I wrote about Blair that he is not pro greek, I didn't implied he is anti-greek. My characterization of Mr Blair not being pro greek, could also mean that he is neutral. But my personal opinion is that Mr Blair is pro-UK, and that doesn't mean that he is pro-greek. +MATIA ☎ 13:48, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Guess what! REX and GrandfatherJoe resemble even in their arguments. The links GrandFatherREX, I meant Joe, were posted on my first post (10 hours ago) on this sub-section, the hot-word you should search for is "see also". PS using a sockpuppet account while in 3RR block is bad. +MATIA ☎ 21:05, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Actually the links were decent enough. What about "Greek Macedonians" and "Slavic Macedonians" instead of the current way, or is that the whole problem? Maybe "Greek speaking Macedonians" and "Slavic speaking Macedonians"... :)? Ryan Norton ^{T | @ | C} 21:18, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

I support this proposal.--Wiglaf 14:18, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

What is the proposal?--Theathenae 14:33, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

I support Ryan Norton's proposal, but only with these small modifications: Macedonians and Greek Macedonians or Macedonian speaking Macedonians and Greek speaking macedonians. Bomac 14:35, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Great, another neutral engages in this debate! People, we really need you! :) I support RN's proposal, but I disagree with the Slavic Macedonians label (isn't this the same as Macedonian Slavs?). RN, please see the Talk:Macedonian Slavs and Wikipedia:Naming conflict guideline for the reasons why I made the previous claim. You can also see the Talk:Macedonian Slavs/Naming for a great overview of the dispute (a bit vandalized in the "options" and "resources" sections) - there (at the "resources" section) you have a list of all of the encyclopedias that refer to this ethnic group as Macedonians (all of them, except MSN Encarta), all the international organizations that refer to it as Macedonians (actually all of them refer to it as Macedoinans), and the review of the major media outlets as well - they tend to use Macedonians when referring to this ethnic group (BBC officially apologized for using the Macedonian Slavs, and similar terms for it). To avoid ambiguity - my proposal is to move the article Macedonian Slavs to Macedonians (ethnic group), Macedonians (nationality), Macedonians (people) or a similar options - this acceptable even to some Greeks, and there were a number of neutral proponents for this at the relevant talk page. That would my proposal for the name of the article. Within text, if the meaning is visible, we can use the Macedonians, or the ethnic Macedonians term (this is the only group that uses this term in ethnic terms, the Greek Helsinki uses this term as well). If there is really a need to disambiguate, we can use "Slavic speaking Macedonians", or "Macedonian speaking Macedonians", although, I must admit, the latter formulation sounds a bit strange, although it is a valid fact. So what's your opinion about this? --FlavrSavr 20:00, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree with the proposal with the exception that the term Slavic Macedonian is inaccurate because there are more than one Slavic ethnic group in Macedonia (region) and therefore it is misleading. I accept the terms Slavic/Macedonian speaking Macedonians and ethnic Macedonians. The vast majority of sources and Wikipedians engaging in this debate seem to be agreeing with it. Why isn't it being used then? REX 20:33, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

speaking

While this proposal was in good faith, it can't be used. According to Macedonian Slav perspective (the links are on the buttom of the wiki), the Macedonian Slavs have nothing to do with Greeks. The proposal ("Greek speaking Macedonians" and "Slavic speaking Macedonians") can't be used because someone will think that they are the same ethnic group, some of them hellenophone and the rest slavophone, and it's obvious that this would be misleading. +MATIA ☎ 21:00, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't know if it would be better the Greek Macedonians to stay as is, and to change only the other. +MATIA ☎ 21:11, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps I haven't mentioned it before and I apologise about that: one should also read Talk:Macedonian Slavs/Poll and have in his/her mind the comments and the result. +MATIA ☎ 21:02, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

The newest proposal of the United Nations

I would just like to inform you that the United Nations gave another proposal for the naming dispute.

The proposal includes these topics:

1) "Republic of Macedonia" for any country that chooses that name (despite the Greek presure, in this moment about 110 countries already use this name).

2)"Republic of Macedonia - Skopje" for Greece (and maybe Cyprus)

3)"Republika Makedonija" for the international organizations, but just until 2008th. After that the use of the natural name "Republic of Macedonia" is promoted.

4) No one has exclusive rights over the term Macedonia.

This is an official proposal of the United Nations, but Greece refused it only couple of hours after receiving it. This shows how serious they are.

On the other hand, the Macedonian side organized intensive meetings and forums and today they accepted the proposal as a base for the final deal.

It is very easy to negotiate about someone elses name and someone elses identity. How would any of you feel if your whole identity and existance is denied by someone more powerful than you?

Just read the page of Macedonia. Anyone would assume that the modern Macedonians are creation of Tito, but they are basically Bulgarians. Just a reminder to all of you... Year before Tito got in power, in 1941st, when Nazi Bulgaria occupied Macedonia, the Macedonians organized and fighted against the Bulgarian occupation. Why would they fight the Bulgarians, if they were Bulgarians? The claims on the Macedonia page about this part of the history are completely senceless and supported only by the Bulgarian and Greek nationalists.

Another interesting fact. The Bulgarian prime minister, Mr. Serge Stanishev recognized and again confirmed his Macedonian origin. Just few days ago, during his meeting with the Macedonian prime minister Vlado Buchkovski he said that except Bulgarian, he also has Macedonian, Russian and German blood in his vains. He also said that his grandparents (the Macedonian part of the family) runned away from Kukush (today Kilkis, in northern Greece) in 1913th and setled in Dupnica. I know that someone will now try to change this fact and say that Mr. Stanishev was talking about the regions. So, it is necesary to explain that Mr. Stanishev did not reffer to the regional origin, because he mentioned another nationalities (Bulgarian, German and Russian) in the same context.

I will sumarise... the present text of Macedonia and Macedonia related topics is clear Greek and Bulgarian POV push, all in favor of denying the existance of separate Macedonian nation and history. It is a discrase for Wikipedia and its NPOV to promote so strong nationalism and denyals.

These Greek and Bulgarian extremist denyals and POV pushings are not new and they are happening for centuries. But, slowly the truth will come out. Just to mention the newest book "Macedonian Knot" by Hans Lothar Stepan (the former German ambasador in Macedonia), where for the first time some of the hidden German documents concerning the Macedonian division during the Balkan wars are revealed. Those documents clearly show the truth about Macedonia and the Greek/Bulgarian assimilation of the region. Macedonian 19:02, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

I would just like to mention the only example in the world where some nation is denied to use its historical name. Wikipedia is clearly used by some Greek extremist to promote their position of not recognizing the Macedonian nation.

Whatever the history is and whatever is the way you interpret it, it is a fact that the Macedonian nation and ethnicity are reality in todays world and the name "Macedonians" is the only name they identify with (A name supported by every goverment (except Greece and Cyprus), international organizations, encyclopedias etc.)

Can any neutral administrator explain me why Wikipedia is supporting the Greek nationalistic claims, despite the world accepted facts? Macedonian 19:10, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

One clarification: the new proposal of Mr Nimetz (United Nations) has not been made public. So it's only leaks we hear. It was however a complete flip-flop, as the previous proposal was accepted by the greek side and rejected by FyroM only a few month ago. Furthermore the 9 of november being close makes the timing suspicious. One very strange thing about the non exclusive use of term macedonia: is that it would create havoc for products from greek macedonia (appelations) being confused from the ones from vardar macedonia (posession is 9/10 of the law..., and (greek) macedonians have product appelations of the region. Why people from FyroM want to be "plain / The only and true" macedonias is quite offensive to negate the identity of others. I sure belive God deslikes stealing the identity of others, even if it's for stabilizing your country. BTW I see the vardar macedonia on wiki is redirected to "Republic of Macedonia", why is it undesireable/offensive to be Vardar ( = North)(geographic term) Macedonian? Did Mr Nimetz ever tried that? Finaly it's not the only example of this kind of dispute: China and Taiwan (past), also Luxemburg (state and province in belgium) is mentioned, but the analogy is poor, as Luxemburg never conquered the known world nor tryed to deny the identity of the belgian province. The name macedonia brings to my mind the story of King Solomon and the two mothers claim of the same child... but this time it's not a material dispute. if only : Macenians and Donians :) Bar the very emotional arguments of citizens of RoM i don't see this article waranting POV! I haven't seen any material argument against the current Macedonia entry. Maroxelois 19:10, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

The text is made public. Actually, my neighboor (door to door) who is a leader of a smaller political party in Republic of Macedonia was a part of the meeting where the Macedonian political parties together with the goverment and the president were talking about the proposal, with having it on their hands. Anyway, the proposals can be seen in most of the major newspapers in Macedonia and Greece.

Another thing that I must react at is the senceless statements which say that the adjective Macedonian is used by Greece on their products. That is complete lie. The Greek products have to clearly say "Made in Greece", which is a part of the law that has to be respected by anyone who exports good from Greece.

No one is stealing your identity, because your identity is Greek. Maybe you are born in Macedonia, but there is no Greek in the world who will say that he is Macedonian. Actually, all the lies about Greeks using the name Macedonia started just some 30 years ago. Untill then the name "Macedonia" was even forbiten to be used. Even the region Macedonia in Greece was called "Northern Greece". The world historians know that and you can not hide that from them.

Please see this, neighboor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Macedonia_%28Slav%29#What_is_the_real_deal_behind_the_naming_problem.3F

On the other hand, the Macedonian identity is the only identity we had (no matter did that start 2500 years ago, in the 6th, 10th, 15th or 19th century, or even in 1945th). That is the only truth that everyone knows and noone can avoid it.

And just to remind you... Macedonia NEVER asked Greece to change the name of its northern province. Macedonia NEVER asked Greeks to stop using the name Macedonia. Greece was the one who started all the problem. And, after the things that happened in the last 14 years and especially after what will happen in the following 3-4 years, it should be very clear to you that the world is not so stupid to swallow the Big Greek Fat Lie!!! Macedonian 00:14, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

I am sure that the majority of northern greece DO identify themselfs as macedonians AND greeks (or vice-versa: the order is doubtful). and thus there is a naming problem. By claiming the opposite you are deduling yourself (?) or wiki reader I am not sure.

You are obviously wrong. This what you say actually makes me beleive that you do not live in Greece (because you are very wrong). Am I right? Macedonian 04:14, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

ok pick your choise about the century... of your alledged macedonian nationality... but you see it does matter, to be what you claim to be, not just because you WANT it. Expediency is a very dangerous mortgage of a states' life.

Funny you mentioned the middle ages. if you watch less "big fat stupid movies" and read a bit wikipedia, you will come across Basil II[4], emperor of (greek cultured byzantium) inogureur of the Macedonian dynasty, who as you know expelled bulgarian AND serbian domination of macedonian province in greek lands. Must be strange to have the macedonian dynasty expelling your alledged macedonian ancestors... from macedonia no? (rhetorical question [sic]). I am not surprised you claim an iffy link to Alexanders' macedonia (too long ago, more chanche to pass your lies), but I am surprised why the greeks forget their direct lineage to the macedonian and greek byzantium, of not so far back: in the midlle ages. This romantic antiquity is really so permeable...

Talking about history which was written and latter read by great influence of Greece. Having on mind all the problems that you make to the modern Macedonians nowdays (in 2005th) and all your tries to assimilate or ignore them makes me wonder what all was happening in the middle ages that you mentioned. Macedonian 04:14, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

A small point is for product nameing: there are reconganised "appelations" in EU refering to the place of origin, being a region in a state. So confusion is possible. And I think the current EU attitude here in brussels, considering the naming issue a bi-latteral problem, is at least irresponsible.

If the greeks pose their veto very few will be happy... Am not sure if they actually can apply a veto on the preadmission procedure 9/Nov.

They can not. They can only make us get in EU by the name of "Former yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", but they are obligated not to make problems in the EU integration of Macedonia. Any breaking of the deal that we made 10 years ago will automatically put Greece in position of no escape, because (just to remind you) that more countries reconize Macedonia under its constitutional name than under the name that Greece of forcing (including the biggest world powers). Macedonian 04:14, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

btw I'm not your neighbour thankfully. And of course Fyrom never asked greeks to change the name of greek region of macedonia, this would only water down your outlandish dreams of annexing it (being true to your true ancestors traditions). Your constitution I believe forbids it, but it allows for accomodating constitutional changes in the future I see.

I already doubted that you are my neighboor. That is why you know so little about the real situation. Do you really think you can learn enought about this problem by reading books or newspapers? Macedonian

A final thought about the reccuring theme of the exchange of populations in the 1920's and later 1940's actually the idea of it created stable nation states like bulgaria greece and turkey. and it provided a norwegian national with the Nobel prize for peace. So the feeble minoriry of slavs in greece should be considered lucky to survive and not be the object of bogroms and expaltions like the greeks suffered in turkey 1955. A similar ouranio-toxo in turkey would be crashed in a day. Excuse my relativism above, but a disloyal minority is something you can easily relate to ... probably no? (hint Kosovo) Maroxelois 20 October 2005 (UTC)

The Macedonians living in Greece already proved its loyality to Greece and keep proving it. The Aegean part of Macedonia is Greek for almost 100 years and it will obviously stay thay way, probably forever. And I do not object it. Only thing I want is my identity not to be ignored anywhere in the world (including Greece). The history of my nation (no matter did it start 15, 60, 100, 1100 or 2500 years ago) can not be seen as threat to Greece. Especially having on mind that a Balkany is not so big teritory, but many nations live here. Therefore, a big part of the history of these nations have to be shared because of a simple fact: the forming of the modern nationalities, including Greek, Bulgarian and Macedonian was much latter than we would like to accept.

Please read "To Vima"'s comment about this issue from 2-3 days ago. The problem that we (Macedonia and Greece) have is enormously stupid and based on unrealistic fear of each other. Macedonian 04:14, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

OK Im macedonian ,i feel that way i always felt.I have never iinsoltet any other about its national beliving.SO i want that to stay with me.I dont know and it can never be proven wather there are macedonians,greeks or bulgarians if we just put a question mark by the name.SO let us just live inpeace and stop makeing the life a holywood movie

Agree. But, how? I can not stand still until my identity is denied. Macedonian 01:45, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Since just having a nickname macedonian is obviously not enough I would like to suggest you to get a tatoo with macedonian sun on your forehead. Then there will be no doubts. Come on, get a life, drink your macedonian rakia and stop wasting bytes on the wikipedia servers.

Edits by 62.162.240.87 (talk · contribs)

I've reverted the following by the anonymous user 62.162.240.87 (talk · contribs):
"In many years Macedonians were genocid in Aegean Macedonia.From there we can find great Macedonian diaspora in Australia (about 1.000.000 people),Canada(800.000 people),U.S.A(700.000 people).Who was most of them born in Macedonia but by the end of the Greek civil war(1946-1949) they were reffugied in many states in the World.This was Great Genocid after the World War 2.But by the Greak propaganda the world public opinion did't know anything abot that.Until these days they can't see his villiges,towns,cities were they born.The Greak autorities don't allow to them to enter in Greece just becouse they are Macedonians.In some statistic by the year 1902 in the town of Solun (Tessaloniki)made by the Turcish autorities in that time in Solun lived 250.000 Jewls(they were genocid under the German occupation in the World War 2),300.000 Macedonians,150.000 Greeks,200.000 Turks, and others."
Sources and comments, at least for some parts? +MATIA ☎ 15:36, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

That IP is from Skopje, Macedonia. REX 16:09, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

The numbers are obviously overreacted a lot. But, it is a fact that most of this things are close to the truth (aldo, as I mentioned, quite enlarged).

I completely agree that this article has to include informations about the genocide made after the Balkan wars and after the Greek Civil war. Anyway, this is not a way. The article should be realistic, but it should not promote national hate. Macedonian 01:11, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

The numbers of ethnic Macedonians in Canada and the USA are ca. 30,000 for each of the countries, I would suspect that the number in Australia is pretty much the same (if not smaller). So what's your point? VMORO 23:01, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

You would cry when you see the numbers of Macedonians out of Macedonia. There are some estimates from neutral European universities that show even 200.000 Macedonians only in Australia. More than 40.000 Macedonians live in Australia who still have the Macedonian nationality (according to the agency for diaspora of Macedonia). Can you imagine the number of the ones who quited the Macedonian nationality in order to get the Australian?

I will present those sources soon, as soon a I get enought time to get them all together. Macedonian 02:29, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Make me cry, Macedonian, make the tears roll down my cheeks, haha:-)))) 30,000 in the U.S. according to the latest census, 30,000 in Canada according to the latest census, I guess the same number will be in Australia. You are getting ridiculous - 200,000 in the U.S., 1,000,000 in Australia and 5,000,000 on the Moon. Sure, baby, sure. VMORO 22:27, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Those numbers you have said can be found as registered Macedonians who have Macedonian passport and live in those countries. Also, I am getting some estimates from several European universities.

Another thing that might interest you. I am also checking the numbers of Bulgarians in other countries according to the censuses. It is unbelivable how far these numbers are from the numbers given on the gave of the Bulgarians. I wonder how will you deffend yourself on that issue.

Wanna play that game? You got it, babe. Macedonian^(talk) 00:39, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

about tags

tottalydisputed= POV + disputed
When we add a tag, we should add a new subsection on the talk page and say, I've added this tag for those reasons. It has been said by various wikipedians before, that Macedonia related articles are POV every time someone changes something, but you should clarify it anyway.+MATIA ☎ 22:11, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Matia, the tags were added many times before and a conversation was started. Anytime the Macedonian side gives some sources or examples, they are argued without any support, or at latest they get ignored. I repeat, I am talking about something that is supported by relevant evidence.

You can find really many examples like these through the talk page and the archives.

Therefore, any discusion that we start now will end up in the same way.

That is actually the reason why these tags are here for a while, because the involved sides can not deal. I am sure you would put the same tags if the Macedonian side outnumbers you and change the text according to their sources. Macedonian^(talk) 02:12, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

I suppose all agree at some time (edit) for +POV. I've noted that POV is included in totallydisputed (The neutrality of this article is disputed = 2 times) and I've asked clarifications for the "factual accuracy" part of the tag. +MATIA ☎ 02:29, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Even if we put 100 tags with POV here, it will be not enough. Bomac 11:25, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Verify what I've written with an admin you trust. +MATIA ☎ 11:55, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, probably the 2 tags are too much. But, the neutrality and factual accuracy have to be disputed. No matter which version we put, there will always be someone who will completely disagree. Macedonian^(talk) 02:52, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

The identity disputed

I would be interested to see a source that many Bulgarians dispute the identity of Macedonians.

Being Bulgarian myself, and communicating with many other Bulgarians I have only heard those people being called Macedonians. In Bulgarian language the term usually means "Bulgarians from Macedonia region", and may apply to people from Pirin Macedonia, expatriates from Vardar and Aegean Macedonia, and citizens of Republic of Macedonia. The term generally is not used for Greek inhabitants of Greek Macedonia provinces, and they are referred as Greeks (or Byzantians when derogatory). The meaning is just the same as Londoners or Californians will be for an English-speaking person.

Only the Greeks oppose that term and I have removed Bulgarians from the text. OTOH Bulgarians generally consider that Macedonian language was just a dialect of Bulgarian which was artificially separated as far as possible from Bulgarian by Yugoslavian Communist Party.

Of course, one can accept my perception as a POV as well, and/or claim it as irrelevant. it seems to happen quite often in Wiki :-/ Regards, Goldie (tell me) 07:31, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

How you want me not to react on a post like this?

Whatever you, Bulgarians call the Macedonians, that is your own thing. The actual fact stays: Macedonians are a separate nation and are not a part of the Bulgarians. As a fact, Tito was the one who was represing the Macedonian wish for independance. Without him, we would be independant country since 1945th.

Simple: Tito was not the one who created this nation. For your information, I already posted here list of documents which show that the Macedonian separate ethnicity was present at least since the 15th century. And not one document... several.

You can spread your propaganda as much as you want... that will not the change the truth that 2.5 million Macedonians puke on the idea that they are Bularians. Including me. Macedonian^(talk) 11:54, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

ha-ha! :) I am bulgarian and I don't give a damn how the people west of Blagoevgrad call themselves. If you think of yourself as macedonian, that is fine - I don't care. It is actually funny to see how this tiny country and young troubled nation is full with feeling of self-importance.

I, on the other hand, I'm glad to know about their usage of the exonym Byzantians, even if it is derogatory. +MATIA ☎ 13:19, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

I have tried to correct the wrong claim about Bulgarians, regardless whether Macedonians like it or not. Dispute about it being propaganda or not can be held at a forum or chat room, and it not within the goal of Wikipedia. I was not trying in any case to hurt the self-esteem of Macedonian people or to suggest that Maconians should accept Bulgarian position. It is sad that my words were misinterpreted.

Matia, I am glad to make you glad . Feel free to consider this as endorcement of whatever you may dream but it is more a manner of speach, and is irrelevant to inheriting any empire. Greece is having as many rights as Italy, Egypt, and Syria for example.

Unfortunately all this does not give any facts, and I am going to delete the text again after the blind revert by overzealous editor. Regards, Goldie (tell me) 22:23, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

I am sorry if I missinterpreted your words. I am sure you guess how sensitive is this question for us, so I hope you understand my reaction. Sorry again. Macedonian^(talk) 13:43, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

User:Bggoldie your phrase "as endorcement of whatever you may dream" is offending me and I don't think I have offended you. The phrase "most Greeks and Bulgarians oppose their use of the term Macedonians" you changed looks, perhaps, to you as a weasel term but it looks to others like "people of RoM do not have exclusive rights over the usage of that term" and as I have written before, they have used plain Macedonian for the last decade, Bulgarians may have used, perhaps, for the last centuries, and Greeks for the last milleniums. Instead of (mis)guessing what I think, read my contributions on various Macedonia-related-articles and talk-pages. Take care. +MATIA ☎ 23:59, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Decade? Are you trying to be funny? Because you are not. We used the term since ever. Have you checked the links that I posted that show that the term is used to describe us since the 15th century by other, neutral sources? Macedonian^(talk) 13:43, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

User:Matia.gr, could you accept my apologies for offending you. There was no offence meant. However I disagree with you, and am not questioning "weaselness" of the term but contribution of dispute to Bulgarians. You may speak on behalf of Greek people as probably you meet many of them every day. How many Bulgarians have you met to claim a position on behalf of them? Also I am not a scholar researching your contributions, so am unaware of big part of them. If you have proofs of your statement, please present them. Otherwise you seem to defend your pro-Greek POV. Regards, Goldie (tell me) 02:48, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

What I write is my personal opinion, I do not represent the greek pov. I still believe that the phrase in question, doesn't mean that people of RoM are considered as Greeks, or as Bulgars, or as Serbs or as whatever else, but that they don't have rights for exclusive usage, just like the example you gave about cultural rights of Greeks, Italians etc to the Eastern Roman Empire (aka Byzantium). And the problem in wikipedia is that they need a good and fair disambiguation term... +MATIA ☎ 18:23, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Question: How come you do not consider what the third side, the Macedonian side thinks about this? Macedonian^(talk) 13:43, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

To speak about "ethnic Macedonians" in 15th century is... let's say scientificaly risky. The same applies to many modern nations that were formed during the previous two centuries. I haven't seen your "documents" but they'll probably talk about people (who may or may not be related to "Macedonian Slavs") who lived in the Macedonia region. I could give you quotes from scholars near 15th century who refer to Albanians or to Arvanites as Macedonians, using the geographical term Macedonia. Try to think about it, and compare it with your example (or POV?) that Tito "awakened" your people (or something like that, I don't remember your quote exactly). +MATIA ☎ 18:23, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

The documents that I presented include sentences where several nations are mentioned. A particular document from the 15th century says: "there are many Christians who are forced to serve the Turk, such as Greeks, Bulgarians, Macedonians, Albanians, Esclavinians, Rasians and Serbians". So, you can clearly see that in that time there were people regarded as Greeks, Bulgarians, Albanians, Slavic (Esclavinians)... and also Macedonians. So, Macedonians were not regarded (at least not from this source) as a part of some other nation.

I also agree that in that time the modern nations of the todays Balkan were still not formed, but at that time we can clearly speak about ethnicities.

As you can see, almost all nations from the region are mentioned. You can "guess" that he was tought of regions, but then he would not mentioned Esclavinians.

BTW, this is a "impresion" of a complete neutral guy (Bertrand de la Brocuiere), especially because in that time there were no registered assimilative actions and "problems" between the Balkan nations. They all were under the Turks.

I hope that you would visit my page and check the links. They are clear on this question.

Matia, I think it is about time you to open your mind a little more. I regard you as one of the people from the opposite sides that is quite reasonable and realistic. But it is not fair to make quessings, all in favor of supporting some claim that is completely disputable. You can show your arguments, but it is not OK to try to undervalue someone elses arguments before you investigate about them little more. Especially because we are not talking about one sourse. Macedonian^(talk) 23:46, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Avoid refering to my name, if you use again such terms against me. Continue diging (I've seen you've reached 6th century AD) and you'll find Alexander the Great, then Herodotus, yes there were Macedonians a long time ago... +MATIA ☎ 00:26, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I did not imagine anything of this. They are documented sources. Macedonian^(talk) 01:38, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Balkan war cleaninsing POV issues

I just came across this: The region suffered heavily during the Second Balkan War. During its advance at the end of June, the Greek army set fire to the Bulgarian quarter of the town of Kukush (Kilkis) and over 160 Bulgarian villages around Kukush and Serres driving some 50,000 refugees into Bulgaria proper. The Bulgarian army retaliated by burning the Greek quarter of Serres and by arming Muslims from the region of Drama which led to a massacre of Greek civilians.

There are some serious problems here. If one reads the Inquiry as well as Toynbee, other sources, and even memiors of activists in Ilinden, one can trace persecutions starting easily in 1903 and especially during the Balkan wars per se . Leading with one and then explaining the other as a "retaliation" is is a POV issue and inaccurate.

I think it is better to note that villages all around were attacked by various forces based on ethnicity.DaveHM 23:38, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

we also have in the followign sentence refering to WWII: During the Bulgarian admininstration of Eastern Greek Macedonia, some 100,000 Bulgarian refugees from the region were resettled there and perhaps as many Greeks were deported or fled to Greece.

this points to a glaring ommission: the population exchange between Greece and Bulgaria in 1915, which is actually a very importnat event. 1) it need serious exposition to give context to the raising of mention of 100,000 Bulgarian refugees since they had been exchanged 22 years earlier for a huge number of Greeks expelled from Bulgaria in 1915; and b) since in 1915 this big exchange/mutual deportation was aimed ostensably moving self declared Slavs fromo the area to Bulgaria and self declared Greeks to northern Greece.

I realize a lot of the discussion on this topic is contentionious. I do not ascribe it to squabbling, but to a natural collision of competing historiagraphies. but I will work some changes on these sections over the next few days based on accepted history.DaveHM 23:38, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Real meaning of the word MACEDONIA

It has come to my attention that some people think the word Macedonia is comming from the Greek meaning "tal trees", that is false infact.The real meaning has a meaning in Macedonian. Using Macedonian key to decipher Macedonia, it would seem like this:

All Slavonic speakers can have vary similar language as they all originally coming from Macedonia, one example is when Macedonians hear Serbians they can have accent but still understand them.i have a polish friend and when he is speaking polish to hisfather i can understand vary much of the words like Macedonian.

(in ancient Macedonian language and older Medievil Macedonian language, Macedonian tradition and oral poetry, it was pronounced Mat'edonia, where t' is pronounced as softened English diphthong ch.)

Mat'e, Mat', from MAK. mati, mat' (feminine noun) - mom, as shortening from MAK. mater - mother (also: majka, mama, matera). Oj Makedonijo, mila mati - Ahoy Serbia, dear mother (a 19th century song). M'T'R also being a common root in I-E, like eng. mother, germ. mutter, ital. madre, lat. mater etc.

Donia (feminine adjective) - lower, in geographic sense. MAK./slav. don'i, don'a, don'e - lower, as a masculine, feminine and netral adjective (n' is pronounced as a softened n, like in English new). Also as doln'i, doln'a, doln'e, Macedonian Latinic script: donji, donja, donje. Etymologicaly connected to dno - bottom, dolina - valley, bezdan (meaning: without (bez) bottom) - abyss, dole - down. Also related to eng. down, which, depending on contest, can mean don'-i/a/e.

Mat' and don'a are coherent in gender, giving Mat'edonia - lower motherland, southern motherland.

POV people,this is going to be added as soon as posible to the macedonia Page Risto Stefov 12:47, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Hello, Risto Stefov. Please give us a reference to a reliable source that discusses this etymology of the word "Macedonia", and it can then be worked into the article. Jkelly 18:32, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

This is not only a fantasia, but you insult the name of Macedonia and the history of this region! This is a name with some thousands years history, how can you say that don comes from the slavic dolina etc. when the slavians came in the rerion on 6th century A.D., while Greeks live in Macedonia more than 3000 years? Have you ever read history or ancient texts?

February 26, 1992: The FYROM's President Kiro Gligorov, at an interview by the Foreign Information Service daily report, Eastern Europe, stated: "We are Slavs, who came to the region in the sixth century. We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians - From user:vergina. Because you live in this region, does't means that you have anything common with its history.

Using this way of thinking, you can find an etymology of the word Macedonia even from the Chinese language!

This is rediculus.If wikipedia starting to adopt such a thoughts I don't think it continue to be serius and reliable.--Makedonas 18:59, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm very sceptical of Risto Stefov's claims as well, but we should at least give him a chance to provide some evidence. -- ChrisO 19:09, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

The Ancient Macedonians were a separate people at first. You should start to understand the (true) matters outside of the Greek "historical" influence. Bomac 19:11, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

As we've said, the ethnicity of the Ancient Macedonians is currently unknown. All we know for sure is that they were hellenisised and that they are not related in any way to the modern ethnic Macedonians. To quote Kiro Gligorov: We are Slavs, who came to the region in the sixth century. We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians. :-)))) --Latinus (talk (el:)) 15:30, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Hey, I have 3 new etymologies and I DEMAND everybody to start searching for a reliable source that proves them true:

1.The word is split in 3:

Ma- meaning "but" in Italian

-che- meaning "what" in Italian

-Donna meaning "woman" in Italian

All together: What a Woman!

The historic facts behind this story: The Romans had conquered Macedonia, before they came into existense. There was a beautiful woman there, called Grande Alexandra, who had made them crazy, hence the name of the land.

2.This etymology, is more modern:

Mac- from the Apple Macintosh

-edo- from the Greek word "εδώ"/"edo" meaning "here"

-onia modern Greek slang plural of "όνος"/"onos" meaning "donkey"

History says that the Apple Macintosh was first invented on the saddles of 2 tied donkeys that were running across the land.

3.The house alternative:

MC (not as in McDonalds but as a dj)

Edony (a famous song of house music)

The story is that the composer of the song was obsessed by this land in the Balkan Peninsula and therefore gave it his name.

GET REAL, PEOPLE --NikoSilver 16:58, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Reference Needed

This statement obviously needs a reference or needs to be deleted. Could someone please show a reference? It is a highly subjective statement; clearly no offical documentation showing that this was the position of "Bulgaria" or the "Bulgarians." "The Bulgarians were hoping that the independence of the Republic of Macedonia would reduce Serbian influence in the country and would eventually lead to the "re-Bulgarisation" of its population." This is located in the "Independence of the RoM" section. Macedonian876 20:15, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

This statement should be revised for clarity purposes - "Although there is no controversy that some of the area occupied by the modern Republic of Macedonia was indeed part of the ancient Macedonian kingdom, the antecedents of the Slavic people that populate it did not arrive in the Balkans until 1000 years after that period."

The "Slavic Migration" theory is simply that, a theory. Therefore, the concept "Slavic Migration theory" should be incorporated into this statement. For example, a clearer version could read much like the following - "Although no controversy exists in regards to whether or not parts of the historic region of Macedonia are incorporated in the modern Republic of Macedonia, as indeed part of the ancient Macedonian kingdom is, there is controversy in regards to the slavic people who currently populate much of the region. Some believe in a so called "Slavic Migration theory" which states that the slavic people who currently populate much of the region of Macedonia did not arrive in the Balkans until approximatlly 1000 years after the fall of Alexander the Great." This statement is clear and neutral and allows the reader to futher understand and comprehend the issues and concepts at hand. Macedonian876 20:50, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Further, this statement is also subjective and needs reference - "where huge demonstrations took place in Athens and Thessaloniki in 1992 against the new state." The use of the term "hugh" is very subjective and leaves much room for imagination. "Hugh" should be eliminated allowing the statement to be less subjective and more clear - "where demonstrations took place in Athens and Thessaloniki in 1992 against the new state." Macedonian876 20:55, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

A reference is also needed for this statement - "However, the Bulgarians refused and have refused so far to recognise the existence of a separate Macedonian language and a separate Macedonian Slav nation." It seems to contradict the statement right before it - "Bulgaria was consequently the first country to officially recognise Republic of Macedonia independence." If a country recognizes the "independece" of another country, it recognizes the people as being seperate. Look at the Former USSR countries and Russia - are any of the former USSR people known as Russian? I dont think they are? Macedonian876 21:04, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

You should consider going through the article and adding Template:Citation needed (by entering {{fact}}) to anything that is lacking a proper reference. Jkelly 21:06, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

The Independence of the Republic of Macedonia

I call into question the character of the “Independence of the Republic of Macedonia” section in this article. I have repeatedly asked for credible citations for subjective information that was written, yet, still, after a sufficient period of time, no citation has been added. The section, furthermore, seems to focus more on neighboring “nationalistic feelings” rather than on what the section states – the “Independence of the Republic of Macedonia.” Therefore, to improve the quality, accuracy, and parallelism of the information and the section, a departure from “nationalistic feelings” and un-cited material will be made. The account of the “Independence of the Republic of Macedonia” that I have posted is citable and is from a third party. Macedonian876 18:28, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

?

Politis, I would like you to explain to me how some of your changes represent anything close to a neutral point of view? I would also like to understand why you deleted important information? I would ask that wikipedia freeze this article or ban you from editing if you continue to incorporate your extremist views in this article -

The article said – “In the Byzantine empire, there was a number of different themas (provinces) dividing the geographical region of Macedonia.”

You incorporated – “In the Byzantine empire and for the next 1,700 years, there was no Macedonian region.”

The key words that you are missing in the first statement are “geographical region of Macedonia.” The article itself is “Macedonia (region)” and contains information regarding the region during this timeframe?

The article said – “the name of Macedonia disappeared as an administrative designation”

You incorporated – “the name of Macedonia disappeared for good as an administrative designation”

There is no need for the addition of this terminology? Because, as a matter of fact, both in the Republic of Macedonia and in Greece there are administrative designations including the term “Macedonia.” Please keep nationalism to yourself.

The article said – “Some believe in a so called "Slavic Migration theory" which states that the slavic people who currently populate much of the region of Macedonia did not arrive in the Balkans until approximately 1000 years after the fall of Alexander the Great. As a result, the appropriation of what Greece considered “ancient Greek symbols” by the people of Macedonia fueled nationalist anger in Greece. This anger was reinforced by the legacy of the Civil War and the view, in many quarters, that Greece's slavic-speaking populations were a "disloyal" minority. The Republic of Macedonia's status became a heated political issue in Greece where demonstrations took place in Athens and Thessaloniki in 1992 against the state under the slogan "Macedonia is Greek", referring to the name and history rather than the modern region as a whole. The Greek government objected formally to any use of the name Macedonia (including any derivative names) and also to the use of symbols such as the Vergina Sun.”

You incorporated – “The Slavic people arrived in the Balkans approximately 1000 years after the death of Alexander the Great. As a result, the appropriation by the Republic of Macedonia of what Greece held as its “ancient Greek symbols”, raised concerns in Greece as well as fuelling nationalist anger. This anger was reinforced by the legacy of the Civil War and the view in some quarters, that Greece's slavic-speaking populations presented a danger to its borders. The Republic of Macedonia's status became a heated political issue in Greece where demonstrations took place in Athens while one million Macedonian Greeks took to the streets in Thessaloniki in 1992 against the irredentism of Skopje; their slogan was, "Macedonia is Greek", referring to the name and history and not to the territory of their northern neighbour. Initially, the Greek government objected formally to any use of the name Macedonia (including any derivative names) and also to the use of symbols such as the Vergina Sun.”

Please tell us what was wrong with the initial terminology? You make no discussions? Your extremist attitude is obvious – “Some believe in a so called "Slavic Migration theory" which states that the slavic people who currently populate much of the region of Macedonia did not arrive in the Balkans until approximately 1000 years after the fall of Alexander the Great.” This statement is very neural, expressing that people believe in an academic theory which states that the Slavic people migrated into the region one thousand years after the fall of Alexander? Your version is nationalistic and makes no reference to the theory at all.

The article said – “Outside Greece and international diplomatic settings, the country is usually simply called "Macedonia". About 40 countries, notably the United States, People's Republic of China and Russian Federation, have recognised it by its constitutional name, while the remaining majority of countries, the United Nations and other international organisations recognize it as the "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", often abbreviated as "FYROM".”

Why did you delete this? Actually, the number is around 110 now but I will not make that change until I find the exact number.

Please, before you make significant reverts, discuss them with the rest of us. You cannot just make changes for nationalistic reasons. Macedonian876 18:37, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I am pleased to make you acquaintance because it brings me into contact with people like you who, no doubt with the best of intentions, mistake their objections as signs of nationalism and make wikipedia a problematic reference tool.

I cannot understand what you mean by nationalistic. Do consider the changes as proof of nationalsm emanating from Athens, Skopje, Sofia, Tirana? Or are you just an outsider from the region, sticking pins? Wilkinson is quite clear regarding the complexities over Macedonia. Also, the perception of a Macedonian 'region' emerged in the late 19th century and was consolidated in the 20th with the creation of a Republic of Macddonia nation-state. This upsets some Greek Macedonians because it gives validity to the existence of a Macedonian state (and long may it exist). It also upsets some Macedonian Slavs because they are concerned that without a history streching back to Alexander, and without the invented existence of a continuous Macedonian region, they loose credibility. Of course, that is rubbish. I suggest you open your eyes to the Republic and you will see that it is very real without all that surplus. Those are the facts my dear correspondent, and I am sorry if this upsets your Greek/Bulgarian/Macedonian/Albanian (?) sensitivity.

If you have a point, then I will gladly - as I always do - incorporate it in my text. You only have to point it out in my talk box. Merci, efharisto thank you and blagodaram Politis 14:33, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the removal of 'which countries recognised ROM and which FYROM', in my estimation, I was originally the one who introduced the names of the SCUN countries that recognised ROM under that name, but in the ROM entry, and I further justified the term 'most'. So whoever you are, be very, very vigilant before you come out with heavy artilery qualitatives, such as 'extremist', etc; because you are only sullying the nom-de-plume you have borrowed to sign your contributions. Do we really want the world to associate the term 'Macedonia' with 'unreliability'? I don't.Politis 14:55, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

“I am pleased to make you acquaintance because it brings me into contact with people like you who, no doubt with the best of intentions, mistake their objections as signs of nationalism and make wikipedia a problematic reference tool. I cannot understand what you mean by nationalistic.”

I am, likewise, pleased to incorporate you in my circle of acquaintances which I attribute the groupname “wikipedian schalors.” First, I would like to say thank you for actually contributing to the discussion page. My first question geared to you is if you “cannot understand what I mean by nationalistic” then how can you say “people like me” “mistake their objections as signs of natinalism?” For, if you have no understanding with reagard to what context I use the term “nationalistic” or “nationalism,” you are unable to correctly come to the conclusion that I “mistake objections as signs of nationalism.” Straightforwardly, the statement itself makes little sense as you are not referencing who “their” objections may be as “their” should relate to “people like me” yet it makes no sense that “people like me” mistake our own ojections as nationalistic? Either way, you are erroniously classifying me into a group of people which you believe exist on this “discussion forum” when the evidence illistrates that my actions are none of the sort.

“Do consider the changes as proof of nationalsm emanating from Athens, Skopje, Sofia, Tirana? Or are you just an outsider from the region, sticking pins?”

My comments with regards to nationalism relate to you, as an individual who hold allegience to a certain state, not the state itself at this point. Evidence exists as I can clearly illistrate the idea: You incorporated into the article – “The Slavic people arrived in the Balkans approximately 1000 years after the death of Alexander the Great” when the article said to begin with – “Some believe in a so called "Slavic Migration theory" which states that the slavic people who currently populate much of the region of Macedonia did not arrive in the Balkans until approximately 1000 years after the fall of Alexander the Great.” It has to do with framing the statement. Your statement clearly says for fact that the “Slavic people arrived in the Balkans approximately 1000 years after the death of Alexander,” while mentioning nothing that this is an academic theory with regards to the origins of the slavic people. You are misleading the reader who would cleary and correctly ration from your statement something that is not so fundamentally clear and correct. Through your use of framing, you eliminate the neutral point of veiw and solidly create misunderstandings of great porportions. The theory itself favors one point of view over the other, namly “Greece,” but that is besides the point; to show both points of view, not simply one or the other. Through illistrating both points of view, the reader can solidly make a concious decion with the information that is available but you must represent the information in full with accuracy which you are eliminating. Thus, the theory of “nationalism” is born.

"If you have a point, then I will gladly - as I always do - incorporate it in my text. You only have to point it out in my talk box. Merci, efharisto thank you and blagodaram Politis 14:33, 23 February 2006 (UTC)"

As so I have above – not in your “talk box” but on this discussion page as what you incorporate in the article relates to this page and many people around the world, not only you.

"Regarding the removal of 'which countries recognised ROM and which FYROM', in my estimation, I was originally the one who introduced the names of the SCUN countries that recognised ROM under that name, but in the ROM entry, and I further justified the term 'most'. So whoever you are, be very, very vigilant before you come out with heavy artilery qualitatives, such as 'extremist', etc; because you are only sullying the nom-de-plume you have borrowed to sign your contributions. Do we really want the world to associate the term 'Macedonia' with 'unreliability'? I don't.Politis 14:55, 23 February 2006 (UTC")

No, we don’t, and that’s why I will stay completely active on this site for as long as it exists. Thank you for understanding. Macedonian876 16:22, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

All the sources I have read, from Greek Byzantine authors, to Russian historians, Bulgarian ethnologists, ROM press releases, Greek academics... they all concure very clearly that the Slavs started arriving in the southern Balkans from the late 6th century. So that makes it around 1,200 after Alexander the Great. I cannot really understand what the problem is with that, or the implecations. Also, if nationalism is an indication of someone's state allegience, then I stand indiscriminately for the prosperity and economic harmony of all southeast European nations (including Turkey).

On a different level, some ROM authors like to trace their roots back to the Hellenic kingdom of Philip, down the Byzantine centuries, the Ottoman conquest, to today. Others dream of a greater Macedonia. To this effect, many of them make use of the geographical map of Macedonia whose boundaries were outlined in the early 20th century and whose history was establishe with hindesight from the 1950s. But with their arguments and skewed logic they still fail to persuade even half-serious historiography (which, in my opinion, does not exclude the possibility it may well be possible to claim a ROM and Macedonian Slavo-Hellenic heritage to Philip).Politis 17:17, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

You are being somewhat hypocritical? The original boundries of "Greece," which mind you did not include Macedonia, were outlined in the early-mid 19th century? The original boundries of "Serbia" were outlined during that period too? The current boundry of "Bulgaria" and "Greece" was outlined in the 20th century as well, actually, ten years or more AFTER Macedonia was liberated and defined by the Macedonian people? Macedonian876 15:37, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

= ? for Moderators

Does wikipedia allow people to add and subtract as they please without discussing the information on the talk page? Should we all follow the rules, or do the rules only apply for some? Macedonian876 14:03, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Keep in mind that administrators are not that different from any other editor. I can gently encourage people to behave with civility, or follow other guidelines (and, yes, in extreme cases enforce those guidelines), but none of us should ever take ownership over a page. Also, we're often very busy; I haven't even looked at this article since the major revision discussed below. Discussion here seems to be progressing relatively smoothly, and I'm reluctant to interfere when things seem productive. Jkelly 03:41, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Djassus entry

Macedonian876, I hope you gave Djassus an explanation for removing his contribution. He certainly deserves one with such a large entry; but its strength is in the argument rather than in hard information. Encyclopedias are not grounds for debate, but for sound and cohesive information on particular topics :-) Politis 19:14, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

The information provided by user Djassus, as I stated in the "edit summary," constituted original research, as he did not provide any references for the information he included - that is number one. Number two, this is an article with regards to the "Region of Macedonia" and should not be a battle ground for political uses and issues - for example - I can reference many authors that state that "Macedonia was never part of Greece" and that "Macedonians are a seperate ethnic group unrelated to the Greeks" but I do not add that information because that type of information does not belong in an article that discusses the "Region of Macedonia." Macedonian876 19:58, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

So we both agree. I hope Djassus gets to read this also.Politis 20:02, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Politis, I think this is a GREAT day! I hope we will be writing "so we both agree" more often on this site! lol Macedonian876 20:12, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Please remove argument

In my opinion, the chapter 'A general view', needs to be removed; I do not mean to disagree with the contents but this burst of theoretizing is misplaced. Sygonomi Niko, I hope you understand. Politis 16:43, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

That was exactly the point of my revert. There may be PARTS of the Djassos' edit that are misplaced or need correction or need citation. However, we cannot throw the WHOLE version in the bucket. Sorry, Politis, I will not participate, nor express opinion on any specific correction (I leave that to the rest of you editors), BUT I will not agree in TOTAL removal of Djassos edits on the grounds of on Wikipedia:Be bold in updating pages & Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers. Please proceed in adding/removing/correcting etc PART-by-PART. NikoSilver 17:06, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps it is me, but I cannot get much sense out of this entry. One phrase where you are not theorizing is when you say that, Macedonia has been the apple of discord between the Balkan states especially at the end of the Ottoman sovereignty. First, there was no geographical, political or economic 'Macedonian region' to fight over because a 'Macedonian' entity was not identified until the late 19thC (I am not denying the right of the Macedonian Slavs to claim a special and separate identity). Second, it was not the apple of discord, because the entire region was fought over between Constantinople and the Latins, followed by the Ottomans. We had themes, villayets and the geographical area of Roumelia, embrassing Thrace and Greek Macedonia - and even that had no definite boundaries. Third, there were no Balkan states before the 19thC to fight over the 'apple'.

In fact, the entire article is flawed, especially the chapter 'Controversy: Republic of Macedonia and Greece', so I suppose this is a real Macedonian salad of an article. Axion Esti those who debate. Politis 17:31, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

You are invited to correct the article according to your comments. Just, please, discuss it with all other editors and try to find and keep those paragraphs, sentences EVEN words of Djassos version that may be of value. Sorry, again, for not participating in that discussion. NikoSilver 17:39, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Also, I think I saw that the controversy chapter was there in the first place. So, as you see, it is not only Djassos' entries that may need modification. My 'debate' is STOP shooting the newbee. NikoSilver 17:45, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Did it ever occur to you people that "chapters" are for books, not an encyclopedia? An encyclopedia should be concise not ambiguous? In my opinion, this was a great effort by Djassos, but, I feel that it belongs in a book not an encyclopedia. Open up an encyclopedia and tell me how long the entries are? There is so much inforamtion and nothing is cited? Give me a break - Clearly original research. I am with politis on this one. Macedonian876 16:01, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Point noted. However, as per Wikipedia:Long article layout there are other houmongus articles here (of 180Kb) like Origins of the American Civil War. Actually, this article is not even in the TOP-500 in size list. Check 1-500 List. The current article size is 71.1Kb. However, if one still feels that it should be divided, then according to Wikipedia:Article size one must do the following:

Breaking out a controversial section.

A relatively trivial fact may be appropriate in the context of the larger article, but inappropriate as the topic of an entire article in itself. In most cases, it is a violation of the neutral point of view to specifically break out a controversial section without leaving an adequate summary. Consider other organizational principles for splitting the article. Be sure that both the title and content of the broken-out article reflect a neutral point of view.

• A rule of thumb.

Some useful rules of thumb for splitting articles, and combining small pages (tables, list-like sections and markup excluded):

>50KB - Probably should be divided (although the scope of a topic can sometimes justify the added reading time)

Thanks for the remark, but Wikipedia:Long article layout explicitly says that it can be in the same structured form that it has now (hence the example of Origins of the American Civil War) or it can be divided in more articles like e.g Medieval History of Macedonia, like it is done in the History of the English penny and History of Brazil. In NO case, however, does Wikipedia say that you need to DISCARD information. NikoSilver 17:58, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, also, for your remark. But, as you should understand, his entire addition is original research. He cites nothing. Again, I do not believe this is the place for original research. Must I pull up Wikipedia rules for you to familiarize yourself with? Or, do you understand this? Macedonian876 18:32, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the response. No, I do not need you to pull up the Wikipedia:No original research because I know that it says the following:

Original research that creates primary sources is not allowed. However, research that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing primary and/or secondary sources is strongly encouraged. In fact, all articles on Wikipedia should be based on information collected from primary and secondary sources. This is not "original research", it is "source-based research", and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia.

The added paragraphs mention: Strabo, Sfetas, Plutarch, Herodotus, Stardelov, Martis, Andriotis, minutes of the Constitutional Assembly of Athens, Bramos, Misirkov, Glenny, Kiro Glogorov, The United States Department of State and others as sources. I suggest you read the additions. I consider this source based research. However, there may be parts of the text that need citation. I suggest you locate those parts and do the following:

a) provide the citation needed

b) if nobody can find such references, delete those parts.

Thank you. NikoSilver 20:14, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Dear editors,

I would really appreciate you dealing with the article. Please feel free to post your changes on the previous/newer versions of the article, since it may contain:

• (new or older) parts that need citation
• parts that may be POV (where we should adequately include the other POV) and
• argumentative parts (which need to be removed).

In the spirit of Wikipedia:Five Pillars, probably all of us do not disagree in what the final form of the article should be. There were some disagreements on whether we revert the newer additions in whole -or- we deal with them part-by-part, in order to ensure that we retain whatever may be of value. Let us put that behind us because the article has remained unchanged for more than two days. Also, the article may need the eye of an expert historian. In any case, some of us need to work on the article more than we work on the talk-page. Thank you. NikoSilver 12:01, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Having seen this I think Djassos (is it dj Ace?) did a very good job. Perhaps some details need to be worked out, but the article is much better now and I'm really glad because someone took the time to write down all these things. talk to +MATIA 12:45, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

This change should not Stay

I still believe, as Politis agrees, that the change by "Djassos" have more to do with politics than anything else. For example - "Macedonians were a Hellenic tribe" - "Philip had a Greek conscience" - "Unfortunately most of these authors, if not all, do not give any proof" - etc. etc. etc. Do you want me to give you proof? Is that not why this is debated? Do you want to make this article a battle of politics? This is pathetic? Djassos's changes do not belong in the article. If you want to talk politics go on a blog - this is not the place for it. This is an article about the region of Macedonia not about the conscience of Philip. Macedonian876 13:59, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

As much as I agree with the statements, I should seperate politics from this article. I must agree with Macedonian and Politis on this one. Information about the ethnicity of Macedonians etc do not belong in this article. Djassos's changes are all about that. Andropolus

Make proposals for changing parts of it - if we really need to do so. I believe that most of Djassos edits should stay. talk to +MATIA 16:24, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

About the recent reverts

I reverted the article to the last neutral version.every change that anyone wants to do,i think that it should be discussed here first...or else we are getting in another edit-war.In the articles about the ancient roman provinces(in the category Macedonia(region) also belongs),there are references about the origin of the inhabitants,e.g.Bithynia.The article about the region of Macedonia does not only have geography section,but it is also history,as all the articles about historic regions.there is no way that someone can make an article about Macedonia(region) without mentioning Philip or Alexander,or the ethnic consiousness of the people they ruled.thus,specific facts should be mentioned.not only the greek side.But they should be all followed by contemporary historic references and not someone just ask 'citation needed'.--Hectorian 14:19, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

What ever happened to all of the above talk? Are we not being hypocritical now Hector? Oh wait, I am deeply sorry, how foolish am I?; that only applies for pro Greek information. Not only does your deletion of sourced and cited information not make sense, it is a violation of Wikipedia policy? Read above? Or, wait, that must only work in theory? Or, maybe only if information is pro Greek? Today is a sad day for the Greek people if your ideas represent the whole. Do you have any idea of the implications of deleting contrasting, vaild, and sourced information? I’ll tell you the implications – it illistrates that the Greek ideal, your ideal,which should be the only represented information in this article, is not only solidly contested, but that it is contested in such a strong manner that the Greek people are even afraid to have it posted where people can see and read it. Why are you so affraid? Why do you show weakness? This is a clear victory for Macedonia and the Macedonian people. Fear of the contrasting arguement has strong implications my friend! Oh, but dont worry, even if the moderaters on this site dont do there job to let all relevent information be part of the article, the Macedonians will make it happen where it counts - and guess what and who really counts? Not biased Wikipedia and not wikipedian "scholars." Andropolus 23:17, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Andropolus, I'm going to be frank with you. I believe that you are a sockpuppet of Macedonian876 (talk · contribs · block log) and therefore have requested an IP check. --Latinus 23:26, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

I know Macedonian876 - he lives in my household. Cannot more than one user from the same houshold visit and participate in the site? Please Andropolus 23:28, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

We'll let the administrators decide that... --Latinus 23:31, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Do as you must and the moderaters do as they must. I'm not worried about you nor am I about them. If they unreasonably block my account or my sons accout you just remember what I said - "Oh, but dont worry, even if the moderaters on this site dont do there job to let all relevent information be part of the article, the Macedonians will make it happen where it counts - and guess what and who really counts? Not biased Wikipedia and not wikipedian "scholars." Andropolus 23:36, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

What is your nationality? You indicate "Greekness" on your userpage - do you know that fraudulent sockpuppetry has gotten all accounts banned? This happened to Bonaparte (talk · contribs · block log). --Latinus 23:39, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Nationality and ethnicity are two different things my friend. You must seperate the two. Andropolus 23:43, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Ah, you evaded answering! More evidence to go on your file :-) Pes mu, ti milas tin glosa mas i milas to Bulgaro-Skopianiko idioma ton Skopion? --Latinus 23:47, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

HAHAHAHA - Then I get this message -

"Vandalism Welcome to Wikipedia. We invite everyone to contribute constructively to our encyclopedia. Take a look at the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing. However, unconstructive edits are considered vandalism, and if you continue in this manner you may be blocked from editing without further warning. Please stop, and consider improving rather than damaging the hard work of others. Thanks. Moe ε 00:06, 6 March 2006 (UTC)"

Alright people - Jkelly - Moderaters - there are just too many Gerkies, Gerkomans, and Greeks (Turks) to compete with on this website. In order for a contesting viewpoint to be added to a page, you must have numbers. This site has been infested with too many "Greeks" who will not allow any other viewpoint but their own to be on the page. What is a man to do? Play these petty revert games? I don't have the time to do this - Therefore, I would like to say a few things that will get me and Macedonian876, AS WE ARE THE SAME PERSON, banned from this site - as, it is not worth it for me to be on this site anymore. We cannot infiltrate cited information; We cannot keep this page neutral; We cannot add any information at all; UNLESS IT IS GOOD FOR THE GERKI? Bye you Turko-Gerks - I suggest you report me at this time. Thank you..... Andropolus 01:05, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and please eliminate MACEDONIAN876 TOO - just incase you forget...Andropolus 01:07, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Just in case your wondering Andropolus, I am neither Gerkie, Gerkoman, Greek, Turkish or anything mentioned above. All I am is an editor reverting damage done by a sockpuppet, which is what you now admit to be. Moe ε 03:27, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Listen you stupid fuck! (Are you going to ban me yet you Turkonopolus?) Whether I wrote that shit with Andropolus or Macedonian876 or Jackass101 - it does not matter? The information is the same! Like I said Gerki, you and your Gerkoman friends remember - "It is not Wikipedia nor is it you wikipedian "scholars" who make important territorial, historical, and international decisions." While you dumb asses may have numbers here, which is allowing you to keep the article Pro-Gerkoman and only Gerkoman, the Macedonians will make it happen where it counts. I shouldnt have even started here to begin with - rather than discussing issues online with you Prosphigi and Gerkoman pigs, who only allow, as I stated above, only Gerki points of view, I could be focusing more time on the very important situations me and my Macedonian conterparts are working on. Again, ban me off this fucking site already - Macedonian876 too because WE ARE THE SAME PERSON. Thank you Andropolus 16:05, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the evidence, my friend :-) see also WP:CIV and WP:NPA. --Latinus 16:28, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Just informing u,Andropolus or Macedonian876 or whatever,that i had reverted the article to the last version made by a non-greek and not-'macedonian'.i could as well reverted to my own last version or to someone greek's version.and i did this cause the 'citation needed' thing was clearly an attempt to provocate the greek position.who ever is the user who added the 'citation needed' in any phrase concerning the greeks,should do the same to the pro-'macedonian' sentences if he wanted to be neutral.so,skipping your personal attacks to other wikipedians and racist comments against the greeks,i am telling u that if u will be blocked(permanently or not) is a result of your own attitude and will maybe make u think a bit...if propaganda has not turned u into a blind person...(something that i doubt it will happen).bye Macedonian876...--Hectorian 16:47, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, I am just informing you that you seem very ignorant. How is entering "citation needed" provacative? Do not such bold statements like "Alexander is Greek" and "therefore, Macedonians must be Greek" and the "official position of the Republic" need citations? Are you stupid? First of all, professors at top universities debate the origins of Macedon and Macedonians and are unable to make a clear decision regarding this issue? Now, please tell me how wikipedian "scholars" have it figured out? You, and the rest of you Gerkoman idiots, are pathetic! Not only that, the statement "therefore, Macedonians must be Greek" in and of itself is a conclusion? CITATION PLEASE! You dumb asses think you have it all figured out which, also in and of itself, shows your competence. In order for this to be a neutral page, you must add passages that allow the reader to forumlate an opinion, not you forumlate an opinion for the reader. Only then can this pathetic page be neutral. At this point, this page is a Gerki infested sad excuse for informitive neutral history. A statement "Some historians believe that there is not enough evidence for claiming a Greek origin of Macedon and Macedonians. The following passages are used to support their conclusion:" and then a list of supporting passages from ancient texts. No conclusion is drawn for the reader as he is able to decide if the passages support the claim. But dumb statements like "Alexander is Greek" form the conclusion for the reader. It is clear, hectorov, that you are as pathetic as the Gerki on this site. Get a life, an education, and.......fuck it, I'm not waisting any more time with you stupid asses. Punk ass Prosphigi.....Andropolus 23:18, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, you keep saying that, but you keep coming back for more :-) Hey, you remember what Kiro Gligorov said: We are Slavs, who came to the region in the sixth century. We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians. So I don't get something - even if the Ancient Macedonians weren't Greek, that still doesn't make them Macedonian Slavs... --Latinus 23:29, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

To Andropolus,Macedonian876 or whatever...:if u have sources,cite them youself,instead of asking someone else to do it for u!but i can understand u...u have got pissed off cause there are so many ancient sources stating that ancient macedonians were greeks and u have nothing to say in order to support the opposite claim...But what can i say?this is history,and neither u,nor me can change it!btw,do not call me 'hectorov' cause i come from a place that the slavs never inhabited...and as far as i know,the -ov in the end of surnames is a bulgarian (and to a lesser extent generally slavic)characteristic...So,since u are a bulgarian or generally a slav,add it to your username:Andropolov...(this way u will show that u have nothing to do with ancient macedonians)--Hectorian 00:38, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Dear Hectorian, Maz^ogradov would be more appropriate for Andropolus

(Maz^-=Άνδρας=Man, -grad-=Πόλις=city, -ov=Bulgarian origin).

And then, ofcourse, we have:

• Maz^obran

(Maz^-=Άνδρας=Man, -obran=Άλεξ-=-proof => Maz^obran=Αλέξανδρος=Manproof=Alexander)

and

• Ljubovkonj

(Ljub-=Φιλ-=Fan, -konj=-ίππος=horse => Ljubokonj=Φίλιππος=Horsefan=Philip).

Those were the true names of the anchient slavs who conquerred all known world, didn't you know?!!! Give us a break, please!!! NikoSilver 14:23, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Concentrate on the 25,713 km² of ROM

How do the IMF [5], EU [6], EBRD, [7], NATO [8] handle ROM (fyrom to the UN)? Thank god they do not confuse the so-called 'Macedonia region' with the actual country! They analyse the 25.713 km² of ROM. That's it.

- The problems in Wiki begin when addressing a Macedonian region. Perhaps some contributors write as if they desire to identify the borders of the Republic (its ethnography, its history) with those of a huge region. Perhaps they want the world to believe that before 1913 there existed an ethno-geographical Macedonian entity; perhaps some contributors may wish to include that they descended from the ancient Macedonians and that they are the fathers of the Greek and Slavic languages, but that pre-1913, mythical Macedonia was torn apart by its neighbours. They write with that imagined injustice in mind.

- Others may pretend the Republic does not exist. It does. Its relations with Greece and Bulgaria are very healthy. Athens was a strong ally to Skopje - and its VMRO government!- during the 2001 civil war.

- Article 134 of the ROM constitution: “…the Republic will not interfere in the sovereign rights of other states or in their internal affairs.” Politis 17:46, 6 March 2006 (UTC)