Talk:Pippa Middleton

Reading

I have removed her from the people from Reading category. Being born in a Reading hospital does not make her a Readinger. She has never lived in or been educated in Reading. Farrtj (talk) 18:02, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

New Image

I have a new image for this page http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pippa-middleton-wedding.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bradoh (talk • contribs) 17:39, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

"Evidence of notability" tag

This tag offers me the chance to remove it, which I shall, as the references already there seem to me to meet the WP:N standard. More will follow in the next few days. Also, the google search "Pippa Middleton" (with quotation marks) gives 12,300 results. Without quotes, there are 195,000 results, and sampling them they nearly all seem to go to this Pippa Middleton. Moonraker2 (talk) 20:09, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

All appear to relate to a single event - it's not clear to me which of Wikipedia:Notability_(people) she comes under? See Invalid criteria: "That person A has a relationship with well-known person B". Just because that's how the British monarchy works, doesn't mean it's how Wikipedia should work.

As for Google hits, see "Avoid criteria based on search engine statistics".

Also see Wikipedia:Notability_(people)#People_notable_for_only_one_event - is her role that significant (tabloids fawning over her looks aside)? I'd suggest having this article as a redirect to Wedding of Prince William, Duke of Cambridge, and Catherine Middleton. The rest of her life story given here doesn't seem to pass the notability criteria (e.g., I picked one of the refs [1] - it's clear they only mention her because of her sister marrying, not because of a notable part in the story itself; let's not perpetuate famous for being famous). Mdwh (talk) 21:10, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Your are welcome to nominate the article for deletion but as Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pippa Middleton (2nd nomination) was only closed as keep a few hours ago you may have to wait some time to nominate again. You are also welcome to ask for a redirect but you need to consider the weight of the keep decision. MilborneOne (talk) 21:36, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Just ridiculous

What is she? The other Boleyn girl? Well, no... not yet, anyway. I have seen far more meritorious people/events lacking their own entry - and she gets it? Based on WHAT? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.142.119.120 (talk) 21:09, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Frankly, on Wikipedia:Notability; and see also here. Moonraker2 (talk) 04:03, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

I suggest revisiting the deletion nomination. She is a complete and utter nobody and i dont see why she should have her own page while the only reason she has one is because she is related to Kate Middleton, period. Notability is a huge issue here - not everyone woh has made it to page six in some newspaper should get their own wikipedia entry. Just because a lot of people visited her page because she was mentioned in connection to her sister doesnt meet the notability criteria. There are other factors going into it. CarrieBee (talk) 00:39, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

I think you would need to open a new cfd, CarrieBee. However, per Wikipedia:Notability Pippa Middleton has undoubtedly "received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject", where "Significant coverage" means addressing the subject directly in detail, "more than a trivial mention, but it need not be the main topic of the source material". "Pippa Middleton" (with quotation marks) today gives 991,000 google hits, and I don't feel that more than a third of a million Wikipedia page visits during April helps the non-notable case. Moonraker2 (talk) 03:07, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Lelegirli, 30 April 2011

the word organize is misspelled.

Lelegirli (talk) 19:24, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

No its not, in British English, organise is spelt with an s--Jac16888 ^Talk 19:39, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Some popular forms of British English do use an -s- instead of a -z- in "organize", but more traditional British English (including Oxford English) uses a -z-. I am old-fashioned English and always use a -z- for "organize", "realize", "antagonize", etc. Moonraker2 (talk) 22:57, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Lelegirli, you started your sentence with a lower case letter, which is incorrect. You also spelt mispelt as "misspelled" which is the American spelling, so I assume you are from the USA and probably unaware that anything else exists beyond that country. But just to let you know that there are differences between American and British spellings, and both are acceptable on Wikipedia. See here: WP:AmE. Childrens do learn. 82.152.209.221 (talk) 14:03, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 94.173.180.22, 30 April 2011

Keep - It is totally absurd to suggest that the sister of the future queen is not worthy of an article. Hatred of the Daily Mail on the part of some people is not justification for deletion of the article. It may well need improving. To suggest that it should be deleted makes Wikipedia a joke.

Thats not what the help request template is for, if you want to voice your opinon on the possible deletion of the article, go here--Jac16888 ^Talk 20:27, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Copied to AfD age. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 21:17, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

I support the rescue tag. I came here to read more about her because I thought Wiki was all about being relevant to significant events/issues/people in real time. I wanted to know who she is...what she does...where she's from etc... like it or not she is notable because everyday people like me are interested. I thought Wiki was here to give factual information that people find interesting...not to decide who 'deserves' to receive your precious and precocious notice. I bet her page has had lots of hits since the wedding and I noticed there's quite a bit of talk about her in the social networks...it's because she was genuinely happy and it showed in her face that day. She provides an opportunity to see a different aspect of Kate...she is a person of interest in her own right because her open, happy and utterly natural disposition shown through the camera that day and now we want to know more about her. Nobody wants to wade through a bunch of high-brow crap over her 'worthiness' to be in your precious wiki...so bugger off and leave her page alone. My3652011 (talk) 11:58, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Rescue tag

The {{Rescue}} tag is superfluous while another AfD is in place, and contradictory and confusing to readers, so I removed it. It's just been re-added, with no explanation in the edit summary. I contend that there is no purpose in keeping it and that it should be removed. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 21:15, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

• The tag in question is only used during AFD and so your objection seems to be a misunderstanding and so I shall reinstate it. Colonel Warden (talk) 21:20, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Ahnentafel

Can someone please explain what that ahnentafel is doing in this article? Those things are for people with a notable ancestry, but as far as I can see, none of her ancestors are independently notable. Leaving it there turns Wikipedia into genealogy.com, which it's not supposed to be. I'm going to remove it, please explain here why there's a compelling reason it should stay. Lampman (talk) 21:22, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

• I agree that the chart of Pippa's ancestors is not needed in this article. If anyone wants to know who her ancestors were, they can see the chart in Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge. Since they are sisters, they have the exact same ancestors as each other in every generation going back to the origin of life on Earth. The chart would be redundant here. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 23:11, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
  • As the Middleton ancestry is now flowing into the royal family, I'm not convinced that it's non-notable and would prefer to keep it. It's no good relying on finding it at the Kate page, as there has been a similar tussle going on there, too, so that it comes and goes. Moonraker2 (talk) 23:17, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
    • Well, it doesn't need to be both here and at Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge, and Kate is the one who is the member of the royal family now, so if it belongs on either page, it belongs on Kate's. If the supporters of having the ancestry chart on Kate's page lose that debate, they certainly aren't going to win the debate as to Pippa's page. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 23:37, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Delete Please

There are millions of party planners in the world. Unfortunately, double standards does not apply, and if this goes, we might aswell make an article for every sibling "married" into royalty all over the world. This article holds no significance. This article has no encyclopedic value. A brief mention of "Pippa" under the Catherine Duchess of Cambridge article is sufficient enough. --94.195.194.144 (talk) 15:24, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Please do not hide/delete the original discussion and then answer in an tottaly new topic. In addition, keep new edits to the bottom of the page. These are all wikipedia policies. You are violating wikipedia guidelines and rules, especially using my I.P. to sign off your answer with. This in response to whoever has made the topic "Edit request from 94.173.180.22, 30 April 2011". The original discussion is the aforementioned "Delete Please", and keep any answers within the boundaries of this discussion thank you, and do please remember to sign off with your own I.P. or username. --94.195.194.144 (talk) 15:24, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

• This person is now associated with the Royal Family. It would be great of we lived in a world where fame depended on objective merit and not being married to a chinless wonder, but we do not live in such a world. Your problem is with the legions of the gormless who buy tabloid newspapers and Franklin Mint, not with Wikipedia, which merely records their inexplicable obsession. Guy (Help!) 21:02, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Just to note that Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pippa Middleton (2nd nomination) was only closed as keep a few hours ago with a conclusion to keep the article. It is probable best to wait some time before you nominate the article for deletion, although notability is not normally lost consensus can change but unlikely to do so in a few hours or weeks. MilborneOne (talk) 21:40, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

I have to agree. There is nothing particulary notable about Pippa Middleton other than her relationship to someone else who is notable. If this is the criteria for inclusion, then everyone would have their own Wikipedia page. Please, please delete to keep standards up. Strathallen (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:12, 2 May 2011 (UTC).

Well, the article got kept. The joke that is the Afd process on Wikipedia rolls on - as long as those debates do not resemble anything less nuanced than a count up of how many people have grasped the basic skill of simply writing - 'yep, I think she's notable because she has [cut and paste mode ON] "has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject" [/cut and paste mode OFF], then we really may aswell simply start counting Google hits to decide Afds and leave it that (and tbh, that's all that nearly half the keepers could even manage as an argument). It seems to matter not one bit whether the keep voters are able to explain in their own words what 'significant' or 'in depth' coverage actually is in this context, a biography, let alone whether can go beyond their pure argument by assertion and provide any links to back up what they claim it is, and then logically argue whether the links actually show it. In that regard, it's beyond amazing that Pippa's role in this wedding has been put on a par with people who shoot Presidents. It's beyond fantastic that 'coverage' which undeniably exists has been lumped in all together, completely ignoring the rather important concept in terms of notability that Pippa was only treated wholly in tabloids for tabloid reasons, and only partially and tangentially in more respected sources whose content and focus was for obvious reasons not about Pippa, meaning that this 'coverage' has been elevated to the same level as having your life being written about as a notable topic in its own right by serious respected sources, for encyclopoedic, not tabloid, reasons. And yes, I'm well aware that the whole source doesn't have to cover the whole topic - but the bar is set at chapters among books, not one or two lines in a paragraph, or one or two paragraphs in a full length story. One person even alleged I 'hated' Pippa. Well, no, not really, I was if anything trying to protect her from Wikipedia by ensuring what notable details of her life exist as covered by reliable sources were kept in the places where they were most relevant. It's called having a proper perspective and giving proper weight. Most experienced editors here know the damage that can be done by it when it keeps full biographies on people for which the actual encyclopoedic coverage does not really exist to write a full and well rounded biography using reliable sources alone (as WP:BLP demands), and tbh, when the likes of the Daily Mail is still the primary source of much of its content, after all the 'improvement' solicited by the 'rescue' tag, and given the fact that the talk page has, during this entire Afd process, only garnered one debate on the actual content - about whether to document the appreciation for her ass or not, well, all I can say is, I apologise to you Pippa, as I'm sure not many of the ardent keepers are going to be interested in maintaining this article's quality, making sure it tries at least to be a credible biography and not a simply an aggregator of tabloid coverage of your life, with all its intrinsic and non-encyclopoedic flaws, for the rest of eternity. Afd:Making Wikipedia suck since fovever. MickMacNee (talk) 20:14, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Discussion Point

I think we have some serious BLP issues here. As it currently stands the lead says Her fame is partially due to public admiration for her buttocks.[3][4][5] Further down it says After the wedding, a facebook-page and a website dedicated to her buttocks were created,[3][4][5] and she was referred to as "Her Royal Hotness"[37][38] Is this appropriate? It sounds like tabloid trash. StAnselm (talk) 01:34, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

This is what her current fame is mainly based on: comments on her butt and how hot she is. There is no BLP-issue if all newspapers from UK to NZ report on it. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 01:53, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

I support removing it from the lead. Having it there puts undue emphasis on a point so minor that it receives only one sentence in an otherwise lengthy article. So a Facebook fanpage for her rear end was created. So what? Trivia doesn't belong in the lead.  Mbinebri  ^{talk ←} 02:20, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Disagree. Google Pipa Middleton, and that's what you get: her dress and her butt. There is nothing else that makes her notable as of now (apart from being the sister of Kate). Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 02:22, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

A simple Google search on her returns no results highlighting her butt. (I feel ridiculous even typing that.) Her coverage is 99% being Kate Middleton's sister and her role as maid-of-honor and probably 1% (if not less) talking about that Facebook page as an amusing bit of trivia that, in the end, is entirely irrelevant. Per WP:LEAD#Relative_emphasis, it doesn't belong in the lead.  Mbinebri  ^{talk ←} 02:30, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't know what google you are using. I see this. "Royal Hotness" and butt are right there. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 02:43, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm not disputing that she's getting press for her appearance, but that first search listing proves my point: even in an article talking about her looks, the minor reference to her butt's appreciation is simply the Facebook page (and what doesn't have a Facebook page at this point?). A more general mention about getting press for her physical attractiveness is what belongs in the lead based on the coverage, if something like this has to go in the lead. Not to mention, I see two other editors that have removed the claim from the lead, so I'm obviously not the only one that thinks this is an issue.  Mbinebri  ^{talk ←} 02:59, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Good; so change it to something about her dress and her looks if your concern is merely with the word "buttocks". Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 03:01, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

OK, so I took out "buttocks." Will re-arrange the refs accordingly. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 03:07, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

I was changing it myself, but unfortunately I edit so slowly that there always ends up being a conflicting edit.  Mbinebri  ^{talk ←} 03:16, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

The page is so lively that it seems to have taken on a life of its own. Moonraker2 (talk) 03:20, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

While we're at it about trivia, how is shooting an X number of gamebirds in one day and carrying haggis into a pub important? And how is it part of a "career"? Just wondering... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 03:21, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Those sentences are about lifestyle and not about career. The new "career" header looks to me like the problem. Moonraker2 (talk) 03:25, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Better, but I still don't see how... — y'know, I've carried haggis into a pub once (in Scotland, damnit!), like, maybe 20 years ago. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 03:29, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

acxtually not her buttocks, her hips (see hip to waist ratio. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.128.190.133 (talk) 16:16, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

I have removed this lecherous nonsense from the article. We are a serious encyclopedia writing a balanced biography of a living person. We are not a tabloid newspaper recording this week's celebrity tittle-tattle, much less an aggregate of what teenage boys are masturbating on this internet this week. Try writing for www.chickipedia.com if you want to cover buttocks and hotness.--Scott Mac 18:12, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Not "lecherous". Major part of the media-coverage about her. WP:NOTCENSORED Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 23:09, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

It is nothing to do with censorship. It is simply not an important facet of this subject's life that a bunck of folk created a leering facebook page last week. We're an encyclopedia not a reportage of Internet obsessions with women's booty.--Scott Mac 23:13, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Atleast they're not making her the butt of any jokes. GoodDay (talk) 23:14, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

No its wikipedia that is the butt of jokes due to addition of such low quality facebook crap asserted as a fantastic uncensored notable encyclopedic addition. Off2riorob (talk) 23:26, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Headline: Wikipedia-Discussion about Pippa Middleton

Today, the deletion discussion of yesterday (German Wikipedia) and a few days ago (on 30 April -English Wikipedia) is headline in German press: "Augsburger Allgemeine" on 3 May 2011: [2]. XD (The result was in both cases keep) -But what about her and Catherine's brother, James Middleton? -- LeoDavid (talk) 12:35, 3 May 2011 (UTC)