Talk:James Connolly

Irish socialist

Surely the Irish socialist is by far the better known of the two, and ought to be the primary meaning on Wikipedia. To suggest otherwise is US-centric. PatGallacher 12:25, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

As nobody has responded to this suggested change in around 28 hours I will carry it out. PatGallacher 16:21, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Work Required

This article is in need of a lot of work.

• No sources/references given.
• Nothing about his (lengthy) time in a America.
• Very little on his contribution to Irish politics.

Also, is it right to have him in the Scottish/British soldiers category when it is merely an allegation? GiollaUidir 22:06, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

There is some repitition re his death between the section on republicanism and the specific section on his death. Monalisaoverdrive (talk) 09:14, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Picture

Can someone put up a picture on this article please. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Exiledone (talk • contribs)

Easter Rising Role

I came to this page looking for something about Connolly's role in the Easter Rising but it seemed to jump pretty much into his execution from his early life. Does anyone know enough about it to write something? because I don't... Helen-Eva 10:02, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Surely there's a sufficiency, between the Easter Rising and Irish Citizen Army articles, to cobble something together? --Orange Mike 17:00, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I think you're probably right, but as I hadn't heard of him until yesterday, I'll defer to someone with a bit more knowledge do the cobbling! Helen-Eva 08:24, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, bless you for thinking of it! I recommend reading a good biography of the man, as his is one of the most inspiring stories in Ireland's history, even though (like most of them) it ends tragically. --Orange Mike 18:10, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Years of service : mistake ?

He died in 1916 but years of service are supposed to be 1913-1923. Is it a mistake ? Poppypetty 22:46, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Stonebreakers yard

Why in the world do you not mention the Stonebreakers yard by name. Also missing is the commemorative cross that is placed in the spot that Connolly was shot. All of the others were executed at one end of the yard, Connolly's is on the opposite end. This cross, which I took a pictue of while lying on my stomach in the yard in 2000, became part of a photography and poetry exhibit I did about Kilmainham and Glasnevin shown in Dublin and New York, hangs above my bed now.

Birthplace

Whilst it seems generally accepted that Connolly was born in Edinburgh, the 1911 Census returns show that he gives his place of birth as Co Monaghan. Millbanks (talk) 14:40, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

As does the 1901 census. But see today's Irish Times letters page (sorry, no link, requires subscription for online version) - his parents' census return from Edinburgh in 1881 lists him as being born there. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 15:11, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Yes, I saw the letter. Interesting. Millbanks (talk) 18:24, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Religion

What's with the comparatively huge section on religion (compared to socialism, politics, revolution)? Propose cutting it unless there are objections... Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 15:08, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Per the note and template I added, the editor who created this section seems to be depending on original texts to convey Connolly's views on religion. (And other people's interpretation of those views.) If the question of Connolly's religious beliefs is relevant (and I'm not convinced it is) then this should be imparted with a SUMMARY based on those texts. Rather than a verbatim copy and paste of "quotes". Wikipedia is intended to be an encyclopedic interpretation of available texts, facts, quotes, comments, etc. Rather than a verbatim source for them. (Leaving it up to the reader to trawl and interpret.) I'd say summarise away. If you want to create a "sandbox" to do it,I'll gladly chip in to help summarise. Guliolopez (talk) 15:38, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

It should be transwiki'ed except for comment on the last-minute confession, and Pearse's comment on that.86.42.194.109 (talk) 20:31, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I think the question of his religious views is relevant and important, but not to the degree that that section makes it seem. His religious views (Catholic or otherwise) are certainly not more important than his views on, for instance, socialism. The section should be trimmed, though not deleted in its entirety. Whatever remains, of course, must be referenced. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 21:40, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

The deathbed confession is a classic of its sort; was he insecure or just anxious to ensure his future fame within a Catholic-nationalist movement?Red Hurley (talk) 22:18, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Why do you think that the section concerning his religious views ought to be "trimmed down", perhaps the other sections need to be expanded? His religious views are important, especially given that his most ardent supporters (today) are usually secular liberals or socialists and if wikipedia.org is to have any useful function, it ought to be to educate. Unfortunately the man has been appropriated by various groups and historians, much of what is in the public domain concerning Connolly's life and views are due largely from C. Desmond Greaves' Selected Works, which although interesting, is not a complete or even entirely accurate reflection of the whole man. Also, the problem with a summary is, who will summarize? The original texts allow the reader to 'make up their own minds', without depending on the objectivity of others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.1.229.15 (talk) 20:24, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Maybe not trimmed down, or not much, but religion was not that important to him. A new section on his writings would be a plus, as he covered a huge range of subjects for a man who was self-taught.Red Hurley (talk) 12:05, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Last to be executed?

We can split hairs here but Roger Casement was the last. Also the "uproar" on each side of the Atlantic is a bit POV; it was not universal.Red Hurley (talk) 22:18, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, only his supporters were in an uproar. A soldier wouldn't mind being shot in a chair if he was dying for a cause.86.42.199.40 (talk) 21:07, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Recent editing

Recent editing has resulted in the article becoming somewhat jumbled. There are two descriptions of his execution which don't differ from each other significantly. Perhaps the person editing this section could consider finishing what he's been doing so that we can judge whether it's actually an improvement. --Mia-etol (talk) 20:28, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I've dropped 'em a friendly note already. --Orange Mike | Talk 21:01, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

James Connolly statue, Troy, New York

Regarding the legacy of James Connolly, There is a statue of the great man in Troy, New York, USA There's a pcture of the statue at the following WWW address. http://www.wageslave.org/jcs/projects/troy/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.45.132.204 (talk) 18:40, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Nationality

Since Connolly was born in Edinburgh and took an active role in Scottish politics could we not call him an Irish and Scottish socialist in the introduction? --BRFC98 (talk) 15:59, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

There is no doubt that he was 'Scottish by virtue of his birth, residence and speech' which should cover that aspect of his nationality, and he self-identified as Irish 'in Ireland and especially in the United States'. See p 16 James Connolly: A Political Biography by Austen Morgan which covers the Irish aspect. RashersTierney (talk) 00:53, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

False claim about birthplace

I inserted the word "falsely" into the sentence dealing with Connolly's claims on the 1901 and 1911 census forms to have been born in County Monaghan. This was reverted. It is clearly accurate, and relevant that Connolly felt the need to lie about this. I will reinstate after a suitable period for discussion. Irvine22 (talk) 15:33, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Do you have any proof he did it falsely, maybe he was under the impression that was his birthplace? Given the mention earlier of his birthplace then this contradictory admission, it is clear without the word. O Fenian (talk) 09:47, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

The reason I reverted was not that I thought it was inaccurate, or irrelevant, but that it was unnecessary, per my edit summary. If Connolly was born in Edinburgh, and he stated Monaghan, then it was obviously incorrect. The addition of the word "falsely" is therefore commentary, not fact. If you want to assert that he "felt the need to lie about this", then you need only find a reliable source that says he felt this way. Scolaire (talk) 08:53, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I put the information where it belongs, as a note next to the accepted birthplace.Colemcginnis (talk) 17:44, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

There is a very big difference between the place you were born - which you can't help - and putting your name to false information when you are an adult (and a prolific writer, not least on history). Twice! I think that deserves more than a note as it reflects on his mature perception of truth (negatively) and on his pride in his Irish origins (positively).Red Hurley (talk) 08:12, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Is there a reliable source we can go to for a discussion of this? If so, it should be easy enough to add the content to the article. If not, it comes under the definition of original research, which is not allowed on WP. I said this ten months ago (just three posts up from this one) but nobody seems to have found a source in the meantime. Scolaire (talk) 09:40, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

It's not original research as it was mentioned in the Irish Times in 2007. Recently the Irish censuses have been digitised and put online, and the article arose from that. It's hard to think how he would have married without a birth cert, which would have given Scotland. He was picky about other people getting elementary details wrong.Red Hurley (talk) 17:23, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

You'll find him in the 1911 online census, aged 43, living at Lotts Road Dublin, occupation "National Organiser Socialed Service" (sic), place of birth "Co Monaghan". There was one other Dub JC in that census, at Rutland Place, a tram conductor born in Co Meath. None born in Scotland.Red Hurley (talk) 17:37, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Here's the family page online but the occupation now looks more like "National Organiser Socialist Party". Wife Lillie still with the Church of Ireland. Two children born in "Scotland", but JC himself in Monaghan. That's not original research now, just confirming what was in a paper of record.Red Hurley (talk) 17:51, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

That he put "Monaghan" on the census form is on record, albeit a primary document; I'm not disputing that. What I'm asking is, is there a reliable source that says it "reflects on his mature perception of truth (negatively) and on his pride in his Irish origins (positively)"? Can you give us the date of this Irish Times article, or tell us what exactly it said? Scolaire (talk) 22:38, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

No, "negatively/positively" is my own mature view of what makes it interesting, having read most of his work with interest. The IT cite is Irish Times (Dublin): p. 17. 12 Dec 2007, in the notes, and as I recall it only mentioned the bare but interesting fact that he had entered Monaghan as his POB in both the 1901 and 1911 censuses. Obviously he knew it was untrue, as he must have had his birth cert to marry Lillie, and obviously (to me anyway) the entries reflect "pride in his Irish origins" as his parents were from Monaghan. Maybe you have a better take on it, and my notions don't have to go in the article. But I don't think we can disregard two primary documents completed by the subject of an article. Here they are in the 1901 census. Editing out this sort of detail or relegating it to the notes comes across as Wikipedia:I just don't like it and hero-worship. History is all about newly revealed aspects coming out of the woodwork, and if not it becomes blind faith and propaganda. Both have their place on wikipedia, as even past propaganda is also of historical interest.Red Hurley (talk) 11:50, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

This is about Wikipedia policy, not about hero-worship, blind faith or propaganda. Wikipedia is not a history journal, it is an encyclopaedia. Anything that's not in reliable sources, preferably secondary sources, cannot go in the article. If the IT only "mentioned the bare but interesting fact" then that's all that this article can do. Commentary is not allowed. Scolaire (talk) 12:21, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Although unlikely, it is just possible that he may have been genuinely confused about his place of birth. As far as I am aware there is not and never has been a requirement to produce a birth certificate when marrying in Scotland. Remember that compulsory registration of births only began in Scotland in 1855 and many working class families might not have bothered keeping the certificate. PatGallacher (talk) 12:32, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Well then, "Though proud of his Irish background" in the lede with no cite is commentary as well, but most of us would agree with that. I suggest we put "Monaghan" in the text, citing the IT as a reputable secondary source, and also linking the census pages for those interested. PatGallacher, again we would need a cite from a reputable source that his parents had not registered the birth or had lost the cert; but certs can be copied.Red Hurley (talk) 13:21, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

...and here is his birth cert from 1868. An online fan suggests that he may have put Monaghan to avoid trouble having deserted the British army. Can anyone say what the desertion legal outcome was?Red Hurley (talk) 13:32, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

When did Connolly go to America?

This is a badly written article. ( No offence ) but considering his huge contribution to Irish life - his writings, his trade union involvement, his political involvement, his contribution to the 1916 rising, his approval of the Suffragette movement and what it stood for etc. Well, the article as it is now seems clumsy. We suddenly find he was in the USA, yet we're not informed about when or why he went there. Too much of an emphasis on religion in this article. I've read most of writings and with the exception of the booklet 'Labour, Nationality and Religion', his writings aren't about religion at all. PS - John Lennon mentions James Connolly at the end of a recorded live version of the song 'Woman is the nigger of the world' - He says 'Connolly was right'. TonyK

'Irish socialist' again

An IP has changed "Scottish and Irish socialist" to "Irish socialist". I agree with this change. Connolly was born into an Irish family in the Irish area of Edinburgh. He would have been considered Irish both by his own community and by those outside it. Although he first became involved in socialism in Scotland, it was only seven years before he left the country forever, and he wouldn't have been a major figure in Scottish socialism. If the Scots are really anxious to claim him, how about "Scottish-born Irish socialist? Scolaire (talk) 19:23, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Irish name

I am aware that there is an informal convention not to use the Irish version of a person's name unless that person used it him- or herself, but that convention is not universally applicable, nor should it be. The purpose of the convention was to stop editors randomly adding Irish versions of names taken from a dictionary of Irish names. Séamas Ó Conghaile, however, is a well-known, commonly-used name for Connolly, notable enough to appear in the first sentence of the lead. For instance, Connolly Station is Stáisiún Uí Chonghaile in Irish (compare Heuston Station / Stáisiún Heuston). At any rate, I have now provided a citation to a biography of Connolly by a notable author, so WP:V and WP:RS are satisfied. Scolaire (talk) 11:22, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

You're right; it gets a bit unreal when Roger Casement is "Ruairí Mac Easmainn", where "Ruairí" is modern Irish and "Mac Easmainn" is just phonetic. For JC the station makes the difference and Uí Chonghaile is accurate.Red Hurley (talk) 18:04, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

"Séamas Ó Conghaile" is neither well-known nor commonly used. The railway station translation is a translation of the name of the railway station (which just happens to be named after Connolly). Mooretwin (talk) 08:50, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Mooretwin, the railway station was only an example. To anybody who knows both Irish and history the name "Séamas Ó Chonghaile" is well known. The book I cited is by a reputable author and refers to him as "Ó Chonghaile" throughout. Please do not assume that because you are not familiar with something it is therefore not well known. If you look at my contributions you will see that I am not on any campaign to add Irish names. Please refrain from knee-jerk reverts. Scolaire (talk) 09:03, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

IMOS says "the mere fact that an Irish name appears in certain sources is not sufficient evidence that it is commonly used". The onus is on you to demonstrate that the Gaelic version of Connolly's name is commonly used, and also to seek consensus for its inclusion. In the meantime, you should remove it from the article. If you can demonstrate its common usage, I will support its inclusion, but not before. Mooretwin (talk) 09:17, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Wrong way round. The stable version includes the name, it is up to you to gain consensus for removal. Something I will never agree to, as a matter of principle. O Fenian (talk) 11:30, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

If IMOS is going to interpreted so pedantically and inflexibly, then perhaps it needs to be re-worded to reflect a more 'common sense' approach. I'm not in favour of the application of 'novel' Irish names, but that is not the case here. RashersTierney (talk) 11:09, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

"The mere fact that an Irish name appears in certain sources is not sufficient evidence that it is commonly used" was my wording. "Certain sources" means things like the Oireachtas database of members, which are not particularly recommended by WP:RS. RS specifies, and I quote, "When available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources." That is what I have cited here. Please don't give me that "the onus is on you" stuff. I was careful to source the information before I put it in, and you need a better reason than that for removing it, especially when consensus is obviously in favour of keeping it. Scolaire (talk) 11:34, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Having said all that, the SOC article as Gaeilge here is very, very much shorter than the one in the Asturian dialect here. Can the Asturian miners' strike of 1934 be the only reason?Red Hurley (talk) 12:29, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

IMOS doesn't define "certain sources" and Scolaire has no authority to impose his interpretation of what is meant by "certain sources". We need evidence that the Gaelic name is commonly used. So far that is lacking - a single source doesn't demonstrate common usage. Mooretwin (talk) 11:23, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

I see the patrol has arrived. It was only a matter of time. No point in trying to comply with the guideline now. Goodbye. Mooretwin (talk) 11:33, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Connolly occasionally signed his articles using the Irish form of his first name. See for example pages 3 and 4 in http://www.redbannermagazine.com/HC%203.pdf Conghaileach (talk) 23:49, 10 July 2011 (UTC)