Talk:The Holocaust

Spanish Republicans

Why are the former Spanish Republicans exterminated in Nazi's concentration camps not mentioned in the article? Many of those who went to exile in France after the Spanish Civil War were rounded up by Vichy's government and handled over to the Germans. They even had a different badge for identification (a blue triangle.) Here is an interesting link: http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Mauthausen/KZMauthausen/History/SpanishRepublicans.html

Why did nazis take pictures and record video?

Why did the nazis take pictures and record video of the holocaust? Since historians say that nazis were the first holocaust deniers with application to keeping all messages sent about the holocaust clean of words relating to the killing of jews, why would the nazis take pictures and make video of the holocaust if they were such "nazis" about the use of certain words in their messages? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.103.132.122 (talk • contribs) 22:28, 9 July 2011

there are always some troops who make photos --even covert ones. whether documenting abuses, celebrating "accomplishments", or just making a personal scrapbook. even today with secret activity: surely commanders would not have wanted the US troops to make so many photos of the abu grahib abuses during the iraq war/occupation, but there those incriminating photos are. you get a big enough group of people (soldiers), SOMEbody will take pictures. in the case of nazi abuses, some photos are by gloating nazis and by municipal authorities. however many of the better known photos seem to be covert photos by members of underground movements or even by camp inmates themselves. some famed images of auschwitz victims were made by a prisoner who --if i remember right-- sneaked a camera out of the sorting area (of luggage and personal effects left by gassed victims) to document some of the scenes for posterity. the images are rare, but they happen. Cramyourspam (talk) 14:23, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Reverting to Barenbaum's quote of genocidal state

There has been discussion in the past about the quote "genocidal state". It is a striking term which Barenbaum substantiates with vivid examples, parish churches, the post office, universities, German firms etc. Replacing it with the Hilberg quote loses the detail. Barenbaum's quote is reinforced in the following para by Friedlander. The proposed quote from Hilberg does add an emphasis to the fact of the decentralized nature of a process in trying to realize the three "premises" (objectives) drew in a wide variety of people and institutions. Maybe something of that nature could be added. I do believe it is not for us to decide how Barenbaum came up with his quote, i.e. cutting and pasting, he is a respected authority and does add important detail.Joel Mc (talk) 17:02, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Needlessly confused subject matter - this article as well as the related articles and infoboxes and categories need to be completely rewritten

The Holocaust was just the WWII-era genocide of Jews. Nothing else or more. For the rest, Wikipedia needs to make some other article covering Nazi atrocities in general.

The mainstream definition is very simple:

• Encyclopædia Britannica: Holocaust, Hebrew Shoʾah, Yiddish and Hebrew Ḥurban (“Destruction”), the systematic state-sponsored killing of six million Jewish men, women, and children and millions of others by Nazi Germany and its collaborators during World War II. [1]
• United States Holocaust Memorial Museum: The Holocaust was the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of approximately six million Jews by the Nazi regime and its collaborators.[2]
• Yad Vashem: The Holocaust was the murder by Nazi Germany of six million Jews.[3]

Now go and clearly separate everything else regarding the era of Holocaust, instead of confusing people. Just look at the Holocaust infobox ("Romani people (Gypsies), Poles, Soviet POWs, Slavs in Eastern Europe, Homosexuals, People with disabilities, Serbs, Freemasons, Jehovah's Witnesses") or the "Non Jewish" section here in this very article - that's all incorrect, according to the mainstream understanding of the Holocaust, and not some fringe theories. Unless someone was mistaken for a Jew, he was not a victim of the Holocaust (to put it bluntly).

Also the real number was rather over 5 million (most probably some 5.4 million) murdered Jews, but the mainstream definition ia "approximately" 6 million so be it.

I only realised the mistake by Wikipedia after noticing how many films in List of Holocaust films were not about the Holocaust. --194.145.185.229 (talk) 14:13, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

OK, I just noticed "and millions of others" in Britannica - but not in the two others. --194.145.185.229 (talk) 14:14, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

I certainly agree. Wrote about it months ago: Article is too long etc but no reaction at all.Joel Mc (talk) 15:04, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

It's a significant task to completely rewrite this article. Have you tried to improve it yourself - and therefore realise the scale of the task and the difficulties involved? (Hohum ^@) 20:35, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

I have followed this page for more than four years and have watched a number of editors try to deal with the problems that I raised above and this leads me to be pessimistic about the possibilities of making the necessary changes. The actual editing should not be that hard, the problem is dealing with the competing agendas which in my view do not belong on a page which should deal only with the mass murder of some six million Jews. Plenty of room for another article to deal with the murder of around six million non-Jews by the Nazis.Joel Mc (talk) 21:01, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Why doesn't this article address the arguments of Holocaust denyers?

I know there are a lot of people out there that deny certain aspects of the holocaust. I am not familiar with their arguments but I was looking for them out of curiosity and thought I would find them in WIKIPEDIA! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.162.155.185 (talk) 18:13, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Holocaust denial is a fringe topic and doesn't receive much coverage on this page, but we do have an article which covers it in depth. --Daniel 20:42, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Jewish death toll update

My minor edit entailed moving the third paragraph in the section "Victims and death toll", which deals only with Jews down under the section heading Jewish. I then added a new referenced para which brings the statistics more up to date. Finally, I moved the para about Yiddish to the end of the subsection. I have removed nothing at this stage even though some of the statistics, have been superceded. I would hesitate to remove Hilberg as he was the real pioneer, Gilbert was important, but is now out of date. This is true also for Dawidowicz's estimates of those killed although her estimates of pre-war populations probably still hold. I could try and incorporate Benz's figures in another column of her table, recalculating Percent killed. The Yiddish para also probably belongs some place else. I have tip-toed around the Pandora's box re: the Non-Jewish subsections. I am sure it remains a puzzle to most readers why they are included in an article about the mass-murder of Europe's Jews by the Nazis, particularly when virtually each subsection is linked to a main article on that subject.Joel Mc (talk) 16:00, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure on your definition. To some, it may be strange to be told that non Jews who were killed, for instance, in a gas chamber alongside Jews, were not victims of the same Holocaust. (Hohum ^@) 18:16, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Denial?

Another editor has used the current practice at this article of not discussing Holocaust denial in the article, but only having it as a See also link as an exemplar for another article. I am having a hard job finding a consensus in talk for doing it this way. Our style guide on See also sections suggests that as an article develops, links like this should migrate into the article proper. I am interested to know what other editors here think about this. How was this arrived at? Does it enjoy current consensus? What about the future? --John (talk) 18:10, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

The article is about the Holocaust, an event which occured in the 1940's during World War II, Holocaust denial is not part of the Holocaust, it's for the most part fringe theories unsupported by facts advanced by people after the historical period in question who tend to be anti-semitic. If people want to read about The Holocaust they'll read this, if they want to read about Holocaust denial they'll read that. 7mike5000 (talk) 05:59, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Ref. to Gellaty

Clicking on the reference to Gellaty (12) takes one to a newspaper review, not to anything by Robert Gellaty. Moreover, that review merely says that persecution and killings up to the outbreak of World War II were widely known among the ordinary German public. There's nothing remarkable in this statement. However, any claim that systematic extermination (from 1941 onwards) was well known and regularly reported in the German media at the time (1941-45) would indeed be astonishing and would need very reliable, virtually foolproof sources. The matter is complicated by the fact that the lead refers to the conspiracy. Conspiracies are only reported in the media when uncovered. At present the last paragraph give massively undue weight to claims ascribed to Gellaty. Norvo (talk) 00:17, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Holoskaustos

Holoskaustos does mean wholly (holos) burnt (kaustos), but the Greeks didn't use it that way. They used it as the term for "peace offer" or "peace sacrifice". In case of a normal sacrifice, only a piece of the sacrifice was burnt, the rest was eaten. If one had to make up with the Gods, they burnt everytging. That's why I suggest to change the literally tranlation, as this one might make people believe that the Holocaust means that every victim was burnt, or that the person who came up with this name thought that. This of course, is not true, as many victims were burried and not burnt. Mijnnaamgaatunietaan (talk) 20:10, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Introduction seems to downplay non-Jewish victims

The introductory paragraph reads "the genocide of approximately six million European Jews and millions of others." I find this wording offensive and propose that "the genocide of seventeen million people, some six million of whom were European Jews" be substituted as a more neutral wording. While the largest single group to perish in the Holocaust were Jewish, they constituted roughly 35% of all Holocaust victims and to give any one group of victims precedence over any others is quite frankly wrong. Interlaker (talk) 22:09, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

As the article states, the most common definition of the Holocaust is the state-sponsored mass killing or genocide of European Jews by the Nazi regime. A more broad, less common definition of the Holocaust is the state-sponsored mass killing or genocide of various European ethnicities by the Nazi regime. The article notes both definitions, and the relative use of each definition. See The Holocaust#Etymology and use of the term and The Holocaust#Victims and death toll for citations for the reliable sources that comment on the issue.

In any event, this issue has been raised and answered before. Search "definition" in the above search box for this discussion page to review the prior discussions leading to the current consensus. Singularity42 (talk) 23:14, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Institutional collaboration

Perhaps there can be a reference to Archbishop Damaskinos of Athens and his call, along with members of the greek academic community, to halt the deportation of Greek Jews from Nazi occupied Greece. Damaskinos formally protested against the deportation, clashed with the german authorities and was threatened to be shot, in an incident documented by "The International Raoul Wallenberg Foundation" (http://www.raoulwallenberg.net/general/greek-orthodox-church-academic/).

Apart from that, the greek version of the article about the Archibishop claims that he ordered the priests to supply the Jews with certificates of (orthodox) baptism, in order to rescue them from arrest by the Nazis, but i can't provide any source for that.