Talk:BSA Rocket 3/Triumph Trident

General Edits

28-AUG-2006: I made some small but significant edits to this page. The entire page really needs a good cleanup - there is too much that is either inaccurate or pure conjecture (not to mention numerous spelling mistakes). -Kim

It looks like some folk are not being particularly helpful with their edits. Let's see if we can get along and be a little more constructive. Kim Rowden 16:07, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

@Biker Biker : the guidelines for external links allow reference to a resource such as Triples Online. In fact, if they don't then the link to Ian Chadwick's page should also be removed - his page is far more of a personal project than Triples Online. The guidelines do not ban links to a site containing a Forum - they do suggest that a site that hosts Forums (Yahoo, Google etc) is "normally to be avoided". Triples Online meets none of the restrictions that Wikipedia lists for links that should be normally avoided. It is not a fansite, it does not contain unverifiable information, it does not contain malware, it is not a blog, it is not a personal page. It is a reference resource. Kim Rowden 16:36, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, but it is a forum/fansite. Besides that however, it doesn't belong for other reasons too. Look at the very first of the criteria at WP:ELNO which states "Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a featured article". It clearly fails that. Wikipedia is not a how-to guide so that makes all the how-to info on the site irrelevant. The information on individual bikes is no better than what is on Wikipedia already and in some cases is far inferior. Also, some of the information hosted on the site includes scanned brochures, which are covered by copyright and therefore excludes the site from being linked to on Wikipedia (see WP:ELNEVER). --Biker Biker (talk) 16:51, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Taking your forum/fansite viewpoint would mean taking out half the links on Wikipedia! The guidelines only talk about forum sites that host forums - if you don't understand this concept then there is no point discussing this further, I will happily raise it as a formal issue with Wikipedia. As to being unique... Wikipedia will never have access to the factory records - so that makes Triples Online instantly unique. Come on. As to copyright: again, you are completely mistaken. There is no copyright on the brochures - they are in the public domain. The new owners of the Triumph and the BSA names did not take on the copyright for printed material when they bought out the old assets from NVT etc. I have had ongoing discussion with both of the new owners - where do you get your information? Please, let's focus on fact and not on second-hand hearsay.

I posted the first comment to this discussion/talk page back in 2006. I simply created a formal section heading for it. Kim Rowden 17:07, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

"Other stuff exists" is not really a reason to keep your link. In fact I now realise that Triples Online is run by Kim Rowden. Unfortunately WP:COI means that you shouldn't be posting the link here. You can certainly argue for it to be kept, but you must not add it to the encyclopaedia. So, coming back to the other stuff - I certainly do believe that a lot more links should be removed from Wikipedia and whenever I come across glaringly bad ones I do remove them. Other editors also remove links and slowly but surely we are purging the collection of motorcycle articles on Wikipedia of unsuitable links. If you see links you think don't belong then please join the cleanup effort and help us get rid of them. --Biker Biker (talk) 17:12, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

OK - so you clearly have little to no objectivity here. I respond to each of your unverifiable claims with fact and you pick another topic to argue about. Why do you put "Other stuff exists" in quotes? - I never used that term and nor has anyone else on this discussion page. This isn't a productive use of time and leaves inaccurate statements on Wikipedia - which already suffers from a bad name in many circles. I'll certainly consider your comments and maybe I'll come back with an official DR submission. Kim Rowden (talk) 17:32, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Please attempt a modicum of civility, Kim Rowden. External links to fansites are not acceptable on Wikipedia; they are more suitable for DMOZ. tedder (talk) 18:08, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Hey - I'm not a professional Wikipedia editor (I'm amazed how quickly I got sucked into this rat hole) but I can see from your history that you're proud to have been accused of being a sockpuppet. What should one think? It looks like I'm wasting my time here... clearly to have one link kept and the other removed is pure idiocy. My objective was/is to have clear and factual data on the Classic British Triples page on Wikipedia - I have no interest in the rest of the site. From both of your public personas neither of you two seem to be Triple enthusiasts and both seem to have to hide behind pseudonyms. That's a shame.

Number of machines produced

As a member of the TR3OC and the Triumph Owners Club UK, I nor either of the secretaries/historians have ever heard of a possible number of greater than 30,000 models being produced. I am very sure on the records being poor, as my own Trident T150V was supposed to be (according to the official factory records) shipped to Sweden - where as, it ended up in South London! Interesting series of correspondence between myself and the Triumph Owners club historian, who took copies of all my machines original paper work. Who ever dabbed in 33,330 needs their head examined and to stop listening to their mates down the pub, and remember the numbers need back-up - particularly on Wiki as an encyclopaedia! Rgds, - Trident13 04:14, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Not badge engineering

Having a different frame and different engine positioning is not badge engineering. Respectfully, SamBlob 10:53, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

same basis for the engine but both built by BSA, assembly at one site, sold under different names - sounds like badge engineering. compare with Wolesley Hornet/Riley Elf/BMC Mini. GraemeLeggett 11:53, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Badge engineering is the same car wearing different badges. The Hornet and Elf were badge-engineered versions of each other, but not of the Mini with which they shared the platform. There was never a Morris Mini, BMC Mini, Austin Mini, or Rover Mini with a long boot like the Hornet or the Elf. Similarly, if the Rocket 3 had a different frame from the Trident, then it's not simply badge engineering. Respectfully, SamBlob 01:41, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

The Mini Countryman and Traveller estates, the pickup and vans were a bit different from the saloon Mini; I don't see the boot argument stacking up.GraemeLeggett 09:02, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Badge engineering is when the badge and a few minor exterior panels are changed between cars. Platform sharing is when a platform is used as a basis for a different car. Grafting a boot on is a structural change and is rather more involved than a different grille and badge.

The other versions you talk about are also different cars from the basic Mini. If any of them had been given exclusively to another division, e.g. if the Traveller had been given to Wolseley exclusively or the panel van had been given to Morris Commercial exclusively, then that would not have been badge engineering but platform sharing. Respectfully, SamBlob 13:38, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

New Category for British Motorcycles

As part of the Motorcycling WikiProject I am working though all the missing articles and stubs for British Bikes. To make things easier to sort out I have created a category for British motorcycles. Please will you add to any British motorcycle pages you find or create. It will also help to keep things organised if you use the Template:Infobox Motorcycle or add it where it is missing. I've linked the Category to the Commons British Motorcycles so you could help with matching pics to articles or adding the missing images to the Commons - take your camera next time you go to a rally! Thanks Tony (talk) 13:08, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

On the contrary, this and other articles should be categorized according to the guidelines in Wikipedia:Categorization. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 18:45, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

First "true" superbike?

First of all, "true" superbike is pure POV. The word "true" in any Wikipedia article merely conveys how strident a Wikipedia editor was in their opinion, and should be removed unless it can be specifically attributed to a reputable source. And it would help if the source can tell us where they're getting their definition of a "true" superbike.

A majority of sources credit the Honda CB750 as the vanguard of the 'superbike era'. It is a verifiable fact that the Rocket/Trident debuted 3 months before the CB750, but then the CB750 wasn't the very first bike to offer high performance. The reason a "new era" was recognized was because the Honda was the whole package: affordable, reliable, practical, well rounded. The Rocket/Trident had the performance, but was also flawed in many ways. And a majority of sources say so:

• Statnekov, Daniel K.; Guggenheim Museum Staff (2003), "Honda CB750 Four", in Krens; Drutt (eds.), The Art of the Motorcycle, Harry N. Abrams, ISBN 0810969122 {{citation}}: Unknown parameter |editor1first= ignored (|editor-first1= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |editor2first= ignored (|editor-first2= suggested) (help)
• Landon Hall (July/August 20069). "Honda CB750 Four: A Classic for the Masses". Motorcycle Classics. Retrieved 2010-11-17. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Holmstrom, Darwin (2001), The Complete Idiot's Guide to Motorcycles (2nd ed.), Alpha Books, pp. 20–21, 33–41, 334–358, 407, ISBN 0028642589
• De Cet, Mirco (2004), Essential Superbike, Motorbooks International, pp. 8–9, 18, 127, ISBN 0760320071
• Brown, Roland (2005), The ultimate history of fast motorcycles, Bath, England: Parragon, p. 9, ISBN 1405454660
• The Dawn of the Superbike: Honda's Remarkable CB750, Motorcycle Hall of Fame, retrieved 2010-06-01</ref>
• Walker, Mick (2001), Performance Motorcycles, Amber Books, Ltd. and Chartwell Books (Book Sales, Inc.), pp. 26, 58, 76, 102, ISBN 0785813802

Margie Siegal's opinion was that the Rocket 3/Trident "…was, in fact, the first Superbike of the Sixties". We should definitely quote this minority opinion, but we should give more weight to the majority of opinion, and explain why they take that position. WP:UNDUE helps clarify the Wikipedia policy here.

Hopefully readers new to the subject will understand both arguments and learn something about motorcycle history and culture in the story of why this bike was overshadowed by the CB750, rather than merely being given dogma as to what was the first "true" superbike. The purpose of Wikipedia is not to settle disputes once and for all. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 19:04, 16 September 2011 (UTC)