Talk:BSA Rocket 3/Triumph Trident

General Edits

28-AUG-2006: I made some small but significant edits to this page. The entire page really needs a good cleanup - there is too much that is either inaccurate or pure conjecture (not to mention numerous spelling mistakes). -Kim

It looks like some folk are not being particularly helpful with their edits. Let's see if we can get along and be a little more constructive. Kim Rowden 16:07, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

@Biker Biker : the guidelines for external links allow reference to a resource such as Triples Online. In fact, if they don't then the link to Ian Chadwick's page should also be removed - his page is far more of a personal project than Triples Online. The guidelines do not ban links to a site containing a Forum - they do suggest that a site that hosts Forums (Yahoo, Google etc) is "normally to be avoided". Triples Online meets none of the restrictions that Wikipedia lists for links that should be normally avoided. It is not a fansite, it does not contain unverifiable information, it does not contain malware, it is not a blog, it is not a personal page. It is a reference resource. Kim Rowden 16:36, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, but it is a forum/fansite. Besides that however, it doesn't belong for other reasons too. Look at the very first of the criteria at WP:ELNO which states "Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a featured article". It clearly fails that. Wikipedia is not a how-to guide so that makes all the how-to info on the site irrelevant. The information on individual bikes is no better than what is on Wikipedia already and in some cases is far inferior. Also, some of the information hosted on the site includes scanned brochures, which are covered by copyright and therefore excludes the site from being linked to on Wikipedia (see WP:ELNEVER). --Biker Biker (talk) 16:51, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Taking your forum/fansite viewpoint would mean taking out half the links on Wikipedia! The guidelines only talk about forum sites that host forums - if you don't understand this concept then there is no point discussing this further, I will happily raise it as a formal issue with Wikipedia. As to being unique... Wikipedia will never have access to the factory records - so that makes Triples Online instantly unique. Come on. As to copyright: again, you are completely mistaken. There is no copyright on the brochures - they are in the public domain. The new owners of the Triumph and the BSA names did not take on the copyright for printed material when they bought out the old assets from NVT etc. I have had ongoing discussion with both of the new owners - where do you get your information? Please, let's focus on fact and not on second-hand hearsay.

I posted the first comment to this discussion/talk page back in 2006. I simply created a formal section heading for it. Kim Rowden 17:07, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

"Other stuff exists" is not really a reason to keep your link. In fact I now realise that Triples Online is run by Kim Rowden. Unfortunately WP:COI means that you shouldn't be posting the link here. You can certainly argue for it to be kept, but you must not add it to the encyclopaedia. So, coming back to the other stuff - I certainly do believe that a lot more links should be removed from Wikipedia and whenever I come across glaringly bad ones I do remove them. Other editors also remove links and slowly but surely we are purging the collection of motorcycle articles on Wikipedia of unsuitable links. If you see links you think don't belong then please join the cleanup effort and help us get rid of them. --Biker Biker (talk) 17:12, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

OK - so you clearly have little to no objectivity here. I respond to each of your unverifiable claims with fact and you pick another topic to argue about. Why do you put "Other stuff exists" in quotes? - I never used that term and nor has anyone else on this discussion page. This isn't a productive use of time and leaves inaccurate statements on Wikipedia - which already suffers from a bad name in many circles. I'll certainly consider your comments and maybe I'll come back with an official DR submission. Kim Rowden (talk) 17:32, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Please attempt a modicum of civility, Kim Rowden. External links to fansites are not acceptable on Wikipedia; they are more suitable for DMOZ. tedder (talk) 18:08, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Hey - I'm not a professional Wikipedia editor (I'm amazed how quickly I got sucked into this rat hole) but I can see from your history that you're proud to have been accused of being a sockpuppet. What should one think? It looks like I'm wasting my time here... clearly to have one link kept and the other removed is pure idiocy. My objective was/is to have clear and factual data on the Classic British Triples page on Wikipedia - I have no interest in the rest of the site. From both of your public personas neither of you two seem to be Triple enthusiasts and both seem to have to hide behind pseudonyms. That's a shame. Kim Rowden (talk) 18:29, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Again, focus on the content, not the contributor. Lashing out about editors is pointless and against Wikipedia policy. It's also generally an unproductive way to move forward. tedder (talk) 18:32, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

I would remove the Ian Chadwick link except for the fact that Mr. Chadwick is recognized as an expert on the subject. Whereas a club/forum site is a collection of opinions and anecdotes from individuals who are either anonymous or not noted as experts.

Others reading this have in fact heard of "other stuff exists". There's a whole page on it: Wikipedia:Other stuff exists. If one's goal is to make Wikipedia better, then by all means, go and delete any links you find which violate the guidelines on external links. If an editor's only goal is to advertise his concern, the usual experience is a poor one. Nothing gets advertised and the editor goes away mad. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 18:46, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Ok, this has become very silly... if you really are interested in helping other people learn about Triples then show me a website (other than perhaps the TR3OC website) that has more Triple content than Triples Online. You guys have no clue, you are unknowns in the Triple community and and you do the general public a dis-service. Oh...and Dennis, I think you have to provide a reference/citation when you make a claims from the hip: "Mr. Chadwick is recognized as an expert on the subject" - no offence to Ian, but not in Triple circles he isn't. And to boot (again, no offence to Ian) his website is CLEARLY a personal website, it has a forum, it even has a blog! And as for your personal page - isn't the brief paragraph an entire COI? Very sad guys. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kim Rowden (talk • contribs) 19:11, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

One example of a citation of Chadwick from Google Scholar: [23]. Another mention at the Nashua, NH Telegraph: [24]. Ianchadwick.com does appear to be a unique resource by a recognized expert. Although it's important to remember that Wikipedia is not a collection of links and keeping that link to ianchadwick.com isn't vital; the article can certainly live without it. What the article really needs are inline citations to quality sources. Appropriate external links are sometimes nice, but not the main point.

And if triplesonline.com really is such an important site for the Rocket 3/Trident, then anybody with a computer is very likely to find it on their own. Since Wikipedia is not a directory, what actually is the purpose of advertising it? The site ranks highly at Google. Wikipedia is not suppressing vital knowledge by not linking to triplesonline.com. But going by Wikipedia's standards -- WP:RS and WP:ELNO, Triples Online doesn't meet the criteria. There are many paths to knowledge: finding anecdotes and personal experiences at club and forum sites can be valuable and you have to respect readers enough to believe they know how to find and read sites like that. But Wikipedia is a different path to knowledge: it's an encyclopedia that gives you summaries of what recognized authorizes say. It's a relatively conservative approach but that's what an encyclopedia is. Wikipedia doesn't not attack web sites that offer other paths to knowledge; Wikipedia does not censor these things from the world. How could it? Wikipedia does what Wikipedia does and your site is fine, the same as it ever was. Not harmed at all. But Wikipedia does not owe you or your site anything. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 20:48, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

(for those reading at home: Biker Biker removed a comment I had made. Check the History for this section) And I didn't make the claim about being uncivil or "lashing out" or calling someone a "troll" - you really can't go editing and removing stuff that has become part of the discussion. And why don't you respond to my questions about the Chadwick link? Kim Rowden (talk) 19:36, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Alright, let's all settle down. Sorry for the hassle, Kim. My name's Borjan. I apologize for the pseudonym I edit under, but it's a bit of a self-styled flair to use on Wikipedia.

I think we're having a bit of misunderstanding here. Mainly, a lot of the discussion seems to be oriented about the actions of other editors, not the content of the page itself. Mind if I get a summary of events, Kim? Likewise from Biker Biker. I'd just like to see if we can get a discourse going and figure things out civilly. Everyone's cooperation and input is appreciated. m.o.p 20:18, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks M.O.P. The summary of the two issues are very simple. A series of IP editors reinstated the triples website several times to the article calling its removal "vandalism". Then today Kim Rowden - the owner of the website - reinstated it once more. So issue number 1 is that there is a clear conflict of interest in a website owner repeatedly adding his website to Wikipedia. Issue number 2 is that the website clearly fails WP:ELNO as it adds little or no value to Wikipedia. Once you cut through all the personal attacks it is that simple - the COI promotion of an unwelcome link. --Biker Biker (talk) 21:12, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Do you have any clear evidence of the IP editors being related to the user's account? m.o.p 21:20, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Nothing more than a good old WP:DUCK suspicion. --Biker Biker (talk) 21:36, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Borjan, I'm totally unimpressed with the process thus far so please forgive any trace of cynicism. I think all the comments can be distilled down to this: The others involved seem to think that Ian Chadwick's site should be allowed as an external link. I believe that Triples Online is a far more useful and complete supporting resource for the article in question. The Chadwick site is self-proclaimed to be personal, has a blog, has a forum, is not directly focused on classic British Triples (ie: the focus of this article in question), and the author is not an expert on the aforementioned Triples. If that site and its setting do not infringe on Wikipedia's external link policy then Triples Online should be welcomed by Wikipedia with open arms for this article as it is not a personal site, does not have a blog and is renowned for the accuracy and honesty of the information found there. I'm tired of having to provide answers to anonymous people who continually shift the point of their complaint. If the only sticking point that the 'others' cannot bear is that I am the one posting the link, then would I be right in assuming that any other member of the general public can post it? Please confirm. Kim Rowden (talk) 21:48, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Number of machines produced

As a member of the TR3OC and the Triumph Owners Club UK, I nor either of the secretaries/historians have ever heard of a possible number of greater than 30,000 models being produced. I am very sure on the records being poor, as my own Trident T150V was supposed to be (according to the official factory records) shipped to Sweden - where as, it ended up in South London! Interesting series of correspondence between myself and the Triumph Owners club historian, who took copies of all my machines original paper work. Who ever dabbed in 33,330 needs their head examined and to stop listening to their mates down the pub, and remember the numbers need back-up - particularly on Wiki as an encyclopaedia! Rgds, - Trident13 04:14, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Not badge engineering

Having a different frame and different engine positioning is not badge engineering. Respectfully, SamBlob 10:53, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

same basis for the engine but both built by BSA, assembly at one site, sold under different names - sounds like badge engineering. compare with Wolesley Hornet/Riley Elf/BMC Mini. GraemeLeggett 11:53, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Badge engineering is the same car wearing different badges. The Hornet and Elf were badge-engineered versions of each other, but not of the Mini with which they shared the platform. There was never a Morris Mini, BMC Mini, Austin Mini, or Rover Mini with a long boot like the Hornet or the Elf. Similarly, if the Rocket 3 had a different frame from the Trident, then it's not simply badge engineering. Respectfully, SamBlob 01:41, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

The Mini Countryman and Traveller estates, the pickup and vans were a bit different from the saloon Mini; I don't see the boot argument stacking up.GraemeLeggett 09:02, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Badge engineering is when the badge and a few minor exterior panels are changed between cars. Platform sharing is when a platform is used as a basis for a different car. Grafting a boot on is a structural change and is rather more involved than a different grille and badge.

The other versions you talk about are also different cars from the basic Mini. If any of them had been given exclusively to another division, e.g. if the Traveller had been given to Wolseley exclusively or the panel van had been given to Morris Commercial exclusively, then that would not have been badge engineering but platform sharing. Respectfully, SamBlob 13:38, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

New Category for British Motorcycles

As part of the Motorcycling WikiProject I am working though all the missing articles and stubs for British Bikes. To make things easier to sort out I have created a category for British motorcycles. Please will you add to any British motorcycle pages you find or create. It will also help to keep things organised if you use the Template:Infobox Motorcycle or add it where it is missing. I've linked the Category to the Commons British Motorcycles so you could help with matching pics to articles or adding the missing images to the Commons - take your camera next time you go to a rally! Thanks Tony (talk) 13:08, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

On the contrary, this and other articles should be categorized according to the guidelines in Wikipedia:Categorization. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 18:45, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

First "true" superbike?

First of all, "true" superbike is pure POV. The word "true" in any Wikipedia article merely conveys how strident a Wikipedia editor was in their opinion, and should be removed unless it can be specifically attributed to a reputable source. And it would help if the source can tell us where they're getting their definition of a "true" superbike.

A majority of sources credit the Honda CB750 as the vanguard of the 'superbike era'. It is a verifiable fact that the Rocket/Trident debuted 3 months before the CB750, but then the CB750 wasn't the very first bike to offer high performance. The reason a "new era" was recognized was because the Honda was the whole package: affordable, reliable, practical, well rounded. The Rocket/Trident had the performance, but was also flawed in many ways. And a majority of sources say so:

• Statnekov, Daniel K.; Guggenheim Museum Staff (2003), "Honda CB750 Four", in Krens; Drutt (eds.), The Art of the Motorcycle, Harry N. Abrams, ISBN 0810969122 {{citation}}: Unknown parameter |editor1first= ignored (|editor-first1= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |editor2first= ignored (|editor-first2= suggested) (help)
• Landon Hall (July/August 20069). "Honda CB750 Four: A Classic for the Masses". Motorcycle Classics. Retrieved 2010-11-17. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Holmstrom, Darwin (2001), The Complete Idiot's Guide to Motorcycles (2nd ed.), Alpha Books, pp. 20–21, 33–41, 334–358, 407, ISBN 0028642589
• De Cet, Mirco (2004), Essential Superbike, Motorbooks International, pp. 8–9, 18, 127, ISBN 0760320071
• Brown, Roland (2005), The ultimate history of fast motorcycles, Bath, England: Parragon, p. 9, ISBN 1405454660
• The Dawn of the Superbike: Honda's Remarkable CB750, Motorcycle Hall of Fame, retrieved 2010-06-01</ref>
• Walker, Mick (2001), Performance Motorcycles, Amber Books, Ltd. and Chartwell Books (Book Sales, Inc.), pp. 26, 58, 76, 102, ISBN 0785813802

Margie Siegal's opinion was that the Rocket 3/Trident "…was, in fact, the first Superbike of the Sixties". We should definitely quote this minority opinion, but we should give more weight to the majority of opinion, and explain why they take that position. WP:UNDUE helps clarify the Wikipedia policy here.

Hopefully readers new to the subject will understand both arguments and learn something about motorcycle history and culture in the story of why this bike was overshadowed by the CB750, rather than merely being given dogma as to what was the first "true" superbike. The purpose of Wikipedia is not to settle disputes once and for all. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 19:04, 16 September 2011 (UTC)