Talk:Tuatha Dé Danann

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According to a book read on the air by Dr. Gene Scott, the TV evangalist, the TDD are actually the Tribe of Dan - one of the lost tribes of Isreal.

For anyone to believe that the Tuatha De Danaan are the lost tribes of Dan of Israel are incorrect. Dan is short for the Irish Goddess Danu(Mother Goddess) in other words Mother Earth as in Greece she is called Mother Gaea. You have to stop using imagery sources. We need physical written evidence first. Actually the Tuatha De Dannan were never a mythological race. It was said during the Fifth invasion, that the Tuath De Dannan came on ships that blocked out the sun, either by sky or by sea.

We have NO proof that they take their name from the "Mother Goddess". Like the Tribe of Dan explanation, it is merely a theory. It is worth noting that the Bible refers to the Tribe of Dan as seafarers and they were among the first to disappear. Acorn897 (talk) 16:54, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

I've given in to my frustration and spelt the name right. "Danaan" is not an Irish spelling.--Nicknack009 23:25, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

If you listen to TV evangalist's you'll go along way : aye right Culnacréann Ireland 19:53, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I've seen alot of reference to the Tuatha De Danann as gods, but I was wondering, has the comparison been made between them and the Elves? --Solacium Christiana 01:34, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Many times. Tolkien reportedly used some of the TDD myths for some of his material. Gabhala 13:57, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Sources for geanealogic tree?

ATTENTION. Which are the sources of this geanealogic tree? According to Lebar Gabala and Keating's genealogies, Bres was son of Elatha son of Delbaeth son of Dot son of Nét; than Bres was brother of Dagda and Ogma. Please, somebody control here: http://www.bifrost.it/CELTI/Appendici/GenealogiaT.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.75.91.214 (talk • contribs)

This article doesn't seem to list any sources at all. Other than that it's very good. Could someone add some sources in ? Otherwise one of those big "This Article does not cite any refences" info boxes is likely to appear. --WaterWolf 17:01, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Tuatha Dé Danann in fiction.

Isn't the Tuatha Dé Danann in fiction a bit whimsical and unnecessary ? The fiction that is listed there has only very tenuous links to the subject. Also, there has been so much Irish fiction written on the subject (The DeDanann Isles series by Michael Scott and The Giltspur series by Cormac MacRaois come instantly to mind), that if it was all listed, the list would be about five times the length of the original article.

Reply: I think based on analogies with other wikipedia entries that it's not out of place to have a list of uses in popular culture, especially when they link to other wikipedia entries. That said, I think the bit about the submarine could be shortened to just the first sentence, as it's entirely unconnected with the history or mythology and links to an extensive entry of its own for those interested. --Frippo 22:14, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

As the Tribe of Dan

I've removed the section 'Tuatha De Danann as the Tribe of Dan' - It was less than two lines long; and all it did was claim that British-Israelists believe that "the Tuatha De Danann are indeed the lost Tribe of Dan", and proceeded to link to a poorly-written 'debunking' article at a Bible essay website. Conjecture surrounding the Lost Tribes of Israel, though generally interesting enough, does not need a mention here. --Knyght27 05:42, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

why not? mention of the tribe of Dan in the context of British Israelism may well be justified here. I agree it doesn't deserve its own section though. dab (ᛏ) 09:12, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

The removed paragraph should be removed as it is a valid assumption. Just as valid as the "Mother Goddess" theory. Was it removed because Knyght27 disagrees with it? Hardly a dispassionate reason! Acorn897 (talk) 16:56, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

move

if we're going to mark long vowels in the title, it should be Túatha Dé Danann (or Tuatha De Danann, but not Tuatha Dé Danann), see tuath. dab (ᛏ) 07:47, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

The Dictionary of the Irish Language (Old and Middle Irish) lists túath (with a fada). The Collins Pocket Irish Dictionary (Modern Irish) gives tuath (without). It seems either is possible, depending on period. --Nicknack009 17:46, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Popular Culture

The Popular Culture section was removed as irrelevant. I'm curious as to how the decision on degree of relevancy was reached? Surely the section would be very relevant to someone who had read something on the TDD and wanted to find more in a similar vein? Gabhala 13:57, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that it wasn't a well-formatted discussion of the appearance of the Danann in popular culture, rather just a laundry-list of various appearances of the name. It added nothing to the discussion or understanding of the article subject. And it is not Wikipedia's purpose to let people find similar media which they might enjoy. I suggest Gnooks for that. --Eyrian 22:21, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Maybe the best option is to spin the section out into a daughter article. I'm not a fan of these sections, and they are unecyclopedic, but this usually works leaving the main article unaffected. Ceoil 22:32, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

That article would likely be entirely devoid of relevance or sources, and would probably be swiftly deleted (see WP:IPC). Further, no harm isn't a valid reason. I simply do not see the kind of merit necessary appearing. If somebody wants to write a well-sourced section/article about the portrayals of the Danann in popular media, that's fine. But a laundry-list of appearances without context or analysis (which must be attributed) doesn't do any good. --Eyrian 23:07, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

It would be the responsibility of the people adding the pop-cult factiods to justify that article's presence. If any element of any article is devoid of relevance or sources, it needs to go. My suggestion is based around the fact that this project inevitably attracts cruft; fine, spin it out, to grow and later die in a place where only the servers and speedy people need worry about it. Ceoil 23:50, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

OK. As I said, I was just curious. Gabhala 21:07, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

The list of appearances of this subject in literature was interesting and intriguing. An encyclopedia may list such references. It seems that a set of admins are on a crusade against popular culture and trivia. I will quote the list shortly but my question here is why delete the list instead of requesting that people list references to enhance the relevancy of this section which you deem not worthy of this article? It seems a bit arbitrary and a whole lot like a campaign to prove yourselves right rather than allowing for the organic, useful growth of an article...

This isn't useful growth. It's the accumulation of silly little references, without any kind of context or analysis. --Eyrian 00:07, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. The factoids are also unsourced.--Cúchullain ^t/c 08:11, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

This argument has been running for a very long time now. As I already said in the 'Tuatha Dé Danann in fiction' section above, I think this section is not needed in the article. 90% of the listed pop culture references simply name check the Tuatha Dé Danann and are completely irrelevant. It's the kind of fluff a section like that will attract. There are far more relevant items that could be listed but the list would end up being huge. I'm not opposed to a separate article on this but it shouldn't be included in this article. --WaterWolf 09:51, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Popular culture - which keeps getting deleted

• The Tuatha Dé Danann (spelled Tuatha Dé Danaan in the books) play a prominent role in Karen Marie Moning's novels. The first set, the Highlander series, are standalone romance novels that are best read together and in order and the Fever series which are suspense novels (so far, no romance) the first of which is "DarkFever".

• The exotic characters in Julian May's Saga of Pliocene Exile are based on Tuatha Dé Danann and Fir Bolg.

• The Tuatha Dé Danann, and the Fomorians (spelt Fomhoire) play vital roles in Juliet Marillier's "Sevenwaters Trilogy"

• The Tuatha Dé Danann appear in a chapter of Poul Anderson's book The Broken Sword, a fantasy novel placed in northern Europe during the Middle Ages. The hero Scafloc travels from Britain to Ireland and meets the People of Danu in a deep sidhe.

• In Eoin Colfer's book Artemis Fowl, it is said that Dé Danann created the Giant's Causeway with the force of their magic blast while fighting the demon Fomorian.

• In Keith Taylor's Bard series, the central character, Felimid Mac Fal, is descended from the Tuatha Dé Danann. Mac Fal has an ancestral sword, Kincaid, which bears an ancient curse: if it falls into the hands of anyone not descended from the Tuatha Dé Danann, that person will die before the next sunset.

• The Tuatha Dé Danann (spelled Tuatha de Dannon within the game) appear in the online game City of Heroes as enemies with the appearance of hulking, green creatures with antlers. They are sometimes led by 'Boss' monsters called "Bres". In the game, they reprise their role as enemies of the Fir Bolg, who are now pumpkin-like creatures. This is explained in-game as a side effect of the two groups having been transported to their new home (and constant warzone), the Croatoa sector.

• The Tuatha Dé Danann appear in Diane Duane's book A Wizard Abroad, in which the battle of Lugh and the Formori is resumed in modern times. Lugh uses his spear to kill Balor of the Evil Eye, king of the Formori. The spear is said to be the mythical Spear of Destiny.

• The Tuatha Dé Danann are featured heavily in Morgan Llywelyn 's book Bard: The Odyssey of the Irish

• Many of the Tuatha Dé Danann appear in Laurell K. Hamilton's Merry Gentry series of books, and mostly centers upon the Unseelie sidhe, who used to be gods, although they themselves were not always of the Unseelie court.

• The Tuatha Dé Danann are featured prominently in Alison Baird's novels The Hidden World and The Wolves of Woden.

• The Tuatha Dé Danann are referenced in the Outlanders novel series by Mark Ellis (aka James Axler) as having engaged in a long war with the Anunnaki for possession of the Earth. The last of the Danann, the mad god Maccan, has appeared twice in the series (Dragoneye and Mad God's Wrath), wielding the deadly Silver Hand of Nuadha. The Danann princess Fand has also appeared in Outlanders.

• The Tuatha Dé Danann (TDD-1) is the codename of one of MITHRIL's advanced submarines in the Full Metal Panic anime/manga series.

• The Tuatha Dé Danann are presented as a water-breathing species from Thierna Na Oge, one of the five lost cities of Atlantis in the 1986 Aquaman comic book limited series by Neal Pozner and Craig Hamilton.

• They are portrayed as gods in Mark Chadbourn's The Age of Misrule trilogy, in which the ancient gods return to present-day Britain.

• The Tuatha Dé Danann appear in the roleplaying game Shadowrun. In the context of the game, they are Irish elves who appeared after the magical awakening of 2011. They claimed Ireland as their homeland, renaming it Tír na nÓg. They consider human and other non-elven Irish to be their inferiors, whom they refer to as Firbolg. Non-Irish elves often view them as a model to emulate.

• In the roleplaying game Changeling: The Dreaming, the Tuatha Dé Dannan are mysterious godlike beings who are ancestors of the fae.

• The Tuatha Dé Danann inspired a Brazilian Celtic/Folk Metal band, Tuatha de Danann (band), whose lyrics are mainly about fantasy and celtic folklore.

• The Tuatha Dé Dannan also inspired a well-known traditional Irish band, De Dannan.

• The Fir Bolg are represented in the online game World of Warcraft as Furbolgs, bearlike, hulking, feral, tribal creatures with large bellies, usually wielding spears.

• The MMORPG Dark Ages (computer game) players are referred to as 'Tuatha de Danaan' a slight variation of 'Tuatha Dé Dannan'.

• Manau, a celtic/hip hop group from Britanny, has a popular song called La Tribu de Dana. Which is French for 'Tuatha de Danaan'. In the song, adapted from Alan Stivell's, Manau, tells the story of a celtic warrior.

• The Tuatha Dé Danann appear in Stephen R. Lawhead's epic Pendragon Cycle as the mythical survivors of the lost continent of Atlantis. Directly descended from a king of these Fair Folk, Charis (who later becomes the legendary "Lady of the Lake") marries the greatest of the Druids, a mysterious orphan named Taliesin. Their son, Merlin, carries on his father's legacy of the great Kingdom of Summer, culminating in Arthur's ascendence as king of all Britain, and beyond.

• In Grant Morrison's comic book metaseries Seven Soldiers, many elements of the Tuatha de Danann myth appear, especially issue #1 which contains their four cities, some of the four weapons, and a reference to the Silver Arm, Nuada's nickname.

• Michael Moorcock includes themes of Celtic mythology and the Tuatha Dé Danann in the Corum books of his Eternal Champion seriesc. In this mini series, non-human protagonist and aspect of the Eternal Champion, Prince Corum fights fomorians and, like Nuada, has a silver hand.

• The Tuatha Dé Danann are depicted in the comic Sláine by Pat Mills.

Pronunciation

Would some nice person like to add how Tuatha Dé Danann is pronounced? An IPA guide or a spoken .ogg file would be ideal. Peter1968 (talk) 12:33, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I've added an attempt at the IPA that's as right as I can make it for modern Irish. The Old Irish pronunciation is more or less the same, except the th would be pronounced like an English th, not an h. --Nicknack009 (talk) 19:02, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I've updated the Irish IPA following the standard used at the Irish phonology article and added Old Irish. Note that these are phonemic (//) rather than phonetic ([]) transcriptions. The transcription at Old Irish only marks palatal consonants, so I've followed that practice for OI. As far as the lenition goes, I don't pretend to have any detailed knowledge of OI, I'm just following this...

10.01. Nominal inflections which brought about lenition in the following words, notably adjectives and genitives, are the nominative singular feminine, the nominative plural masculine, the genitive singular masculine and neuter, the dative singular of all genders...

— R.P.M. & W.P. Lehmann, An Introduction to Old Irish 1975

☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 05:28, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Tuatha Dé Danann family tree

Can some one please insert Bres as Brigid's husband and Ruadan as their son. I have no idea how to figure out how to edit that stupid chart, but this correction needs to be made. If you need a source check out Gray, Elizabeth A. ed. & trans. Cath Maige Tuired: The Second Battle of Mag Tuired. Kildare: 1982. pp 42. Cheers.206.188.67.28 (talk) 15:44, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Tuatha Dé Danann and Greek Danaans

I have restored the fact that the TDD and the Greek Danaans are not related. I don't believe it needs a cite, as it should be blitheringly obvious to anyone that any similarity between a misspelling of an Irish word and an Anglicisation of a Greek word, which doesn't exist between the original Irish and Greek words, must be coincidental. The only references linking them are in popular "ancient mysteries" type books, which have no standards at all. Any reputable scholar writing on either subject would consider the fact there is no link too obvious to have to state. Popular books are full of gibberish about Celtic subjects, and it unreasonable to expect scholarly sources refuting them all. --Nicknack009 (talk) 23:46, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

"Are not known to be connected" is a perfect statement of fact. Are not connected is description of a universal negative, which cannot be proven, unless it be shown that some positive fact makes the conclusion impossible. If so, that positive fact should be stated. If we can say that Tuatha Dé Danann is known to be derived from X of Indo-European provenance while Danaos comes from Y of Indo-European provenance then we have knowledge of separate origins. Only then could we make the absolute claim that they are not related. Until then, they are not known to be relaetd, their relation is doubted, or scholars believe that claims of a relation are unsupported. If you want to say that, go ahead.

I haven't read those sources which you refer to as ancient mystery books. If they were to claim that the Latinate Dana-an work meaning people of Danaos like Rom-an means "people of Rome" then they would be perhaps be making a false identification between the -an endings. But the question remains that the origin of Dan- in the Tuatha Dé Danann is unknown, and hence is not known to be connected to Danaos. If the claims of nonserious scholars (with which I am not familiar and in which I am not interested) are such that they need to be shown to be opposed by serious scholars, then that can be mentioned with some explanation.

But "scholars see no connection" is accurate and avoids claims of omniscience.Kjaer (talk) 00:24, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Can someone explain to me the reason for including this point in the first place? It seems to be blindingly obvious that the two are not related, and it takes up room in an already extremely complex entry. Nilzy (talk) 12:59, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Agreed - now why is Olympian Pantheon in ==see also== ?? ClemMcGann (talk) 09:17, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Agreed that the connection between the Tuatha de Danaan and the "Greek" Danaans is of the most tenuous. See Mark Woodhuizen's book on the Sea Peoples, to whom the Denyen were a later addition. The Denyen were the "Greek" Danaans, as the Ekwesh/Ahiyyawa were the "Greek" Achaeans. 71.163.114.49 (talk) 16:01, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

The "secret" of "Tuatha (de) Danu"

Many scholars try to "find" the roots of Tuatha (de) Danu through Hebraic occult nonsense about "Dan tribe", which was simply Hyperborean "Scynthian" (Slavic and also Irish eventually) goddess Dana or Danu...

The correct transliteration of this Tzarist / Goddesses / Deva was among old Slavic people from DON river (important) called "DANA" or "DANITSA" (Danica) goddess. And transliteration of the Irish Tuatha is slavic Detsa(children); where "t" was transliterated through d and vice versa and TH was transliterated into soft "Ts", almost "c". So "Deca ("children") of Dana or Danitsa(Danu). The city called "Vienna" or "Wien" still today carries its name - "DUNAJ" (Dunay) among SloVenian people. The transliteration of "Wien" (Vienna) derived from the people of "WENDS" or "VENETI" (king Samo, king of Wends or Venns).

So the "secret" behind this name "Danu" or Dana or Danica means "light"; "day". People think that Danica represented a slavic goddess of "Venus", but it represented a constellation; not a "star" (venus) , but sisters (stars), daughters of Dazhbog(zodiac).

grammar problem?

" Hindu mythology has a goddess called Danu, who may be an Indo-European parallel."

"Who" is a relative pronoun which should refer to the nearest noun. That would be "Danu" the Hindu goddess. The Hindus are Indo-Aryans, not Indo-Europeans. If the Irish Danu is the parallel to the Hindu Danu, then instead of "who may be," use "to which the Irish Danu may be". 71.163.114.49 (talk) 15:58, 22 June 2013 (UTC)