Talk:French First Republic: Difference between revisions

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A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on September 22, 2011 and September 22, 2013.

Comments

removed this text: This marked the first occasion in many centuries where a major European state moved from monarchical to republican mode, and presaged a new era of republican government(s) in Europe.

and replaced it thus: This presaged a new era of republican government(s) in Europe.

the term "many centuries" is ambiguous first of all. second of all, the Dutch Republic was established in the early 17th century, less than two centuries before 1795, certainly not "many centuries." I don't know if there were any other European republics established between the establishment of the Dutch Republic and establishment of the first French republic, so i just removed the questionable line entirely.

--Henrybaker 22:09, 18 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

oppose scholars, editors & publishers prefer "French Third Republic" not "Third French Republic" [and likewise for the others], according to Google Scholar and Google Books search. Rjensen (talk) 03:56, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Various

The infobox has a title "Various" which is linked to an irrelevant article. The link is made by the template script, not the parameter to it. Is there a way to unlink it? phma 05:05, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

hmmm

there's no french version of this article... Paris By Night 02:32, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed Renaming

I think First French Republic sounds a little more proper than "French First Republic" and anyway, I believe it is a more precise translation of Première République française. In addition, it is a different naming convention than we use for First French Empire. That makes no sense. We should stick to one convention; it doesn't seem very encyclopedic to keep things as they are. Funnyhat 04:44, 4 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Let's keep the discussion unfragmented, since we will either make all these name changes or none of them. Could everyone please respond on Talk:French Fourth Republic? Phaunt 22:36, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Flag of the Kingdom

The French article about the flag of France (fr:Drapeau de la France) says explicitely that the de facto national flag of the Kingdom of France was a simple white flag - the lily banner was only used in presence of members of the royal family except the King: When he was present, the white flag had been hoised. To cut a long story short: Please do not insert the lily banner (Pavillon royale de France.svg) anymore, it's the wrong flag here. Louis88 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.169.30.46 (talk) 20:38, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Flag

I believe the red-white-blue tricolor was only used until about 1794, when it was switched to the current blue-white-red one.141.211.222.216 (talk) 21:42, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

They almost always used the Red Flag. Epaminondas of Thebes (talk) 13:23, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed Expansion

I have noticed that this article is a stub, and I would like to clean it up and add to it. I have some good published sources to draw on. If anyone has any suggestions for changes I could incorporate besides those listed above, keep me posted. Tkbd2009 (talk) 16:29, 12 February 2009(UTC)

Sounds good. Which sources will you use? ClioFR (talk) 16:43, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

suspension of all ordinary legality 10 October 1793

Would someone with authority on the subject please write something about the "suspension of all ordinary legality 10 October 1793" mentioned in the Constitution of France article? Thank you SaaHc2B (talk) 23:34, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

B-class challenged

I strongly disagree that this is B-class. It is a disguised history article, not very well sectioned nor very well referenced at that. The name implies this to be an article about state, for which the article is grossly incomplete (where is the information on leaders, organizations, politics...)? Not B class, C class at best if we are being generous, I'd say start class. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:54, 10 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Possible inclusion of the "History of France" template

Should one not include the template History of France? I think that would be very useful. --Hans Dunkelberg (talk) 15:15, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

It has been proposed in this section that multiple pages be renamed and moved.

A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly.

Links: current log • target log • direct move

– This article's topic is the first of France's republican government, not the French form of a general first republic. Article editor (talk) 03:40, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom -- 76.65.129.3 (talk) 05:21, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. It's standard to write of the "Third Republic" and add "French" to the start when necessary to clariy the country. There's no reason to move to a made-up order. Timrollpickering (talk) 11:43, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I think the proposed word order is more natural. Britannica uses "First Republic", "Second Republic", and so forth. So France is implied and "French" doesn't need to be in the title at all. Various countries have first and second republics, but when you hear about a third, fourth, or fifth republic, you can assume its France. Epaminondas of Thebes (talk) 12:59, 4 October 2013 (UTC) !vote by sockpuppet of community banned user struck. Favonian (talk) 19:03, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: – Sadly for la France, that isn't correct. Please see the disambiguation pages Third Republic, Fourth Republic, and Fifth Republic. SteveStrummer (talk) 21:30, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Many of the terms on those DABs are so rarely used that they are almost Wikipedia inventions. Try googling "Fifth Republic" -wikipedia. See also dictionary definitions here and here. Epaminondas of Thebes (talk) 01:16, 5 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose – The current name isn't ideal but this would be no improvement. Qualified terms like "First French Republic" or "Fourth Republic of South Korea" are only employed for introductory or comparative usage – assuming context, historians use unqualified terms like "First (Second, et al) Republic" much more frequently. It's important for Wikipedia to keep in harmony with the established conventions of historical writing. SteveStrummer (talk) 21:30, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I would support a proposal to change all article titles to the style of First Republic (country name). This is already in use for Fifth Republic (France), and seems to be the preferred form in several foreign language wikis. It has clarity, retains the common form, and offers order and applicability across the range of disambiguation. SteveStrummer (talk) 21:30, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

~~This is a better idea. Both "Fifth French Republic" and "French Fifth Republic" and rarely used terms. See this ngram. Epaminondas of Thebes (talk) 01:50, 5 October 2013 (UTC)~~[reply]

I could support First Republic (France), Second Republic (France), Third Republic (France), Fourth Republic (France), and Fifth Republic (France). --Article editor (talk) 05:19, 5 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That does sound better -- 76.65.129.3 (talk) 05:38, 5 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Would one of you like to take charge of making a new proposal? SteveStrummer (talk) 01:38, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think we'd have to. As long as we show that there is a consensus for an alternative title (and this thread shows that there is), we can ask an admin to close the discussion according to the alternative proposal after the initial seven days. --Article editor (talk) 18:45, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Since this will be closed soon, the admin who's closing this discussion should note that the decision reached is to move to First Republic (France), Second Republic (France), Third Republic (France), Fourth Republic (France), and Fifth Republic (France) instead. —Article editor (talk) 16:08, 10 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't agree with that proposal. It seems artificial, more so than the present constructions. Sure, what one has isn't perfect. However, in spoken language, I was always taught "Fifth French Republic", as in the fifth entity named "French Republic", and so on. Hence, I agree with original proposal. There is no need to introduce parenthetical disambiguation unless it is absolutely needed, and furthermore, what about other entities with multiple republics? Would we change them to this new form as well? RGloucester — ☎ 20:54, 11 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Strong support of proposed move as better titles in English. Natural disambiguation is generally preferred and works better here, I think. Red Slash 22:49, 16 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. While I have sympathy with both of the proposals mooted, neither is clearly superior to the status quo, the advantages of which are (a) avoiding parentheses and (b) the word order "Nth Republic" is the normal one. Srnec (talk) 22:59, 16 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
On second thought, I could support making the French republics the primary topics for Third Republic and Fourth Republic, probably First Republic and Fifth Republic, and maybe Second Republic. These should be individual move requests. Then we can use parenthetical disambiguation for those that don't get moved. The only really strong contenders for primacy with the French republics, as I see it, are the Second Spanish Republic and the Fifth Republic Movement. We could probably ignore the latter on grounds of recentism, but the Spanish republic is more notable than the brief Deuxième République. Srnec (talk) 23:08, 16 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - these are commonly known as "the Nth republic" and French is basically a disambiguator, and a preferable one to parentheses, as User:Srnec notes. — Amakuru (talk) 13:21, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The French republics are primary topic in almost every case, so the titles should be First Republic, Second Republic, Third Republic, etc. Spain's Second Republic is only case where it is even a close call. The Viking (talk) 11:07, 20 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 109: / Line 109: @@
 *:On second thought, I could support making the French republics the primary topics for [[Third Republic]] and [[Fourth Republic]], probably [[First Republic]] and [[Fifth Republic]], and maybe [[Second Republic]]. These should be individual move requests. Then we can use parenthetical disambiguation for those that don't get moved. The only really strong contenders for primacy with the French republics, as I see it, are the [[Second Spanish Republic]] and the [[Fifth Republic Movement]]. We could probably ignore the latter on grounds of [[WP:Recentism|recentism]], but the Spanish republic is more notable than the brief  ''Deuxième République''. [[User:Srnec|Srnec]] ([[User talk:Srnec|talk]]) 23:08, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
 *'''Oppose''' - these are commonly known as "the Nth republic" and French is basically a disambiguator, and a preferable one to parentheses, as [[User:Srnec]] notes. &nbsp;&mdash;&nbsp;[[User:Amakuru|Amakuru]] ([[User talk:Amakuru|talk]]) 13:21, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
+*The French republics are primary topic in almost every case, so the titles should be [[First Republic]], [[Second Republic]], [[Third Republic]], etc. Spain's Second Republic is only case where it is even a close call. [[User:The Viking at Stamford Bridge|The Viking]] ([[User talk:The Viking at Stamford Bridge|talk]]) 11:07, 20 October 2013 (UTC)