Talk:Militarization of police

AFD

Hoping the article will survive an AfD : )OnBeyondZebrax • TALK 01:30, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

US centric view

I tagged the article for US centric view, The edit was reverted on 11 January with the edit summary "It specifies that it is a US topic". No discussion was started here.

I am reverting the revert because the title of the page militarization of police does not indicate that it is an US topic. This is important, because there is evidence that the militarization of police is a global phenomenon. Hence, militarization of police in the US is only one facet of the topic.

So, the choices are simple:

• leaving the flag and expanding the article, which is doable.
• Removing the flag and changing the title to [militarization of police in the US]. --Wuerzele (talk) 04:18, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

The article scope is clear at this current moment which is that it is a US topic. Get some RS's that show police militarization worldwide and add content. Until then, there is no need for a globalize tag. - SantiLak (talk) 04:26, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

We could go either way. If this is a world-wide trend, we could have sections for each country effected. If this is only a U.S. phenomenon, we should change the title. Ghostofnemo (talk) 01:51, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Deletion of Chris Kyle material

Reliably sourced information about Chris Kyle bragging that he shot looters in New Orleans has been repeated deleted from the article with very weak reasons:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Militarization_of_police&diff=644112469&oldid=644065652
• https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Militarization_of_police&diff=644252519&oldid=644217760

Do other editors feel this material is not relevant, not reliably sourced, or not NPOV? The person deleting this claims it is "misinformation" and "disinformation" but provides no reliable sources to support his or her claim. I believe this is notable, relevant and reliably sourced and should remain in the article. Ghostofnemo (talk) 14:25, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Kyle never bragged about this at all...These "writers" that misrepresent the story of Kyle claiming HE shot people from the Superdome after Hurricane Katrina. Kyle did fabricate the story of snipers shooting persons from atop he Superdome but he never once stated that he did so himself. The originally story is from an op-ed written by another navy seal and is here at this link. The news media has bamboozled people into the lie that Kyle claimed he was there...he never made that claim. These "journalists" are apparently too slovenly to do their own research before writing a "news" piece. The fabrication of information to fit an agenda is one of the things that brings discredit to some media outlets and news magazines. Webb's piece predates these sources and it is from that that the lies were spun. Of course, chickenshit cowards can easily smear a person after they are dead and no longer capable of defending themselves.--MONGO 15:33, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

While I appreciate you sharing your personal insights on this matter, unless you can provide a reliable source to support your assertions, I'm afraid we have to go with the reliable sources we do have, and the three I've provided say he bragged he shot looters in New Orleans. Ghostofnemo (talk)

Since you have not provided any reliable sources to back your assertion that the cited reliable sources are misrepresenting the truth, I'm going to restore the deleted line. Ghostofnemo (talk) 04:45, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

I reverted you. Here's my edit summary: "Clearly hearsay. No reliable reporter heard Kyle say it, therefore it was not 'reported' that he said it. It was reported that some person of unknown reliability else claimed he said it." Evidently because Chris Kyle was murdered, all of the precautions contained in WP:BLP get thrown out the window by certain editors. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 00:44, 4 February 2015 (UTC) Also, I've edited the "Viewpoint" section. It used to have one statement from the ACLU and five or six by "Huffington Post" writers. Each and every one of them critical of recent changes in weapons and tactics by police. Not even one opposing viewpoint. Painfully obvious WP:NPOV problem. I cut down the number of "HuffPo" opinions to two, and now I'm looking for opposing viewpoints to add. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 03:18, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Why is Chris Kyle even mentioned in this article? He wasn't a police officer, and his inclusion in an article about police militarization just seems random. Also, Snopes claims that the information about the looters is bogus: [1].Spirit of Eagle (talk) 06:53, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Because private contractors (and apparently even volunteer veterans) were apparently allowed to play law enforcement roles, even though martial law had not even been declared. There was a "state of emergency" but not martial law. http://www.propublica.org/nola/story/nopd-order-to-shoot-looters-hurricane-katrina/ Ghostofnemo (talk) 07:03, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

The story has been altered by liars. Kyle never said he was there...he said others were. Snopes claims all of it is bogus. So the legend isn't fact.--MONGO 18:48, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

The three reliable sources cited say he said this. Can you supply reliable sources to back your claim that this is untrue? If so, you can note that this is disputed, but you shouldn't delete reliably sourced material. Ghostofnemo (talk) 08:26, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Ghost, the story orginated as I stated above several weeks ago. Kyle told the other navy SEAL that he believed other military personnel has gone to work for a security firm possibly Blackwater and that they (other former soldiers) had been shooting people from atop the Superdome. His story predates these other legends and even Snopes claims the whole thing is a concoction. It not true...and you and I have gone over this before on the Chris Kyle page.--MONGO 13:57, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Please stop edit warring over this, Ghost. You don't have consensus for the changes you've made. Your so-called reliable sources do not say, "Chris Kyle said XXX. I heard him say it." What they say is, "Some person of unknown reliability told me that he heard Chris Kyle say XXX." I'm not challenging the general reliability of those publications. I'm saying that in this specific context, those cannot be accepted as reliable sources to unequivocally say, "Chris Kyle said XXX" in Wikipedia's mainspace. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 03:59, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Neutrality

I've added a neutrality tag, due to some extensive coatracking, failure to include all relevant views under the viewpoint section and my concerns that this article is taking sides against certain police practices and procedures. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 06:36, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Just for those who don't know the term, coatrack is a Wikipedia term. See WP:COATRACK.OnBeyondZebrax • TALK 00:22, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

If you feel this article is not balanced, you could add reliably sourced material expressing other points of view, claiming this is not actually happening, or is an illusion, or is actually a positive trend, or that our Constitutional rights were judicially revoked by the courts so that this is all legal, that police safety always over-rides the human rights of citizens, etc. Ghostofnemo (talk) 02:05, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

I've added some statements from the Fraternal Order of Police. I'll try and edit the article some more, but I'm still worried about bias. My concern is that the article depicts police militarization as something that is unquestionably happening, unquestionably negative and procedes to back this up with a lot of cherry picked examples. I think it would be more in-line with our neutrality policy to describe it as a trend that many people believe is happening, describe the supporters of this belief and the evidence they give, and give due weight to those who believe that police militarization is not happening or that the programs deemed militaristic are actually positive. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 20:15, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Militarization of police as a trend reaching back decades in U.S.

I don't think the material that has been added about border clashes with Mexico at the turn of the century, organized crime in the 30's, and 60's terrorist attacks is relevant to this article. The issuing of machine guns to police officers was not widespread until recently, with the War on Drugs and the rise of SWAT teams. The FBI had these weapons, but they were not widely used by local police, and were certainly not used to control protesters or serve warrants until very recently indeed. I think this historical material is not relevant to the article and should be removed. Ghostofnemo (talk) 12:22, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

To the contrary, it is essential. Try reading the sources cited in what is now the second paragraph of the section. Municipal police departments and county sheriff's departments were creating SWAT units with fully automatic weapons, body armor and armored vehicles in the 1960s. Historian Charles Beard indicated that changes in American culture in the Great Depression (the 1930s) contributed to police militarization. Riot gear has been consistently deployed by urban police in response to violent protests, as well as protests that could become violent, such as those at the 1968 Democratic National Convention, and on our college campuses throughout the late '60s and early '70s. This is not a recent phenomenon, nor did it occur in a vacuum. Pretending the opposite contributed to the situation that required a neutrality tag. I'm hoping to get that tag removed. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 05:14, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

It appears that you are trying to justify this widespread phenomenon based on extremely isolated incidents of violence. The Mexican border incident is especially ridiculous. This is like treating seriously Hitler's claim that a police state was necessary because one man burned the Reichstag down. Ghostofnemo (talk) 07:48, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

And policing protests with riot gear and policing them with assault rifles are two very different things. The military does not use riot gear in battle. Ghostofnemo (talk) 07:51, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

The information is essential background information needed to give the full context on police militarization. I know that law enforcement have been using armored vehicles since the 1930s, and a lot of the "militarization" occurred throughout the 20th century, so it is incredibly misleading to claim that militarization is brand new to the 21st century. Also, I'd like to reiterate my desire for this article to actually describe what police militarization is and to provide analysis from reliable sources as well as giving due weight to those who do not believe it is occurring. As it stands, this article is just a cherry picked list of times the police got scary looking tools or did something the press disliked.Spirit of Eagle (talk) 01:52, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Also, the history section (minus the notable incidents section) is currently the most neutrally written section in the article since it gives all relevant information needed to understand the subject without deliberately favoring a certain viewpoint. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 01:55, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Can you provide a reliable source that mentions widespread use of armored vehicles by U.S. law enforcement prior to the 21st century? Ghostofnemo (talk) 06:59, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

I found the section you are complaining about to be a very neutrally worded section that enhanced the article significantly. It does not contradict the militarization of police....it shows in fact that it has happened and more importantly major reasons why it has happened.--MONGO 14:11, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

It may be neutrally worded, but it is suggesting a dubious cause - effect relationship, with the cause and effect happening decades apart. Armored vehicles and police equipped like combat troops on our streets are not a response to the gangsters of the 30's, or to Mexican incursions across our borders, or because of a handful of radicals in the 60's. If you can provide reliable sources that say that police militarization in the 21st century is a result of events which took place decades ago, but which did not manifest themselves until recently, after a long period of gestation, you may have an argument, but this appears to be an original theory that is being proposed by Wikipedia editors without any evidence to support it. Ghostofnemo (talk) 16:18, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

The Lenco BearCat and Cadillac Gage Ranger are both lines of armored police vehicles that have been produced since the 1980s and late 1970s, respectively (the bearcat link goes to a specific vehicle that started production in 1999, but the line it is a part of has existed since the listed time). In addition, here is a link proving that at least one police department was using armored vehicles in the early 1930s against organized crime: [2]. I’m really not seeing how early police usage is not relevant, especially when some of the sources about police militarization go into detail about the early usage. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 04:40, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Were these armored cars sold primarily to the military, or to police departments? Were they in widespread use by local police departments more than 20 years ago? Your one armored car from the 1930's is not relevant because this article is about the recent (last 20 to 25 years) trend of local police departments to acquire and deploy military weaponry. Arguing this is a response to Al Capone or Mexican border incursions or the Weather Underground is ridiculous. Ghostofnemo (talk) 13:26, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Wikpedia articles should provide background history on events and trends to help put them in context. Most of the sources on "police militarization" depict it as a long-running trend that started during the 20th century, so the background information is relevant to the article. If you disagree, do you have any reliable sources demonstrating that the "militarization" that occurred during the early 21st century is distinct and separate from the "militarization" that occurred during the early to mid 20th century? Spirit of Eagle (talk) 16:33, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

I think the earliest we can talk about the current trend developing is with the advent of SWAT teams in the mid-60's. This is from the article SWAT; "According to the Historical Dictionary of Law Enforcement, the term "SWAT" was used as an acronym for the "Special Weapons and Tactics" Squad established by the Philadelphia Police Department in 1964." Here is a direct link to that section https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SWAT#History Ghostofnemo (talk) 13:17, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

After further research, I haven't been able to actually find any information actually linking Poncha Villa's raid on Columbus with "police militarization". However, the war on crime from the 1930s has been linked to the "militarization", and was the supposedly militarized tactics and gear were first used. I propose that the information on Poncha Villa be removed, and that the information on the 1930s war on crime be edited to show the relevance and demonstrate its significance. This would eliminate any appearances of synthesis, and would result in a concise history section. Does this sound acceptable?Spirit of Eagle (talk) 06:16, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

I still think SWAT is the beginning. Most police departments had little more than shot guns before that. The FBI dealt with the mobsters. Ghostofnemo (talk) 08:29, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

I regret that I do not have the time to devote to this article that it deserves. Ghost, consensus is clearly against you (3 to 1). I've done a quick Google search to confirm use of armored cars by municipal police departments in Kansas City (a small city) and Kenosha, Wisconsin (a small town) in the 1920s and 1930s, and added this information to the article. I also found a blog entry showing the use of an armored Cadillac sedan by Dayton, Ohio police, complete with photo. If these three municipalities used armored cars, it is reasonable to infer that many more did as well. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 17:53, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Exactly. The idea that police have become suddenly more military-like is based on a lack of past knowledge. Police are more technologically capable overall and have more military grade hardware like armoured types vehicles but even larger departments usually only have token items of such equipment.--MONGO 18:52, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi there MONGO -- I think Spirit of Eagle offered a reasonable compromise: remove the sentence about the Pancho Villa raid and keep the rest. What do you think? Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 19:06, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

If nothing links them together then it does not belong in this article.--MONGO 22:04, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

There are several articles focusing on police developments during the 1930's war on crime in the context of police militarization. We do not need to devote an entire section to the 1930s. However, we should definitely note that the first armored police vehicles and "militarized" police tactics emerged during this time period as a response to well armed and organized criminal groups. Spirit of Eagle (talk) 06:18, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Looks like we have consensus for removal of the sentence about the Pancho Villa raid. I'm doing it. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 02:52, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

OK a couple of issues. First, just because a few police departments had armored cars in the 20s and 30s does not mean it was a widespread, accepted police practice. Clearly this has not become common until the last 20 years or so, so the info about the armored cars should be removed. It's like arguing that because a few airplanes existed at the turn of the century that air travel was widespread. Next, what is this all about? "with organized, violent left-wing protesters at such events as the 1968 Democratic National Convention in Chicago and the 1999 WTO Conference in Seattle,[16] with urban rioting such as the 1965 Watts riots in Los Angeles, with arsonists such as Earth Liberation Front (ELF),[17][18]" You're arguing that we have SWAT teams serving arrest warrants and demonstrations being policed with snipers and machine guns because some protesters got out of control and threw some bottles and smashed some windows, or because of fires started during riots and arson incidents? Unless you can find a reliable source that says cops needed machine guns to deal with rioting college students, or that armored cars protect people against arson, etc. this stuff needs to go. The cited sources say arson and riots occurred, but don't connect this with the increase in police firepower, armor, aggressiveness, etc. Ghostofnemo (talk) 06:15, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Spirit of Eagle, MONGO and I have all agreed that the material belongs in the article. This is consensus. We've removed the most objectionable sentence regarding the Pancho Villa raid. If you think the sources don't link these events with police militarization, you haven't read the sources. In particular I'm thinking of the work of historian Charles Beard, as described by Richard Kohn in the Journal of Military History. This is a quarterly, peer-reviewed academic journal. Also you may be interested in a book called "Terrorism and Homeland Security" by Jonathan White, available via Amazon. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 02:56, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Ghostofnemo says police are more aggressive...that's hilarious. Allnthjs baloney about armored vehicles...where? I live in the Omaha area and I have never seen one, and Omaha is one of the most dangerous cities in the USA for African-American males. Maybe they have them stored in a secret warehouse right next to their tanks and helicopter gunships.--MONGO 03:12, 14 March 2015 (UTC)