Talk:Rosa Raisa

Nationality

@Oliszydlowski and Wikiuserthea: and users familiar with related topics @Nihil novi, Poeticbent, and Volunteer Marek: As this article has been the subject of an edit war on nationality, let's discuss this here rather than in edit summaries, admin and talk pages (User_talk:Oliszydlowski#Your_.28repeated.29_error_about_Rosa_Raisa). My thoughts: 1) it is an undisputed fact she was born in the Białystok, then Russian Empire, a region also known as Russian partition (of Poland). 2) it is an undisputed fact she was of Jewish ethnicity. The question, then, is whether she was a Polish Jew or a Russian Jew, as the edit warring has been concerned with ([1]). Google Book search produces the following results for her name plus 1) "Russian Jew": 4 out of which 2 seem clearly relevant [2], 2) "Russian Jewish": 9 but 0 seem relevant/have preview: [3], 3) "Polish Jew": 10 but 0 seem relevant/have preview: [4] and 4) "Polish Jewish": 6, out if which 1 seems clearly relevant: [5]. So, tough, no consensus in the few sources that we have easily accessible. Looking at other sources, it seems that they describe her as Polish (Jewish) or Russian (Jewish). For example, there are 63 hits for her name plus "Polish soprano" ([6]), and 56 for "Russian soprano" ([7]). Unless there are better sources, I'd suggest labeling her as Polish-Russian Jew. Categories should be used for Polish, Russian and Jewish singers, and the lead should read Polish-Russian-Jewish. Remember: it we are not the judges of nationality, we report what the sources say. If they are confused, then we report that confusion. Finally, some articles sport a dedicated nationality section where justifications and analysis of nationality claims are presented (but that requires sources!). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:27, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

@EdJohnston and Piotrus: I have just now received an e-mail from Charles Mintzer, asking me to post this on his behalf. “I am Charles Mintzer, the author (2001) of the biography of “Rosa Raisa, A Biography of a Diva with Selections From Her Memoirs.” published by Northeastern University Press. In an interview on the Metropolitan Opera Turandot broadcast (1962) she states she was “born in Bialystok, Poland in the area controlled by Russia.” Her first language was Yiddish (at home) and her second language was Russian (at school). In my collection I have several examples of her writing in Russian (Cyrillic), Italian, Spanish, English, but never Polish. I have over a hundred of her concert programs over the years, she always programmed songs and arias by Rachmaninoff, Tchaikovsky, Gretchaninoff, and other Russian composers. In her limited recorded output there are three Russian songs, two Yiddish, but no Polish songs. I am sure she had some affection for her hometown Bialystok, Poland, but never, as they say, “played the Polish card.” In her unpublished autobiography, which her family gave me, she talks about her father’s tea samovar, from his Russian heritage.

As the author of the Wikipedia article, I would like the first paragraph to read: Rosa Raisa, Russian-Jewish dramatic soprano, born in Bialystok, Poland and trained in Italy who became a naturalized American. She possessed a voice of remarkable power and was the creator of Turandot, Puccini’s last opera." Wikiuserthea (talk) 12:09, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

@EdJohnston and Piotrus:, let me explain my own view why I completely agree with Charles Mintzer's suggestion. Oliszydlowski's constant reversals about her nationality were brought to my attention two days ago. I have no association with Russia or Poland, but I do have a doctorate degree in the humanities, so I perfectly understand the historical controversy related to the partitioned Poland. All we are trying to do is to do justice to this soprano and her case was unique. She left Bialystok in 1907 at the age of 14, never to return to that area again. I believe we should honor her own words, and here are the excerpts from her interviews highlighting the sentences where she identifies her own ethnicity:

- The Jewish Forum (January 1922)-- Interviewer: "The Jewish people are very proud of you Mme. Raisa." Rosa Raisa: "I am happy and proud to belong to them."

- Harriette Brower, "Vocal Mastery: Talks with Master Singers and Teachers" (Frederick A. Stokes Co.: New York 1920, pg. 94)-- Interviewer: "You of course speak several languages?" Rosa Raisa: ""Yes, I speak eight," she answered modestly. "Russian, of course, for I am Russian"

Based on his research of several decades, Charles Mintzer in his thoroughly documented biography (published by the academic press) concluded as follows: "Considering that she eventually became a naturalized U.S. citizen, probably the best definition of her ethnicity and unique persona is as an Italian-trained Russian Jew who ultimately lived the American dream of success as an internationally acclaimed opera singer." Charles Mintzer, "Rosa Raisa: A Biography of a Diva with Selections from Her Memoirs" (Northeastern University Press: Boston 2001, pg. 5-6)."

I have no idea what Oliszydlowski's motivation is to constantly revert her identity on the Wikipedia page, but he clearly doesn't know much about this soprano. Wikiuserthea (talk) 11:33, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

@EdJohnston and Piotrus: Also do note that saying "Polish-Russian Jewish," as Piotrus initially suggested as a "compromise," conflates the place of her birth with her ethnicity. She clearly felt (in her own words as I quote above) to be a Russian Jew, never referred to herself as Polish, and all other evidence that Mr. Mintzer provides point to her ethnicity as "Russian-Jewish" and she did not associate herself with being "Polish". In biographical entries, the adjective "Polish" or "Russian" refers either to someone's place of birth or his/her ethnicity, and for this reason you got so many hits for her in both senses. To disentangle her own sense of ethnicity from her place of birth, the only justice to this lady who is not alive to defend herself from Oliszydlowski's constant meddling with her name and nationality, would be as Mintzer also proposed:

"Russian-Jewish dramatic soprano, born in Bialystok, Poland and trained in Italy who became a naturalized American".

Please honor this soprano's own words about her sense of ethnicity and let her rest in peace.Wikiuserthea (talk) 15:09, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

@Wikiuserthea: You present some interesting arguments here. I find them relatively compelling, particularly the quote from Charles Mintzer; Rosa Raisa (January 2001). Rosa Raisa: A Biography of a Diva with Selections from Her Memoirs. Northeastern University Press. p. 5. ISBN 978-1-55553-504-9. which I successfully verified (with the disclaimer that as the book is not on Google Book preview, I was able to read but a snippet, so I cannot check the full context). Unfortunately, per Wikipedia:Verifiability policy we cannot accept emails as reliable sources (through of course they can be discussed here). I find the proposed sentence ("Russian-Jewish dramatic soprano, born in Bialystok, Poland and trained in Italy who became a naturalized American") elegant, but we do have to acknowledge that there are reliable sources which do describe her as Polish-Jewish; we cannot just ignore their existence. That view has to be mentioned in the article, either in lead or in the form of a note. I would suggest both: a sentence that reads "Polish-Russian or Russian-Jewish (sources vary[a]) dramatic soprano, born in Bialystok, Poland and trained in Italy who became a naturalized American". with the [a] leading to a note, in which we would note that there is no consensus among sources (cite a few), and then note that Mintzer in his biography opts for the Russian-Jewish one. If we could publish his email publicly, ex. on his webpage/blog, we could even cite it fully then. If you find it a bit cumbersome, please keep in mind that Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth is our motto here. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:42, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

@Piotrus: I provided the quotes from Rosa Raisa where she describes herself as "Russian" and "Jewish". You should respect her own wishes. I did notice that you and your compatriot Oliszydlowski specialize in this kind of bullying and already had exactly this same scenario twice with other Wiki contributors regarding people born in Bialystok at the time when it was Russia (not Poland). You say "reliable sources" -- her interviews are the MOST reliable sources. The reliable sources you mention are only *some* of the general reference books, while others describe her as "Russian-Jewish." In that case, the ONLY reliable source should be the one that presents HER OWN view about her ethnicity. I gave the full QUOTES from her PUBLIC INTERVIEWS. This is FULLY VERIFIABLE as these both sources are available through Google search. DON'T PRETEND like you don't know how to do it. I also provided the full quote from the authoritative biography about her life and should you doubt it ("check the full context"), get the book from the library or buy it and read it! Otherwise, you have NO CREDENTIALS to meddle with her identity. Charles Mintzer is an old gentleman who is not techno-savvy to learn the Wiki markup language and asked me for the favor to post his message. I would respectfully ask you to STOP ignoring quoted Rosa Raisa's words, to stop describing her ethnicity AGAINST how she felt (we call it ETHNIC CHAUVINISM) and BULLYING other Wiki contributors who know more about her life than you would ever do. STOP PROTECTING the Polish ULTRANATIONALISM of your compatriot Oliszydlowski who claims on his user page that Lithuania should be a part of Poland. You already did it in the past (there is the record that we easily discovered today looking at archives)). ENOUGH!!! Wikiuserthea (talk) 03:14, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

@EdJohnston: For the record: There is the public record that I quote in which Rosa Raisa expressed in her own words that she considered herself "Jewish." and "Russian." I will again provide these quotes from her public interviews. These are VERIFIABLE SOURCES, easily found on the internet or in print in the libraries:

- The Jewish Forum, vol. 5 (January 1922)-- Interviewer: "The Jewish people are very proud of you Mme. Raisa." Rosa Raisa: "I am happy and proud to belong to them." - Harriette Brower, "Vocal Mastery: Talks with Master Singers and Teachers" (Frederick A. Stokes Co.: New York 1920, pg. 94)-- Interviewer: "You of course speak several languages?" Rosa Raisa: ""Yes, I speak eight," she answered modestly. "Russian, of course, for I am Russian"

Mr. Mintzer, who is an older gentleman to learn the Wiki markup language at this stage of his life, asked me to post his message. I also gave you the extensive quote from his book about her identity. His book is also fully verifiable and can be easily found either through purchase or library loan. His request is to describe her identity as "Russian-Jewish" (and NOT "Polish-Jewish") because it respects Raisa's sense of her own identity, his research of several decades about her life, and the documented evidence presented in his book. You may find above the full sentence he requested to be retained in the Wikipedia article that he created about Rosa Raisa. Thank you.Wikiuserthea (talk) 03:43, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

@Wikiuserthea: I sincerely apologize if I have caused a nationality dispute, but I simply asked for a reference as you have not provided a page for the book that you claim to be a reliable source. At first I believed that she was Polish-Jewish, but reverted your edit because I was motivated by the fact that you haven't added a bibliography section. Indeed Białystok at that time was a multinational/multicultural city with Yiddish, Polish, Russian and Lithuanian cultures and this causes many disputes and arguments among the Wikipedia community. Since there are quotes, pages and sources (provided by User:Piotrus in the top paragraph) both support the argument that she was either Polish-Jewish or Russian-Jewish, I propose to change the first sentence of the article to: was an Ashkenazi Jewish dramatic operatic soprano. The Ashkenazi established communities throughout Central and Eastern Europe (Germany, Russia, Poland, Austria etc.), which had been their primary region of concentration and residence until recent times, evolving their own distinctive characteristics and diasporic identities.() There is no doubt that Rosa Raisa belonged to this kind of group of Jewish communities. Since it is difficult to solve this dispute and solve the nationality issue, let us focus on her "Jewishness". User:Oliszydlowski (TALK) 13:54, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

@Piotrus and Oliszydlowski: I still don't understand why you are insisting on eliminating "Russian" from her identity (unless "Polish" is also mentioned). She thought of herself as BOTH "Russian" and "Jewish." Please see the quotes from he interviews again. As I cite above, the quote from Mintzer's book is on page 5. I know well who Ashkenazis are from my own personal experience, but all we (Mr. Mintzer and I) are doing here is respecting Raisa's own sense of her identity as she herself expressed it. She thought of herself as a "Russian Jew" and said it publicly as quoted. I think everyone should respect it and especially on the public page related to her (which Mintzer created a few years back or so).Wikiuserthea (talk) 04:18, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

@Piotrus and Oliszydlowski: Let me alert you that your behavior is in flagrant violation of the international law and the very basic Universal Declaration of Human Rights: "1. Everyone has the right to a nationality. 2. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality." Rosa Raisa expressed her nationality as "Jewish" and "Russian" in her public interviews as quoted and fully documented here with the VERIFIABLE SOURCES. I did it even twice on this talk page and Piotrus still decides to IGNORE it and every time comes up with something else without mentioning her interviews. Mr. Mintzer in his message here and his book also provided the plenty of evidence why she expressed her nationality as "Russian-Jewish." I fully quoted his book (and Piotrus do not pretend that I did not do it; see the above on this talk page). Do NOTE that, according to the International Law, you have NO RIGHT to impose on anyone their (Polish or other) nationality against their will. We will be watching your behavior. I am reporting this to @EdJohnston: and will do it to everyone else if needed unless you stop BULLYING on Wikipedia. One more time: ENOUGH!!!Wikiuserthea (talk) 09:19, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

@Piotrus and Wikiuserthea: I have, frankly, lost interest in discussing this with you until such a point you aplogise to me and Oliszydlowski for your accusation of bullying. Regarding your quotation from Brower (1920), it is certainly very helpful. At the same time I found one ref ([8]) in which it is stated that she called herself "a polish singer" (a claim I cannot verify with any other source, however). I stand by my assessment that we should describe her nationality and Polish-Russian Jewish, with either a footnote or a dedicated section in which we discuss (with quotations) opinions of Mintzer and others. I agree that Mintzer source is the best, and I am leaning towards the agreement that Russian is better than Polish. We cannot, I repeat, ignore the fact that numerous sources (clearly not a minority) describe her as Polish. Another solution would be to describe her as Russian Jewish, with a footnote that would state that a number of sources describe her as Polish; but I am not happy with this: a quantitative analysis does not suggest that "Polish Jewish" view is in a minority that would warrant its exclusion from the lead. PS. On an unrelated note, when this article is editable again, we should link Białystok pogrom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:43, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

@Piotrus: Piotrus, my apologies for using the term "bullying" but you need to understand that constant ignoring of Raisa's own words really got to me. I feel like I stand for her rights because she cannot speak for herself. I would respectfully ask that we include the first paragraph as Mr. Mintzer requested that does show her as a "Russian-Jewish" who was born in Bialystok, Poland, etc. (see above), because it respects her own public expressions of her nationality. This then to be footnoted with the statement that general sources refer to her as both "Polish-Jewish" and "Russian-Jewish." As for the Bialystok Progrom - absolutely! In fact, as Mr. Mintzer shows in his book, she even survived as a young girl this horrific progrom and described it in her unpublished autobiography that her family entrusted him. I would encourage you and everyone else, if interested, to read this book because it shows an incredible strength and cosmopolitanism of this lady. I personally admire her strength that, despite all the horrors of the progrom, she still felt strong ties to the two cultures in which she grew up (Jewish and Russian). Please let's honor it. I will get in touch with Mr. Mintzer to ask him how he would like to include her survival of the Bialystok progrom: either in the footnote or in the main text. I personally would prefer in the main text, but I hope you agree with me that he is the ultimate authority on her (he spent 40 years doing research on her life and career). Please let me know before I proceed to contact him about it.Wikiuserthea (talk) 03:55, 27 April 2015 (UTC)