Talk:Volkswagen emissions scandal

Current title

The current title, "Volkswagen common-rail TDI diesel engine emissions controversy", looks too long, even when using AutoComplete. What about "test-rigging" or "emissions test" to replace bolded phrase? --George Ho (talk) 12:07, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

• I agree about the length. "Emissions test-rigging" works for me. "Emissions test" is too bland and deviates from the subject too much. I'd like to hear from the article creator, on his thoughts. Jusdafax 12:13, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

• Agree it's way too long, and even incorrect. The article makes no mention that this incident is a "controversy." The article and the main sources use the term "violation." The other descriptive words, "common-rail TDI diesel engine", are all unnecessary. I think a clear title like "Volkswagen emissions violation" is good enough. I'd avoid words like "scandal" or "deception" in the title since this isn't a tabloid article. --Light show (talk) 16:27, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

• Suggest Volkswagen diesel emissions violation, as the "diesel" part is a significant qualifier. Normally, I'd say these are allegations, but the strong admissions by company officers suggest no controversy. 24.151.10.165 (talk) 17:22, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

• That's getting closer. Agree that diesel should be in the title. Jusdafax 18:52, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

But why bother, since it implies there may have been regular gasoline violations. As some similar violations have been reported in the past, which are general for car emissions, I'd keep the qualifier out. So far, only diesel has been investigated, but similar problems might later show up for regular gas cars. --Light show (talk) 19:04, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

• As the article creator, I lean in the other direction (but then, I am understandably biased). I have removed the word "diesel" from the title, because a TDI (as trademarked by and associated with Volkswagen AG) is by definition a diesel engine, and so could be considered redundant. Volkswagen has manufactured a large number of engines, both gasoline and diesel (and, recently, hybrid as well), but only certain diesel engines manufactured since the late 1990s as marketed with the "TDI" trademark. Out of those, the TDIs have used three injection system technologies: standard rotary multi-output injection pump, camshaft-driven pumpe-düse unit injection, and now common-rail injection. Only the common-rail TDIs from VW are (currently) being submitted to the scrutiny of the EPA and CARB. As for whether the affair is a controversy (or not), Volkswagen AG is facing at least one class-action lawsuit, congressional hearings, additional scrutiny from regulators in its home country of Germany and elsewhere in Europe, and possibly the largest fine for Clean-Air Act violations in history. VW also lost 20% of its market cap in a matter of minutes/hours (on the first standard day of trading after the Notice of Violation became public) and has stopped sales of said TDI vehicles. The repercussions of VW's actions to themselves and to the wider automotive industry as a whole (i.e., "What does the future of diesel-powered automobiles look like in the US and elsewhere?") are currently being heavily discussed by a multitude of media outlets, and users of web forums dedicated to TDI and other diesel products are talking about the issue non-stop. If that does not make a controversy, I don't know what does... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adams kevin (talk • contribs) 19:59, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

The only reason you need all these qualifiers is if you have a half dozen other VW emissions scandal articles and you need to specify that this article is about the TDI engines -- and then if you've got more than one VW TDI emissions scandal so you need to be clear that this is the one with common rail engines. But that's not the case. All the article title needs is WW, emissions, scandal and maybe diesel. If VW has more emissions scandals later, we can rethink the titles to distinguish them, but for now you don't need it.

This principle is explained in WP:PRECISION, the article title policy. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 20:09, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Another relevant policy is WP:COMMONNAME given that no one else is referring to this a "common-rail TDI" event. A number of organizations appear to be going with Volkswagen emissions scandal (e.g. [1] and [2]). I think that adding the "diesel" modifier is more precise without getting overly detailed, but an argument for leaving it out entirely can be made. 24.151.10.165 (talk) 20:23, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Only the discussions about the "future of diesel-powered automobiles," are controversial. And civil cases haven't been filed, but the article isn't about any future class-action cases. Both those issues are almost irrelevant to the article now, which is about a "scandal" or "violation."

Another question related to the title is how many other emission violations Volkswagen has been involved in? I don't recall any others. So the qualifiers "common-rail TDI engine" would only serve to confuse readers, of which only about 1 in a million might know what that was. As for the use of the word "scandal," it's well sourced and newsworthy, however the word is not a synonym for "violation." You can have one without the other. I think "violation" is both more general and neutral. But the source or cause of the the violation, i.e. scandal, cheating, rigging, etc., can be covered in the article. Also note that the intentional cause of the violation is not what they would be fined for. It's the violation that's the key civil issue. It's not a criminal case. So I still lean to Volkswagen emissions violation for a title. The lead sentence can explain that it was caused by the scandal, or whatever. --Light show (talk) 20:26, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

The NY Times 5 minutes ago stated, "The violations described by the EPA could, in theory, total about $18 billion." --Light show (talk) 20:36, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Two chronologies needed

There are two timelines that need to be presented here, in two different sections. One is the order of actual events, which should be the most important one[3] (approximately -- please verify):

1. First a European NGO the International Council on Clean Transportation wanted to show the benefits of US diesel emissions rules to Europeans
2. They hired CAFEE at U of WVa. to test cars, expecting to show how much cleaner US diesels were
3. Everyone was surprised at the discrepancies between VW's real world and test performance
4. The EPA heard about the results in a public presentation and the NGO published the results online
5. The EPA began follow up tests to prove the deception
6. And prodded VW for almost a year to explain, receiving BS denials of "technical" reasons for the inconsistency
7. Early September 2015 EPA threatens to not certify VWs 2016 diesels
8. VW finally admits wrongdoing
9. Friday September 18 the EPA announces the recall order
10. Sunday September 20, public apology
11. Monday, September 21 stock price plummets, the above timeline becomes public

The second timeline is the one in the current article, what we knew and when we knew it. Right now the article gives this timeline more or less in reverse order, which is the order in which the facts became public. This is important to include in teh article because it describes how the scandal unfolded and how VW responded. It is relevant to the stock price moves on Monday and Tuesday the 21st and 22nd. Hence the need for two timelines: what happened when, and the other one: when we learned what happened and how VW responded based on how much they thought the EPA and the public knew. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 19:48, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 22 September 2015

Volkswagen common-rail TDI engine emissions scandal → Volkswagen emissions scandal – Per WP:COMMONNAME, WP:PRECISION. Examples of common usgage: The Independent, Wall Street Journal, Detroit Free Press and NASDAQ See above for threaded discussion considering variations. 24.151.10.165 (talk) 20:41, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. 24.151.10.165 (talk) 20:42, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

previous voluntary recall

Something should be added about the previous voluntary recall that did not address the NOx issue. I found this, but though WP as the source, it's from the blog section. Maybe someone else can find a better source:

...

California Air Resources Board “has determined that the previous recall did not address the high on-road NOx emissions, and also resulted in the vehicle failing certification standards,” it told the company this month.

...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2015/09/22/anatomy-of-volkswagons-deception-the-recall-that-never-fixed-any-cars/