Talk:Genetically modified crops

Business impact section is POV

I tagged the section after coming to this page reading this for the first time today. The section only describes (impact on) the side of the GMO industry, not the other side, farmers that produce crops with traditional, non-GMO seeds.

Until and unless that is represented in this section I dont think the section is a neutral portrait of the issue.--Wuerzele (talk) 22:26, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

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Scientific "consensus"

With this edit I changed the "scientific consensus" language to what was agreed on in Genetically Modified Food in this section, where there was an extensive RfC about it and negotiation that followed the RfC to the language that is there now, which was changed with this edit and has been stable since then (despite editors who have insisted the language is still too strong). That RfC was noticed in this article talk page here. When the RfC closed I noticed the subsequent discussion Genetically Modified Food here specifically suggesting the discussion take place at Genetically Modified Food, and no one objected. I am shocked to see Aircorn has reverted my edit here and says, "This will probably need a rfc at some point". Seriously? You are you claiming that despite the notice of the RfC and subsequent notice about post-RfC discussion of that language were insufficient to justify using the result of those discussions for the language here? And that, therefore, a separate RfC must be held for each and every article that has this language? I am in disbelief. --David Tornheim (talk) 07:35, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

You made no mention of a RFC or any consensus in your edit summary Controversy: changed from scientific consensus to scientific agreement per language in GMO foods.. The last RFC I can find on the subject is here and it closed as no consensus. If a RFC closes as no consensus then the status quo stays and unless a strong consensus can be reached on the talk page it usually takes another RFC to change it. AIRcorn (talk) 08:42, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

This is the latest discussion on consensus. AIRcorn (talk) 08:52, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

I looked at the edits, and Aircorn did not revert the entire edit, so all we seem to be arguing about here is whether the wording should be "scientific agreement" or "scientific consensus". I think that the language changes that Aircorn left intact are an improvement. As for getting into high dudgeon over agreement/consensus, I agree with Aircorn. There is a more precise meaning to the phrase "scientific consensus", so let's leave it that way, and find something more useful to discuss. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:07, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

There is no consensus per the cited sources, and the divide (i.e. ban of GMO crops worldwide) certainly underlines that. See also WP:OR and WP:SYN. prokaryotes (talk) 22:16, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

So are you claiming that there is an agreement but not a consensus? --Tryptofish (talk) 22:18, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

I can settle with an agreement, but it would be more precise to state that on a case per case basis, as the WHO states in their official announcement on GMO safety. prokaryotes (talk) 22:20, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

I'm puzzled why "scientific agreement" would be acceptable, but "scientific consensus" would not be. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:28, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Because a consensus is a clear majority opinion, visible in the mainstream scientific literature, and through official announcements - which clearly refers to a consensus. There are probalby GMOs which can be considered relatively safe, and there might even exists such a consensus, but not general speaking - including every single GMO.prokaryotes (talk) 22:49, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

I have no objection to qualifying it to indicate the case-by-case aspect. To my knowledge, however, there has yet to be a "case" where a GM food in the food chain has been found to be unsafe, so it is "general" with respect to existing crops. And you seem to be agreeing that there is a consensus with respect to that. I don't think that anyone here is claiming that there is a scientific consensus that it would be impossible to create some GM plant that would be unsafe. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:01, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Please provide a RS that makes the claim for agreement or consensus. AlbinoFerret 03:02, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Please see the numerous earlier discussions, and please do not wiki-lawyer that it's SYNTH unless a meta source uses the word "consensus". In any case, the solution is not changing "consensus" to "agreement", because the latter is just a WP:WEASEL-word. But perhaps more importantly, please see what I'm about to say below. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:39, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

The "just look for it" idea is just problematic. I have looked in the past, I was involved in the RFC. To date none of the reliable sources I have looked at make the claim and the claim appears to be WP:SYNTHESIS. The closest is the AAAS source, but it misstates the WHO and that is a red flag for reliability. AlbinoFerret 21:21, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I really should have done that to begin with, sorry. It's just that it gets tiring to feel like one is having to say the same thing over and over again. And I do emphasize that changing the word to "agreement" should not be a solution to satisfy anyone. For me, my previous statement about it, [1], covers the situation as I see it. And if you consider the AAAS to be an unreliable source, then we are in a situation where it will be very difficult to get to consensus. The American Association for the Advancement of Science is about as close as I can imagine to being what Wikipedia considers to be a reliable source. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:22, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Tryptofish: You say, " The American Association for the Advancement of Science is about as close as I can imagine to being what Wikipedia considers to be a reliable source." I thought for health concerns, we are supposed to rely on secondary sources, such as review articles per WP:MEDRS, right? Why are we not using these two sources for statements about health and GMOs?

--David Tornheim (talk) 00:53, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

I know that I've discussed Krimsky with you at another page, and he is a reliable source as a critic of mainstream science, but not a reliable source as a spokesperson for mainstream science. I remember seeing prior discussion of Domingo, but I don't remember the details. I'm wondering, just off the top of my head now, whether there might be an approach in which we say something like (very approximately), "according to such major scientific organizations as AAAS and... there is a scientific consensus that...", followed by "some scientists, such as Domingo and... have however questioned whether there is such a consensus". --Tryptofish (talk) 01:09, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Domingo doesn't really question the consensus, most of what I read he just asks for more testing. Anyway this approach runs into major WP:weight issues. If we want to present different opinions we will really need a Scientific opinions on the safety of genetically modified food article. BTW the AAAS source is a secondary source. AIRcorn (talk) 07:39, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Suggestion

I've been thinking hard about ways we can perhaps get to consensus. I see that editors have added the language "but should be tested on a case-by-case basis." I fully support that additional language, because after all, that is indeed what the sources tell us.

I have another thought, and this is what I want to suggest. The scientific consensus in the sources isn't really that it is impossible that any GM food crop will ever pose a greater health risk than conventional crops. Editors objecting to the page language are making a good point, insofar as that goes. But that does not mean that the preponderance of sources are saying that there is a meaningful risk in the food supply as a result of GM. It's important to grasp that distinction. And that in turn leads to my suggestion.

The language now on the page is that "food on the market derived from GM crops poses no greater risk to human health than conventional food, but...". The verb there is "poses", in the present tense. That is accurate, per the sources, but it also implies that the situation will remain true, going forward into the future. And that is not supported by the sources. Therefore, I suggest changing: poses to "has posed". Thus:

There is general scientific consensus that food on the market derived from GM crops has posed no greater risk to human health than conventional food, but should be tested on a case-by-case basis.

I could support that. Do other editors feel comfortable with it? --Tryptofish (talk) 20:39, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

That addition says there is consensus, and then there isnt. Its conflicting and does not deal with the synthesis problem. If the consensus claim stays it has to be shown where it is located. AlbinoFerret 21:24, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

I find it worrying that editor Tryptofish continues to ignore current concerns. He still fails to provide reliable sources for his consensus claim. prokaryotes (talk) 21:44, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

WP:OR which includes WP:SYNTHESIS is a core policy. It cant be overcome by local consensus of editors or RFC. A reliable source needs to be supplied. All the rest is just hand waving and distraction. AlbinoFerret 22:00, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

I find it worrying, myself, that when I say that I support the language about case-by-case, and I then offer an additional change in the direction of accommodating the editors who have disagreed with me, some of those editors brush off my comments and accuse me of ignoring them. It sounds like "we have to get rid of the word "consensus", because these are Frankenfoods, and no compromise less than that will be acceptable". As for that core policy, I'm all in favor of complying with policies, and I hope that editors will now look at what I said at the NOR noticeboard, about two theories of what SYNTH really is. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:01, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

I think we get in a little trouble with WP:SYNTH going this route because there are two slightly different ideas that go hand in hand here that the literature talks about. That's also why I've moved (but not removed) the case-by-case language. The issue is that there are two main parts to the consensus statements out there.

1. GM crops don't pose (present tense) an inherently greater health risk than their conventional counterparts. Full stop. This doesn't say there isn't any risk, but just that the risk doesn't inherently increase due to being a GMO. Risk analysis is a projection based science, so it uses current or future tense. This is basically just saying it's the traits within a variety that matter for safety assessment, not how the trait got there. GM and non-GM crops can have safety issues, which leads into . . .

2. Currently marketed GM crops haven't posed a greater risk to human health than conventional food and are assessed for safety on a case-by-case basis. Since the lack of risk due to being a GMO is established, any safety assessments are just done on a per variety or transgenic event basis.

Basically there's the question of whether GM inherently does something that could be a significant risk followed by whether the specific crop, regardless of where it's traits came from, can be considered safe while looking at some specific traits. That's with the understanding that conventional crops can also go through a safety screening and found to be unsafe. The two ideas are complimentary, not antagonistic to each other as long as someone is catching the nuance. We do need to be careful we don't intermingle them too much and lose the meaning of both though.

That's why I moved the case-by-case language out as a separate clause. The mounds of literature out there often may focus on one of the two ideas a bit more or expect the reader to have some of this background already (which is why science editors at Wikipedia are expected to have a certain amount of competency in the given topic). I haven't quite thought of a good way to improve the remaining "currently marketed" text to also include the nuance on methodology risk, but I don't think now is the time to try dealing with all that nuance a stick to the language that had already been agreed upon before this talk section opened up with respect to using general scientific consensus. The current language hits the meat of that enough for now. Kingofaces43 (talk) 01:41, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

You should check reference before removing sourced content. Though, i did not checked the other two edits you just edited.prokaryotes (talk) 02:15, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

It's a WP:LEDE. A source isn't always needed for those, especially when we just introduced all the sources in the prior sentence, and it's been that way for quite awhile now. Kingofaces43 (talk) 02:23, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

I'am puzzled by your response, the part you removed is sourced and discussed above, and are you suggesting to remove the references for the claim that there is a consensus? prokaryotes (talk) 02:28, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I only moved the case-by-case language. It was not deleted. It's a relatively minor detail, and it's already sourced in the previous sentence. So no, I never said absolutely all references should be removed from the lede, especially for something like the scientific consensus statement. Kingofaces43 (talk) 02:37, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

It is certainly not a minor detail, and there is no consensus for removing it, even Tryptofish suggest this addition above. prokaryotes (talk) 02:41, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Agreed this is not a minor detail, it is based on core policies, and if it violates it no local consensus of editors or RFC can stand compared to wide community consensus of core policies. that are the foundation of WP. AlbinoFerret 03:12, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Let's not go on a tangent here. The whole bit about being a minor detail in the relative sense is that it isn't something requiring a source under WP:LEDE. That's especially when the previous sentence is sourcing all those ideas already for something that should have lede references such as scientific consensus. Kingofaces43 (talk) 03:35, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

The tangent is WP:LEDE which is a guideline, which cant be used to overcome WP:VER and WP:SYNTHESIS/WP:OR which are core policies. Please provide the source. AlbinoFerret 04:10, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Per WP:LEDE, the sources are provided in the body, and the lede merely summarizes the body. There is not policy violation, so please stop flashing them about as if there is something wrong with following the lede guideline.Kingofaces43 (talk) 04:16, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Then it will be no problem to point out the specific source, page location, and wording for the scientific consensus claim. Please provide it. AlbinoFerret 16:27, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

What I think I am seeing here is that Kingofaces does not want the change in verb tense and wants the case-by-case lower in the paragraph; other editors want nothing less than the removal of the phrase "scientific consensus". I tried to offer a compromise, in between those two positions. I still hope that editors on each "side" will find it in their hearts to "give" a little. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:07, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Just to be sure it's clear, I was wanting the case-by-case language immediately after the consensus statement (as opposed to lower in the paragraph). There was a lot of mischaracterization above that I deleted the phrase entirely, moved it below a bunch of text, etc. Nothing as egregious as it would seem by reading the comments above. For tense, it just gets tricky here because there are both forward thinking and current evaluation statements out there as explained above. Both tenses are correct, but we need to be careful not to exclude one. Even at the potential of having a compromise, I would have to say the current wording does things marginally better. Kingofaces43 (talk) 23:24, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for correcting me about that; the wiki-markup made it look in the diff like there was a lot of stuff in between. I really do want to find a compromise, though. I actually am pretty satisfied with the version at the page a moment ago: [2]. But I wonder whether you could be persuaded to be flexible about the verb tense issue? Perhaps it won't be enough for the editors on the other "side", but any movement towards peace would be helpful. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:30, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Separating out the case-by-case language as a separate clause is more important in my mind. Tense isn't as big of a deal for me as you presented at least, but my main mention of it is to be sure we have understanding on talk at least of the different ideas at play here where different tenses can apply. I'm not going to nitpick about tense at this time beyond talk page discussion though. Kingofaces43 (talk) 23:46, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

I do agree with both of you that the addition of the language "case-by-case" is an improvement of the representation of what is actually in the sources and I think Prokaryotes agrees too. That improvement is why I am not as aggressive as the others in challenging the change of "scientific agreement" to "scientific consensus", as I did when the change was first made and I wrote about it on this talk page here. (Yet, I do agree with the others that "scientific consensus" is OR and SYN. As is "scientific agreement".) Even though I have kept some distance from the emerging walls-of-text from this discussion of the "scientific consensus", because of the favorable addition, I want to remind you both and Aircorn of this: As I said above, I was quite troubled that what had previously seemed to be a Gentleman's agreement of the post-RfC discussion here to change "scientific consensus" to "scientific agreement" (in all the GMO articles that had it, not just GMO food), was completely undermined by bringing back the word "consensus". That is why we now have an explosion of posts objecting to the change. That compromise proposed and executed by Jytdog and even agreed to by Prokaryotes reduced the conflict over the sentence. Now that you three are trying to force the word "consensus" back in, opposition has predictably resurfaced. So I really don't understand what the purpose of trying to bring back the word "consensus" is and suggesting for yet another RfC, when that sentence had been fairly stable since the "consensus" was changed to "agreement". It seems like an invitation for drama. The two words are definitely not the same or there would not be so much opposition (or push) for the change. --David Tornheim (talk) 00:34, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

David, I appreciate your collegial approach here. I didn't take part in or follow that "gentleman's agreement", and looking back at it now to see what it says, it does not really seem that much like a clear consensus. I did not really follow this page closely until I saw Aircorn's edit that put "consensus" back, and the subsequent drama. Lately, I've been trying to stay away from GMO pages until such time as I see drama erupting, at which point I've been stepping back in. I agree with you that the words are not interchangeable, but it seems to me that "agreement" is a WP:WEASEL-word, whereas "consensus" is both precise and fully supported by the source material. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:02, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

There also wasn't ever any gentleman's agreement to use the term agreement, so there wasn't really anything to take part in there. We had settled on the phrase general scientific consensus, but that's as far as we've ever got on agreed upon language as of late. Kingofaces43 (talk) 01:17, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Source Request "scientific consensus"

To avoid any WP:SYNTHESIS which is on the core policy page WP:OR I request the source of the "scientific consensus" claim. This section need have nothing but a link to the source and a page number and a copy of the wording that supports the claim from a WP:RS. Those that the support the claim are asked to provide it. Arguing that its there and not providing the exact source and wording will not solve this issue. Please provide the required source per WP:VER. AlbinoFerret 02:49, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

I brought up the AAAS statement at the OR noticeboard as that is the strongest source currently in the article. BTW If this is synth (which I don't think it is) is not saying "scientific agreement" as problematic synth wise as saying "scientific consensus"? AIRcorn (talk) 21:27, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Just agreement maybe, considering that most GMOs are up for sale, we should reflect that. Just not the word consensus. prokaryotes (talk) 21:31, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

That doesn't address the synth question. AIRcorn (talk) 21:35, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Or use the per source quotation. prokaryotes (talk) 21:36, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

The only problem is that the AAAS source only lists 4 groups, not even mentioning scientific agreement or consensus, even worse it misstates the WHO that GMO's have to be guaged on a case by case basis, a red flag for reliability. It also does not list any other sources it relies on, second flag. Third it is a statement of the Board of directors of the AAAS, not the orginazation, third flag. Try again. If the statement said " The AAAS board of directors said four organizations ..............." even listing the WHO ect out, it would be one thing, but the problems with the source, and using it to back a "scientific consensus" statement is problematic. Its still OR/synthesis. AlbinoFerret 21:41, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

No point arguing this at two places. Better off at the No Original Noticeboard where there is a slight chance uninvolved editors might comment. AIRcorn (talk) 21:49, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard#OR on GMO articles AIRcorn (talk) 07:41, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Sentence regarding case-by-case testing in different countries

These two edits replaced sourced material:

Yet, some countries such as United States, Canada, Lebanon and Egypt do not have any special regulations for testing GM food on a case-by-case basis.

with this unsourced statement:

The safety of individual crops is assessed on a case-by-case basis...

This later statement is contradicted by RS about GMO regulations. In the edit which removed the original source statement, Kingofaces43 wrote "Not in source." Apparently, the editor did not read the source, it is indeed in the source and is brought up repeatedly in RS, especially RS that distinguishes US from EU regulations Numerous other law review articles say the same thing about the U.S., that there is no special testing for GM food, because of the substantial equivalence and Generally recognized as safe doctrines. . There was no justification for deleting the well sourced material and replacing it with unsourced material that is contradicted by the RS; therefore, I have restored the sourced material.

--David Tornheim (talk) 10:13, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

These tendentious tactics, especially the edit warring, needs to stop. Other editors mistaking a moved expanded sentence as deleted hasn't helped this discussion either. The source on the "special regulation" language says nothing of the sort. It says there isn't specialized legislation that mentions GMOs by name, but that's a non-issue because regulatory agencies deal with those nuances of developing new regulation. It goes quite in depth into the different ways GMOs are regulated in the US such as APHIS, FDA, etc. showing the language you are trying to revert back in is purely OR. You're basically trying to claim that because substantial equivalence is practiced, crops aren't evaluated on a case-by-case. That's a personal interpretation and an extremely incorrect one at that. Kingofaces43 (talk) 15:13, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

I did nothing tendentious. I simply wrote what is in the RS. APHIS is not part of the FDA. The FDA regulates American food for safety, not APHIS. All of the resources say the same thing: that GMO's are Generally recognized as safe by the FDA, and if a GMO product can be shown to "substantially equivalent" to the conventional crop, no special toxicity and animal feeding studies are required, unlike for food additives (and "novel" food), where those studies are required (explained on page 746 of Marden). The RS also say that part of the process of approval in the U.S. is voluntary despite requests from the AMA that it be made mandatory (verifying this is as simple as looking at the FDA website under the section titled "Consultation" here). To suggest that GMO products are tested on case-by-case basis with toxicity and animal feeding studies as is required in Europe is misleading. If any edit is tendentious, it is putting such a misleading statement in the article. If you want to take this to a notice board, please do. --David Tornheim (talk) 16:38, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

General agreement

In the lead it currently says general agreement. This is actually a broader designation than scientific agreement or even scientific consensus. Given the public opposition to GM crops I would be surprised if this was accurate, and it is definitely not supported by the sources. Maybe someone not in danger of 1RR would like to fix it? Pinging @Prokaryotes: on they off chance this is what the intended. AIRcorn (talk) 04:30, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

My main involvement here is because of the word consensus, i changed back to what i believe is a past version. The best way to resolve this dilemma is probably to stick with quotes, like from AAAS. Additional i would add the quote from the WHO about case per case basis. prokaryotes (talk) 04:37, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Especially since we have sources using language like "There is broad scientific consensus that genetically engineered crops currently on the market are safe to eat."[3] and "Currently available transgenic crops and foods derived from them have been judged safe to eat and the methods used to test their safety have been deemed appropriate. These conclusions represent the consensus of the scientific evidence surveyed by the ICSU (2003) and they are consistent with the views of the World Health Organization (WHO, 2002). . ."[4]. The best thing to do at this point is stick with the scientific consensus language as the sources describe and cite the supporting sources that don't inherently say consensus, but reach the same conclusion for further explanation on the background. Kingofaces43 (talk) 04:40, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Notice the first cite to the Genetics website is from a single author, who was criticized for a flawed assessment by the Union of Concerned Scientist. However, the second reference (FAO) states in the main conclusion (introduction part), "There is a substantial degree of consensus within the scientific community on many of the major safety questions concerning transgenic products, but scientists disagree on some issues, and gaps in knowledge remain." prokaryotes (talk) 04:47, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• Comment Coincidentally there is an article about recent discussions on the food safety consensus, we discuss here, http://www.theecologist.org/News/news_analysis/2986952/why_is_cornell_university_hosting_a_gmo_propaganda_campaign.html prokaryotes (talk) 05:11, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

I think everyone is missing my point. This is not about the word consensus, but the lack of the word scientific. Currently the article is misleading as it says there is general agreement. Scientifically yes. Publicly, politically and in the media not so much. AIRcorn (talk) 07:28, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

I suggested above to use direct quotes, such as from AAAS/WHO. This would resolve the entire debate here. prokaryotes (talk) 07:45, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

If it is found to be synth then something along those lines will need to be done as agreement and consensus or just as bad as each other in regards to OR. AIRcorn (talk) 08:31, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

^In the above edit, your edit note says, "Guess we have general agreement then". I do not believe that is what your above post actually says, and I do not believe it is true. Can you please explain? I do not agree to this plan, but am open to further discussion of proposed changes along those lines that are NPOV representations of what is in WP:RS of safety of GM food. --David Tornheim (talk) 17:40, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Also, per WP:MEDRS, we should be using the best secondary sources such as peer reviewed journal articles, ideally reviews (from the relevant subject field), such as Domingo(2011)and Krimsky(2015), right?

--David Tornheim (talk) 17:50, 26 January 2016 (UTC)