Talk:Benjamin Disraeli

Leader of the Opposition

The infobox has Disraeli being succeeded by Gladstone - surely this should be Salisbury, or at a pinch, Northcote ? RGCorris (talk) 16:27, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

I agree, but I think it should be removed entirely. As the situation after Disraeli's death showed, there really wasn't a single office at all times then.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:16, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Changing last sentence in the first paragraph in lead

From "He is, at 2016, the only British Prime Minister of Jewish birth." to "He has since been the only British Prime Minister of Jewish birth." or something along the lines, in order to make it more general rather than having to change the year number every 12 months. Anyone agree or object to this? (N0n3up (talk) 01:32, 16 February 2016 (UTC))

I've removed the year. It seems unnecessary. If there is a Jewish PM, people would certainly look to update the Disraeli article.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:20, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the tweak Wehwalt. (N0n3up (talk) 03:34, 16 February 2016 (UTC))

Balkan POV edit warring

An IP has been trying to force some POV wording onto the talk page. Such wording, in my opinon, needs to be backed up with some very strong references, which have not been provided. IP, the thread is now open for you to discuss the matter. If you continue to edit war, a report will be filed, and there may well be repercussions. - SchroCat (talk) 11:22, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

I agree. The cited sources don't support the IP's somewhat dramatic interpretation of events. This is a featured article and it really doesn't benefit from the insertion of uncited personal points of view (any more than non-FAs do, for that matter). Tim riley talk 12:22, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Dear Schrocat, Martinevans123 and Tim riley. Allow me to introduce myself - my name is Dimitar Popov, and as you may suggest, I am Bulgarian. This is not an issue for my impartiality - as you can easily see I am not objecting the fact that Disraeli was one of Europe's leading statesmen at the time. As a matter of fact my only objection is against the wording "he worked at the Congress of Berlin to maintain peace in the Balkans". While an average British, perhaps could not care less about what happened to the Balkans at the time or after that (and why should he or she?), for a Bulgarian this is a rather sensitive matter. It is a part of our history that lays the foundation for three national catastrophes (one Balkan war and two World wars), the tragic loss of hundreds of thousands of lives - both Bulgarian and foreign (British too for that matter, since we fought on opposite sites during the world wars), and the fact that it is still the chewing gum of every far-right pseudopatriot that my country is, unfortunately, so abundantly producing. Working in an archive, dealing with historical documents on a daily basis and understanding the importance of discussing historical events objectively and without too much flair, I tried to make my case as clear as possible: British representatives insisted on creating two separate Bulgarian autonomous provinces, which was followed by the unification of these two provinces, which was followed by the Serbo-Bulgarian war of 1885, etc. At the end of this post I will paste my reply to Martinevans123 in full, but since my POV (which is actually a mere statement of a fact) is being questioned or even labelled as "somewhat dramatic interpretation of events", I would like in return to be provided with the very strong references, supporting the statement that "Disraeli worked at the Congress of Berlin to maintain peace in the Balkans". I welcome the opportunity for a report to be filed if that needs to be done in order for some objectivity to be achieved.

Looking forward to your reply and references.

Sincerely Dimitar

P.S. Messagge to Martinevans123: "Greetings! The exact quotation from the 1879 Annual Register is: “Although the country inhabited by the Bulgarians extends far to the south of the Balkans, the Berlin Congress decided, chiefly in consequence of the firm attitude maintained on the point by the British plenipotentiaries, that the Balkans should form the southern frontier of the Bulgarian principality, and that the remainder of the Bulgarian territory should be constituted a province of the Turkish Empire under the name of Easter Roumelia, with an autonomous administration under a Turkish governor.” A much more recent publication – Salisbury, Victorian Titan by Andrew Roberts (1999) – states that: “On 17th June the Congress got down to the meat of the Bulgarian question, with Salisbury proposing that Bulgaria be split into an autonomous principality north of the Balkan mountain range, whilst the territory south of it would be called the province of Eastern Roumelia and left under the military and political control of the Sultan...”. It will take a special kind of talent to hold that the best thing to do in order “to maintain peace in the Balkans” (as this is what I am contesting) is to divide a nation into two different neighbouring states. The inevitable consequence of this brilliant diplomatic solution was their unification just seven years later – in 1885, after a rather peaceful revolution. As this event is a historical fact I do not think that quoting a particular publication is necessary, but at the same book Mr. Roberts describes the complete chaos that followed (pages 352 to 356) and, amusingly, the new development that since in the meanwhile Bulgaria became anti-Russian, now Salisbury favoured big Bulgaria. What followed from the 1885 unification, which followed the decision at the 1878 Berlin Congress to split the nation in two autonomous states, was the Serbo-Bulgarian war from November 1885. The official casus belli was the violation of the Berlin Congress. That was a rather brief war, that lasted a couple of weeks, but due to the surprising Bulgarian victory, it ended with the acknowledgement of the unification of Bulgaria. Nonetheless it deeply divided the two Balkan nations and that would have implications later, during the First (1912-1913) and Second (1913) Balkan wars, when Bulgaria fought first, along with the other Balkan states against Turkey for liberating the remaining provinces populated by Christians and then against its former allies for dividing the spoils of war. To wrap up – my argument is that: 1) you cannot state that there was piece in a region (the Balkans) when a war broke out just seven years after the Berlin Congress (followed by further conflicts few decades later) and 2) this turn of events is directly influenced by Disraeli’s government that demanded the separation of one of the Balkan countries (Bulgaria), that ultimately led to that war. I hope that this would suffice." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.199.196.106 (talk) 14:51, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Dear Dimitar, Regardless of what you believe about the circumstances or situation (which is classed on Wiki as WP:original research), do you have solid, reliable sources in the form of published academic works, etc, that specifically states that Disraeli's action "led to the destabilisation of the Balkans". We can't string together a series of events to fit our own point of view, we are here to reflect what the sources say - or rather what the balance of sources reasonably say. - SchroCat (talk) 14:57, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Dimitar, I must agree with SchroCat. It isn't that anyone disagrees or agrees with your take on the Congress and its outcome: it's that we are all here to present a scrupulous summary of what reliable published sources say, and to include citations saying where any of our statements is taken from. As you can see from the list of sources for the article, we have drawn on a wide range of distinguished historians and cited their statements. It seems to me that the article as it stands does that in re the Congress. Have you a reputable source that states clearly that the Congress led to war in the Balkans? If so it can be taken into account in the text – after wide discussion, preferably. But do bear in mind that to reach the status of Featured Article, this article has been reviewed by multiple editors at peer review and featured article candidacy, at both of which stages, particularly the latter, the quality of the sources is scrutinised. Tim riley talk 15:55, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

SchroCat – it is completely irrelevant what I believe – I am writing about facts and the chain of events – you’re more than welcome to check them for yourself. I’m still waiting for the solid, reliable sources – author, title, if possible quote – in the form of published academic works, etc, that specifically states that Disraeli's action led to "maintaining peace in the Balkans". Tim, there is a number of historians that support or express this view. Prof. Elena Statelova, for instance, in ‘History of Bulgaria in three volumes’, Volume III, History of New Bulgaria, 1878-1944, where she writes about the immediate consequences of the Berlin Congress. Prof. Hristo Hristov writes the following in, perhaps the most authoritative History of Bulgaria, published by the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences (Vol VI, Sofia 1987): “The Berlin Treaty is aimed at destroying the progressive results of the war (the 1877-1878 Russo-Turkish War). It limited the scope of the liberation and anti-feudal struggle in the Balkans, destroyed the national unity of the Bulgarian people, left considerable Bulgarian and Balkan territories under Ottoman rule, granted Bosna and Herzegovina to Austro-Hungary. All this makes the Berlin treaty a reactionary peace treaty, which the Bulgarian and the rest of the Balkan states could not accept.” Richard Crampton writes in the second edition of his ‘A Concise History of Bulgaria’ (Cambridge, 2005): “The treaty of Berlin of July 1878 satisfied British and Austro-Hungarian demands... The new Bulgarian state was to enter into life with a ready-made programme for territorial expansion and a burning sense of the injustice meted out to it by the great powers.” The new state therefore began life with a ready-made irredentist programme and a bitter resentment at its treatment by the great powers. Again the same author in ‘Bulgaria’ (Oxford, 2007): “The new state therefore began life with a ready-made irredentist programme and a bitter resentment at its treatment by the great powers.” At the end I’d like to quote whoever wrote the article on the Berlin Congress in Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_of_Berlin): “Thus, the [Berlin] congress sowed the seeds of further conflicts, including the Balkan Wars, and ultimately the First World War.” — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.199.196.106 (talk) 18:40, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

The line in the lead as it stands represents what is written in the body of the article, where it carries citations. If you look in the relevant section of the article (rather than just the summary in the lead) you will find the relevant citations. – SchroCat (talk) 19:17, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

The fact that you are asking me to do that, given my posts so far, only shows that you severely underestimate the person that you are talking to. It also hints that I am overestimating the person that I am talking to. Of all article references, which one (or more) states that Disraeli's action led to "maintaining peace in the Balkans"? Please, do take a moment before you answer, to reflect upon the possibility that I might have access to all of them. You should know by now that this is not the kind of discussion that you might be having over a pint or a cuppa, it require a bit of mental effort for historical objectivity’s sake. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.199.196.106 (talk) 19:44, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Dimitar, Please do not start insulting people. I have tried to help you by explaining where the citations were that you asked for. There was no need for you to suddenly personalise the discussion, which is only going to ensure that people start being personal to you, which is not going to help anyone. – SchroCat (talk) 20:00, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I managed to get myself into a petty argument, for which I apologise. At this point it pretty much doesn’t really matter to me what will happen to the article – anyone interested in these particular historical event knows the facts and where to get them from, and I wanted to see it as accurate as possible on Wikipedia, which I often use and strongly support. My suggestion may be wrong but that was not proven (even another Wikipedia article supports it). Anyway. All the best, Dimitar — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.199.196.106 (talk) 20:09, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

After all is said and done it appears that there is no point to “DISCUSS THIS ON THE TALK PAGE” further. As kindly suggested by SchroCat I am requesting a dispute resolution. Since I am not familiar at all about how Wikipedia ‘works’ in these circumstances I expect this to be an interesting experience. In the meanwhile I still believe that it will be only fair to either provide me with particular source, author, and quote if possible (I am not asking for more than I delivered myself) or accept the suggested correction. Regards! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.199.196.106 (talk) 22:23, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

I haven't participated in this discussion, but I would note that the main article text concerning the Balkans primarily follows Blake's biography of Disraeli. That's the standard, but it's also fifty years old and Blake by his own admission was not a specialist on the Balkans. On reading over the section I'd call it very "traditional" and it would benefit from the inclusion of more recent work. Mackensen (talk) 23:39, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

I would have no objection to another opinion being inserted with in-line sourcing. The article doesn't say long term peace and historians have their own opinions on such things.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:24, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

I'd happily sign up for that. Would you be willing to provide an alternative form of words? Tim riley talk 07:38, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

What quote are we using?--Wehwalt (talk) 07:47, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

I've only got Blake, Bradford and Roberts (on Salisbury) to hand - none of them of the most recent vintage. If you or Mackensen can lay hands on a more recent source I'm happy to go along with that. Tim riley talk 08:27, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

About the same here, I'm afraid.--Wehwalt (talk) 08:43, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

I appreciate all recent contributions on the topic. On the dispute resolution page (my thanks to Robert McClenon) was pointed out that I have not notified the other editors about it. The truth is that i do not know how – it is available here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Talk:Benjamin_Disraeli It might be helpful to remind that I have already provided an exact quotation from a source – Hristo Hristov’s statement, which should not weigh less than that of Robert Blake. To claim otherwise would be to say that all sources are equal but some sources are more equal than others. Hristov’s argument needs not be accepted over Blake’s, but since we have two contradicting statements I would suggest that both should be accepted critically. Another source I’d like to add is Misha Glenny, who writes in ‘The Balkans’ (Chapter 3): “The Greeks, he [Disraeli] said, ‘had utterly mistaken the purpose of the Congress: they seemed to imagine that it was to partition the Ottoman Empire, while nothing was further from the thoughts of the assembly. Like individuals who have a future, states, lectured Beaconsfield, must learn to wait. In this instance, Beaconsfield was probably deluding himself rather than lying.” He also quotes Salisbury saying: “he has the dimmest idea of what is going on – understands everything crossways – and imagines a perpetual conspiracy.” The Disraeli article states that: “he [Disraeli] worked at the Congress of Berlin to maintain peace in the Balkans”. How can we know for sure what he worked there for? Let’s not forget that Great Britain got Cyprus out of the Berlin Congress and historically supported the Ottoman Empire to keep open the road to India and the Russian power in check. At the end we should report facts, not intents, especially politicians’ intents, which always raise suspicion or at least should. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.199.196.106 (talk) 23:13, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

Hristo Hristov? Which one? Martinevans123 (talk) 23:25, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

"Prof. Hristo Hristov writes the following in, perhaps the most authoritative History of Bulgaria, published by the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences (Vol VI, Sofia 1987): “The Berlin Treaty is aimed at destroying the progressive results of the war (the 1877-1878 Russo-Turkish War). It limited the scope of the liberation and anti-feudal struggle in the Balkans, destroyed the national unity of the Bulgarian people, left considerable Bulgarian and Balkan territories under Ottoman rule, granted Bosna and Herzegovina to Austro-Hungary. All this makes the Berlin treaty a reactionary peace treaty, which the Bulgarian and the rest of the Balkan states could not accept.” See, previous post to SchroCat. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.199.196.106 (talk) 05:42, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

Bertrand Russell's appraisal

https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A5%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE_%D0%A5%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B2_(%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BA)

There is little direct criticism of Disraeli in the article, especially from later commentators? In his 1935 Legitimacy Versus Industrialism 1814–1848, Bertrand Russell describes Disraeli, alongside Coleridge, Carlyle and The Tractarians as “a medievalist”. He says "Disraeli, who dreamed the same dreams, was powerful enough to twist reality to his fancy: he saw our Indian Empire, not merely as a market for cotton goods, but as a revival of the splendours of Solomon or Augustus. But by lending a romantic glamour to imperialism he encouraged tyranny and plunder on the part of those he persuaded to share his self-deception.” Some may consider Russell to be only an amateur popular historian, but I think this is an illuminating and incisive comment that might be worth adding. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:13, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

I did a google search and none of the hundreds of history scholars have seen fit to quote Disraeli. So I'm negative. Russell shows little familiarity with Disraeli--the same page denounces a variety of authors and religious leaders for their cruelty. Rjensen (talk) 12:20, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

Did you mean "quote Russell on Disraeli"? I can see what you mean, maybe Russell's own agenda is just too strong here. He's outspoken throughout the whole book - I think that's why it's so entertaining! Martinevans123 (talk) 12:24, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps, as someone brought up in the household of a Whig prime minister, it would be asking a lot to expect Russell to be dispassionate about Disraeli. I boggle at the coupling of the gruesome author of Sartor Resartus with the incomparable author of "Kubla Khan". Still this book sounds fascinating and I shall seek it out. Tim riley talk 14:49, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

Um, yes there is that, I suppose. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:27, 24 February 2016 (UTC)