Talk:Jamala

Armenian transliteration of name

Should there be an Armenian transliteration of Jamala's name in the lead? In my opinion, no. There's already a Ukrainian and Crimean Tatar transliteration, and adding a third just clogs up the lead section and is unnecessary, in my opinion. Jamala is only half-Armenian and has had no connection to Armenia despite her small ethnic origin (Previously it said her mother was half-Armenian I believe, however this was changed to just Armenian sometime around a month ago and I never thought anything of it). I removed the Armenian transliteration, stating it was too much and unnecessary, but another user recently added it back citing that some other half-Armenians had the transliterations of their names in the lead. However, just because there's a precedent doesn't mean that it's correct, and also these half-Armenians did not have two other transliterations in the lead of languages the subject is much much much more closely related to. So what are everyone else's thoughts on this issue? { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 00:11, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

I would say it belongs. If she's half-Armenian, as the article says, then obviously the Armenian version of her name is relevant and in line with articles on lots of other people with mixed heritage. Jeppiz (talk) 00:15, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

I've looked back in the page's history, and it was stated that Jamala's mother was half-Armenian until a user randomly changed it to say "an Armenian mother". I've since changed it to reflect that Jamala is only one-quarter Armenian. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 00:21, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

It would probably be useful to have a good source in English on her background. I'd suggest we leave in the Armenian part for now while awaiting a source that most of us can evaluate.Jeppiz (talk) 00:27, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Why leave it in until we should evaluate it? It should be left out until we have a source specifically commenting on it, leaving it in despite everything being foggy makes no sense to me. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 00:30, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

The situation right now is that the article said she's half-Armenian until you changed it, and you're pushing for the Armenian name to be removed with no policy justification except WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Could you cite the policy for removing the Armenian version of her name? Jeppiz (talk) 01:02, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

I've now checked several sources, they say her mother is Armenian. Jjj1238's constant POV-pushing seems to be little more than pure vandalism, and an ANI report will very soon follow if this level of BLP-violations continue.Jeppiz (talk) 01:28, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

I do appreciate that Jjj1238 is at least discussing the matter. It's rather frustrating to see that some other user has again removed it, based purely on WP:IDONTLIKEIT, without even taking part in the ongoing discussion. That's a rather clear WP:BRD violation. Jeppiz (talk) 08:51, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Surely the Kirghiz version of her name should be included too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.180.36.53 (talk) 09:39, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

The fact that her mother is of Armenian ancestry does not make the Armenian spelling of her name any relevant. She has not ever lived in Armenia or is in any way associated with Armenia. There is absolutely no reason to have her (apparently Tatar) name spelled out in the Armenian script. --Երևանցի ^talk 09:08, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Susanna is not a Tatar name, but rather a Christian name very popular in Armenia. And she is half-Armenian. So your "arguments" are pointless. OptimusView (talk) 09:48, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Uhm, what value does the Armenian spelling of Susanna or Jamaladinova or Jamala add to the article? Does she speak Armenian? Does she know how to write in Armenian? Does she sing in Armenian? What exactly is her connection to the Armenian language? --Երևանցի ^talk 09:56, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Armenia and Armenian [1] are parts of her heritage. OptimusView (talk) 15:09, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

We already know about her Armenian heritage. Once again, what is her connection to the Armenian language? She does not represent Armenia, nor does she speak Armenian. --Երևանցի ^talk 18:09, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Funny that people are fighting over whether her name should be added in Armenian or not, but nobody cared to add her name in her mothertongue.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:59, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Is Russian her native language? If it is, I would totally support addition of her (birth) name in Russian. --Երևանցի ^talk 18:09, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Yes, sure. [2] She does not speak Crimean Tatar, and she learned Ukrainian as a foreign language as an adolescent.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:19, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Indeed. She also writes English texts of songs [3]. My very best wishes (talk) 18:25, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

And now User:Quackriot has, once again, added [4] the Armenian spelling of her name. I've encouraged him to discuss the matter [User_talk:Quackriot#Jamala.27s_Armenian_name] but they don't seem to care. --Երևանցի ^talk 17:38, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

I obviously care about this, otherwise I wouldn't insist on the Armenian transliteration staying. Why it could stay has already been adressed by some other users, but if you want, I can adress the matter too. You stated on my talk page that she "doesn't have an Armenian name and doesn't represent Armenia in any way"... the former is a half-truth - while her last name isn't Armenian, her first name is more Armenian than it is Crimean Tatar, as already stated by another user. As for the latter; I have tried to look up any rules which would state that representing a country is necessary for including a transliteration of the name in an article of a person and I have found none. And also, I have added into the article Jamala's statement that she felt at home in Armenia when she went there, so that should address Jjj1238's claims that Jamala "has had no connection to Armenia". Another one of the stated "reasons" was that "adding a third just clogs up the lead section and is unnecessary", which now that the third transliteration into Russian has been added and doesn't seem to bother anyone, seems little more than just another excuse to censure the Armenian. Quackriot (talk) 00:16, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Before this gets any more overheated than it needs to be, has anyone actually thought to check what the policies at MOS:BIO has to say on how to handle these cases? Other guidelines include MOS:BLPLEAD, WP:BIRTHNAME, and WP:GIVENNAME. You then have WP:BLPSTYLE to take into account, and avoid coatracking an article. Also WP:BLPSOURCES states to avoid sources that are tabloid journalism, and we must also avoid self-published sources too, and that is a core ruling when it comes to BLP articles. And even though WP:BLP has a section on "Presumption in favor of privacy", we also need to take into consideration what WP:BLPPRIVACY. Now once we have familiarised ourselves with all of those, then maybe we will have a better understanding on what we should be doing, rather than stumbling around in the dark and injuring ourselves. Wes Mouse ✒ 01:05, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I had a look at the policies and guidelines prior, and I didn't find any rule specificly stating how many can be included in the article, or what strictly determines which languages can be included. Unless I overlooked some specific rules (in which case I would kindly ask for anyone to quote the rules here), it seems to be a bit of a grey area, so admittedly, it's hard not to stumble around in the dark trying to discuss this, for all parties involved. That being said, you mentioned self-published sources - is there a specific source you had in mind that is problematic? Quackriot (talk) 01:52, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Fan page

Some of the text in this article is written in a fan page tone. Plenty of changes are probably needed to make this article less POV.BabbaQ (talk) 00:24, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

I have removed all the above mentioned material that was fan page in tone. --BabbaQ (talk) 12:49, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Mothernal

Please correct mothernal to maternal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.180.36.53 (talk) 09:35, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Genres

Where are they coming from? I saw indeed in one of the interviews she said she likes jazz and therefore decided not to go to classical music, but I do not see any evidence that she actually sings jazz. Everything I saw is pretty much pop, not other genres.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:43, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Yeah I agree. I say remove genres until there's a reputable source identifying the genres she's performed in. I had to remove the genres from the 1944 (song) page too. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 15:47, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Non-English titles

Shouldn't we include an English translation for the Ukrainian titled songs listed in her discography? This is Paul (talk) 17:25, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

where does she currently reside?

This info would be good for the articles. 98.67.188.147 (talk) 18:45, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Kiev. I believe it was in one of the earlier versions but was deleted.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:56, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Note for Crimea

I'm sure I've seen before the use of a subscript note for "Crimea" which describes its legal status (a similar note definitely exists for Kosovo). Could that be put in the infobox after her place of origin, because at the moment it would read that Crimea is an independent country, which no party purports.

P.S. I have never been to Ukraine or Russia, I do not have any bias in this dispute. '''tAD''' (talk) 20:39, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

What does it actually mean that her origin is Alushta?--Ymblanter (talk) 20:43, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Nothing so far as it remains uncited (in the section #Early life). We shouldn't talk about annotating unreferenced info. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:53, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

If that's the reason, it's innacurate for the field in the musician infobox. Origin is for where a person did their first career-defining music, their "scene" if you will. For example, Eminem was born in Missouri, grew up outside Detroit, but his music was first career-defining music was in Detroit. '''tAD''' (talk) 21:14, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Then it is most likely Kiev, but I guess for the time being it should be out of the infobox.--Ymblanter (talk) 21:16, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Removed "Rehmat's World"

I removed "Rehmat's world" as one of three references for Jamala's religion. Rehmat is a WordPress blogger for one, and the reference bemoans "Jewish oligarchs" for keeping a Crimean Tatar oligarch out of politics. The page also calls Stalin a "crypto-Jew" who married three Jews, in keeping with the Nazi conspiracy of "Judeo-Bolshevism". The related articles include "Jew singer represents Turkey", a use of the noun "Jew" for the adjective "Jewish" common in conspiracy circles, and the description for another related article includes the phrases "Jewish agenda" and "Jewish-controlled media". There are undoubtedly better references by Muslims who have a more accurate understanding of the difference between Judaism and Zionism. '''tAD''' (talk) 20:49, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Enough sources for religion?

As anyone's religion is an individual choice which can't be assumed through ethnicity, I'm sure there should be more reliable sources, preferably with a quote, for Jamala's beliefs. There is no mention on the GA-class article in Ukrainian.

Reuters, France 24, Newsweek and Sky, among the top stories, only mention religion in the Tatars in general. There are many people who identify with an ethnoreligious group -Jewish, Maronite, Bosniak - without being religious. I would presume that a first Muslim Eurovision winner would command the same wealth of stories as the first Muslim mayor of London. '''tAD''' (talk) 21:43, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Found a Ukrainian source. Ignore everything I wrote '''tAD''' (talk) 21:48, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Note that the majority of Ukrainian sources are essentially blog agregators: they agregate opinions without having any editorial policy. We should be very careful using Ukrainian sources especially if the info is questionable and not confirmed by reliable sources.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:43, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

None of these sources actually supports the statement that she is a Muslim (see my comments below). She may be an atheist, whoever. My very best wishes (talk) 16:22, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Btw, even if she is Muslim, she wouldn't be the first Muslim Eurovision winner. The first Muslim Eurovision winner is Sertab Erener. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.2.149.6 (talk) 20:48, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Not the first Muslim woman to win Eurovision

She's not the first muslim woman to win Eurovision. 2003 winner Sertab Erener is a muslim woman too. This information should be taken out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cooss (talk • contribs) 04:48, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

It is sourced, but the source is very much biased, so that I would suggest taking it out.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:41, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

In 2011 Azeri singers Nigar Jamal and Eldar Gasimov won the competition. They were muslims as well. --Interfase (talk) 10:14, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

I agree with all of you, the statement is obviously false and should be removed. Jeppiz (talk) 10:37, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

There is no indication whether or not Eldar Gasimov or Nigar Jamal are Muslim. Simply being Azeri does not presuppose being Muslim. Parishan (talk) 10:59, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

There is an indication that Nigar Jamal, for example, is Muslim[5]. --Interfase (talk) 11:07, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

That is quite a sketchy website that mostly mirrors the information from the Russian Wikipedia. Parishan (talk) 11:31, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

I didn't see in Russian Wikipedia such information that Nigar is Muslim. So there is no anu mirroring. --Interfase (talk) 19:03, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

The website is still sketchy. It is not a reliable source. Parishan (talk) 14:07, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

More important, I do not see a single source telling that Jamala is a Muslim. No one disputes that Crimean Tatars practice this religion in general (sources above). However, to include such info we need (a) her personally be described as such (this usually requires a self-identification and actually practicing religion), and (b) that info should be important in context of her biography. So far it is not. For example, her song was about her people, not about religion. My very best wishes (talk) 14:05, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

For example, claiming that someone is an Orthodox Christian just because he was Russian would be wrong. The matters of personal faith can be contentious, hence my removal. My very best wishes (talk) 16:18, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

The Azeri winners of 2011 do not have information about their religion, so you're correct on that one. But for Jamala the case is different, there are actual sources that claim the fact. Thus for that reason, her faith should be mentioned. --Hyperwq+639 (talk) 17:59, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

What source(s) about her faith are you talking about? I did not see anything in sources mentioned above. My very best wishes (talk) 18:10, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

In this video Jamala says that she is Muslim. --Interfase (talk) 19:03, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

We have an information about the religion of Nigar Jamal, that I showed above. It states that she is a Muslim. --Interfase (talk) 19:03, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Unfortunately, this video is in Russian and has no written transcript. So, what exactly does she tell about this (quotation)? Is it in the part of the record deleted on YouTube for copyright violations? I am afraid that we need a better source. My very best wishes (talk) 19:20, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

It is enough. She was asked about her religion and the answer was: "I am Muslim" (1:40). --Interfase (talk) 05:04, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Another source with her (written) interview:

- And who do you believe?
- I am a Muslim and believe in Allah. But I am very respectful attitude to the Bible and Christianity. There is much common between Muslims and Christians.
Original text:
- А в кого верите вы?
- Я мусульманка и верю в Аллаха. Но я очень уважительно отношусь к Библии и христианству. Между мусульманством и христианством очень много общего.

--Interfase (talk) 05:12, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

OK, but we need a secondary source about her which explains why this is relevant and important in the context of her biography. I checked a good page about her in Ukrainian WP, and there is a lot of really important info to be included here, but it does not mention her religion anywhere (apparently she is not a religious person), and for a good reason: this is something undue. My very best wishes (talk) 12:57, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Here, two secondary sources in Russian/Ukrainian that claim she is Muslim.

• http://vogue.ua/article/culture/muzyka/zhurnal-den-s-pevicey-dzhamaloy.html : Jamala, a Muslim, celebrated without alcohol, but after a late party visiting the producer still a little sleepy. :: Original text: Джамала – мусульманка, праздновала без алкоголя, но после поздней вечеринки в гостях у продюсера все равно немного сонная.
• http://music.com.ua/reviews/cd/2011/04/21/33084.html : A native of Kyrgyzstan, a Muslim, Susana Dzhamaladinova (real name Jamala) also misses her. :: Original text: уроженка Киргизии мусульманка Сусана Джамаладинова (настоящее имя Джамалы) тоже по ней скучает.

--Hyperwq+639 (talk) 21:10, 17 May 2016 (UTC)