Talk:Britain First

Islamophobia - Ideaology?

Can "Britain First's" Islamophobia, though undoubtedly existent, be described as ideological? As a point of reference the British National Party has not been given this label in their infobox. Can we not make reference to this tendency elsewhere in the article? Hayek79 (talk) 11:16, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

It has been used in that way in many other articles. Why it's not in the BNP article I don't know, but it's never a good idea to say "article X says..., so therefore article Y should..." - Wikipedia is not always consistent! Emeraude (talk) 11:47, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree, when it can be proven by source it has been added to other articles. It's absence on the British National Party article is the mistake in this case --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 13:10, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Also, if we are using comparisons, the biggest article example of something like this would be Antisemitism on the Nazi Party article, the contemporary political trendsetter on racist rhetoric and an article that no doubt gets many thousands of hits --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 13:13, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

In any case, it was sourced from a bare-URL ITV story quoting a Labour MP. Due to the nascent nature of the party, we may have to wait a while to get academic papers supporting this as an ideology of the party. '''tAD''' (talk) 12:01, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Well, personally I think the link sustains, but I've been aware of the group for a while and know that they spend almost all of their time berating Islam. I think it is inaccurate to remove it altogether rather than add a citation needed. In fact, I think it is proven by the content of the article ("it campaigns primarily on what it perceives as the Islamification of the United Kingdom"/"Britain First... campaigns against Islam") and doesn't even necessary need a citation. Do you have a problem with it being there? Should we remove all mention of Islam from the article? Why should we improperly report on the group? --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 12:09, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Did I say that? Did I remove every mention of Islam from the article? Don't be ridiculous. And why haven't you reported their self-proclaimef "invasions" of mosques if you are so accurate? '''tAD''' (talk) 12:27, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

That's a good point, I think that should also be added to the article. What I'm saying is, why did you feel the need to remove it outright when there is evidence in article that it is true, rather than just removing what you think is a bad reference? --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 13:10, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

It was an error, not my POV. '''tAD''' (talk) 13:35, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

I apologise, in that case I'm going to retract some of my comments earlier. The section had been removed twice before then but I shouldn't have assumed bad faith --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 13:47, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 May 2014

The link to the "about us" page on the britain first website is broken 81.108.89.77 (talk) 20:14, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Fixed I have replaced the reference with an archived copy of the webpage from December 2013. Thank you for pointing that out! Mz7 (talk) 20:24, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Dowson a "hardliner" who rejects non-white members

According to the two sources quoted on the page that someone just removed, Dowson groped a female activist which led to his expulsion from the BNP in 2010. In Dowson's own words the accusation was part of a "dirt-tricks campaign" to oust him as a party-hardliner who rejected non-white members: "There is a real power struggle between hardliners and people like Nick Griffin who want to open the party to Asians and other groups". However Dowson recently has been criticizing the BNP as neo-nazi and extreme, and trying to present Britain First as moderate in regards to race issues. I presume the person who removed the sourced quote about Dowson being a hardliner rejecting non-whites is someone from Britain First. Akkadish (talk) 17:44, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Populist photos

Is there any research into what appears to be a coordinated series of interlinked Facebook campaigns using populist photos and slogans ? It seems to be a new vector for publishing their material and I can't seem to find anything commenting on it. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pgb62uk (talk • contribs) 08:42, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

This is the nearest thing I've read to it from a reasonable source: http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/news-opinion/jade-wright-says-think-twice-7230185 However, there's not really "substance" to what she is saying, and I don't think it would be encyclopedic to say "Jade Wright of the Liverpool Echo stated that Britain First used populist photos showing hanging and D-Day veterans to get likes on Facebook". '''tAD''' (talk) 14:03, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Full protection for a day

Please calm down, all! Fully protected for 24 hours. Please hash out your disputes here - David Gerard (talk) 12:28, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

The problem isn't about edit warring or content disputes, but Uncylopedia-style "satire" being inserted into the article by an IP constantly. '''tAD''' (talk) 12:34, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Now the fucking talk page is being vandalised '''tAD''' (talk) 14:22, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

%-D Policy says: "Talk pages are not usually protected, and are only semi-protected for a limited duration in the most severe cases of vandalism." - David Gerard (talk) 15:20, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

If consensus is to take it back to semi, I have no objection at all - David Gerard (talk) 15:20, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

I saw the one about "Britian First is a joke", was there any other vandalism? AnarchoGhost (talk) 15:44, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

See history. An IP repeatedly inserted some sort of meme joke about Britain First being the same as Voldemort. As it was so frequently inserted over and over, this has been interpreted as an "edit war", which would be between two users with coherent content, rather than flagrant vandalism. '''tAD''' (talk) 17:47, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

He also vandalised my user space for having the audacity to remove his hackneyed "jokes" from the page https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:The_Almightey_Drill&diff=612527682&oldid=612527575

Far-right

I removed "Paul Gallagher calls the group far-right" from the intro because he is one, non-notable figure in a very brief intro. However, I have no prejudice against inserting "various outlets have called Britain First far-right" and then a trail of citations from different titles afterwards. '''tAD''' (talk) 20:44, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Even the Daily Mail calls BF far right...... Good enough ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.114.201.154 (talk) 20:15, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

We already have a trail of different sources calling them far right. Please mail your comment back 10 months to when it may have been relevant. '''tAD''' (talk) 20:35, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Leadership

Note that Paul Golding is actually the Party Leader, not the Chairman, as per http://www.britainfirst.org/leadership/ Lcooperuk (talk) 11:21, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Note that Lee Cooper and Jim Dowson have both resigned from Britain First and neither occupy any official position. Lee Cooper is no longer the Chairman. 82.69.55.3 (talk) 19:06, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

The so-called "citations" for labelling the group as "fascists" link to opinion pieces by left-wingers - two in newspapers, one on a leftist website. They are no doubt "right of centre", relative to the mainstream media's definition of "centre", but the adjective "fascist" is blatant, over-the-top propaganda, given that opinion polls show that a large percentage of the public consider them to be reasonable. Allowing obvious propaganda with shabby "citations" contributes to wikipedia's increasing lack of credibility. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.147.124.196 (talk) 16:53, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

Another mosque entry

[1]. All in the name of equality of course. Dougweller (talk) 18:25, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Added. However, as these become more common, each occurrence will be less notable. '''tAD''' (talk) 21:34, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Also added from a HuffPost article, a bit of a faux pas in the publicity department from this event. Article was also useful for analysis of their Facebook figures in a way which is not WP:OR '''tAD''' (talk) 22:50, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Sources

Let's reinstate the sources that say Britain First is fascist and let's use some honesty rather than blindly claiming that something is "biased" or "unreliable" just because you don't like what it says.

Adam Bienkov is a respected journalist, having reported for The Guardian, MSN News, New Statesman, BBC, LBC. His article about BF for politics.co.uk is not biased, and neither is politics.co.uk. To quote from the site: "Politics.co.uk is the UK's leading political news website among MPs and members of the public. With over 150,000 visitors a month, Politics.co.uk's team of journalists produce their stories from deep within the corridors of power in Westminster, where they were the first digital journalists to gain access to the lobby. Politics.co.uk is an impartial political website with no political affiliation, which prides itself on standing out as an independent voice in a landscape where the norm is to nail your colours to the mast." This source was first deleted becase "Only mention of Fascism is in the title, not developed further" which is totally misleading - the whole article is about the fascism of the party that was identified in the title. It's second deletion was because "Biased source -> Needs multiple more reliable sources". Well, it's not biased, as I've said, but what is meant by a "more reliable" source? Presumably, the source was reliable, but we need something that is more reliable. That is nonsense. Something is reliable or it's not. Besides, Wikipedia does not specify a minimum number of sources, so the "multiple" bit is redundant - one source can be sufficient, and with a minor group like this coverage is notoriously minimal. But, of course, you can only complain that there are not enough sources if the others have already been deleted anyway!

Why was UAF removed as a source? Because "UAF opposes BF so is not a reliable source". Odd reasoning that: Unite Against Fascism opposes fascists, strangely enough, but when it opposes someone, it's not reliable! Why on earth do you think UAF opposes BF????

In addition to this, just look at what they say and do and who they are. It was set up and is led by people with long histories in other fascist groups and specifically to exploit the coming collapse of the BNP (a fascist group!) in which they held leading positions. What has changed to stop them being fascist? Emeraude (talk) 16:11, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

The so-called "citations" for labelling the group as "fascists" link to opinion pieces by left-wingers - two in newspapers, one on a leftist website. They are no doubt "right of centre", relative to the mainstream media's definition of "centre", but the adjective "fascist" is blatant, over-the-top propaganda, given that opinion polls show that a large percentage of the public consider them to be reasonable. Allowing obvious propaganda with shabby "citations" contributes to wikipedia's increasing lack of credibility. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.147.124.196 (talk) 16:55, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

I wouldn't call UAF's view of BF reliable just as UKIP, Daily Mail or BF views of UAF are unlikely to be lucid and nuanced and rightfully are not in UAF's infobox. UAF have also called David Cameron and the Union Jack fascist, which is simply bizarre - Mo Farah, Jessica Ennis and Kelly Holmes enveloping themselves in a flag of fascism? We open up a huge can of worms if descriptions by minor political organisations of other minor political organisations is now considered a RS '''tAD''' (talk) 17:38, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

...And as you told that other user that one source is plenty, I'm confused as to why you added the UAF source, especially as you've just told us how neutral and water-tight reliable the politics.co.uk source is! Also, your "leopards don't change spots", however accurate, is WP:OR, and would indicate that UAF would be a communist or Islamist group, as the vandals consistently write. And I'm not a BF member before you ask. I doubt they really even have the notability for a Wikipedia article at all. '''tAD''' (talk) 19:36, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Please do not twist my words to make a non-point. I did not say "that one source is plenty"; I said "one source can be sufficient". There's a world of difference and I'm sure you know that. It ill-behoves you to suggest I'm guilty of OR by using OR arguments yourself, but I take your point. Even though we do agree that these leopards haven't changed their spots! Emeraude (talk) 15:10, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

With due respect, Emeraude, I think tAD is quite right to have dismissed the labelling of any kind when it is based solely on the headline of an article. Even Politics.co.uk, as you've admitted elsewhere ("Another case of headline writers not reading the article I fear."), is not infallible in creating headlines which reflect the actual facts of a story. Politics.co.uk's actual article re Britain First describes the organization as "links to far-right protestant extremism and Northern Irish terrorism", and quotes a source describing them as "the far-right version of al-Muhajiroun, the Islamist group led by Anjem Choudary": so violent religious extremists, rather than fascists, it could be argued. So I certainly back tAD in opposing this as a source for the "fascist" label. If a reliable source explicitly uses that label in the body of its article (rather than in the headline), then certainly there's a case for using that label. Alfietucker (talk) 18:07, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

I take the due respect with a pinch of salt, but the key issue is this: the sloppy headline writing I described elsewhere is exactly that: sloppy. No, actually, it's total crap, as I explained - the headline was totally unsupported by the article that followed and, more importantly, by the academic research it was reporting on. In this case, there is no such contradiction and, indeed, the article supports the headline and vice versa more than adequately. However, it is disingenuous, as you do, to argue one line here and the opposite elsewhere - I risk getting confused (as I'm sure will uninvolved readers). My arguments in these two issues are separate and not contradictory. BF is undoubtedly fascist - no one has denied this, note - and politics.co.uk adequately demonstrates this. Emeraude (talk) 21:39, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Emeraude, just to make this quite clear, my line is consistent (one that I have presented several times before, albeit not necessarily to you): *never* use a headline alone, ever, to support a label or a line of argument in WP. Headlines as a rule are never written by the author of the article, but by a sub, or by the web editor, whose job is first to catch readers' attention: therefore they are - if one is lucky - a partial reflection of what the article actually says. Quite often they are not even that. Alfietucker (talk) 08:03, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Alfietucker is absolutely correct. Headlines are a dreadful source and can misrepresent the actual article. It's always been the case even on the best publications. (I actually learned this when I was PS to the city editor of the Miami Herald decades ago). Dougweller (talk) 09:28, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Everybody in the world, if they want to be honest with ourselves, can see that Britain First's Nationalism + Traditionalism + Confrontationalism is hard to define as anything except Fascism. I think Alfie's point is that sources are needed. '''tAD''' (talk) 13:07, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

OK, so now we're looking for someone to make a statement of the bleeding obvious. What chance of that? Emeraude (talk) 21:04, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Update needed

Britain First founder quits, http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/britain-first-founder-quits-over-3923810

--Pennine rambler (talk) 03:23, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for the source. I'm surprised that the vandals haven't indicated it yet. They've been quiet recently. '''tAD''' (talk) 13:03, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Beneath heading 'Rotherham' replace "In August 2014, after a report which revealed that over 1,400 girls had been sexually abused in Rotherham" with "In August 2014, after a report which revealed that over 1,400 CHILDREN had been sexually abused in Rotherham". Linking article confirms that children of both genders were sexually abused in Rotherham.

Mikenv (talk) 21:37, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Replaced '''tAD''' (talk) 21:47, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Controversy update

There are a number of controversial claims aimed at Britain First right now, least not those put forward by www.hopenothate.org.uk. This article does not cover any of them. I'm worried that this lack of objectivity may be a result of bias, and could therefore controvenene the neutral point of view policy. I would like to see this material covered, with citation of course. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.152.21.11 (talk) 15:26, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

SIGH. Be bold and include them then! What's stopping you? The fact we mention links to militant loyalism, mosque invasions, insensitive slogans shows this is not an unbalanced page. Maybe it's just not biased in your direction methinks? Would help if you would even mention the specifications of such controversies '''tAD''' (talk) 17:34, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure what could be used as a source. But the groups official Facebook page frequently posts content which is untrue. For example there will be an image of a muslim person and a caption saying something to enrage their audience. However the captions and posts they make are very often completely untrue and entirely fiction. The people in the photos completely irrelevant to what they are saying which is rather bad considering that they are posting images of random citizens and claming they have done some number of awful things.

In other words they make use of propaganda to try and anger readers into hating Muslims (or whomever their target is) and to gain support. I think this should be pointed out in this section so that people are aware that just because a group is technically a political party that they are not incapable of misleading people or rather outright lying. --Nikolai508 (talk) 21:21, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

If it's so important, prove it with a reliable source '''tAD''' (talk) 21:57, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Can it ever be said that a political is "incapable of misleading people or rather outright lying"? That's what they do. Emeraude (talk) 17:23, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

"Not technically a political party". Did you start writing that post in 2013? http://search.electoralcommission.org.uk/English/Registrations/PP2214 '''tAD''' (talk) 18:02, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Sikh members

@NicklasBaran: added the following

The party now has Hindu and Sikh members and supporters too, and has praised Sikh gurus and historic Hindu warriors like Maharana Pratap.

Neither of the two references support this claim. The first http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/feb/11/bnp-nonwhites-members-sikh-join is a 2010 article about the British National Party not Britain First and written before BF was even formed. The second http://www.fabians.org.uk/new-report-reveals-snapshot-of-british-sikh-community/ is a general article about Sikhs in the UK and does not mention either party. Whilst the statement may be true is is not supported by the references.--Salix alba (talk): 01:25, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

POPPY / RBL merchandise

No mention here of the sale of poppy merchandise on its site, its stalls and its social media sites. There has been on ongoing trademark issue with Royal British Legion. --Pennine rambler (talk) 18:28, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, indeed. If you have reliable information, add it to the article. Emeraude (talk) 21:49, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Daily Mail and Mirror

Why are using tabloids with poor reputations for fact checking and a tendency toward sensationalism for content about BLPs? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 19:17, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

They meet rs standards, although the broadsheets are preferable. TFD (talk) 23:42, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

And, strictly speaking, this is not a BLP. Emeraude (talk) 12:41, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

But here's The Independent backing the Mirror. Emeraude (talk) 13:25, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

BLP applies to all material about living people, regardless of the article subject. As for BLPs and the Daily Mail - [2]. Generally speaking when it comes to BLPs we try to use other sources rather than solely relying on the Daily Mail. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 14:44, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

I know that, but that doesn't make them unreliable and it gives you no right to order their removal. Emeraude (talk) 14:49, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Guardian Article

There a relatively detailed Guardian article on the group which goes into its history. It might be worth adding as a reference http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/25/truth-britain-first-facebook-far-right-bnp --Salix alba (talk): 23:44, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 March 2015

Adding the following to the Nigel Farage section:

A member of Britain First was arrested on suspicion of assault after leader Paul Golding led a group of eight to ten members to invade a meeting held by activists who staged a "Cabaret of Diversity" in Nigel Farage's local pub a week earlier.

This.is.zenab (talk) 14:05, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Already done Another editor has written about this incident. Alakzi (talk) 23:07, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 April 2015

Can I please, please edit this page?

Dcowan2000 (talk) 18:08, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

 Not done This is not the right page to request additional user rights.
If you want to suggest a change, please request this in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
Please also cite reliable sources to back up your request. - Arjayay (talk) 18:13, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

"Fascists"

I see a lot of people reverting the word "Fascist" and related terms in and out of the article. Now don't get me wrong, I appreciate this group has upset a great deal of people (including myself), but looking at the sources involved, I'm not sure politics.co.uk is reliable, the Telegraph piece describes them as "pound shop fascists", which sounds tongue in cheek, and The Independent puts "facist" in inverted commas. I suspect this is because the press doesn't take the group particularly seriously, but I think we need a better source for that to make the "fascist" claim in the infobox stick. "Far right wing" might be a suitable compromise. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:40, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

At least three reliable sources decribe them as fascist. That's good enough; we rely on sources. Within the article, there is sufficient background detail to make this appropriate. No source of which I am aware describes them as "far right wing", which in any case is so vague as to be almost useless. It's also worth noting that the removal of "fascist" has been done 7 times in less than two days by one editor whose edit summaries exhibit a clear POV issue and who is now blocked. Emeraude (talk) 10:14, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

I know, I blocked them; starting the thread here is not a co-incidence. There is a local news piece that quotes an independent councillor as saying "I saw they were from Britain First which is basically a fascist organisation" while this piece describes them as "far right group Britain First". My take is that the broadsheets are hesitant to talk about Britain First, let alone directly describe them as outright fascists because of fear of giving the group the oxygen of publicity and legitimacy. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:25, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

I prefer the term "far right" because that is the term used to describe them in academic writing. "Fascist" normally refers to historic Fascism in Italy and Germany. The term far right is vague because there is not necessarily a shared ideology, history or international connection, yet there is sufficient similarity to identify a political family or group of families. The term far right refers to their perceived position on the political spectrum. TFD (talk) 01:46, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

The lack of references probably demonstrates their fringe nature rather than a fear of publicity :-) Pound Shop its is a brilliant description. How about remove it from the info box per TFD, but add in the lede that 'The Daily Telegraph has described them as "Pound Shop fascists"' ----Snowded ^TALK 06:21, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

The term "far right" is altogether too vague, covering variously everything to the right of the Tories, including fascism. And "Fascist" does not normally refer to historic Fascism in Italy and Germany. I would agree that with a capital F, the term should be restricted to parties that used it in their name, so not Hitler!, and not just Mussolini. What about the British Union of Fascists, Imperial Fascist League, British Fascists, National Fascisti, Scottish Democratic Fascist Party? And that's just in Britain! Mussolini recognised that there were numerous fascist parties outside Europe (and the Italian Foreign Ministry produced a report on them in the 1930s which details several dozen, not all with "Fascist" in their name). In lower case, "fascism" has a quite clear meaning which encompases all of the parties just mentioned and includes such more modern British groupings such as Jordan's National Socialist Movement and Tyndall's various foundations, including Greater Britain Movement, National Front and British National Party, as well as those that have a direct linear connection with them such as Britain First. Emeraude (talk) 10:21, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

It may be too vague to you, but it is the generally used term. It is necessarily vague, because unlike center or left-wing groups there is no history that ties them all together. It is like the pornography: "I know it when I see it."

And far right does not mean to the right of the Tories, but as far right as possible. In The Longue Durée of the Far-Right: An International Historical Sociology. the editors say, "the politics of the far-right extends beyond the fascist experience with respect to two other currents: those movements and ideological currents that co-existed with fascism during the inter-war era and that shared its illiberalism, anti-cosmopolitanism, extreme nationalism and visceral hostility to communism, and those social and political movements that pre-dated fascism in the late nineteenth century and were also distinguished by their 'anti-capitalist' populism, hostilty to the growth of a politicized working class and demands for an authoritarian model of politics embodied in an all-powerful, charismatic figurehead." ("What is the far right", p. 3.) And it cites the literature on the far right. I would mention too that the Ku Klux Klan, which has similarities to fascism and has over-lapping membership with neo-fascist and other right-wing groups, has its origins in American, not European, politics.

There are countless books written about the far right, e.g., Bloody Nasty People: The Rise of Britain's Far Right, The Routledge Companion to Fascism and the Far Right, The Far Right in Europe: An Encyclopedia, and The far right in western and eastern Europe, to name a few.

TFD (talk) 16:29, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

"It may be too vague to you, but it is the generally used term. It is necessarily vague...." Precisely. It's vague. We can be precise, and should be. And I have never suggested that fascism is the stop point on the right - quite the reverse: I said, "covering variously everything to the right of the Tories, including fascism". (Ku Klux Klan? What's that been dragged up for?) Emeraude (talk) 16:47, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

I oppose removing "fascism" from the infobox. The infobox of the British National Party has fascism listed - and arguably Britain First is more openly and aggressively fascist. It isn't true to suggest fascism is a purely historical Italian/German concept. AusLondonder (talk) 16:56, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

True or not, we cannot state disputed descriptions as factual. Also, it would be helpful if you could provide a source that both says Britain First (or the BNP) is fascist and explains what they mean by that. Then we can assess how that view is seen. TFD (talk) 17:59, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Disputed by.....? If true, there's no disputing? If false, that contradicts the sources. This issue has been more tha adequately covered in discussions on other fascist groups in the UK, including BNP, and what applies there is equally valid here. Emeraude (talk) 15:36, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

I don't think we've actually got a well-respected source saying flat-out that "Britain First are fascists". They have come close, that Portsmouth CC source above speculates they are de-facto fascists, but nobody is prepared to stake their reputation on putting the two things together. And if councils and newspapers pause on it, we probably should too. Perhaps I'm playing a bit too much Devil's advocate, but "I hate your religion; convert to mine immediately" (which seems to be the group's main operating method) is not quite the same as "I hate your religion; you must die" as genuine fascist organisations have done. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:29, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

What? German Nazis massacred Jews, but since when has "I hate your religion; you must die" been a prerequisite for being a "genuine" fascist? Emeraude (talk) 10:36, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

I think that if some genuine effort were made to define fascism as applied to this group, it might be more appropriate otherwise, it's simply confusing to the reader. For one thing, fascism implies socialism since every historical fascist nation has used socialism as it's foundation. Contrary to simplistic, common thought, fascism is not a rightist political ideology. Because socialism is the foundation of both communism and fascism and this group is opposed to socialism, the fascist test of this organization fails. Also, anti-Semitism is another hallmark of fascism particularly the Nazi variety. This group is neither pro-socialist or anti-Semitic so on those grounds the description of the group as fascist fails. What is it about this organization that makes it fascist? Nationalism? No, because that argument can be made in favor of most nations who have never toyed with fascism. Again, this group's fascist test fails. I would favor removal of fascism as a definition of this group until someone can make an argument supporting it's inclusion. Jtpaladin (talk) 07:51, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

The socialism=fascism theory is fringe. TFD (talk) 08:14, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

Hear, hear. And one might add that every fascist/neo-Nazi group in the UK since the '60s has described itself as "nationalist". Emeraude (talk) 09:21, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

Socialism is not fascism. @Jtpaladin: Find me a credible, reliable source stating that Jeremy Corbyn or the Labour Party are fascist. You suggest Jtpaladin that "contrary to simplistic common thought" fascism is not an ideology of the far-right. In saying that you are rejecting sources and rejecting facts. For example, the Oxford English Dictionary describes fascism as "An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organisation" and "(In general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practices" AusLondonder (talk) 19:23, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

Are you saying that you're not aware of the fact that Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany (National Socialism, I mean, it's right in their title) had socialistic economies? Collectivist or managed economies are entirely socialistic and are residents of the Left in the political spectrum. Perhaps you should consider the Wikipedia article on Nazism as a source to best address your concern. "Hitler, when asked whether he supported the 'bourgeois right-wing', claimed that Nazism was not exclusively for any class, and indicated that it favoured neither the left nor the right, but preserved 'pure' elements from both 'camps', stating: 'From the camp of bourgeois tradition, it takes national resolve, and from the materialism of the Marxist dogma, living, creative Socialism'." Hitler himself identified the Nazi Party as socialistic although taking the idea of nationalism from the Right. The Wikipedia article on Fascism says essentially the same thing. So, according to Wikipedia, Nazism and Fascism are both based on a Left-Wing economic structure. As for the Labour Party, just because you subscribe to socialism does not automatically make you a fascist. But if you're fascist in the traditional sense of the word, you are a socialist. And, if you're a socialist, you're Left of Center on the political spectrum. I hope that addressed your concerns. Jtpaladin (talk) 04:36, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

It addresses no one's concerns. It's total nonsense and without foundation. You need to explain, among other things, why your socialist Hitler annihilated Communists, Social Democrats and trade unionists, failed to nationalise banks (or any other industries), did not control industry in the war effort (as Churchill did) and attacked Russia. Sure, he made May Day a national holiday, but then he abolished the unions. Now how is that socialist? (And let's remember that he didn't name the party, it had been named before he even joined it.)Emeraude (talk) 07:18, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Jtpaladin, we have all read the theory that you support. The problem is that no reliable sources support it. Ludwig von Mises was the chief economic adviser to the Austrian fascist government. Do you think he was a socialist? Emeraude, rational arguments are ineffective in rebutting irrational views. When Hitler continued popular conservative make work projects that is evidence of his socialism, when he privatized government-owned corporations that is also evidence of socialism. He signed a treaty with the USSR because they were both socialist and broke it because they were rival socialists. TFD (talk) 17:08, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

""Collectivist or managed economies are entirely socialistic ..."

But not all socialist countries have managed economies or collectivisation. What you are describing is Communism, and though you might say that all Communists are Socialists, the reverse does not apply with Communism often being deplored by Socialists.46.7.85.68 (talk) 19:32, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

Ideology section - lengthy quotes

It would improve the Ideology section to present the group's views in sourced summary form rather than relying on lengthy quotations from group literature and websites as is done at present. Direct quotation has the advantage of representing the group's expressed views exactly, but it does rely upon individual statements made by the group at specific times, which may or may not represent the group's ideology at later times. With changes in leadership and so on, it is possible the group's views change. Summarising third party analyses of the groups's ideology may present a better overall view. MPS1992 (talk) 19:46, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

Jo Cox

The article has back going back and forwards as to whether the death of Jo Cox should be mentioned. It might help to try and reach some consensus on the talk page.

My view is that it should be included at the moment. Article traffic stats have shot up from about 650/day to 50,000. [yesterday.https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&range=latest-20&pages=Britain_First] The fact that "Britain First" was shouted is being reported by all news organisations. --Salix alba (talk): 07:51, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

Not much of a back-and-forth: User:The Almightey Drill cut a sourced overview arguing that "we don't include every man who shouted for ISIS on the ISIS article", and a couple of IPs added their own inappropriately-written, unsourced takes ("Britain first have been linked with the murder of British labour MP" and "this xenophobic group have alleged the claims for the saying, they're totally wrong") to fill the gap within the next hour, which were immediately reverted.

A sourced version was written again the next morning. The fact that Britain First have responded to the attack seems sufficient to include a mention here; if a man "shouted for ISIS" while doing something much worse than anything ISIS had ever done, and ISIS made a press statement about it, we would presumably include that in the ISIS article. --McGeddon (talk) 09:46, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

First of all, not that I have been accused, but I will say that I in no way sympathise for this group who in my personal opinion are clowns, morons. However, Wikipedia has no deadline. The suspect was caught alive and will be tried by due process. We will know his entire life story soon and if he is a member it is perhaps the most important thing to mention in this article. At the moment, these are initial reports, and as the "current" template says "Initial reports may not be reliable". There is also sub iudice concerns of what to mention and how, in order to not prejudice jurors. It might look it at the moment with all that is going on, but the world will not end tomorrow, and in time we will know exactly what to put about Britain First and this case '''tAD''' (talk) 12:05, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

The quote is an issue because people don't speak in upper or lower case. We don't know whether the witnesses, some of whom have been identified, want to be quoted as saying "Britain First" or "Britain first". BBC say "Britian first or put Britain first". Telegraph have "Britain first". Independent have "Britain First". HuffPost "Britain first". Bloomberg "Britain First". Do we put "a man shouting 'Britain First', 'Britain First' or 'put Britain first'"? '''tAD''' (talk) 12:20, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

Can I suggest that we pay heed to the sub-judice issue. As I write, no charges have actually been brought, but as soon as they are this section will need to be withdrawn until the matter has been reported in open court. What is the point of mentioning this now, when it will have to be removed imminently?46.7.85.68 (talk) 19:32, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

There is no reason to think the alleged killer was shouting the name of this group or that he had any association with it. So I would leave it out until and unless we receive new information. TFD (talk) 19:49, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

I agree with you, but my point is not whether he said it or not, but that any reference to this will have to be removed once a suspect is charged and until such times as the matter is reported in open court because it will become sub-judice.46.7.85.68 (talk) 20:03, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

However hated the party is, I don't think it is fair to link it based on the fact that he allegedly said something close to it. Unless he actually is found out as or announces himself as a member or that he is part of the party, then to keep this website non-gossiping, remove the link. In my opinion, the only reason I see that would allow a link would be if he said he learnt something from the party to commit the offence or was taught she was bad or something around the line. I think they link, but think is not definite. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DJBay123 (talk • contribs) 18:11, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Also, it is not necessary to remove the section due to British sub-judice laws because this is an American based wiki, so those laws do not apply. Varith (talk) 23:16, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

With all due respect, I think you are being a bit cavalier with comments about this being an "American based wiki". Take a look at the top of the page where "American based wiki" expresses concerns for caution because of British sub-judice laws". It may well be American based but it is used universally and I believe the ethos is reasonable respect for national laws. Do you really think that Wiki would or should say, "We can ignore British law because we are American based"? That is clearly disrespectful, and not something that Wiki is noted for.46.7.85.68 (talk) 16:23, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Anon, I am not being cavalier. Wikipedia (the physical hardware) is based in Florida and is thus subject to Florida and US law. Sub judice laws have been found unconstitutional in the US and in fact there are federal laws that specifically prohibit other countries judgements being enforced where it conflicts with the First Amendment. That law was aimed squarely at English libel laws, so US citizens and corporations are on pretty safe ground there. Of course if you live in Britain and post something that runs afoul of their laws (especially if you leave your IP hanging to the wind) then you may have some legal trouble. Not saying that the section should be left in; whether it is will be left to Wikipedia editors and not British courts.Varith (talk) 17:28, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

It's there for precisely that reason. Do we want these keyboard warriors and IP vandals to end up in jail because they've made brazen comments attrubuting guilt to people? Quite frankly no. It's merely an extension of the BLP policy. Lies are one thing, but some lies can get you arrested. '''tAD''' (talk) 19:33, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

And my comment is also there for a reason. I just want people to know that British courts do not have jurisdiction on an American website. We settled that back in 1776. Varith (talk) 13:12, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

The Sub-judice rules are a lot wider than attributing guilt. Commenting on the case other than reporting what has been said in court can get you charged with contempt. Notwithstanding that, I find it difficult to believe that there are people who think that Wiki should ignore the sub-judice merely because they can. That is disrespectful to the people who see the good sense in abiding by those laws.46.7.85.68 (talk) 17:48, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

But a much larger portion of the English speaking world has decided that sub-judice is a terrible idea. So why should this wiki disrespect them:Varith (talk) 13:28, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

I should have said, Commenting on the case other than reporting what has been said in court WHILE THE CASE IS PENDING can get you charged with contempt.46.7.85.68 (talk) 17:50, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

Only if you are within British jurisdiction. From anywhere else in the world you can say whatever you like (within the laws of your own country) Varith (talk) 13:12, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

Wiki solicits funds from all over the world. It is within the power of the UK courts, if they were to find Wiki guilty of contempt, to freeze donations from the UK until they have "purged the contempt". As long as Wiki has assets within the jurisdiction, they are far from bulletproof. Do you think a UK company with assets in the US, thinks it is beyond the jurisdiction of the US courts?46.7.85.68 (talk) 09:07, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

I removed the sub-judice warning. I am not sure why that box should even exist on wikipedia. It is not there for any other country's laws.Varith (talk) 13:46, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

The reason for the sub-judice rules in the UK, is that it is considered that a defendants right to a fair trial trumps the temporary halting of peoples right to freedom of expression that might possibly prejudice juries against the accused. If you are aware of the Avery case, you might know that the potential jury in that case were provided questionnaires and of the first hundred asked to fill these out, 99 stated before the trial that they thought he was guilty. I have to suggest that this was due to the pre-trial coverage. Verdicts being overturned on appeal because of the media causing prejudice are a very rare event in the UK. It's not that the UK are saying, "You can't comment in the media". They are saying, "You can't comment in the media until the facts are put before a jury" 46.7.85.68 (talk) 09:07, 24 June 2016 (UTC)46.7.85.68 (talk) 09:10, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

The warning - as it clearly states - is there for UK-based editors, who are legally bound by sub judice. Nick Cooper (talk) 14:37, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

The warning - as it *very* clearly states, tries to apply to all editors. Rewrite it and I will stop removing it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Varith (talk • contribs) 05:00, 22 June 2016‎

"All editors should exercise caution in editing or commenting on the topic of this article. Editors in the UK jurisdictions may also wish to consider any personal legal implications." Seems clear enough to me. Grayfell (talk) 08:41, 22 June 2016 (UTC)