Talk:Raions of Ukraine

Raion names

I suppose it's a good idea to name rural raions withot a suffix -skyi using <Center_name Raion> format (Znamianka Raion, Boryspil Raion). But for city raions that don't have formal centers, it's better to leave its adjective form ("Zhovtnevyi Raion", "Babushkinskyi Raion"). --Serhii Riabovil (talk) 07:44, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Translation

For these:

• Category:Districts of Belarus
• Category:Districts of Sofia
• Category:Districts of Latvia
• Category:Districts of Moldova
• Category:Districts of Russia by federal subject

the term "raion" is translated. Why not for Ukraine:

• Category:Raions of Ukraine

? I think this should be in English for Ukraine too. Please advise how that can be done! Aleksandr Krymsky (talk) 04:25, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

• I would also prefer to translate it. Let us take it to Wikiproject:Ukraine and mark as RFC.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:49, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

I also could not find any Chinese or Japanese terms untranslated. Kamikawa (Ishikari) District, Hokkaido not "Kamikawa Gun". Also elsewhere in Europe it is Districts of Austria, Districts of Switzerland, Districts of Norway....

The consensus in Wikipedia seems to be to use terms that are found in English language countries. Aleksandr Krymsky (talk) 23:28, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

I oppose a translation because of the following:

• The term "district" may be ambiguous and incomprehensive for the raions of Ukraine. For instance, they are usually too large compared to entities called "district" in English-speaking world;
• Local word raion is world-spread enough to become an English loanword - which it already successfully did with the humble help of Wikipedia)
• A suggested translation is hardly required (or even permitted) by WP rules, and is certainly not common here. For instance, nobody translates French Arrondissements of Paris or U.S. "counties" and "boroughs" as "districts".
• We experience a most severe lack of editors for Ukraine-related articles. Wasting our scarce efforts on replacement of a VERY widely-used "raion" term is inaccepteable(

Happy edits, my young enthusiastic friends. Ukrained2012 (talk) 11:34, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

User:Aleksandr Krymsky - you might be interested in Category talk:Districts of Belarus. Derianus (talk) 21:33, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

For these:

1. Category:Districts of Abkhazia
2. Category:Districts of Azerbaijan
3. Category:Districts of Belarus
4. Hungary: Category:Districts of Sofia
5. China: Ürümqi#Administrative_divisions, Karamay#Subdivisions
6. Category:Districts of Georgia (country)
7. Category:Districts of Latvia
8. Lithuania: district municipality = rajono savivaldybė Category:Municipalities of Lithuania
9. Category:Districts of Moldova
10. Category:Districts of South Ossetia
11. Category:Districts of Transnistria
12. Category:Districts of Russia by federal subject
13. Category:Urban districts of Ukraine

the term "raion" is translated as "district". It is not translated for:

1. the rural districts of Ukraine: Category:Raions of Ukraine

77.180.152.76 (talk) 23:26, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus there were 5 supports and 5 opposes which is too close to call. There might a case per WP:COMMONNAME but there was not enough evidence presented. To really decide this some more analysis of what these places are commonly called in reliable sources is needed. The google search was a little bit too blunt a tool decide this. Salix (talk): 18:45, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

---

Raions of Ukraine → Districts of Ukraine – Rename to a word more common in the English language. It seems to be standard in Wikipedia. See above. See also Talk:Cherkasy Raion#Requested move Relisted. BDD (talk) 20:18, 28 February 2013 (UTC) Aleksandr Krymsky (talk) 23:37, 15 February 2013 (UTC) UPDATE: The proposal did not include the move of the individual articles. A proposal to move them is at: Talk:Cherkasy Raion#Requested move. Aleksandr Krymsky (talk) 06:03, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

• Support, I can not find any previous discussions; districts of Russia are districts.--Ymblanter (talk) 23:39, 15 February 2013 (U
• Oppose, unless there is foundation for common use in english to refer to them as districts. Also, if we do this, why not rename oblasts to provinces while we're at it?--Львівське (говорити) 00:14, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
  • • We are not "at it". If we are, than we're done with working on more important Ukraine articles. Ukrained2012 (talk) 03:05, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
  • There is use of "district" documented at Talk:Cherkasy Raion. Aleksandr Krymsky (talk) 05:57, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
    • "Documented"? Would you mind elaborating it with diff links? Ukrained2012 (talk) 03:05, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
      • There is one google link containing the word district. I think you are able to locate it. Aleksandr Krymsky (talk) 05:16, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
• Support, for the sake of consistency. But please make sure that redirects with the term Raion also exist for all these articles, as:

• 1) the word raion is often used, even in English, to refer to these districts of Russian speaking countries. I have heard this many times
• 2) the whole thing, e.g. Cherkasy Raion, may be considered by some people a name, i.e. the "raion" bit being part of the same (something like the famous example Washington DC).

So, I support this, but all the redirects with Raion must also exist.

@Львівське: I think this discussion is not the same as the Oblast/Province discussion. Mainly for 3 reasons:

• Just like the US has states and Canada has provinces, Ukraine has oblasts
• I reckon this is ok for first-level divisions (province, state, oblast..), but then at second level it becomes too much, so it makes sense to unify something like a "district" across many countries.
• If we renamed oblasts to provinces, we would have a problem for example in Russia, where some federal subjects are oblasts, but others are krais, others are republics, others are okrugs and others are federal cities. Can you imagine the mess?

Hope this helps. Cheers, Azylber (talk) 03:58, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, of course redirects should be kept. The proposal did not include the move of the individual articles. A proposal to move them is at: Talk:Cherkasy Raion#Requested move. Aleksandr Krymsky (talk) 05:59, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

• Support WP:JARGON, use the English general term -- 65.92.180.137 (talk) 04:54, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. Being one of the few who supports WP:UKRAINE, I agree with them. Converting every single instance and moving every single page from "raion" to "district" would be a huge waste of time. Particularly since almost every article links to a "raion-named" page.. Just like mentioned above by Ukrained2012, France has articles such as Arrondissements of Paris and they are not translated into "Districts of Paris," etc. Raion is a loanword and it can be used on Wikipedia as such. It doesn't hurt anything to use the native variant versus the English-language one. If we use "oblast," we might as well use the "raion" variant as well. It has been fine for the past 8 years, why change anything right now? DDima 17:16, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

It has been wrong for 8 years. Contrary to what you say it is easy to move the articles. Not sure why France gets a special treatment. But that is no excuse and a valid reason either. See the following sets from Europe and Asia (ex-Soviet Union bold):

1. Districts of Albania
2. Districts of Afghanistan
3. Districts of Austria
4. Districts of Azerbaijan (rayon)
5. Districts of Bangladesh
6. Districts of Bhutan
7. Districts of Brunei
8. Districts of Burma
9. Districts of Cambodia
10. Districts of China
11. Districts of the Czech Republic (okres)
12. Districts of Georgia (country) (formerly, translation from raion)
13. Districts of Iran
14. Districts of Iraq (qadaa)
15. Districts of Israel
16. Districts of Japan
17. Districts of Kazakhstan (audan, Russ. rayon)
18. Districts of Kuwait
19. Districts of Kyrgyzstan (район/raion)
20. Districts of Latvia (formerly, translated from rajons)
21. Districts of Laos
22. Districts of Lebanon (qadaa)
23. Districts of Luxembourg
24. Districts of Malaysia
25. Districts of Moldova (raion)
26. Districts of Mongolia (set article, individual articles unnamed/not existent)
27. Districts of Nepal
28. Districts of Norway (set)
29. Districts of Pakistan
30. Districts of Portugal
31. Category:Districts of Russia by federal subject (raion)
32. Districts of Serbia (okruz)
33. Districts of Sri Lanka
34. Districts of Slovakia (okres)
35. Districts of Syria (mintaqah)
36. Districts of Switzerland
37. Districts of Tajikistan (nohiya or Russian: rayon)
38. Districts of Thailand
39. Districts of Turkey (ilçe, no district articles)
40. Districts of Turkmenistan (etrap)
41. Districts of Uzbekistan (tuman, karakalpak rayon)
42. Districts of Vietnam
43. Districts of Yemen (muderiah)

• • • I hate being critical, but here you're just throwing few dozen country links at us. What you should do instead is to provide us with a substantiated proof that administrative units in all those very different countries function the same way the raions do in Ukraine. Or, that Wikipedia has adopted a single guideline on districts naming worldwide. I'm afraid nobody is going to provide that proof for you. Ukrained2012 (talk) 03:14, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

But most importantly

• https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Brody+district%22 - 40,100 results
• https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Brody+raion%22 - 13,100 filled with Wikipedia.

and even stronger within Ukraine, filtering out many non-English languages:

• https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Brody+district%22+site%3Aua 2,040 results
• https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Brody+raion%22+site%3Aua - 11 results Aleksandr Krymsky (talk) 19:13, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

• • • Young man, Google search results do not indicate words usage for the purposes of applying those words in Wikipedia. Just so you know) Ukrained2012 (talk) 03:05, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose as explained in the section above. Happy edits, Ukrained2012 (talk) 03:05, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
• Support per WP:COMMONNAME. "District" seems to be more commonly used in English sources [1] vs [2].--Staberinde (talk) 17:40, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose as per arguments made by Ukrained2012. In addition to his comments on Google hits, I'd also point out that the name should be that which is used in the majority of reliable references. The terms used in the list of countries provided include disparate types of division. In some of the countries listed above (e.g. Israel), they are first level divisions, in others (e.g. Pakistan) second level. Using one English term for all loses precision. Note also that in parallel to the French arrondissements, there are many other types of division that are best not translated from the local names e.g. while Pakistan and Bangladesh are included in the list of countries that have 'districts', there is no mention of the 'tehsil' or 'taluk' subdivisions of these districts. Precision in naming is useful. Imc (talk) 13:21, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
  • The administrative level does not make WP:UE inapplicable. Aleksandr Krymsky (talk) 05:14, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. Why change a settled thing? LCS check (talk) 17:36, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Your question implies the untrue. The "thing" is not settled. It is jargon for years. See the list above how the English Wikipedia is doing the naming for other such sets. Aleksandr Krymsky (talk) 05:14, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
    • Settled, I mean, as with the foundations of a house. Long done this way. LCS check (talk) 20:27, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
• Support Compare to the recent outcome at Talk:Districts of Kyrgyzstan (formerly Raions). In the spirit of WP:UE, I don't think "raion" is a word most readers will have encountered. If you're familiar with Eastern Europe, it may seem simple, just as I'm familiar with the Länder of Germany, and indeed know their native German names better than the English forms. Here, "Districts" is unambiguous, recognizable, and accurate. It's a great fit for WP:CRITERIA. --BDD (talk) 17:56, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Statistics for sets:

• Rayons translated as district: 9
• Rayons not translated: 1

Please go and apply WP:UE to the Ukraine set too. Aleksandr Krymsky (talk) 05:14, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Closing contested

1. "LCS check" made a meaningless oppose comment ("Why change a settled thing?"). That is not a way to properly discuss. Facts for /why/ to do it have been presented.
2. Other opposing user wrote: "huge waste of time" - that again is not a counter argument if WP policies have to be applied. Instead it should be said, why - based on policies - the current name should be kept.
3. To the contrary, the supporters cited policies, WP:UE, WP:COMMONNAME and made an analysis of how the naming is done for other sets of subdivisions. Aleksandr Krymsky (talk) 01:13, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

• True. I am a bit disappointed that this was not done, even though the people who opposed it failed to come up with strong reasons to oppose it. What can we do now? Azylber (talk) 02:03, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

As I tried to indicate in the closing comment. The next step is to examine reliable English language sources to find out which is the most prevalent usage. I looked at the various google results which were messy. For example in [3] many sources used of districts in a more general sense.--Salix (talk): 07:23, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

• I suggest we put this naming aside and rather work on writing articles as we came here to do. A name is a name, what difference does it make? I'd rather have good content and a different name rather than poor content and the "correct name" (depending what side you are on...) I suggest you divert your efforts elsewhere rather than attempting to change a settled thing, wasting time moving articles of raion to district. DDima 20:37, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

I’d like to point out that raion/rayon/rajon and oblast are English words, in use since the early 19th century. They are defined in the OED 3rd ed., and not noted as unnaturalized foreign terms. “District” is a convenient gloss to explain raion. But when raions and oblasti are discussed in a broader historical, geographic, or political context, where they may be mentioned alongside autonomous republics, krais, okrugs, selyshches, selos, SMTs, SNPs, etc., then the use of district in isolation could be too vague and potentially confusing. It is not only easily mistaken for some other of the many administrative levels, but for a non-specific area in the generic sense. —Michael Z. 2013-07-13 23:42 z

Renaming into Districts of Ukraine

We live in the country not kraia, city not misto, district not raion! Please, rename this article into Districts of Ukraine. It's official term used by Ukrainian media and government. Raion is incorrect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kolomiychuk (talk • contribs) 06:16, 20 July 2015 (UTC)