Talk:2017 Washington train derailment

Cause

Given the engineer's statement, can we state the cause as "Excessive speed on curve due to loss of situational awareness"? Mjroots (talk) 06:17, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

I think it's best to leave out any determination of cause until an official statement is given by the NTSB. Closetsingle (talk) 23:19, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

Third victim: Benjamin Gran

I added a reference to this person. His case became well-publicized by the news media. http://komonews.com/news/local/mom-says-son-killed-in-amtrak-crash-had-turned-his-life-completely-around 2601:1C2:4E02:3020:A983:F192:A06B:1725 (talk) 23:13, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Not PTC? Not ATC?

The article in the Derailment section, states that PTC was not installed on that route. But it does not refer to ATC, whether it was installed or not, or whether it was active or not. When we see events involving (American) train incidents, we often see reference to the fact that PTC (the newer system) was not installed. But, my understanding is that in most cases, ATC (the older system) would also have prevented the problem, had it been operational. These weren't new tracks, it was merely a new route for a specific Amtrak line. Presumably some sort of automatic system was already installed? 2601:1C2:4E02:3020:4146:2231:C4F1:8E76 (talk) 17:35, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes, you're right, there is no mention of Automatic train control. Do you have any source that shows its status relevant to this accident? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:24, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

I did a Google search for 'washington train derailment atc', and the first relevant result referring to ATC was http://katu.com/news/investigators/positive-train-control-not-ready-on-any-amtrak-cascades-trains-still-in-works-on-trimet  ; another result was somewhere inside: http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2017/12/19-analysis-early-observations-on-the-amtrak-cascades-derailment  ; http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2017/12/18-amtrak-cascades-train-derails-onto-washington-highway 2601:1C2:4E02:3020:4146:2231:C4F1:8E76 (talk) 06:32, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

OK, so the first source says this;

"In 2008, York said TriMet installed a system called automatic train control (ATC) on the WES line that performs a similar function around curves and bridges.

"ATC, along with our cab signal system effectively ensures an accident similar to the recent over-speed derailment is extremely unlikely to happen," York explained. "The cab signal system automatically limits speeds in most locations."

And the second source says this:

"ATC is an overlay system to cab signals. They don't exist on this line, therefore no ATC possible. The lack of PTC is not Amtrak's fault; it must be installed first by the owner road, which in this case is either BNSF or UP, not sure which."

But that second one is just a public chat board and so is not usable here. Does anyone else have anything relevant? Martinevans123 (talk) 08:00, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

It's unlikely that ATC would be installed on this section of track, since it has been out of use for some time. There is little incentive to install an older system when the newer system is available. ATC is far more common on the East Coast, especially the NEC. It is true that wayside PTC equipment is the responsibility of the operating RR (who owns the tracks), but it is the responsibility of the owner of the locomotive to install the onboard equipment, which is what actually does the stopping. Closetsingle (talk) 18:38, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

Can't see the sense in your comment. First sentence: Does ATC hardware simply rust, or melt away, when it's not used? And how do you know it was "out of use for some time"? Cite some source for this. Second sentence: I am not suggesting that they failed to install the ATC system: It was either there, or not there. These were old tracks. As far as I know, they were used previously. And it isn't clear that PTC was "available". In so many of these accidents, PTC wasn't actually available; it might have been years away from installation. You need to clarify what you meant. 2601:1C2:4E02:3020:4146:2231:C4F1:8E76 (talk) 16:49, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Follow WP:BRD (Bold, Revert, and Discuss): Someone is trying to remove references to Benjamin Gran, who died in the accident.

An editor is failing to follow the WP policy: WP:BRD. He started, by deleting (reverting) a reference to one of the three people who died on this accident. That sounds relevant. He restored, without engaging in any sort of discussion on this Talk Page. My position is that in an accident where only three people died, and two of them are specifically mentioned, there is nothing wrong with mentioning the third. In fact, do a Google Search for Benjamin Gran, and you see at least hundreds of relevant references. There is nothing wrong, too, with naming the other victims and why they were there. (Rail fans, apparently.) 2601:1C2:4E02:3020:4146:2231:C4F1:8E76 (talk) 16:56, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

No reference was removed. Uncited negative information about a recently-deceased person that had nothing to do with the accident was correctly reverted.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:59, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

[edit conflict] I will make it explicit: I am accusing both SounderBruce and SarekofVulcan of "tag-teaming" the removal of correct and relevant material in the article. Moreover, both of them refuse and fail to use this Talk page to discuss the issue, a serious violation of WP:BRD. On his Talk page, SarekofVulcan falsely invoked WP:BLP, despite the fact that the person mentioned, Benjamin Gran, is now dead. While a few exceptions exist that would apply WP:BLP, the material that was previously present was neither "contentious" nor "questionable". Benjamin Gran was neither a suicide, nor was he alleged to have done anything to cause or exacerbate the rail accident in question. WP:BLP simply doesn't apply. SarekofVulcan seems to be simply inventing a rule that doesn't exist: He said, "Uncited negative information about a recently-deceased person that had nothing to do with the accident was correctly reverted." If his objection is that there was no reference given, he should say so and not object when somebody returns it with a reference. 2601:1C2:4E02:3020:4146:2231:C4F1:8E76 (talk) 18:09, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

I will cite a couple of examples about WP'S handling of victims of transportation accidents. First, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ValuJet_Flight_592 cites two victims, San Diego "Chargers running back Rodney Culver and his wife and Songwriter and musician Walter Hyatt", and in fact lists them all through a CNN reference. And in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Philadelphia_train_derailment , the article not only names eight victims killed, but in fact names their employers and institutions they were associated with. (facts which SarekofVulcan would call "that had nothing to do with the accident".) Likewise, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Hoboken_train_crash , which identified the one death as "attorney Fabiola Bittar de Kroon, 34, a married mother of one and native of Brazil who had recently moved to Hoboken.[14][15] The majority of those injured were passengers on the crashed train.[13". Evidently, WP has a policy completely consistent with identifying and describing not only the victims, but facts as simple as seemingly unrelated as those. I suggest that the study of this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rail_accidents_(2010%E2%80%93present) will show clearly that the identity and other information about victims is routinely published in WP. 2601:1C2:4E02:3020:4146:2231:C4F1:8E76 (talk) 19:34, 17 May 2018 (UTC)