Talk:Neil deGrasse Tyson

Rape allegations

No mention of the several rape allegations going back decades? I'd say that alone makes him a controversial figure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.172.115.210 (talk) 01:55, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes, there is no mention of rape allegations. This would be hard to do because there is possibly no media coverage of the allegations. It is general media practice to not mention scandalous allegations unless the accused denies it, police get involved, or a high-profile third party makes a public big deal about it.

Here is the only first-person source I found with Google:

*End the Silence, End the Violence Chapter 6: Austin, Texas 1983-1984: I Survived RAPE by Neil de Grasse Tyson; The Blue Lotus Speaks!

Reading this, it is easy to see why the media would want to stay out of this. However, if there was a comedian or other high=profile third party that made a big issue about it, like with Crosby, then it could become something. At this point I think Wikipedians should table this and wait. Perhaps in a couple years there will be more, or perhaps not. If there is more, put it on the main page, otherwise, leave it out.

--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 05:09, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

I note that that was published back in 2014 and it sounds like nothing came of it, possibly illustrating why allegations of serious criminal offences are best made to the police rather than to astrology blogs. I certainly agree that we should leave this out unless some actual reliable sources ever pick it up. --DanielRigal (talk) 12:04, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

It's frankly ridiculous that Tchiya Amet's accusation isn't covered. It was clearly credible, and I think its absence reflects badly on the Wikipedia community. Now there are two new accusations: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/nosacredcows/2018/11/two-more-women-accuse-neil-degrasse-tyson-of-sexual-misconduct/ Owen (talk) 00:36, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

Nothing has been published in reliable sources or mentioned here yet, so of course it's not going to be covered. Kingofaces43 (talk) 01:40, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

By reliable sources you mean major news outlets like CNN? Tyson has been the go to science guy for many of these organizations. Publishing unflattering stuff about Tyson would make talking heads like Fareed Zakaria look foolish. So these outlets have a motive to bury this story. I believe this is why Tyson's false histories rarely get much attention. Although there are a few exceptions. I give Jonathan Adler of the Washington Post some credit for calling out Tyson's falsehoods.HopDavid (talk) 14:29, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

It appears the source provided is a blog by a person with one blog post. I could not find this story on any RS, but did find the story was on numerous conspiracy sites, like the white supremacist site Stormfront. Frankly, I think even mentioning this on the TP is a WP:BLP violation. O3000 (talk) 14:42, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

I wish I could say I was surprised. --DanielRigal (talk) 15:21, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

The Washington Post is reliable but you are not pointing us at any specific articles. Is there anything specific there which we should be considering as reference material for these accusations? If so, please provide links and we can take a look.

OK. I admit that I am being a bit underhand here. You see, I already Googled for "+"Jonathan Adler", +"Neil deGrasse Tyson", +"Washington post"" and all I found was a spat over Tyson misstating or misremembering something that GWB maybe did or did not say. I see nothing about any rape allegations at all apart from a Reddit thread which, of course, is of absolutely no use to us at all. While Adler has been critical of Tyson in some respects what I do not see the slightest trace of is him giving any mention, never mind any credence, to these or any other rape allegations. We must be careful not to attribute reporting of these allegations to him if he has not done so! That could create trouble both for him and for Wikipedia.

Also, I don't buy your idea that a media organisation has an incentive to cover up. If anything, the incentive for media organisations is to distance themselves from anybody who is even potentially tainted as fast as possible to avoid reputational damage to the wider organisation. There is no point in getting into a conspiracy theorist's mindset where the lack of smoke is taken as sure proof that somebody is covering up a fire. Once you start to think like that everybody is automatically assumed guilty of a conspiracy to commit everything even before anybody suggests who or what it might involve. So, yeah. I'm pretty sure that there is no here here. But if you have anything in WP:RS to show otherwise then feel free to prove me wrong. --DanielRigal (talk) 15:21, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

Daniel Rigal writes "and all I found was a spat over Tyson misstating or misremembering something that GWB maybe did or did not say." There's no question it's a misquote. Tyson amitted his account of Bush's 9-11 speech was wrong and apologized to Bush. No reasonable person can argue that Bush sought to "distinguish we from they" in his 9-11 speech. Bush's actual speech was a call for tolerance and inclusion.

Besides Adler's "Tyson admits he botched Bush quote", Adler also wrote "What makes an accusation Wiki-worthy" where he talks about Wikipedia actively censoring criticisms of Tyson. It's not far fetched to imagine other information sources also buried this legitimate criticism of Tyson.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/09/27/neil-degrasse-tyson-admits-he-botched-bush-quote/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/09/24/what-makes-an-accusation-wiki-worthy/

This isn't some alt right blog, mind you. this is the Washington Post.

Daniel Rigal writes "I see nothing about any rape allegations at all "

Straw man. I remain agnostic on whether Tyson is or isn't a rapist. I'm saying the outlets Wikipedia calls "Reliable Sources" seem disinclined to run stories that may harm someone they've been putting on a pedestal for decades.

The Bush and Star Names story isn't the only demonstrably false story Tyson has told. Another one: Tyson tells a story how a friend asked Newton about elliptical orbits. Newton goes home and invents integral and differential calculus. And then comes back two months later with the answer. and then Newton turns 26. Well, any child using Google can easily verify that Halley asked the famous question about elliptical orbits when Newton was 41. Newton came back two years later with the rough draft for Principia. Halley published Principia when Newton was 45. Plus Newton got much of his calculus from his instructor Isaac Barrow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=danYFxGnFxQ

https://thonyc.wordpress.com/2017/06/14/why-doesnt-he-just-shut-up/

Wikipedia is a supposedly neutral information source. But look through the Wikipedia Tyson article and you'll see glowing admiration for this controversial figure from start to finish. The only mildly critical part is where the article notes he failed at his first attempt at a doctorate. There's nothing about the bad history he uses to support his political talking points. There's nothing about his botching basic math and science. And there's nothing about allegations of sexual misconduct.

Actually I'm hoping this Wikipedia article doesn't change. The longer Wikipedia censors criticisms of Tyson, the less credible it becomes. It reinforces Wikipedia's reputation as a source of misinformation.HopDavid (talk) 16:48, 30 November 2018 (UTC)