Talk:Anti-Russian violence in Chechnya (1991–1994)

Okay. This is problematic.

@Willbb234: This article needs sourcing and it needs it bad. You don't want to ascribe crimes against humanity to a nation without intense sourcing. I also feel strongly about the importance of finding some neutral editors with established active accounts dating back before let's say ~2015 to establish that this is the basis of something encyclopedic. To be crystal clear I'm not implying this isn't a truthful article, I'm implying it's a fricken hot potato of a subject right now. Could you get an RfC going?Jasphetamine (talk) 18:30, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

@Jasphetamine: I don't know if you knew, but I didn't write this article. What would the RfC be on? Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 18:57, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Yeah @Willbb234: didn't assume you wrote it just assumed since you filed the GOCE request you had some vested interest in it. Anyway what I'm going to do is pester someone who has all the answers and hopefully a few spare minutes.

@Miniapolis: Hey -- terribly sorry to bother you, but I want to be extra sure GOCE is meant to fix... what I would describe as a barely sourced machine translated NPOV-violation about atrocities committed in the former Soviet bloc. If not, do I just blanket this thing in templates about its flaws? It's such dicey subject matter. Jasphetamine (talk) 19:10, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

@Jasphetamine: cheers, good to see we're on the same page now. I came across the article while WP:NPPing so have no interest in the subject itself. Oh, and copyediting isn't about fixing lack of citations, so it's best to just tag/remove the content, which is what I normally do. Thanks for the time, Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 19:22, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

The person who wrote this who you are looking for is User:Mark Ekimov. Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 19:24, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Yea, the issue isn't whether I should personally fix citations, but rather that I am able to and would be fine with making a poorly cited article style compliant if it was about maybe some obscure woodworking technique or something, but this isn't that. Know what I mean? Thanks for the reference to the author, I'll follow that up. Jasphetamine (talk) 20:05, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

• Chiming in to second Jasphetamine's concerns. There's a lot of bad OR, indirect contradiction of other articles on related subjects that seem better written. A Google Scholar search for "ethnic cleansing in Chechnya" only returns results about Soviet policies during the Stalin years, in direct contradiction of this article's current assertion that incidents during the Soviet years were merely "deportation" not ethnic cleansing (never mind that Ethnic cleansing lists deportation as a possible method in its lead). _signed, Rosguill ^talk 22:08, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

  I've done a bit more research and have at least found evidence in a reliable source that ethnic cleansing of Russian civilians did occur in the 1990s in Chechnya ([1]). That doesn't absolve this article of all of its issues, but I'm leaning against WP:TNT given that this does seem to be a real historical event. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 23:01, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

I would back taking to AfD on the grounds of TNT. Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 23:17, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

I've made some progress on the article and honestly think it's salvageable. At this point, I've come across enough evidence in RS that ethnic cleansing against Russians did occur in Chechnya following the collapse of the USSR. I think that if we keep removing undue quotes and OR, and add some information about Russian actions in the Chechen Wars (as well as a section on Soviet actions in the 1940s, and anti-Soviet actions by Chechen nationalists in the 40s and 80s), the article will be halfway decent. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 00:44, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Okay, knowing that would you prefer me throwing cute needed and clarify tags on suspect info while working on the style, or kill off the sentence and let you find it in the diffs? If I don’t hear back I’ll assume the former as it’s less destructive. Jasphetamine (talk) 02:21, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Jasphetamine, I think this depends on the claim. That having been said, my experience going through the first half of the article was that rather than strictly missing citations, the article is largely just leaning improperly on primary sources. So if you see something that's cited to an eye witness without clear justification from a secondary source, feel free to delete. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 06:04, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

(←) Well, I wish someone had commented on the GOCE's talk pages about the c/e request. We've declined the request for now; please feel free to relist it once it's rewritten, properly cited, stable and neutral. See the discussion at REQ Talk (current version) as of my timestamp. Cheers, Baffle☿gab 20:18, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

"Former Soviet- republics"

Should this become "Post Soviet nation" "post Soviet state" or something more specific? Not all regions of the USSR became republics in a strict sense of the world. Jasphetamine (talk) 02:49, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sure which parts of the article you're referring to exactly, but in my experience, the phrase "former Soviet republic" generally refers to regions that were formerly republics in the Soviet Union (e.g. Lithuanian Soviet Socialist Republic, Armenian Soviet Socialist Republic, etc.). To my knowledge, many minority ethnic regions of Russia are still organized this way (Chechnya's formal name, for instance, is the Chechen Republic, Чеченская Республика). _signed, Rosguill ^talk 06:07, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Work

Jasphetamine, Rosguill is this complete? The tag is still up, not sure if you were planning on continuing? Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 16:39, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Willbb234, the issues with the article remain. I don't know how much I'll be able to commit to making further improvements in the coming days. If Jasphetamine is not going to actively contribute this week, then I think that the "under construction" notice can be taken down. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 17:16, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Renaming article

The whole article cannot be accepted in the version it is today. It is bellow Wikipedia's standards. I suggest renaming it to either "Anti-Russian sentiment in Chechnya 1991-1994" or "De-Russificiation of Chechnya 1991-1994".
Just take the sources: we mostly have only Russian-government owned websites like RIA, Rossiyskaya Gazeta and Zvezda.ru, or Ozon.ru, an online retail company. Insufficient. What are some reliable (preferably English) sources that confirm the term ethnic cleansing? The whole article just seems to have taken over all the propaganda from the Russian Wikipedia article without checking or reviewing these claims and subjecting them to scrutiny. Unless the article is rewritten into a decent shape, it should be drastically altered.--3E1I5S8B9RF7 (talk) 15:38, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

3E1I5S8B9RF7 yes it should be and I agree. As you can see above, attempts have been made to change this article, but I think a more forceful approach is needed. Regards, Willbb234^Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 16:21, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

I would advocate for Anti-Russian violence in Chechnya (1991–1994) as a new title. Merely describing it as sentiment ignores that we do have RS (e.g. [2]) that confirm that violence occurred. I also generally dislike terms like De-[ethnic group]-ification because when used in academic literature such terms usually have more nuance than just "violence and/or persecution directed toward that demographic", so unless we specifically have sources calling it "De-Russification" I would stay away from that term. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 19:10, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

I would agree renaming it to "Anti-Russian violence in Chechnya (1991–1994)".--3E1I5S8B9RF7 (talk) 10:13, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Status of work on this thing?

Reads better and I think the new page title is excellent but there's still just an overwhelming lack of citations. Would this subject be better served by finding an appropriate subject to merge it with? That'd allow for the subject matter to remain on Wikipedia but with a greatly reduced word count. Jasphetamine (talk) 23:42, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

A proposition for a merger with the Russophobia article, or deleting this one and merging it's NPOV contents with other relevant articles

I'm seeing similar problems that other Wikipedians have already pointed out( @Willbb234: @Jasphetamine: ). I'm proposing this article for a merger with the Russophobia article, or deleting this one and integrating what it contains of NPOV content into the Russophobia article. The contents of this article are already covered in at least two other separate articles, in the Minorities section of the Chechen republic of Ichkeria article, and under the North Caucasus section of the Russophobia article. This article does also not meet the Wikipedia criteria for NPOV, it relies almost exclusively on Russian state connected media outlets(RIA novosti, Izvestiya, Itar-tass etc.) Alfred Koch in the 2000s was at the forefront of Gazprom media's takeover of NTV(one of Russia's independently controlled media outlets at the time), he's also quoted in the article as an authority on the "ethnic cleansing of Russians from Chechnya". The emigration/cleansing of Serbs from Kosovo does not have it's own article yet it is covered in the demographics section of the Kosovo article, I am proposing a similar solution in this case. What are your thoughts fellow Wikipedians. Sextus Caedicius (talk) 15:56, 3 June 2020 (UTC)Sextus Caedicius

Questionable article

This whole article is very questionable with questionable sources (Russian media?).