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Talk:2021 Israel–Palestine crisis

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Durdyfiv1 (talk | contribs) at 14:14, 11 May 2021 (→‎Lede: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Merging

With another page about the 2021 Jerusalem clashes, I think this page should merge with that one as to not cause confusion and possible misinformation. Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 20:38, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry wrong page, remove reply Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 20:38, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've marked the other article as redirect. Feel free to copy from history. Thanks. ─ The Aafī on Mobile (talk) 22:10, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Timeline of events

This is not directed to any editor in particular, but I wanted to show what I think is a good summary of events, both for the background and the timeline. Also it looks impartial. In my humble opinion, the events in Sheikh Jarrah with the evictions are just excuses, or at least not the main reason for the unrest. The main reason for what's happening is the decision by Abbas to postpone Palestinian elections because he knew he would lose, which angered Hamas and now both sides in the Palestinian political arena (Hamas and Fatah) are using Israel as a scapegoat to advance their respective agendas, which is one of disturbance but without reaching a full-scale war.--SoaringLL (talk) 00:15, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I understand that is your opinion, but without a source it is WP:OR. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 08:53, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Agence France-Presse have an article here suggesting that Abbas "has drawn the ire of some protesters" and that "some east Jerusalem protesters have branded Abbas as a 'traitor'".
However, I would prefer to see a reliable source explicitly link the protestors motivations to the election postponement. It seems more likely that this would be a secondary cause than a main though. RoanokeVirginia (talk) 12:07, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Confirmation needed on Times of Israel source

I'm getting paywalled from checking this source, which currently verifies the sentence "Palestinian crowds threw stones, lit fires, chanted "Strike Tel Aviv" and "Jews, remember Khaybar, the army of Muhammad is returning", paraded Hamas flags and tore down police barricades on the mount.". Can someone check to make sure that info is indeed in the source? Thanks. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 14:35, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Prose of the article is very short, but contains:
  • "Palestinian demonstrators also light a trash can on fire on Salah al-Din Street near the Damascus Gate as clashes with police intensify."
  • "“Strike Tel Aviv,” they chant. “In spirit and in blood, we will redeem al-Aqsa.”"
and a link to this tweet. Dat GuyTalkContribs 19:33, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
So no "Jews, remember Khaybar, the army of Muhammad is returning"? I'm removing that part. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 21:06, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Here is the link to the chant "Jews, remember Khaybar, the army of Muhammad is returning" whilst holding Hamas flags. Quote will be reverted. JoshRichards98 (talk) 21:48, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
So you added a quote without a source, based on a video you heard somewhere, and then linked to a paywalled story hoping it wouldn't be challenged. Would it have been more beneficial for the reader to add a link simply saying "Dude, trust me?" Always cite sources, especially with controversial topics such as this. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 21:20, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Aplogies this is an honest mistake and must have accidentally deleted the second source after formatting, however, are you sure the article is paywalled, as it is appearing fine with no restrictions currently? JoshRichards98 (talk) 21:48, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You are correct, and I apologize. The article was shorter than I expected and ended with an advertisement (in yellow), making me think it was paywalled. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 22:25, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Suggested Move

Change this title to 2021 Israeli–Palestinian clashes because the clashes occurred in Jerusalem and Gaza Strip.Cerberon-900 (talk) 18:40, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The wave of attacks against Haredi looking Jews had predated the ruling and should be added to the background

The Background ignore the two weeks of violance by Palestinains which was targeted against mostly Haredi looking just a few examples [1][2][3][4][5][6] [7][8][9] At some point it was even described as TikTok Intefada [10] where Palestians would attack Jews and then upload this to TikTok[11], by Ignoring these waves of attacks the articale make it look as if it was appear out of thin air.

While that may be true, twitter is not a source that can be used to justify additions to this or any page as a rule. Wikipedia guidelines prefer to uphold what it views as 'reliability' even if that comes at the cost of factuality. Bgrus22 (talk) 00:24, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Even if you do not like the twitter footage, there are many other sources that describe it and even court rullings which I had linked in my comment. Out of 11 refernces you had only three twitter links 2A00:C281:1804:4500:7093:17CA:887E:BFDD (talk) 00:28, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://www.kikar.co.il/389818.html
  2. ^ https://www.kikar.co.il/389946.html
  3. ^ https://news.walla.co.il/item/3429569
  4. ^ https://www.bhol.co.il/news/1212534
  5. ^ https://twitter.com/tzvisuccot/status/1382769769049427970?s=20
  6. ^ https://twitter.com/i/status/1386015290518032387
  7. ^ https://twitter.com/ariel_elharar_/status/1384513388378742784?s=20
  8. ^ https://www.hakolhayehudi.co.il/item/security/%D7%A0%D7%94%D7%92_%D7%90%D7%95%D7%98%D7%95%D7%91%D7%95%D7%A1_%D7%A2%D7%A8%D7%91%D7%99_%D7%A9%D7%AA%D7%A7%D7%A3_%D7%91%D7%97%D7%95%D7%A8_%D7%97%D7%A8%D7%93%D7%99__-_%D7%AA%D7%A7%D7%A3_%D7%90%D7%93%D7%9D_%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%A3
  9. ^ https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/rkpq7Xmwd
  10. ^ https://www.mako.co.il/news-israel/2021_q2/Article-6d30fe9b485e871027.htm
  11. ^ https://www.mako.co.il/news-israel/2021_q2/Article-6d30fe9b485e871027.htm
I am not disagreeing on the merits of those, but the twitter sources could not be a basis is all I am saying. Bgrus22 (talk) 10:00, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Factual error in the lead

The lead says "and over 20 Palestinians being killed" yet , they had been killed in Gaza after Gaza rocket attacks triggered an Israeli retalitation (from the article itself). The same should be put in the casualty box

Missing attribution for EU response

It should be added in the EU Forigen Affair message requested to stop Jewish worshippers from accessing an esplanade the full text is "The situation with regard to the evictions of Palestinian families in Sheikh Jarrah and other areas of East Jerusalem is a matter of serious concern. I want to repeat what we have already been saying: Such actions are illegal under international humanitarian law and only serve to fuel tensions on the ground. It is important that everything possible will be done to avoid fuelling tensions. And we note that the decision to stop Jewish worshippers from accessing the esplanade is a positive one that can calm the situation." [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:C281:1804:4500:7093:17CA:887E:BFDD (talk) 00:45, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://eeas.europa.eu/headquarters/headquarters-homepage/98259/foreign-affairs-council-press-remarks-high-representative-josep-borrell_en

Lynch attempt should be added to clashes

The Lynch attempt [1] should be added to the clashes part. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:C281:1804:4500:7093:17CA:887E:BFDD (talk) 00:56, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Or how another source describes it as Israeli settler runs over Palestinians in occupied East Jerusalem. Regardless, I dont think that merits mention here. nableezy - 02:20, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/palestinian-youth-injured-in-car-crash-in-old-city-riot-667743

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 May 2021

(Add to international reactions)

 Germany – Foreign Minister Heiko Maas said via Twitter that "all sides have a duty to prevent further civilian casualties", and condemned the use of rocket fire on Israeli civilians.[1] Mr. Lechkar (talk) 03:29, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Heiko Maas [@HeikoMaas] (10 May 2021). "Raketenbeschuss auf die israelische Zivilbevölkerung ist durch nichts zu rechtfertigen - und erst recht kein Beitrag zur Lösung des Konflikts, sondern sinnlose neue Eskalation. Alle Seiten stehen in der Pflicht, weitere Opfer unter Zivilisten zu verhindern" (Tweet) – via Twitter.
 Not done for now: We should be working off secondary source coverage of statements, not primary sources like tweets. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:58, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Clashes"

Several prominent figures have criticized the usage of the word "clashes" in relation to this incident, calling it non-neutral: "This is not a "clash" between two equal sides. This is a straightforward attack by Israel on Palestinians." As of right now, this is the term used by the title of this article. Should it be changed? I want to hear some input first. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 05:28, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Seems like that's what all the references sources call it. No? | MK17b | (talk) 06:31, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Commondreams is not WP:RS to anything and clearly WP:UNDUE. Also please mind WP:SOAP Shrike (talk) 08:32, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"Common Dreams is not WP:RS to anything" is not currently the opinion of WP:RSP. I also made no assertion about the neutrality or non-neutrality of the current title myself other than to point out that several people have challenged it, as reflected in that article. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 08:37, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
From the guidance at WP:TITLE: Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources. Neutrality is also considered... [s]ometimes that common name includes non-neutral words that Wikipedia normally avoids (e.g. Alexander the Great, or the Teapot Dome scandal). In such cases, the prevalence of the name, or the fact that a given description has effectively become a proper noun (and that proper noun has become the usual term for the event), generally overrides concern that Wikipedia might appear as endorsing one side of an issue.
If your issue is that the word "clashes" doesn't take enough of a side in a dispute, that seems like exactly the opposite of the kind of case that might make us override the WP:COMMONNAME used by reliable sources. "Clash" is indeed extremely benign/neutral/milquetoast, I don't see what problem using the same word that reliable sources do introduces here. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 11:53, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Could it possibly be changed to 2021 Jerusalem Crisis or 2021 Israel-Palestine Crisis? I feel like the events have moved far beyond the clashes in Jerusalem, seeing as people have now been killed in airstrikes and rocket attacks. But I'm not sure what name would be better to more broadly reflect the events of the past several days. I do feel that "clashes" is just insufficient as this develops. Blade Jogger 2049 Talk 13:41, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Lede

Issue with the lede, the sentences claims the police forces "stormed" the mosque. This is highly biased and incendiary language, and is not what the source claimed. Moreover, it should be noted the REASON for the necessary raid, the mosque being the place where protesters/rioters hid after attacking police, as per several Israeli sources. Durdyfiv1 (talk) 14:14, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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