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Multiple pronouns

Cloude Cahun is a victim of the violent and manipulative practice of "transing the dead". she lived and died before pronouns politics and exists. she was a femisint and a lesbian icon and we would never know if she would have used any other pronouns than "she/her". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abed shalabi (talk • contribs) 15:40, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The edits using 'he/she' and 'him/her' throughout this article are distracting to the text and contrary to Wikipedia:Manual of Style -- "Where known, use terminology that subjects use for themselves (self-identification). This can mean using the term an individual uses for himself or herself, or using the term a group most widely uses for itself. This includes referring to transgender individuals according to the names and pronouns they use to identify themselves." Accordingly, I have reverted the edit. SteveHopson 15:21, 11 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This article is currently incomprehensible. Someone is making a point using their own very narrow theory of language and rendering the article a load of rubbish. Shame, because he/she sounds very interesting, that no-one curious as I was will get past the first unreadable paragraph. I'm not prepared to get into an argument with someone with a weird fanatical view of language because it's not that important to me.

Cooke (talk) 17:07, 7 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I was under the assumption that their pronouns were they/them Kali McSporran (talk) 14:08, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The wikipedia article itself quotes Cahun as saying "Masculine? Feminine? It depends on the situation. neutral is the only gender that always suits me." Which does imply that they would prefer they/them pronouns. They were openly non-binary but french, with their highly gendered language, did not allow them to use they/them pronouns in their life. - OctoToast — Preceding undated comment added 16:24, 25 October 2021‎

Though Cahun wouldn't have used they/them pronouns in their lifetime (because they were French and lived in the 1940s), they were still non-binary; they made their identity clear in their writings, so using she/her pronouns to refer to them now is misgendering and is incorrect. - Lizzzy7 — Preceding undated comment added 16:36, 25 October 2021‎

Ok, citing the restrictiveness of the french language and the existance of illes/elles misses the point entirely. Cahun could've insisted on going by "on" (the closest to a french analog of "they") instead, and many modern French go by a variaty of invented/repurposed pronouns (e.g. "iel") just like english-speakers do). But to assume that she would have wanted to be identified by the grammatically awkward, overloaded "they", is just revisionist wishful thinking. She may, in fact, have hated "they", whether or not she would've gone by a transgender/neuter pronoun personally or been in favor of them in general. All we know is that, though she doubtless identified as non-binary (at least by today's parlance), her chosen, self-identified personal pronoun was elle, and wikipedia should respect that, lest every historical figure thought to have been a secret cross-dresser be thus posthumously stripped of his preferred pronoun.

Check for neutrality

I agree Cahun is an influential artist, but the praise in sentences like, "[H]er androgynous self-portraits display a revolutionary way of thinking and creating, experimenting with her audience's understanding of photography as a documentation of reality." should be toned down so the article sounds more encyclopedic and less like a critical review of her work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.81.75.121 (talk • contribs) 03:26, 23 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Birth Year Questionable

  1. artandfeminism #NowEditingAF I'm looking at the book, Interfaces: Women Autobiography Image Performance, The University of Michigan Press, Ann Arbor, 2005, edited by Sidonie Smith and Julia Watson. The article "Self-Representation as Symposium: The Case of Claude Cahun," by Georgiana M.M. Colville (p. 263-288) states on page 263 that Claude Cahun was born in 1904. However, this article, and Encyclopedia Brittanica state 1894, and another website says 1892. I'm not seeing a citation on the wikipedia page. Who should we trust? Sjrexplorer27! (talk) 20:56, 5 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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They / Their

The use of the pronouns "they" and "their" make this article incomprehensible, especially as much of Cahun's work was produced in collaboration with Moore. In sentences like "Their published writings include..." it is impossible to be sure who the actual author (or authors?) is (or are?). I suggest that all such instances are replaced by either "Cahun" or "Cahun and Moore" as appropriate - better that the article is repetitive than meaningless! JezGrove (talk) 11:44, 22 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Claude Cahun/Lucy Renee Mathilde Schwob was a woman, but if she refused this identity---and if the article wants to reflect and honour this---I would suggest "s/he" and "her/his" etc. The use of the plural pronoun does not work here, especially because sometimes she and her partner/collaborator Moore are involved. --WernR (talk) 22:54, 14 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

But I’m under the assumption that Claude Cahun’s pronouns were they/them. And I had no trouble reading this article as is. So I think to be respectful of Cahun I’d suggest we don’t do edit with “s/he” and “her/his”. If it needs be clarified that both Cahun and Moore did a piece of work together than it could just say “Cahun and Moore” as priorly suggested. There is no reason to have any they/them erasure within this article. Kali McSporran (talk) 14:14, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Citation supporting your assumption? Isn't it policy to follow Cahun's actual choices, not our guesses (however educated) of what Cahun might have chosen if transported to the 21st Century? NeoAdamite (talk) 05:22, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
To support Kali, the article itself quote Cahun as saying "Masculine? Feminine? It depends on the situation. neutral is the only gender that always suits me" Thereby proving that Cahun would prefer to go by they/them, as that is the "neutral" pronoun. OctoToast 25 October 2021 — Preceding undated comment added 16:37, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That's not proof. Many people who identify as non-binary use traditionally-gendered pronouns, and it's not up to us retrospectively to re-pronoun her. DavidFarmbrough (talk) 17:22, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Pronouns

I'm changing the pronouns to be he/him/his. Cahun presented as a man and was obviously transmasculine. If we aren't going to use they/their/them pronouns, then the default should be to he/him/his. Asarelah (talk) 01:43, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is a mistake, Asarelah. On Wikipedia, Cahun is categorized as a female artist. If Wikipedia can't agree on she/her, then we should go back to they/their. She was masculine but also a female. Liz Read! Talk! 00:28, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the use of they/their/them pronouns. The objection to them was that the use of these pronouns made the article hard to follow as it did not differentiate between referring to Cahun themself, and referring to Cahun and their partner. I propose we reword the article so that "they", refer to Cahun and their partner, is reworded, and then change Cahuns pronouns to the singular they.Asarelah (talk) 14:47, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any particular reason for the use of they pronouns other than Cahun's wearing of masculine clothing? I haven't read Aveux non Avenus cover to cover, but afaict it uses feminine language for Cahun, so absent some strong indication to the contrary, we should go with the language used by reliable sources including Cahun's own work. "Someone couldn't possibly live like this and be a woman" is not policy. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 19:04, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Answering my own question: the line quoted in the lede continues "If it existed in our language one wouldn't see the vacillations in my thought." So I can see a justification for using neuter pronouns, although scholarly work that quotes this line still does use "she". –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 18:51, 10 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that we should stick to they/them pronouns, and if the article needs to speak of Cahun and Moore, then it can say “Cahun and Moore.” Kali McSporran (talk) 14:16, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I just checked the New York Times, ArtNet, and the Tate Modern. All use she/her for Cahun. Could someone who reads Cahun in the original come up with an example of Cahun's own usage? NeoAdamite (talk) 05:41, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There is currently an edit war going on over her preferred pronoun. Someone even asserted, "they/them, as that seems to be the consensus." Obviously they didn't check the Talk page, which shows no such consensus.
It is wrong to apply controversial 21st-century revisionism to a historical figure. During her lifetime, "they" was strictly considered a plural pronoun, meaning "more than one person, place or thing." At best, she likely would have found it very odd to be referred to as "they." 2601:281:D47F:B960:CDA5:FBA4:1E48:F621 (talk) 06:44, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@NeoAdamite: In the intro’s 3rd paragraph, there’s this quote written by Cahun: "Masculine? Feminine? It depends on the situation. Neuter is the only gender that always suits me." To me, that indicates that Cahun would’ve preferred gender-neutral pronouns. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 07:27, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You, personally, get an indication that she would have preferred "they" – despite the fact that during her lifetime, "they" was never used to refer to a single human being – but we do not have a reliable source that states she would have preferred "they." 2601:281:D47F:B960:D48D:D4A8:39D1:668A (talk) 14:43, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Category non-binary artists?

I am a little uncertain about this artist being categorised as a non-binary artist when they lived at a time before the term non-binary existed. I think it is just worth discussing if the term ought to be applied to a person who lived at a different time, who isn't documented as applying the term to themselves. Many famous people throughout history may well have opted to identify as non-binary if they had been given the choice, but I am not sure about applying the term to them in retrospect - it can be speculative, and may disregard the fact that different mores and worldviews have existed at different times throughout history. Look at, for an obvious example, sexual mores in Ancient Greece. Totorotroll (talk) 19:27, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It is the nature of original minds to think and do things before terms (such as non-binary, Surrealist, Impressionist) exists to name their unprecedented behavior. There would be no need for the term if the reality had not previously come into existence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.235.245.63 (talk) 09:17, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Gender pronouns

There seems to be a dispute about whether to use feminine or gender-neutral pronouns. To me, it seems like the quote "Masculine? Feminine? It depends on the situation. Neuter is the only gender that always suits me." indicates that Cahun would’ve preferred gender-neutral pronouns. What do other people think? Blaylockjam10 (talk) 07:17, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • A very interesting issue! I would think that, absent any sources indicating Cahun's pronoun preference while they were alive, it might be considered original research to take the step above, but I agree it would be good to hear from other editors as well. I think I'm going to take a look about the policy and guideline pages for pronouns and gender identification to see if this particular kind of issue has been argued about discussed before. -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 08:56, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I appreciate the desire to respect Cahun's gender, but we have to be careful not to make assumptions. Many nonbinary people today don't take they/them pronouns, or (like me) take them but not exclusively. For someone who died half a century before the singular they started to be used to mean something other than "an unknown person" or "a person whose gender has not been established", and who primarily spoke a language with a gender system that does not neatly map onto English's, it would be disrespectful for us to second-guess. The relevant guideline here is MOS:GENDERID, and despite occasional representations to the contrary by some, it does apply to people who died before the modern concepts of transgender and nonbinary emerged. If in her final works Cahun avoids gendering herself or otherwise indicates a discomfort with she (or elle), then there might be a case to avoid pronouns entirely. But otherwise, GENDERID says we should use she/her. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she/they) 12:39, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "it would be disrespectful for us to second-guess" - precisely. Superseding anything we might think or assume about a person is how that person refers to himself, herself, or themselves. Since Cahun worked in a language that has genders, and since she used the feminine in her works (see citations above) we need to respect her choice.128.230.232.119 (talk) 13:16, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes but Cahun HAD to work in a very gendered language, and therefore it wasn't really their choice to use she/her. Because we can't assume anything, it's better to use the NEUTRAL option, which is they/them. She/her ISN'T neutral. OctoToast 25 October 2021
    They/them may be reasonable as a neutral object for a biographical subject whose gender identity we literally do not know. (In the past it's been used at Thomas(ine) Hall, and I think that's reasonable, although someone changed it to surname-only at some point.) But in this case we have someone with a body of published work in a gendered language. It is not our place 70 years after her death to speculate as to why she (as best I can tell) referred to herself with feminine grammatical gender. Maybe it was because French lacks a true neuter option. Maybe it was because she saw a difference between grammatical gender and social gender and was fine using she/her. Maybe she saw it as imperfect but still would object, if she were alive today, to they/them. She was a writer. French in the '40s and '50s definitely had the words to say "I wish I could refer to myself as something other than écrivain or écrivaine, français or française". But she didn't say that (again, as best I can tell). So the neutral thing to do, per MOS:GENDERID, is to defer to the subject's expressed preferences, or, if someone can supply evidence that she disliked being referred to by a feminine grammatical gender, not use pronouns at all. They/them for a subject whose gender identity is documented is no more neutral than any set of gendered pronouns. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she/they) 17:37, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Whatever the choice is, it should be consistent. Currently, the lead uses "she" and the rest of the article, except for a quote, uses "they/them". clpo13(talk) 17:21, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • A non-binary friend of mine asked me to change the feminine pronouns in the lede, so I'm glad I checked here first. Not being familiar with Cahun before today, I would've assumed they/them throughout would make the most sense here. Is there a case for alternating she and they? I'm surprised MOS:GENDERID seems to neither permit nor forbid that. --BDD (talk) 17:46, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 25 October 2021

I suggest that the editors change all of the "she/her" pronouns on the page to "they/them", as Claude did not identify with "she/her" pronouns. Pokem307 (talk) 13:52, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Pokem307: The discussion above already discussed this issue and came to the consensus that changing them wouldn't be necessary. If you have any further evidence or sources proving that they would have used they/them pronouns, further action could be taken. ― Levi_OPTalk 15:07, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:25, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 25 October 2021 (2)

Change neutral to neuter in the quote "Masculine? Feminine? It depends on the situation. Neutral is the only gender that suits me."

It was changed to neutral because someone thought neuter was a mistake, but given Claude's fluency in German, which has a neuter gender, and the fact that all the other websites featuring the quote also use neuter rather than neutral, even without access to the source book, it seems obvious to me that neuter is correct. 74.110.113.205 (talk) 14:52, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Done after verifying the translation used in the book. (Although really neutre could be translated either way; but we should defer to published translations when possible.) -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she/they) 17:26, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 25 October 2021 (3)

Change "anti-Semitism" to "antisemitism". 2600:1700:5120:1A80:C43A:CFFD:BF97:2100 (talk) 16:54, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Alduin2000 (talk) 19:01, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 25 October 2021 (4)

In the third and fifth sentences, change Claude Cahun's pronouns from "she" to "they". AGATSUMA (talk) 17:21, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not done for now. Please see discussion above. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she/they) 17:27, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 25 October 2021 (5)

They are best known as a writer and self-portraitist, who assumed a variety of performative personae.

Cahun's work is both political and personal. In Disavowals, they writes: "Masculine? Feminine? It depends on the situation. Neuter is the only gender that always suits me."[4] Telichty (talk) 17:49, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done Please be clearer about your requested change. --BDD (talk) 17:52, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 25 October 2021 (6)

"Schwob adopted the pseudonym Claude Cahun in 1914.[3] She is best known as a writer and self-portraitist, who assumed a variety of performative personae"

In the second sentence, Shwob is referred to as "she" where throughout the rest of the article they are referred to using they/them pronouns. I believe the use of she in this sentence is most likely incorrect and should be changed to "They are best known as a writer and self-portraitist..." 132.205.229.60 (talk) 17:49, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not done for now. This article is currently frozen at what we call The Wrong Version, but changing it in either direction would just further the edit war, so let's leave it for now. You're welcome to join the discussion a few sections up. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she/they) 18:00, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Past or present tense

Tenses are all over the place, needs to be standardized and fixed Kaylahawk (talk) 17:54, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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