Talk:North Macedonia

First sentence

Would it be possible to ever agree to making the first sentence of this article similar to that of the articles of other countries? E.g. Samoa, Sri Lanka, Belgium:

Samoa (/səˈmoʊə/), officially the Independent State of Samoa (Samoan: Malo Saʻoloto Tutoʻatasi o Sāmoa; Samoan: Sāmoa, IPA: [ˈsaːmoa]) and until 1997 known as Western Samoa, is a Polynesian island country ...

Sri Lanka (UK: /sri ˈlæŋkə, ʃriː -/, US: /- ˈlɑːŋkə/ ; Sinhala: ශ්‍රී ලංකා, romanized: Śrī Laṅkā; Tamil: இலங்கை, romanized: Ilaṅkai), formerly known as Ceylon, and officially the Democratic Socialist Republic of Sri Lanka, is an island country in South Asia.

Belgium (Dutch: België [ˈbɛlɣijə] ; French: Belgique [bɛlʒik] ; German: Belgien [ˈbɛlɡi̯ən] ), officially the Kingdom of Belgium, is a country in Western Europe.

This would mean transforming the monstrosity of:

North Macedonia (Macedonia until February 2019), officially the Republic of North Macedonia, is a country in Southeast Europe.

to

North Macedonia (Macedonian: Северна Македонија, romanized: Severna Makedonija, pronounced [ˈsɛvɛrna makɛˈdɔnija]; Albanian: Maqedonia e Veriut, pronounced [macɛˈdɔnja ɛ vɛɾˈjut]), officially the Republic of North Macedonia and until February 2019 known as Macedonia, is a country in Southeast Europe.

Potentially, could also stay next to Republic of North Macedonia, as Republic of North Macedonia, although the names are also in the infobox. Heracletus (talk) 13:22, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

To be clear, are you suggesting the sentence without the very long and alternating blue and black parenthetical is the monstrosity? CMD (talk) 15:45, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes. The very long blue and black is the standard for all country articles. Nevertheless, it is not difficult to hide everything in a footnote, to get this:

"North Macedonia is a country in Southeast Europe."

However, for some reason, I have this feeling that even fewer editors will agree to this. Nevertheless, as the first sentence currently stands, it is just a mix and match of nationalisms, with the Albanians adding the Albanian name of the country and its pronounciation everywhere and with the Macedonians trying to essentially have the article reading into something like "Macedonia (until 2019) ...". Eventually, however, someone will change the first sentence into reading properly... My version provides all the information into proper English within a couple of lines and gets rids of footnotes and the unusual structure of "North Macedonia (Macedonia until February 2019)...". In proper English, and in any language, more so when it is written, you would never have a structure of the form "South America (America ...)", but rather something like "North Macedonia (which was known as Macedonia until February 2019)..." or "North Macedonia (until February 2019, [known as] Macedonia)...". It just doesn't sound or read well, not to mention that the name was even contested. Nevertheless, apparently, forming a proper first sentence in English does not seem to have too many supporters, even when no information is removed.

If one looks at other languages, one gets the following:

• German: "Nordmazedonien ({{mkS|Северна Македонија|Severna Makedonija}}, {{sqS|Maqedonia e Veriut}}; amtlich Republik Nordmazedonien, {{mkS|Република Северна Македонија|Republika Severna Makedonija}}, {{sqS|Republika e Maqedonisë së Veriut}}; bis 2019: Republik Mazedonien) ist ein Binnenstaat in Südosteuropa. Er befindet sich im Nordwesten der historischen Region Makedonien."
• Italian: "La Macedonia del Nord, ufficialmente Repubblica della Macedonia del Nord ({{macedone|Република Северна Македонија|Republika Severna Makedonija}}; in albanese: Republika e Maqedonisë së Veriut), è uno Stato della penisola balcanica nell'Europa sud-orientale. La capitale è Skopje.

Fino al 2019 il nome ufficiale dello Stato era Repubblica di Macedonia: ..."

• French (where it is a good article): "La Macédoine du Nord (en macédonien Северна Македонија, translittéré [Severna Makedonija] Error: {{Lang}}: text has italic markup (help) ; en albanais [Maqedonia e Veriut] Error: {{Lang}}: text has italic markup (help)), en forme longue la république de Macédoine du Nord (en macédonien Република Северна Македонија, translittéré [Republika Severna Makedonija] Error: {{Lang}}: text has italic markup (help) ; en albanais [Republika e Maqedonisë së Veriut] Error: {{Lang}}: text has italic markup (help)), est un pays d'Europe du Sud situé dans la péninsule des Balkans.

Connue de 1991 à 2019 sous le nom de « république de Macédoine » ou « ancienne république yougoslave de Macédoine » (ou par le sigle ARYM)[[#ref_{{{1}}}|^]] , ou parfois simplement « Macédoine » dans le langage courant, "

So, yes, this crappy monstrosity exists only in English, and my proposal is quite proper. My point is made precisely by the German text, which exactly says "North Macedonia (<name in local languages>; officially, Republic of North Macedonia <in local languages>; until 2019, Republic of Macedonia) is a landlocked state in Southern Europe.".

Heracletus (talk) 13:30, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Was it not officially called in the UN etc Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, and in the interior just Macedonia, until February 2019?--Skylax30 (talk) 12:53, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

UN does not have an authority to decide the names of countries. It is a sovereign right of every country to name itself. What you are talking about was not a name, but a temporary reference, a provisional description and that is already mentioned in the third paragraph. GStojanov (talk) 13:31, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

OK, enjoy.--Skylax30 (talk) 12:34, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Actually, you are both right and you are both pushing your WP:POVs. :P For example, GStojanov writes "It is a sovereign right of every country to name itself.", which is complete BS, as of course there are no "sovereign rights of countries" defined somewhere. An easy way to disprove this statement would be Armenia, which is called in Armenian "Hayastan", which is obviously not the same as "Armenia". However, the rest of the world calls them "Armenia" and the English wikipedia has an article on "Armenia". In the endless name wars regarding North Macedonia on wikipedia, it was established that "Macedonia" had been used as the most common name of the country in English. In either case, my proposal is a restructuring of bad English into proper English, without affecting any of the names used or not used, etc.

On the other hand, I could also propose that the first sentence be: "North Macedonia (former UN designation "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", shortened to "fYROM", until 2019) ....". I mean it's not impossible to push for any WP:POV with this article, and this proposal would be as valid as the current "North Macedonia (Macedonia until 2019)..."... Nevertheless, my proposal is just to change the current first sentence into reading more properly, without affecting the names mentioned, etc. Heracletus (talk) 22:40, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree with changing the introduction to be more consistent with other country pages. I also do not thing that fYROM needs to be in the introduction as only the United Nations used it. It's my understanding the common name for the country before the name change was just Macedonia. Spekkios (talk) 09:13, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

For the record, not only the UN used "FYRoM". It was used by many international organisations (including pretty much any organisation of which Greece was part, such as the EU), as well as many countries, such as France, Germany and Australia. Before the agreement, there was never a commonly accepted name for the country. --Antondimak (talk) 07:41, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

Notes

Former name

Former name of North Macedonia was not Macedonia, it was Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia or fyrom ( source of the existence of the name https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/FYROM ) Tsoulos (talk) 17:52, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Wikimedia Foundation (which owns Wikipedia) is independent and not dictated by third-party agreements or how the United Nations call a country. Since you are in the English version of Wikipedia, please make sure to read WP:MOSMAC first before making any proposals or requests in the future. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 23:09, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 August 2021

change Macedonia to F.Y.R.o.M.

The official name of the country until February of 2019 was Former Yugoslavik Republic of Macedonia or FYROM. The reason that this country changed the name was that there is a Region with the name Macedonia in Greece and because historically and culturally belongs to the ancient Greece. So, it's unfair still to use the name Macedonia instead of FYROM or instead of North Macedonia where it is necessary. Thank you!! 46.103.192.185 (talk) 21:40, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. —Sirdog9002 (talk) 22:14, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

46.103.192.185, the Wikimedia Foundation (which owns Wikipedia) is independent and not dictated by third-party agreements or how the United Nations call a country. Since you are in the English version of Wikipedia, please make sure to read WP:MOSMAC first before making any proposals or requests in the future. Your proposal goes against what the consensus has concluded with MOSMAC, and therefore, cannot be accepted. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 23:12, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Suggestion for section on science and technology

Hi, just a suggestion, many country articles have sections for 'science and technology', this could be a section on this article as well.

Thanks

John Cummings (talk) 16:01, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't see why not. However it is necessary that there is notable information to warrant the creation of the section. Does anyone have any sourced content that may be worth adding to it? --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 23:17, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 October 2021

1,832,696 (2021) . Population is 1,832,696 now after the new government census SaltyViking (talk) 10:07, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

References

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. – Jonesey95 (talk) 00:34, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Not directly related to the above edit request, but since it is still about that very same census: its unclear if the results are preliminary or not. In the Demographics of North Macedonia's infobox the results appear as if they are not preliminary, while in North Macedonia's infobox they appear as if they are. Any ideas? --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 20:37, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Use of “North Macedonian” instead of “North Macedonia”

My edit to remove North Macedonian was reverted: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=North_Macedonia&oldid=prev&diff=1052132887 The revert edit simply said “atypical English”. Is the other person correct or am I? I believe the “North Macedonian” term has been rejected by the country. Against that, maybe that counts for nothing on WP and it’s a case of whatever English we think is most typical, even if it is offensive to people in the country? Thanks.Frenchmalawi (talk) 06:25, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Hi, we had a rather big debate about this when the renaming of the country came into effect (see WP:Naming conventions (Macedonia)). The result was that the linguistic prescriptions about adjective use as expressed in the Prespa Agreement couldn't be binding for us and that we would follow common English usage as it would develop. So, for the time being, both adjectival "North Macedonian" and short "Macedonian" (as an informal alternative, where the context is clear) are equally acceptable. In contrast, nominal compound forms like "the North Macedonia dendroflora" are linguistically inappropriate, as they are unidiomatic if not ungrammatical in English. It's just like you wouldn't say "the France dendroflora" when you can say "the French dendroflora" instead – in English, you just don't use these types of compounds when a proper adjectival alternative is available.

Unfortunately, this state of affairs still leaves room for national POV-driven edit warriors to fight over whether "North" is required in any particular instance, as you've seen in the edit history following your edits, but that seems to be something we have to live with, for the time being. In that particular instance, the best alternative would probably be to change to "the country's dendroflora" anyway. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:05, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

"Communist Yuvoslavia"

Was there a different Yugoslavia? Or is this just a McCarthyite slur for good measure? 76.69.87.247 (talk) 09:47, 30 October 2021 (UTC)