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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 93.103.223.236 (talk) at 12:03, 26 February 2022 (→Kyiv is located on the Dnipro river not the Dnieper). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Template:Vital article

Former good article nomineeKyiv was a Geography and places good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
August 21, 2005Peer reviewReviewed
May 23, 2006Featured article candidateNot promoted
September 25, 2007Good article nomineeNot listed
Current status: Former good article nominee

The GDP and GDP per capita updates

According to UkrStat the GDP of Kyiv in 2019 is 949,566,000,000 UAH (36,733,000,000 USD) and 320,897 UAH (12,413 USD) per capita[1]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tauri-ori (talk • contribs) 09:56, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Salaries updates

The "Economy" section of the article should be updated with new data. The sentence "As of July 2019, the average monthly net salary in Kyiv reached 16,249 UAH (€560 / US$ 630)" should be rewritten to "As of October 2021, the average monthly net salary in Kyiv reached 16,487 UAH (€538 / US$ 609) [2]". The new salary is almost the same because there was an error in the previous version of the sentence. 16,249 UAH in July 2019 is gross, not a net salary. You can check it here - https://index.minfin.com.ua/labour/salary/average/2019/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tauri-ori (talk • contribs) 10:09, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please add to notable people list

  • Yury Gelman (born 1955), Ukrainian-born American Olympic fencing coach

--2603:7000:2143:8500:5153:26CB:DD94:CAD6 (talk) 09:41, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Pronunciation

Note [a] explains how to say Kiev, not Kyiv. How do we now say Kyiv in English? 99.229.116.186 (talk) 19:21, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The sources suggest that it should be pronounced precisely as in Ukrainian, i.e. as [ˈkɪjiu̯]. For a monoglot English speaker this is very difficult, as it breaks the rules of English phonology in several different ways. English does not allow an unpalatalised [k] before [ɪ], and does not allow the [u̯] (or its near relative [w]) at the end of a syllable. The sound sequence [ˈɪji] cannot occur in English as two syllables, even across a word boundary (though it is close to a common British English realisation of /iː/ as [ɪ͡i]).
So pronouncing as in Ukrainian, even if it's supposed to be the only correct form, is a non starter. In practice, you have two choices. One is to just say Kiev (as described here). The other is to simplify [ˈkɪjiu̯] to /kiːv/. Kahastok talk 19:56, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure how it would be written in IPA, but I could see someone pronouncing Kyiv like the word "key" followed by the sounds represented by "ive" in "give". Just continuing to pronounce it like Kiev is probably the most likely, though.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 20:39, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ironically, the version you describe is actually very similar to the Russian pronunciation [ˈkʲi(j)ɪf]. The big difference is that the final sound in Russian is an unvoiced [f] (as in if) rather than a voiced [v] (as in give).
In Ukrainian the vowels are the other way around - a short i (as in kick) immediately followed by the yea as in yeast. As I say, English never puts these sounds together like this, and it's a very difficult combination for a monoglot English speaker to pronounce. Far too difficult to survive as the default pronunciation for a major city. Kahastok talk 21:18, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There could be a big difference in maybe how it should be pronounced and how it is actually pronounced in English. I find it rare to be pronounced any differently than it always has been in English. Either Key-ev or Key-ef, just like the chicken dish, no matter how we spell it. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:37, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The two references at the very end of the Kyiv#Etymology section discuss this, but the non-expert journalists aren’t exactly reliable on this, and the only thing perfectly clear is that there isn’t a single established English pronunciation that’s specific to the current spelling.
If anyone finds more sources on how English-language radio or TV is addressing this, please bring them here. —Michael Z. 22:54, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Currently i'm hearing on the BBC the old/"usual" pronunciation more, but also some speakers are using a "Keev" pronunciation, single syllable to closely rhyme with "heave". Happy days ~ LindsayHello 17:18, 14 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'd say 'kay-eve' which is pretty close to how it's said in western Ukrainian dialects and more natural in english—blindlynx 02:34, 17 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
All I ever hear on American public radio news broadcasts is [ki:v] "Keev". One syllable with an overtly long [i:]. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 17:39, 17 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Here are some examples of "Kyiv" as [ki:v]. (There are still some that say [kiyev], such as Fox News and Al Jazeera):
Here is the correct pronunciation in Ukrainian, but, of course, it is unattainable in English phonology and phonotactics: [3]
--TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 18:21, 17 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I meant more like, the radio and TV media’s pronunciation guides or instructions. I’ve never seen any of that published, except for the NPR item cited in the article. —Michael Z. 04:33, 18 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Meanwhile, can we at least add the correct Ukrainian pronunciation, [ˈkɪjiu̯]? It's weird that there's the correct Russian pronunciation on the page, and not the Ukrainian one. And for what it's worth, it's easy enough for English speakers to say "KI-yeve" ("KI" as in "kid", "y" as in "ye", and "eve" as in "eve"). Etoombs (talk) 20:27, 19 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No. The pronunciation is for the pronunciation in English. The "correct Russian pronunciation" is not on the page. There are two English pronunciations that are more common than any others: [ˈki:v] and [kiˈɛv]. And it doesn't matter whether or not you (incorrectly) think that it's easy for Americans to pronounce Kyiv like Ukrainians do. Wikipedia doesn't prescribe what you think English speakers should do, it describes what English speakers actually do. And it's not mimic Ukrainian pronunciation. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 07:18, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I highlighted the English pronunciations and added Ukrainian. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 07:44, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Taivo, for the edition. BTW, the Russian pronunciation was on the page at the time I posted that. Someone must have taken it down by the time you looked. Anyway, it doesn't matter now. Thanks again. Etoombs (talk) 22:07, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It seems odd that the article sets out how to pronounce Kiev before it sets out how to pronounce Kyiv. EuroAgurbash (talk) 12:01, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The city is named Kiev in English. There is no Kyiv alternative and that is why there is no pronunciation for it. Progress for the sake of progress must be discouraged. 124.169.157.51 (talk) 16:04, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Kyiv is located on the Dnipro river not the Dnieper

Dnieper - is how the river is called in Russian language, however the official language of Ukraine, quite logically, is Ukrainian, not Russia (just as the official language in Russia is Russian, not Ukrainian). The correct pronunciation of the river Kyiv is located on is: Dnipro. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.211.169.151 (talk) 08:48, 14 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Just as Dnieper is how it's called in the English language, which is the language this Wikipedia is written in. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:20, 14 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Fyunck - Wikipedia is not 100% correct, mistakes are made then corrected. Everything changes over time as new facts come to light. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.108.51.34 (talk) 10:05, 14 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
On the fact Wikipedia is not 100% correct we can agree. In fact it's an understatement. But that is not the point. Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:21, 14 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Also see WP:COMMONNAME; it is rather important which name is used in the english-language sources. Lectonar (talk) 10:13, 14 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Commonly Recognized' does not justify continuing the use of an incorrect name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.108.51.34 (talk) 10:25, 14 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It's not incorrect. It is English. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 10:27, 14 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Actually yes it does. Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:30, 14 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
We don't translate German cities, rivers, etc. to English via Russian language, so it's completely illogical to translate Ukrainian cities, rivers, etc. to English via Russian language - therefore Dnieper in English is incorrect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.108.51.34 (talk) 12:28, 14 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The correct place to take this up is Talk:Dnieper. We can't change the article name through a discussion here. CMD (talk) 12:56, 14 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's worth noting that Kyiv was called Kiev in all English-language sources until several years ago. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:9180:BAE0:8486:BE4B:7341:A02B (talk) 14:37, 19 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Dnieper is far far more common than Dnipro, it should stay Kind Regards, NotAnotherNameGuy (talk) 08:37, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's not "Dnieper" in Russian, it's "Днепр" so "Dnepr" (or "Dnyepr" if you want to indicate palatalization) so, I think this entire debate is just obtuse. Keep neutral spelling. 93.103.223.236 (talk) 12:03, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Pronunciations this long should not be in the lead

The lead is really hard to read when the pronunciation guide takes up so much space. Our readers expect to see Kyiv also known as Kiev and instead all they see is Kyiv (English: /ˈkiːɛv, -ɛf, kiːˈɛv, -ˈɛf/ KEE-ev, -⁠ef, kee-EV, -⁠EF[10][11] US also /kiːv/ KEEV.[12]) (Ukrainian: Київ, romanized: Kyiv, pronounced [ˈkɪjiu̯]), also known as Kiev (Russian: Киев, romanized: Kiyev, pronounced [ˈkʲi(j)ɪf])... When it gets this ridiculously long with pronunciations they should all go in the Etymology section. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:50, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. I shortened it down to the two main pronunciations that are occurring in English language media. All that detail wasn't actually proper pronunciation information, but options due to English phonotactics. It's irrelevant noise. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 07:58, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That was too much shortening. I was looking for the Ukrainian name (Київ) and had to click on the link to the Russian article to find it. For a comparision, see the article on Moscow, which includes the Russian name for the city. I suggest restoring this to the lead: "Ukrainian: Київ". --50.39.99.70 (talk) 18:17, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There is a whole guideline on the use of geographic names in articles: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names). --50.39.99.70 (talk) 18:31, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
What are you talking about? The Ukrainian name is in the first sentence under Etymology. No need to go to Russian Wikipedia. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:22, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
And if the anon really did have to look at a different language's page to find it, there's a very handy inter-wiki language link to the Ukrainian page in the left sidebar. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 19:50, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)#General guidelines: “The lead . . . Relevant foreign language names . . . are permitted,” “a local official name different from a widely accepted English name should be both in such separate section and in the lead.”
WP:LEADLANG: “If the subject of the article is closely associated with a non-English language, a single foreign language equivalent name can be included in the lead sentence, usually in parentheses.” Above: “ Relevant foreign-language names . . . are encouraged. Separate languages should be divided by semicolons, and romanizations of non-Latin scripts by commas.”
Since we’ve discussed pronunciation, but not removing the native name, I’ll restore it to reflect the current consensus. —Michael Z. 19:57, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. That's perfect. --50.39.99.70 (talk) 20:51, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This is not the standing consensus. The standing consensus is either this or this. Since you say you intended to revert to the consensus, I have reverted to the latter of these.
Wikipedia's preferred Romanisation system for Russian says that Киев is Romanised as Kiyev. We should not be in the business of coming up with our own separate Romansiations when we already have a consensus standard in place. If we are insisting on Kiev as the primary Romanisation of Киев, then there is no reason not to also allow Kyyiv as a primary Romansiation for "Київ". Kahastok talk 20:57, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I said I was reverting the undiscussed removal of the native name, to reflect the guideline’s recommendation to include it and the consensus to include it. I didn’t know there was a standing consensus version of the page.
Separately, I corrected a statement that the Russian name is romanized Kiyev, to reflect that the more common English-language romanization is Kiev. Nothing to do with “we are insisting” or Wikipedia’s “primary romanization.” If you want the article to state how Wikipedia’s original-research romanization system renders the Russian name, I am opposed to including that at all. —Michael Z. 21:52, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The lead is still a mess as far as pronunciation keys. It's one thing to have one item but this has several and should be in a separate section, not the lead. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:59, 22 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps the Russian one can be ditched now? News reports from Ukraine over the last few months have indicated that Russian speakers in Ukraine are switching in droves to Ukrainian. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 10:39, 22 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree it’s less clear than after my edit. Guidelines I cited recommend one foreign language in the lead, regardless of local linguistic landscape. —Michael Z. 18:59, 22 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Then again, the way things are going, it may soon go back to Kiev with no Ukraine at all. A fluid and dangerous situation in that part of the world. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:28, 22 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Don't count on it. Russia doesn't have enough blood to take over Ukraine. In the streets of Kharkiv all you heard was Russian in 2013. Now you have to listen very hard to hear someone not speaking Ukrainian. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 11:01, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I hope you're right. Right now I fear a return to a time when only Russian will be allowed to be taught in schools. Back to a Tibet-like area where Ukraine is an area of Russia called "The Ukraine", not a country. I hope I'm wrong but I fear I'm right. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:44, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Whether or not there's a case for dropping the Russian - and the case made so far is 100% anecdotal - MOS:ALTNAME says that alternative English names should be included. Kiev is more widely searched than Kyiv in several major English-speaking countries, including the United States, United Kingdom, Canada, South Africa and Australia. Whatever we might think of the name of the article, it is indisputable that Kiev is a significant alternative name in English, that should be included per MOS:ALTNAME. Kahastok talk 18:21, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, the "anecdotal" was a report from a correspondent in Kharkiv on NPR. But nevertheless, the Wikipedia guidance cited above argues for just one foreign language option following the English name(s) as the preferred norm. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 18:27, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
However you can't simply remove the English alternate "Kiev" from the lead as you did in this edit. It has since been added back but maybe that was a mistake on your part when you removed the foreign pronunciations? Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:01, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It was an inadvertent deletion because it was buried in the foreign versions rather than being correctly placed with the English name. It has a bad habit of being called "the Russian name" when it is not. It is simply the prior name in English that is still commonly encountered. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 23:16, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Only noticing this discussion now. I restored the pronunciations, since they were sourced and the source had been removed too, and moved them into a note. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 12:27, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Several problems with that. First, either we include the Russian or we don't. If we're including the Russian, it shouldn't be in a footnote. If we're not including the Russian, then it shouldn't be in a footnote. So why is it in a footnote?
Second, this then brings us back to the beginning of the thread, where we have a pronunciation section that is far too long.
Third, the word people can't pronounce is Kyiv, and this is not resolved by telling them in vast detail how to pronounce Kiev. Kahastok talk 18:00, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
First off, we need a source to provide English IPA for Kyiv, period; until then, readers are going to have to approximate the Ukrainian, it sucks but there’s no other way. Secondly, the problem with length was that it cluttered the lead section, an issue which is easily resolved with a footnote. And ultimately, why shouldn’t Russian be in a footnote? After all, it is a secondary language and the source of the Kiev spelling after which I placed the footnote. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 18:07, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Added /kiːv/ for Kyiv per Merriam-Webster. The other transcription is clearly an attempt at approximating the Ukrainian pronunciation, but English phonotactics do not allow /ˈkɪjiːuː/. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 18:14, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Etymology is not a good reason to put the Russian in the lede at all. In fact, MOS:LEADLANG is quite specific. Do not include foreign equivalents in the lead sentence just to show etymology. Also, while we can put foreign language names in footnotes, we should be doing it with all of them or none of them. We can't footnote one name and not the other. That's per MOS:ALTNAME.
And in the same way it makes no sense to footnote one pronunciation but not the other. We either put the whole lot in footnotes or none of it. Kahastok talk 18:19, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've put a new version in. This removes most of the clutter by getting rid of minor variations of the same pronunciation, and by excluding the Russian entirely. Kahastok talk 18:29, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sometimes these discussions devolve into one versus one. Just so Kahastok doesn't feel alone, I think he's right on target--two primary English variants and Ukrainian. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 18:43, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Again, just because it’s too cluttering to have all pronunciations in the lead doesn’t mean we get to decide which ones to remove. Also, please pay attention to punctuation because the lead ended up being a mess of semicolons and parentheses. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 22:13, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
And regarding the inclusion of the Russian name, it wasn’t just because it is the origin of the Kiev variant, but also because the language has been spoken in Ukraine to various extents. In other words, it’s not the same as if we included the French pronunciation for Naples. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 22:18, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Reverting back to a form that was cleaner, conformed to Wikipedia practice, and has more support. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 22:19, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Seriously, how does the current note bother you, how does it look any less “clean”? And again, how do we decide which pronunciation we should keep? 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 22:23, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You don't seem to have read the comments here. The English forms and English pronunications must go first, then one foreign form following. Your edit makes a mess of things by mixing the English in amongst the foreign forms. Russian is not included because in a selection of one foreign form (the preferred Wikipedia number), Ukrainian has priority (since it's the official language naturally). --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 22:25, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
And I have put the English first for each separate spelling, which makes more sense. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 22:27, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No, all the English goes first, then any foreign language forms. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 22:44, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Well of course, of you don’t take into account that each of the two English forms is based on each of two distinct languages. But nevermind, I inserted a transcription for Ukrainian so that readers understand. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 22:51, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
And in any case you chose to ignore my notes on punctuation and not to address my question as to what’s the criterion for keeping /ˈkiːɛv/ over /ˈkiːɛf/, /kiːˈɛv/ and /kiːˈɛf/. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 22:47, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Kyiv has multiple pronunciations in English. The most common is Key-ev(ef) and in some news sources they are using Keev. We don't just show one version in the lead if we are going to show it. Websters shows Key-u but I've never heard that to be honest. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:52, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have heard exactly one native English speaker use "key-u" and that was the director of the Ukrainian Fulbright program at a Fulbright scholars orientation meeting in Washington in 2007 before leaving for a year in Ukraine. His parents were Ukrainian immigrants and he learned the language as a child so he was using a native Ukrainian pronunciation. No other English speaker that I have ever heard (either in the US or in Ukraine) has used "key-u" and while I live in the US, I've been in and out of Ukraine for years. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 10:46, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
But the source listed uses Key-u... so that Websters source should be removed. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:36, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Right. Webster's - what, KIH-yee-oo? KIH-yee-w? With three syllables? - is clearly just an attempt to render the Ukrainian in English because that's how it's supposed to sound. Not necessarily what people actually say. We are not bots, and we are allowed to exercise judgement about how to use our sources. In this case, it makes sense to only list one variation on KEE-ev and to not include pronunciations that nobody uses. Kahastok talk 18:22, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Taking stock

I just want to be sure on what the remaining issues are at this stage. The questions at the moment I think are mostly resolved, but I think it's worth checking I have all of these correct. Because I'm not understanding why there's a POV tag on this article.

My understanding is that:

  1. We have consensus to include both English variants and the Ukrainian word Київ, but not the Russian word Киев.
  2. We have consensus to include the pronunciation /kiːv/ KEEV.
  3. We have consensus to include a single pronunciation that is a variant on /ˈkiːɛv/ KEE-ev.
  4. There is dispute as to whether to include /kɪjiːuː/ KIH-yee-oo as an English pronunciation?
  5. We have consensus to include a Ukrainian pronunciation of Київ, either as [ˈkɪjiu̯] ⓘ or as Template:Lang-uk.
  6. There is dispute as to whether to include [ˈkɪjiu̯] ⓘ or Template:Lang-uk (with transcription)?

Please could we start discussing the options here and work together on a text rather than continually changing the article? The fact that we're having this discussion demonstrates that the status quo is not necessarily the standing consensus per WP:WRONGVERSION.

My preferred choice is:

Kyiv or Kiev ((/kiːv/ KEEV;[1] or /ˈkiːɛv/ KEE-ev)[2][3]; Template:Lang-uk [ˈkɪjiu̯] ⓘ) is the capital...

but I am open to other options and won't insist on precisely this. IMO we should not include an English pronunciation based on [ˈkɪjiu̯] because no monoglot English-speakers actually say anything that sounds like that. And we are better off including the IPA and audio because it's more descriptive than just repeating the Ukrainian transcription (given that the point of including the Ukrainian is not to give the etymology of Kyiv in English).

Would other editors please make proposals in a similar manner, and explain them, and explain their objections to others' versions where they exist? Thanks, Kahastok talk 21:25, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Kyiv". Merriam-Webster.com Dictionary. Merriam-Webster. Retrieved 2022-02-24.
  2. ^ Jones, Daniel (2011). Roach, Peter; Setter, Jane; Esling, John (eds.). Cambridge English Pronouncing Dictionary (18th ed.). Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0-521-15255-6.
  3. ^ Wells, John C. (2008). Longman Pronunciation Dictionary (3rd ed.). Longman. ISBN 978-1-4058-8118-0.
I agree with Kahastok's assessment and his version. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 22:44, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This is how I would put it: Kyiv (/kiːv/ KEEV; Template:Lang-uk [ˈkɪjiu̯] ⓘ) or Kiev (/ˈkiːɛv, -ɛf/ KEE-ev, -⁠ef; Template:Lang-ru [ˈkʲi(j)ɪf] ⓘ); pretty immediate, you easily get why the English has two variants and you don’t need to put additional transliterations since Kyiv and Kiev basically are transliterations of what comes just next. But seeing there is no consensus to keep Russian, simply Kyiv (/kiːv/ KEEV; Template:Lang-uk [ˈkɪjiu̯] ⓘ) or Kiev (/ˈkiːɛv, -ɛf/ KEE-ev, -⁠ef) would be great. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 23:00, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Kahastok. And "why English has two variants" isn't really something that needs to be in the lead. That's what etymology sections are for. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 00:07, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I probably didn’t make my point clear. If it doesn’t make sense to put the Ukrainian spelling Київ next to the English form that stems from it, I don’t know what does. Because if we don’t, we need to make the lead more lengthy by providing a romanization for Київ, which I had to do to the current version which would otherwise be unclear. In other words, if the original problem of this discussion was “the lead is too long”, this is the only way to make it concise. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 07:11, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
OK, so let's start by pointing out that Websters does not give Key-U as a valid pronunciation. Websters gives a one-syllable pronunciation ˈkēv and a three-syllable pronunciation ˈki-yē-ü. Best guess, the two syllable Key-U is your attempt to represent the audio file's attempt to pronounce the three-syllable version.
By the looks of things, ˈki-yē-ü is Websters' attempt to represent the Ukrainian [ˈkɪjiu̯] using their respelling alphabet. That attempt is a failure, because [ˈkɪjiu̯] is basically unpronounceable in English. As you demonstrated when you interpreted it as Key-U.
What's more, I think we're all agreed that [ˈkɪjiu̯] will go into the article regardless, because it is the Ukrainian pronunciation. Those people who want to pronounce it precisely as in Ukrainian will have the information they need to do this.
So I think the question now becomes, do we have to list [ˈkɪjiu̯] twice, once as Ukrainian, once as English, even though we know that the vast majority of our readers won't be able to pronounce it as an English word? Bearing in mind that there is no way of representing [ˈkɪjiu̯] using our pronunciation respelling key because these are not valid English syllables? And is it non-neutral for us to fail to do so?
We are not bots. We don't have to just regurgitate our sources. We are allowed to use our intelligence. It is not intelligent to include something as an English pronunciation if we know that it is unpronounceable in English, particularly when it will already be included as a Ukrainian pronunciation. Kahastok talk 11:28, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 February 2022

Paradox NiteOwl (Discussion?) 17:12, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Add "alternatively spelled Kiev" to the end of ([kiːv] or [kiˈɛv]; Template:Lang-uk, pronounced [ˈkɪjiu̯])

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. This is a whole thing. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:15, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

So what is the neutrality issue?

There's a big banner on the article saying that the article's neutrality is disputed and directing readers here for more information. But I can't see anything relevant here (unless the neutrality issue is the pronunciation of the name? It seems a bit disproportionate to tag the entire article over that). I get the current event, but that doesn't seem itself to call neutrality into question and the main Ukraine article isn't similarly tagged for neutrality. So what's it all about? 217.28.13.237 (talk) 12:47, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The article is pro-West nd anti-Russia. 2402:3A80:E08:ED02:D8AA:9960:B695:399F (talk) 13:40, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You need to elaborate. Otherwise, the response is simply "No, it's not" 2600:8800:2C01:C700:1C6D:4D35:2D9D:7B4B (talk) 13:45, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Fyunck(click) placed the {{POV}} tag a few hours ago because "[w]e have a POV lead now with and [sic] editor changing the status quo pronunciation." So I think this really is about the controversy discussed above under § Pronunciations this long should not be in the lead. I also think the tagging is unjustified, and a naive reader might understand it to be insinuating something else. Fyunck, would you care to respond? Rebbing 14:58, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sure. The lead has been bouncing around like a ping pong ball. we've had short ones like "Kyiv (Ukrainian: Київ) or Kiev", medium length ones like "Kyiv or Kiev (Ukrainian: Київ, romanized: Kyiv; Russian: Киев, romanized: Kiyev)", and massive ones that were hard to read, "Kyiv ([kiːv] or [kiˈɛv]) (Ukrainian: Київ, romanized: Kyiv, pronounced [ˈkɪjiu̯]), also known as Kiev (Russian: Киев, romanized: Kiyev, pronounced [ˈkʲi(j)ɪf])". I even started a thread above on the length. But suddenly we have editor "IvanScrooge98" changing it with a single pronunciation to KEEV in the very lead using a source from Websters whose pronunciation is Key-U. I still here most English users using Key-ev regardless of spelling but some in the news in the last couple days have certainly been using Keev. I reverted his single English pronunciation twice and I wasn't going to do it again. It is POV. It can be roved completely like it was before this started but if pronunciation in English is given in must show multiple versions, not just mislead and show one. All of that should be in the Etymology section and not necessarily the lead. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:41, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm a little confused as to how this represents a POV issue, which at its core is a question of neutrality. Not all factual disputes are issues of neutrality, and that the entire article is hit with an NPOV tag based on that alone — implying the entire article does not fairly represent the balance of perspectives of high-quality, reliable secondary sources per the documentation for the POV template — seems very disproportionate to me. I think the tag should be removed. WhinyTheYounger (WtY)(talk, contribs) 22:05, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Having a POV tag here because we are quibbling over the ORDER of how to present information in the first sentence of the lead is nonsense. POV is for differences in points-of-view of substantial content, not for how to order minutiae. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 22:48, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Arguing over whether to spell the synonym of "tint" color or colour is barely POV, but to label an entire article on Renaissance painters as "POV" because of the spelling difference is irresponsible. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 22:53, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That is totally wrong and you know it. Right now we have Kyiv listed with one pronunciation. That is wrong. That is incorrect. Plus the source used says Key-U anyway. That is why we have a POV tag. Because and editor just up and removed a pronunciation that is heavily used in English for Kyiv, not just Kiev. Right now as I write, this article is giving our readers false information. Until that is fixed it should remain a POV issue. I can't believe that we would let incorrect info stand in an article whose subject in in the news today. I would put a section POV if it was a section.... but it's the lead and I can't do that. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:48, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You could put it this way and it would be more correct and not POV, Kyiv or Kiev (/ˈkiːɛv/ KEE-ev or (/kiːv/ KEEV)[1][2] Template:Lang-uk, pronounced [ˈkɪjiu̯] ⓘ). But otherwise it infers something incorrect and that websters source needs to go unless you decide to incorporate the Key-U pronunciation which I'm not in favor of. Fyunck(click) (talk) 01:07, 26 February 2022 (UTC) Fyunck(click) (talk) 01:07, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I’m so aggravated, I just spent 2 hours gathering the correct sources/citations and typing out the argument for the correct usuage and Wikipedia said it posted but it disappeared. Very simply Kyiv is the only correct usage, used at the colligiate, academic and legal level around the English speaking world, Kiev is obsolete. Kē-ef -ev is the most widely used pronunciation of the English speaking world. KEEV and KEE-Ve are completely erroneous and made up. I will provide a full statement/argument with sources if needed after I shovel some snow....sigh.. JtLea7 (talk) 01:23, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Correct phonetic respelling/incorrect citations

KEEV or KEE-ev, is not a form of standardized phonetic transcription; the correct phonetic respelling is \ ˈki-yē-ü , ˈkēv \ or \ ‘kē-ef, -ev \ this phonic respelling is used by Merriam-Webster,* American Oxford Dictionary is /kēyif/, the majority of other major collegiate dictionary’s use \ kē-ef, -ev \ Only one IPA transcription for Kyiv and Kiev is correct, the transliteration of Ukrainian Cyrillic to English Latin is Kyiv, while Russian Cyrillic to English is Kiev. Kē-ef, -ev, is the primary pronunciation of Kyiv used by English speakers without an Indo-European/Slavic accent.

The current citation sources are also incorrect.

Very interesting info. Keep in mind, though, that the English Wikipedia is for the entire English-speaking world, not just the U.S. Also, this topic (article) is not U.S.-based. 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:FDF2:3EB5:8751:7A62 (talk) 16:17, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia uses its own phonetic respelling system, which is linked from the respelling, see Help:Pronunciation respelling key. Kahastok talk 17:53, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 February 2022

85.254.75.158 (talk) 21:42, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

KYEV NOT KIEV

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Kahastok talk 21:47, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you ThanOther (talk) 06:06, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Picture: Hungarians at Kyiv in 830

This is a picture of a modern painter (Pál Vágó), it should be writed below the picture. (The image does not reflect reality.) --Milei.vencel (talk) 08:40, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ^ Jones, Daniel (2011). Roach, Peter; Setter, Jane; Esling, John (eds.). Cambridge English Pronouncing Dictionary (18th ed.). Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0-521-15255-6.
  2. ^ Wells, John C. (2008). Longman Pronunciation Dictionary (3rd ed.). Longman. ISBN 978-1-4058-8118-0.
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