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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 2003:ca:8724:7baa:c05:9d20:33f5:e165 (talk) at 00:31, 22 April 2022 (→‎Removing coat rack tangent...). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.


Church of Satan use

Only anti-Satanic views here. Thobold (talk) 11:53, 12 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The section on Satanism is well-referenced. It's hardly controversial to highlight that the Church of Satan, for example, employs these symbols. :bloodofox: (talk) 18:13, 12 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Agree, its well sourced if you have a source saying it is not the black sun symbol please provide it and we can discus adding the denial.Slatersteven (talk) 15:29, 13 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Well-referenced? From where? I only see one citation and it's just some book by some guy with a lot of bad reviews for being biased. I can't find a single image of the Church of Satan using the Sonnenrad anywhere online. Somebody simply saying that something happened isn't proof, even if they put it in text. 7:48, 28 February 2021 (EST)

We do not say the church of satan does, we say satanism. But I can see the confusion, as we mention them in connection with other Nazi symbols.Slatersteven (talk) 13:14, 28 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Schlegelmilch 2018

  • Schlegelmilch, Dana (2018). "Ein produktiver SS-Mythos: Die Deutung der Wewelsburg in der extremen Rechten nach 1945" [A productive SS myth: the interpretation of Wewelsburg in the extreme right after 1945]. In Schulte, Jan Erik; Wildt, Michael (eds.). Die SS nach 1945: Entschuldungsnarrative, populäre Mythen, europäische Erinnerungsdiskurse (in German). Gottingen: Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht. pp. 327–342. ISBN 978-3-84-700820-0.

This source seems to have a lot to say about the symbolism of the Schwarze Sonne ('black sun'), but it's a bit much for me to go through sentence-by-sentence with a machine translator. I'm parking it here in case anyone fluent in German feels like summarizing it for the article. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 02:05, 3 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of images that demonstrate contemporary use by neo-fascist groups

File:Antipodean Resistance Logo.png
Logo of the Australian neo-Nazi group Antipodean Resistance
Logo of the Azov Battalion

Why do these keep getting removed? No real explanation has been given other than one editor not liking it. They seem to me to be useful, self evident examples of its use by neo-fascists/neo-Nazis - I can't see how they could possibly be seen as undue. This kind of example is a great way to inform readers as to how it is used by such groups. Its use by fascists is the reason I first came to this page, I saw a member of Antipodean Resistance at a Cosmic Psychos gig wearing one, he was confronted and removed from the venue as a result - I wondered what this strange esoteric Nazi symbol actually meant, so I came here. I think its safe to say most people will encounter it for the first time via neo-Nazi groups, why not give an example or two of its use by them. Bacondrum (talk) 22:38, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We don't include things because they're "self-evident", but because they've been commented on by published sources. When including the logo of a specific group, we have to be wary that we don't simply end up promoting said group. The use of the symbol by both of these groups (but not these specific images of the symbols) have been given at least a passing mention by reliable sources, so I'm fine with keeping them. Nonetheless it would be ideal to more thoroughly contextualize the images themselves. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 07:36, 16 April 2020 (UTC) (edited 20:37, 17 April 2020 (UTC); see comment below)[reply]
Hi Sangdeboeuf, thanks for the explanation. I don't think publishing them as described in accompanying text; "associated with Nazi occult circles...used by neo-Nazi, neo-völkisch, and white nationalist groups...Australian neo-Nazi group...widely associated with neo-fascism and neo-Nazism...used on the cover of the Christchurch mosque shooter's manifesto...engraved on the guns used in the attack" promotes the groups or presents them in anything but a negative light. We shouldn't censor Wikipedia based on the very slight risk that some minute number of sad boneheads think Nazi's are cool, at least I don't think so. Isn't the context the use of this articles subject by contemporary neo-Nazi groups? Bacondrum (talk) 21:37, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think this is a useful demonstration of the symbols contemporary usage, but I also think extreme caution is called for here. Anecdotally, I can think of at least one sock puppet who has methodically tweaked and inflated various Nazi symbols on relevant pages and templates to make them more prominent. This editor knew how to use wiki-jargon and sources to make it appear neutral, also. From that and other incidents, I don't think the risk is as minute as a reasonable person might think it is. After all, looking cool and being edgy is kind of all these boneheads can aspire to, so we need to make sure we're not added to that without a very good reason. Every image needs a very good reason, and plenty of context. Grayfell (talk) 22:11, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I never would have thunk it...I guess it never occurred to me that there really are some sad people out there that think this stuff is cool, I'm used to them hiding, lurking in the shadows, in chat rooms and behind esoteric symbols etc. Bacondrum (talk) 23:41, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose it may be similar to the way some used the Confederate flag as late as the 80's as a symbol of rebellion (and that alone) without really getting the historical connotations. So I think we should only use symbols that have been linked by RS to the black sun explicitly. We are dealing with a BLP, so they must also be pretty top draw sources.Slatersteven (talk) 08:58, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. I've noticed since the ABC Religion and Ethics source was added that it only gives a verbal description of the Antipodean Resistance logo. We can only infer that it's the same as the above image, which incidentally comes from the group's own website, which is not an independent RS (and is now apparently defunct as well). Ditto for the Azov Battalion, although at least there's a different image in an independent source that seems to match. Frankly, I think the article would be fine if we omitted these images. They are useful more as propaganda for making the groups in question seem "cool" and "edgy", as Grayfell said, than to explain how the symbol itself fits into the ideology and aims of neo-Nazi movements. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 20:20, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Bacondrum: by "context", I mean what the symbol signifies for the groups in question, how it's used as a recruitment tool, etc., according to reliable sources. Actually, your anecdote about the AR member wearing the logo in public would be just the sort of context we could use (if it came from a published source). It also suggests that some people think neo-Nazi symbols are "cool", doesn't it? Why else would this person have deliberately advertised his membership at a punk show? That's where the cool kids are likely to be, I'm told. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 21:02, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I see now, thanks for the thorough explanation. The last thing I would want to do is help promote these vile groups. Indeed, I've noticed Nazi's attending gigs and using more obscure nazi symbols in their attempts to recruit...years ago they essentially took over a live music venue where I grew up by kind of infiltrating the punk and metal scene. It definitely seems to be a tactic. Our own Nazi exposing legend Andy Flemming (an alias) has documented such tactic at his blog https://slackbastard.anarchobase.com/?p=22224 - I know its self published, and not really a RS as far as Wikipedia is concerned, but it is a thorough and accurate documentation of neo-fascists here in Australia. Worth a read. [1] Bacondrum (talk) 23:04, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The images are somewhat useful, but removing them was probably the right call. There is a cottage industry of people making and selling these images as patches, flags, etc. and I suspect they are using Wikimedia Commons as a resource. Thinking about it further, these images are useful to neo-Nazis specifically because they walk the line between known and obscure. They want these things to be recognized, but still rare enough to be shocking. Using them them on a Wikipedia page fits their purposes, but we should still inform people who need to know what they are looking at.
I find it mildly reassuring how insulated these bands are. It is such a crap genre that nobody else wants to play with them. Unfortunately it's still a tactic, for sure, but there is a healthy backlash. "Sonnenrad" is, of course, the name of at least one NSBM band, although one that's obscure enough that it doesn't have an article. Grayfell (talk) 02:42, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Readers can of course still see the images at the groups' respective Wikipedia articles, where it's much easier to place them in their full context. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 02:59, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sangdeboeuf thanks, I'll be more mindful of the fact that there are some sad, misled people out there that actually think this vile stuff is cool. I always assume this stuff will repulse people, as it does me. Grayfell I find it so strange that Nazis want to make art and music, that requires a lot of thought and effort...I would have thought being creative was too much work for the average bonehead...I guess that's why their music is so crap. Bacondrum (talk) 01:12, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps pages should be as neutral as possible, and not propaganda, no matter where you fall under on the political spectrum? Weagesdf (talk) 18:52, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think we are, what do you think is propaganda?Slatersteven (talk) 18:56, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Satanism section

The Satanism section seems to be getting a fair amount of attention, and probably places too much emphasis on a single source. Should we reduce this section down to a sentence or something? If so, where in the body would it go? :bloodofox: (talk) 00:04, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it needs that giant quote, but one paragraph can be sourced to a single scholar, that's not an issue necessarily. I reckon the size can be reduced, simply mentioning that it is used by satanists on occasion and how/why would suffice. The section that bothers me is Shakira, a pendant sold at a pop concert that a few people didn't like because it unintentionally resembled a fascist symbol is undue/cruft, IMO. Bacondrum (talk) 00:18, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think the Shakira thing is notable, in that it received some media attention, a rare occurence for the symbol. It'd receive mention in, say, a study on the transmission and use of the symbol, if only briefly.
The reduced section on Satanism looks good, btw. :bloodofox: (talk) 00:45, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I think it reads better now. I disagree about Shakira, a pop star selling a pendant that just happens to look like an obscure nazi symbol is cruft, IMO...but I could be convinced otherwise. Bacondrum (talk) 07:07, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We have had a few (presumably) Satanists trying to edit the article to disassociate Satanism from this symbol, which is fair enough as the quote specifically says that it is Neo-Nazi Satanists that use it and no decent, God fearing Satanist would want to be associated with them. ;-) Unfortunately, they didn't do a great job so I have reverted those changes and, instead, tweaked the section slightly to make it absolutely clear that we are only talking about Neo-Nazi Satanists and not Satanists in general. I hope that will keep everybody happy. (OK. I don't care if the Neo-Nazis are happy. I hope it will keep everybody else happy.) --DanielRigal (talk) 21:30, 9 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Article title

The black sun is an alchemical symbol and a neo-pagan symbol more generally -- I'm not sure that the Nazi symbol should be called "black sun" but rather I think it should be named "Nazi Black Sun". Their version is very specific. Not all black sun motifs are Nazi. StarTigerJLN (talk) 06:09, 5 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please provide a published, reliable source for this. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 09:06, 5 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 5 March 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. There is a strong consensus against the proposed target, since "Nazi" is not part of the name, and no consensus whether it should be moved to Black Sun (Nazi symbol), default to remaining at the current location. (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 07:17, 12 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]


Black Sun (symbol) → Nazi Black Sun (symbol) – Nazi Black Sun is more appropriate name; the "black sun" is a common Jungian and neo-pagan symbol not directly associated with Nazis and the Nazi symbol is very specific and does not look like the general black sun symbol in alchemy and neo-paganism. The current location is very unfair to alchemists and neo-pagans, who are not generally Nazi. header = Rename this? StarTigerJLN (talk) 06:13, 5 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 21 March 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (non-admin closure) Vpab15 (talk) 13:32, 26 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]


Black Sun (symbol) → Black Sun (Nazi symbol) – Following up on the above discussion. There was no consensus for this more specific title. But just regarding symbols, I'm not sure we have a primary topic (that is, the present title insufficiently disambiguates) between this and Sol niger, the alchemical symbol also called "black sun". The latter certainly has had more enduring notability. Although it's debatable whether the Sol niger is more a metaphor than a symbol per se. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 22:44, 21 March 2021 (UTC) edited 00:04, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging users StarTigerJLN, Slatersteven, Necrothesp, Beyond My Ken, Rreagan007, and Bloodofox from the earlier discussion. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 22:58, 21 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • You might note from the fact that Sonnenrad is a disambiguation page, that "Sonnenrad" ("sun gear") does not necessarily refer to a specific symbol, but more to a number of related symbols. If you're suggesting that this article should be moved to "Sonnenrad" (1) It's not clear at all that this particular symbol is the proper primary target for that word, (2) It would be a mistake to move it to a term as ambiguous as "Sonnenrad" appears to be, and (3) I don't think "Sonnenrad" passes the WP:COMMONNAME test. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:26, 27 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • A Nazi symbol used by neo-Nazis would still be a Nazi symbol -- the swastika doesn't become a "neo-Nazi symbol" because they use it. As for "fascist", I don;t thin any non-Nazis or non-neo-Nazis use it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:11, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It's notability comes from its current use not it's historic use, 'fascist' is probably best as it doesn't tie it to the historic party—blindlynx (talk) 15:46, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That topic doesn't even have its own article and there is already a hatnote at the top of this article that takes care of that. Rreagan007 (talk) 04:33, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Not Sig Runes

I disagree in this page that the spokes of the sun are sig runes. This should be removed. When you look historically at the shape of the rune, every rune shape has the horizontal portion on an angle with both the vertical portions of equal length. What is portrayed in the mosaic contains neither. This should be removed from this article unless otherwise proven as fact.

You may disagree, but please read wp:or, we need RS to disagree.Slatersteven (talk) 15:22, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm confused. So an article can be written without a RS but yet need an RS to disagree? I want to have a discussion on where is the proof or there is such
an underlying amount of circumstantial evidence that the spokes are sig runes. I see no proof or citations that they are in fact runes. Afatefulpast (talk) 15:57, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have now added a specific source solely for the claim, but I am going to suggest it was already in some of the other sources.Slatersteven (talk) 16:03, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This symbol is not used by "white nationalists"'

It is used by Nordicists, which is not the same since they also discriminate against people who are technically white, such as Arabs and other Mediterraneans. Dreadjonas (talk) 06:16, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You don't provide a proof for your assertion, which in any case would not erase the various sources saying it is used by white nationalists. Binksternet (talk) 06:56, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Are Aracs "technically" white, hell at one time even Spaniards and Italians were not white to some. We need RS saying this.Slatersteven (talk) 09:53, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"Nordicists" would just be on sub-group of "White nationalists." Most White nationalists (and from my own anecdotal experience, most Europeans and Americans), do not consider Arabs or North Africans to be White. Being White is rooted in Europe. Southern Europeans are not seen as White by some, because of some significance of Turkic, Arab, Eurasian, and other admixture.Weagesdf (talk) 18:56, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 16 July 2021

Where it says that some satanists use the symbol, the text is being too vague and broad, which has been causing some recurring misinterpretations where people [frequently on reddit] quote this article to say that "it is a satanic symbol" when it is not. There's no evidence of the Church Of Satan having used any germanic imagery [not even the wolfsangel, that is also unsourcedly mentioned on this article], nor of independent LaVeyans doing so. There is, however, some examples of members of a far-right, theistic satanist organization, called Order of Nine Angles, using it, not because they are satanists, but because they are nazi, which makes the whole thing redundant.

My suggestion is for the parts where it says just "satanism" to be replaced with either "theistic satanism groups" or "far-right satanist organizations" to make it clearer, or just "nazi occultism", as it would be more coherent with the rest of the text, since the quote from the source [12] already states that it is a "esoteric neo-nazi" thing. 2001:1284:F016:243F:593B:4073:1A15:5174 (talk) 19:58, 16 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

we need RS to support it.Slatersteven (talk) 19:59, 16 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:20, 16 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This should be updated to reflect that the Black Sun did not originate in Nazi Germany

The introduction of this article claims the Black Sun symbol originated in Nazi Germany - this is objectively false. Sources here and here. Even the ADL acknowledges it is an ancient Norse symbol, which has been found on Norse and Celtic artifacts throughout Europe and Britain. ClairelyClaire (talk) 16:57, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is about "Schwarze Sonne", a type of Sonnenrad. This is why our article also links to here [[5]].Slatersteven (talk) 17:00, 13 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It almost looks more like it is a copy of a Zierscheibe rather than a Sonnenrad. Weagesdf (talk) 08:43, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It is (most likely) just made up but inspired by a lot of things, all part of the Nazi's faked cultural heritage. That is why RS (and thus we) say they created this particular symbol.Slatersteven (talk) 11:29, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
When I looked this up before on Wikipedia, I was under the assumption that it was a symbol created in Nazi Germany, as the article says "The book links the Wewelsburg mosaic with the neo-Nazi concept of the "Black Sun", invented by former SS officer Wilhelm Landig as a substitute for the Nazi swastika...." But the ADL page says it was appropriated by the Nazis, and I have read elsewhere (not from a reliable source) that it was used in the Merovingian dynasty. If this was indeed appropriated by the Nazis, I think that it would be important to have that written in the article to make it more clear. Weagesdf (talk) 19:01, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
As I pointed out this is about a specific design and not the Sonnenrad (as we say it is a "a type of sun wheel (German: Sonnenrad").Slatersteven (talk) 19:03, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I understand. Then this specific design was invented by the Nazis, and did not exist before. Weagesdf (talk) 19:05, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, as part of Himmler's redesign of the Wewelsburg castle.Slatersteven (talk) 19:08, 12 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe Villanovian Zierscheiben (example1 and example2). The Celtic and Villanovian cultures are almost contemporary, with commercial and cultural relations, but Villanovian Zierscheibe(n) have a design more similar to the Wiligut/Himmler's Zierscheibe(n). --Skyfall (talk) 18:02, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
why is this page about a single specific design, when sunwheel and sonnenrad both redirect to it? shouldn't this entire page be a subsection of a larger sunwheel article? it's very misleading to claim it was invented by the nazis without giving any greater context that it's an historic northern european symbol, even appearing in some german house heraldry. 170.203.220.41 (talk) 21:21, 11 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No, as this is about a specific usage and corruption of it. As to the rest, see the talk page archive, as to why you are wrong (oddly you in fact make those very arguments above). Slatersteven (talk) 11:06, 12 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
you seem to be missing my point; the article should not be about a specific usage, it should either detail the full history of the symbol or clarify itself as one offshoot, anything else is misleading. 170.203.221.18 (talk) 23:10, 30 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Why not? We have an article on the sun wheel. Slatersteven (talk) 10:29, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is absolutely wrong.

This symbol can be traced back to the Norse, and is NOT a racist symbol. It is the sonnenrod, the black sun, representing events of ragnarok, when the wolf swallow the sun. The fact that this and many other norse symbols were stolen by the Nazis, does not make this a nazi symbol. 2601:280:4F81:1330:4516:62A4:74D4:4C63 (talk) 22:49, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This assertion has been made, without any proof, hundreds of times before. If anybody has any genuine proof that this is true then we are happy to look at it. If not, you are just wasting everybody's time by pointlessly bringing this up again. --DanielRigal (talk) 22:43, 11 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Or, please read all the prior talk page threads about this, we are not going to repeat ourselves. Slatersteven (talk) 11:04, 12 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ukraine

Hey SlaterSteven, we see you reverted sourced edits adding information about the symbol's widespread use by the Ukrainian National Guard. Quit trying to downplay this and face the facts. Quit the damn edit war and grow the fuck up. You support Nazis and you're taking advantage of your space on this website to promote a narrative and hide the truth.

No I reverted a series of edits that made that claim, with only one RS saying that one picture of one woman might have shown it (so no not "widespread use"). Also read wp:npa, and read wp:undue. Slatersteven (talk) 16:52, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hello there, stalwart of impartiality! I see you toned down my addition to conform with Ukraine-friendly expectations.
First of all, there are tons of images of Ukrainian soldiers wearing the Black Sun, and other Nazi symbols too. There was was not only one, it wasn't an isolated case. How many would you like to see? I suggest putting it back that many Ukrainians are wearing it.
Second, it would be difficult to verify whether they're all Azovists, but it's true that Azovists would love these.
Third, the Azov Battalion did not become a Russian propaganda talking point after this photo. They always were. Well, mostly because they're openly flying Nazi flags, wear Nazi symbols, etc. Which offers the question: why would it be propaganda? The Russians are stating a fact when they claim they're Nazis. It's not a fabrication, a conspiracy theory or anything like it.
Fourth, you deleted the source, a Newsweek article. Why though? Not impartial enough? 45.44.227.120 (talk) 04:43, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If we are going to have this can it be properly cited? Slatersteven (talk) 13:51, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]


References for the images in Ukraine

I'm having trouble adding references for the NATO tweet and other media outlets that show this symbol on soldiers in Ukraine. If anyone wants to add these references, here are the links: The (deleted) tweet by NATO: https://web.archive.org/web/20220308120102/https://twitter.com/NATO/status/1501146212938010628

GettyImagesNews tweet where the symbol in white can be clearly seen: https://twitter.com/GettyImagesNews/status/1500491702880153604 (archived at: https://web.archive.org/web/20220307002123/https://twitter.com/GettyImagesNews/status/1500491702880153604)

The tweet by the MFA of Ukraine: https://twitter.com/MFA_Ukraine/status/1501086279026552832 (archived at https://web.archive.org/web/20220308064357/https://twitter.com/MFA_Ukraine/status/1501086279026552832) — Preceding unsigned comment added by D.milivojevic (talk • contribs) 15:01, 20 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I am unsure many of these past muster as RS as we have no provinance for them. Slatersteven (talk) 15:04, 20 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

German "Sonnenrad", PMC Wagner, and New Lines's "The Wagner Group Files"

Those of you here who have been following the Wagner Group/PMC Wagner will be well aware that the group appears to be both at the very least closely connected to the Russian government and to forms of neo-Nazism. With that in mind, it would be no surprise to find Wagner (or a notable amount of its members) using this symbol. However, coverage of this has so far been lacking. In 2021, this source from New Lines Magazine (see Fairfax_University_of_America#Newlines_Institute_for_Strategy_and_Policy) connects PMC Wagner and the symbol, but confuses it with another type of Sonennrad, the Kolovrat:

His T-shirt has a “kolovrat” wheel — a folkloric, so-called neopagan symbol associated with the far right today in Russia and elsewhere, known as the Black Sun in Germany and famously commissioned by the SS head Heinrich Himmler as a mosaic in Wewelsburg Castle in Germany.

And:

The same symbol is also a favorite of one of Vorontsov’s social media friends, Mikhail Kashirsky, who, according to Myrotvorets, was a Wagner fighter and was killed in Syria in 2017. In his social media pictures, the shaven-headed and muscular Kashirsky stands proudly, baring his chest with a large Black Sun tattoo. In another photo he shows the same design on what appears to be a birthday cake, as he smiles to the camera in his camouflage, sleeveless T-shirt.

The symbol referred to so commonly today as the "Kolovrat" is a popular symbol in eastern Europe, where it is often (but not exclusively) associated with nationalist movements. The motif has a long history: It can be found on, for example, ancient Greek pottery. Meanwhile, an important aspect of the so-called Black Sun is that it is not just any Sonnenrad but that the image derives directly form Himmler's remodel of Wewelsburg, appearing to invoke SS imagery. The two are related but not the same. Additionally, some material from the ADL's entry for "Sonnenrad" was also recently reintroduced here, which I removed—for those of you who were not a part of that discussion, you can find it above. We need to keep the source threshold as high as possible on this and other articles. :bloodofox: (talk) 05:40, 27 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Bloodofox: Revisiting this topic, you made good points here. I think the issue of ambiguity with the sun wheel could be resolved with having the ADL quote in the body where other contexts are present. This would be less ambiguous than if it is in the lede, while the generic "identifying the symbol" description given by ADL is good to include as they are one of the most trusted sources on hate symbols categorizing. Could be in a "Comparison to sunwheel" subheader perhaps. As for the New Lines Magazine source, it looks like they are talking about the use of the kolovrat and the Black Sun, not confusing them together, the image given adjacent has the caption of kolovrat. ("A man wearing a T-shirt that has a “kolovrat” wheel, mentioned above) and then later mentions the Black Sun usage ("In his social media pictures, the shaven-headed and muscular Kashirsky stands proudly, baring his chest with a large Black Sun tattoo"). If attributed to the source New Lines Magazine as their interpretation, it doesn't seem problematic to describe it as in the context. -- Rauisuchian (talk) 06:51, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Removing coat rack tangent...

So I've removed the following text from the article per WP:CoatRack:

"The Azov Battalion in particular has since become a point of propaganda for the Russian government and Russian president Vladimir Putin during Russia's invasion of Ukraine, who have sought to frame the invasion as "denazification". Ukraine's president Volodymyr Zelenskyy, who is Jewish, has responded by stating that Russia's invasion of Ukraine was comparable to those of Nazi Germany and that Putin exhibits "pure Nazi behavior"."

This is veering way too far off track for an article about the symbol. It should be sufficient to simply note in passing that Azov and some other far-right groups in Ukraine have used the symbol. Discussions about Russian government claims and Ukrainian government counter-claims don't fit with an article about the symbol. Such discourse would fit with articles about Azov, the war, etc., but not with the Black Sun article. People wanting more discussion specific to Azov and Russia/Ukraine can click on the relevant articles. -2003:CA:8724:7B45:B8E5:F28E:DB4D:4EE7 (talk) 23:06, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Pretty much every up to date WP:RS that mentions this also mentions the Russian propaganda angle. Focusing on a tweet incident is more COATRACK. It should be about the usage of the symbol and the adjacent commentary that RS's provide. -- Rauisuchian (talk) 05:12, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree as the Azov was used in Russian propaganda, which has widely been called false. Slatersteven (talk) 10:32, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sigh, apparently in response to my removal of coatracking, so editors have now added even more coatracking....To be very clear, even if WP:RS say something, this does not outweigh WP:CoatRack. Go edit the relevant article, but discussions about Zelensky being Jewish are simply not relevant here, as this is an article about the symbol, NOT about Russia/Ukraine. An in-passing mention that Azov has used the symbol is sufficient. I get that some people want to push the whole "Ukraine good, Russia bad" narrative, but this article simply isn't the place, and the sort of extensive extremely tangential discussions that we've seen here are textbook examples of coatracking! -2003:CA:8724:7BAA:C05:9D20:33F5:E165 (talk) 00:31, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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