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April 17

Legends,steles etc from Ammon,Damascus,Edom,Moab on Lotlike, Abramlike figures

I have heard claims that Abraham as a bible figure didn't get going until the return of Jewish exiles to Canaan areas from Babylon gave rise to land and theology conflicts with Jews who hadn't been exiled. Since the stories in the bible frequently say that the nearby peoples were descended from Lot or Esau, couldn't theories about Abraham be checked if legends and cuneiform from places like Edom etc had stories with names similar to Patriarchs, or at least similarities in the events in the stories? Has anything like this been found or searched for in areas adjoining Israel? Thanks Rich (talk) 09:33, 17 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The surviving literature of Ammon, according to our article, is an inscription on a bottle and another on a wall of a temple. Edom is only known from the Bible and brief mentions in Egyptian and Babylonian texts. The survival of lengthy narrative texts from the ancient world is extremely unusual - our ancient literature article lists the ones we know about. Alansplodge (talk) 11:06, 17 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

thanks i'll read that article, and i should focus on Damascus and Moab and Nabatu. Rich (talk) 01:57, 18 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Richard_L._Peterson -- Your question is a little confused. Cuneiform logosyllabic writing systems were used by speakers of East Semitic in Mesopotamia and some speakers of non-Semitic languages in adjacent areas (Hittites etc). (Not counting non-logosyllabic systems which used wedge shapes, such as Ugaritic and Old Persian.) There was no cuneiform in Ammon. Few Biblical figures are mentioned in attested inscriptions dating from the Biblical period and almost all of them were kings. There are only very brief surviving texts from most of the Canaanite cultures surrounding the ancient Israelites, such as the Moabite Stone, the Balaam inscription etc, and they provide a very limited ability to cross-check what's in the Bible. The books of the Pentateuch were certainly edited towards the end of the pre-exilic kingdom of Judah (gathering in a number of sources). However, the idea that they were significantly altered after the return from Babylonian exile trends toward "Biblical Minimalism" territory... AnonMoos (talk) 03:02, 18 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed it tends towards biblical minimalism, which I don't really have an opinion on and i'm not qualified to have an opinion, although i wouldn't hesitate to share an opinion on it if i did have one. But i do think doing some archaeology in neighboring regions like Ammon might help give a possible nay on biblical minimalism, along with a possible yea on Abraham himself. Thanks for your information. Rich (talk) 06:21, 18 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If Abraham was not a legendary revered ancestor in Ammonite cultural traditions, then they wouldn't have written anything at all about him. Even if Abraham was part of Ammonite traditions, very little Ammonite writing has survived, and none of it is about Abraham. The occasions when the Bible can be usefully or meaningfully cross-checked against contemporaneous extra-biblical sources are few and far between -- for example, the Israelite king Omri is a rather minor figure in the Bible, but ancient inscriptions reveal that he made a relatively strong impression in the Syria region, where the northern kingdom of Israel was known as the "House of Omri" (i.e. area ruled over by the dynasty of Omri) for a time. There's no similar information about Abraham, and I'm not sure what has led you to expect that there would be... AnonMoos (talk) 16:48, 18 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes if Abraham wasn't a figure in Ammonite traditins, they would not have written about him. But if he had been a figure, they might have written about him. That's why i said finding any such writings in Ammon Damascus, Moab or Edom would give a nay to biblical minimalism, but didn't say it could give a yea to biblical minimalism. But finding writings about him or Lot would support a yea on Abraham. But there are many claims in the Bible concerning the origins of nearby peoples as being descended from Lot or Esau, and sthusrelated, possibly, to Abraham. Ifrecords of such stories were found in nearby regions that were not in Israel, that would point against biblical minimalism. Now, the amount of archaeological digging in Israel is probably much bigger than in the other regions I have mentioned, so it is possible that those records just haven't been found yet.Rich (talk) 05:20, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Anything found with written text on it old enough that it might have dated back to the days of the biblical Abraham, is studied thoroughly and such studies are published. If a population register had been dug up in Harran with an entry, "Arrived: Terah with his sons Abram and Nahor and daughter Sarai, from Ur", biblical literalists would have made sure we'd know all about it. --Lambiam 06:23, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Lambiam, you seem to think everything has been dug up.Rich (talk) 01:15, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm only saying that it is rather obvious that as of today no archaeological finds support a relation of any historic figure to the biblical Abraham, such as might be ascribed to records of similarly named persons. The question was if anything like this had been found and the answer is no. --Lambiam 09:55, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That is true, but I did ask if stuff like that was being searched for, not necessarily found yet...to me, it seems to me a possible way, for archaeologists who aren't biblical minimalists, to look for support for their views in the archaeology of neighboring regions.Rich (talk) 20:15, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Richard, if we don't know it exists, how do we know to look for it? If it's an unknown unknown, we don't even know where to look or what to look for if we get there. Might there have been records of Abraham which have since been lost to history? For any broad enough definition of "might", sure, why not. But that doesn't mean that we should expect such records; written records of any kind that would have been contemporaneous with Abraham are scant anyways; even trickier is that we don't even know with reliability what century he was supposed to have lived in; late 3rd millennium/early 2nd millennium BCE is probably the best we can say. The earliest extant writings to mention Abraham date from the 6th century BCE, meaning that at best we're dealing with writings from about 1500 years after he would have lived. It's a pretty big expectation that we would find anything about him from when he was alive. We don't even know with reliability where he was from, what language was spoken there, what writing system would have been used, etc. I mean, all we know is that he was from Ur of the Chaldees, but where that city was is all speculative, depending on the source you get wildly different locations (where the people would have spoken and written very different languages), as far apart as Edessa or Nasiriyah or Armenia or any of a number of other places. --Jayron 32 13:31, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ok Rich (talk) 20:15, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

But I imagine that in the regions of Damascus, and ancient Ammon, for example, there are sites, perhaps tells, where unknown unknowns might be highly concentrated.Rich (talk) 20:20, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(As well as known unknowns). Rich (talk) 03:43, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Richard, in passages where the place names are similar to the characters' names, they were simply named for the places, or in a sense the characters were the places in name and metaphor--just like Romulus. Temerarius (talk) 18:20, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry Temerarius, I don't understand what you mean. What passages have place names similar to the characters' names? Are the passages part of biblical stories or other stories?Rich (talk) 01:15, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It is common in the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible to associate place names with historical/mythical figures. For example, the Kingdom of Judah and the Kingdom of Israel were both named for the Patriarchs Judah and Israel respectively. Edom is (through some linguistic contortions) related to Esau. Ammon was named after Ben-Ammi, son of Lot. Aram was named after Aram, son of Shem. And so on. Whether the connection is forward-looking (the land and the peoples so named descended from the person in question) or backwards looking (the founding myth of the place was retconned to include the name of the place as a founder), is probably unknown here, but the practice was common, and not limited to the ancient Levant (c.f. Romulus/Rome). --Jayron 32 11:14, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting. Rich (talk) 20:16, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Amarna letters from the 1300's BCE include correspondence between Egypt and various other places including Damascus and many locations in Canaan. You might also be interested in Biblical archaeology and Biblical archaeology school. This approach has been historically dominant, for better or for worse, to the extent that pretty much anything that has been found or could be found in the Middle East has been interpreted in terms of the Bible. --Amble (talk) 21:33, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Rich (talk) 03:45, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sabra and Shatila refugee camp or camps?

Our article states that the massacre occurred in both Sabra, a neighbourhood of Beirut, and the Shatila refugee camp, but use of the phrase "the Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps" is widespread, and crops up once in our article. Is it incorrect? The caption to the top picture in our article is also unclear. Ericoides (talk) 12:39, 17 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Shatila is a formal Palestinian refugee camp, per UNRWA. The adjescent neighbourhood of Sabra, isn't a formal UNRWA camp. Here you see the two areas https://www.antiwarsongs.org/img/upl/MAP-Beirut_SabraShatila.jpg . Here ( http://reseau-terra.eu/article800.html ) you have a description of the phenomenon of Sabra. Basically the 12 official camps could not cope with population growth, and eventually adjascent neighbourhoods (like in Sabra) became de facto informal Palestinian camps. --Soman (talk) 12:59, 17 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Arabic Wikipedia has an article on Sabra at https://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%B5%D8%A8%D8%B1%D8%A7_(%D8%AD%D9%8A) --Soman (talk) 13:12, 17 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Soman. Ericoides (talk) 15:38, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

National Women's Day (India)

Greetings,

I came across a ref on Google books giving information of inauguration of National Women's Day and International Women's Year by then India's Prime Minister Indira Gandhi on Feb. 16, 1975.

Later months and years since then were politically tumultuous for Indira Gandhi, besides later UN accepted 8th March as International Women's Day; are there any instances of later year celebrations of National Women's Day in India separate than that of 8th March, the International Women's Day, by any of Congress or non Congress Government or private women organizations in India?

Oh Oh, actually I had searched for National Women's Day Pakistan and I had reached 1975 Magazine Book ref. I searched specially for India then I realized Feb 13 is annual date of National Women's Day of India. In that case my question is since which year 13th Feb has been accepted as National Women's Day of India? and 13th Feb was initiated by whom or which institution?

Thanks

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 16:10, 17 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Bookku, was not able to answer your two questions but found this in Wikipedia: Sarojini_Naidu#Legacy says “Naidu's birthday, 13 February, is celebrated as Women's Day to recognise powerful voices of women in India's history” with a citation to an offline book. So Sarojini Naidu might be a good addition to your search terms. Everything else I’m finding is confusing Women’s Day and Women’s Year, like this source where the headline says something different from the body copy: Socialist India Vol X No 12, February 22, 1975, p 33.70.67.193.176 (talk) 20:43, 18 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The same event is actually reported on twice in the issue of Socialist India of February 22, 1975. The link above leads to the second report, on page 33. The first report starts on the cover page and then continues on page 7. Indira Gandhi is quoted as declaring, “We have chosen this day, which is the first day of spring, for the “Women’s Day” because spring is the time of renewal.”^[1] I have not found any mention of Women's Day being celebrated on February 16 in any year after 1975, and also not of a reassignment of the date to February 13. --Lambiam 05:31, 19 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

April 20

Territorial Evolution of the Dutch East Indies

I noticed that these three maps showing the territorial evolution of the Dutch East Indies don't seem to be consistent: 1) https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Territorial_Evolution_of_the_Dutch_East_Indies.png 2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Dutch_Expansion_in_East_Indies.png 3) https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dutch_East_Indies_Expansion.png Is there a reliable pictorial source showing the correct historical enlargement of it? Thank you! --79.55.55.107 (talk) 22:43, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There is a map with regions colour-coded by date in this book from 1991 (itself using a 1967 source) so that should be safe from any circular wikipedia referencing. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 17:39, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, but is it only me or the shades of that map make it unusable? --79.55.55.107 (talk) 08:40, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

April 21

Japanese man who survived both American nuclear bombs during WWII?

Someone was talking about him on Twitter a few weeks ago. He was apparently working in Hiroshima when the Bomb went off. He survived, and decided that he'd had enough and that he was going to go home. So he walked home. To Nagasaki. And arrived just in time for the second Bomb to go off. And he survived that one too.

What was the guy's name? I suppose he was all like "I don't think I can take much more of this" afterwards... --146.200.128.101 (talk) 23:34, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That would be Tsutomu Yamaguchi. DuncanHill (talk) 23:39, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Here is more info for ya Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki#Double_survivors. MarnetteD|Talk 23:41, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Hard to decide whether he was the luckiest man in Japan or the unluckiest, to be quite honest. Did you ever see that aerial footage of the yanks bombing a bridge in Iraq and there was someone driving a truck on it when he either heard the plane or actually saw the bombs falling and put pedal to the metal? I distinctly remember seeing that a few years ago. The driver got over to the other side just as the bridge exploded. Yikes. --146.200.128.101 (talk) 00:00, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Luckiest Man in Iraq(Persian Gulf War) by General. Norman Schwarzkopf Alansplodge (talk) 13:21, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, for a similarly lucky/unlucky person in another field, see Violet Jessop. --184.144.97.125 (talk) 04:10, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

And, Unsinkable Sam (although possibly apocryphal). --2603:6081:1C00:1187:E1C8:EB4B:B72C:861C (talk) 19:38, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I remember this being mentioned on QI. You can see it here. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 16:59, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

April 22

Misunderstood songs played in inappropriate situations

Just thinking about this tonight too. I can think of some examples when it's happened. Maybe people only heard the chorus or looked at the song title or something and turned off their brains.

Bruce Springsteen's "Born in the USA" played as a patriotic song by politicos at rallies, multiple times.
Green Day's "Good Riddance" played at funerals (have personally been there when it happened).
The Police's "Every Breath You Take" or "Don't Stand So Close To Me" played at a wedding as the first song (have personally been there when it happened).
Boomtown Rats' "I Don't Like Mondays" played by some naff DJ in a bar as a song about not liking Mondays and not wanting to go to work or school the next day (have personally been there when it happened).
Iggy Pop's "Lust For Life" played on an advert for over-50s package holidays.
Nazi bands covering "Tomorrow Belongs To Me" and not realizing it was satire from two Jewish writers.

Any of you folks got any other good examples of this sort of thing? --146.200.128.101 (talk) 00:26, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Leonard Cohens Hallelujah played in a religious setting. -- Cimon Avaro; on a pogostick. (talk) 01:38, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think that the Rolling Stones' "You Can't Always Get What You Want" - a song about scoring drugs (heroin?) has been played by politicians as a campaign song too. When they're doing the "I know you don't like me, but I know you're pissed off with the other guy" thing. --146.200.128.101 (talk) 02:20, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"The Horse With No Name" and heroin. One of my friends used to partake (long time ago, stopped now, partially because I kept on at him to knock it off) and related to that song. Apparently the writers of it were annoyed that a lot of people did that. --Iloveparrots (talk) 02:49, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Can't recall the context precisely, but I watched something or other about drugs that used U2's cover of Patti Smith's "Dancing Barefoot", apparently because one verse ends with the word heroine. —Tamfang (talk) 03:12, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes the song A Horse with No Name was banned by some U.S. radio stations, in Kansas City and elsewhere, because of supposed drug references to heroin use. But there is no evidence that the songwriter Dewey Bunnell intended any connection. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:55, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Amerika by Rammstein, which is a criticism of US cultural imperialism. ❖_hugarheimur 07:55, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure about the appropriateness, but Monty Python's Always Look On The Bright Side Of Life has become the most popular tune to play at a UK funeral (report from 2014). AndrewWTaylor (talk) 08:06, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

David Bowie's "Fashion" played at the opening ceremonies of the 2012 Olympics, as fashion models strutted. Not sure it was "misunderstood", since lyrics such as "We are the goon squad, and we're coming to town" were intentionally omitted. Also, the Clash's "London Calling" was played in one of the James Bond movies as Bond's airline flight landed in London... AnonMoos (talk) 08:28, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Disney film The Tigger Movie made prominent use of the song "Semi-Charmed Life" by Third Eye Blind. The song is blatantly about drugs and casual sex. Lyrics like "Doing crystal meth will lift you up until you break" and "She comes round and she goes down on me" and "Those little red panties they pass the test/Slid up around the belly, face down on the mattress" are not exactly lyrics for the pre-teen crowd... But it does have a little cheery "doo-doo-doo" part that gets stuck in everyone's head...--Jayron 32 12:07, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As you already noted, Iggy Pop's song "Lust for Life" was used in several inappropriate places, including in an ad campaign for Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines. It's Iggy's love-letter to heroin. The lyrics have such gems as "Here comes Johnny Yen again/with the liquor and drugs" and "Of course, I've had it in my ear before" and "Your skin starts itching once you buy the gimmick" Johnny Yen is a character from William S. Burroughs's Nova trilogy based on a real-life heroin dealer named "Gypsy Johnny" who supplied heroin to the Laurel Canyon crowd in LA. Again, it's got a catchy chorus, so everyone ignores the obvious meaning of the lyrics. --Jayron 32 12:15, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
For a long time I assumed "I've had it in the ear before" was a boast about an unconventional sexual experience. Card Zero (talk) 05:18, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fortunate Son by CCR used at political rallies and on TV commercials for Fourth of July sales. --Amble (talk) 17:18, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm pretty sure I once heard notorious heroin song Another Girl, Another Planet in a TV ad for something. I remember chuckling at the time. Iloveparrots (talk) 21:54, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

While the song has often been interpreted to be about heroin, songwriter Peter Perrett explained: I put in drug-related imagery, but it wasn’t about drugs. At that time I was more addicted to sex and infatuation than I was to drugs. (From your source.) It's really very hard to be sure what a songwriter had in mind unless they tell us. Card Zero (talk) 05:15, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, okay. I didn't read that far down. Seems like he said that fairly recently. That song was always cited as a blatant heroin song written by a well-known, long-time heroin user. Iloveparrots (talk) 10:55, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not quite on point, but it was reported that a Democratic National Convention or similar event filled some slack time with Billy Joel's "Captain Jack", with the uplifting lines "Your sister's out, she's got a date, so you just sit at home and masturbate." —Tamfang (talk) 03:12, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I seem to recall a DJ on BBC Radio One playing the 1976 "Disco Inferno" by The Trammps directly after a news report about a fatal house fire. I'm sure there have been more sinister incidents. Here's a similar situation Martinevans123 (talk) 08:07, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Roof Is on Fire? Iloveparrots (talk) 10:56, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Tom Binns (aka "Hospital Radio DJ Ivan Brackenbury") has made most of his act out of doing this. Card Zero (talk) 15:18, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

My favourite one of these is I Want You (Elvis Costello song). A highlight from its article: Stephen Thomas Erlewine of AllMusic described it as "[among] the nastiest songs he has ever recorded, both lyrically and musically". Of course, because of the title, people play it at weddings. Says Costello: "I humbly bow my head, and can only wish those people a safe journey." -- asilvering (talk) 15:15, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have a sort of opposite example where a properly understood song was played in an appropriate situation, but was then misunderstood because the song had been misunderstood. I recall many years ago on Malaysian radio someone called in (or maybe wrote in but called seems more likely) to say they'd dedicated the song Said I Loved You...But I Lied to their boyfriend or girlfriend, I assume on the same radio station. Their boyfriend or girlfriend was unhappy with that because they misunderstood the dedication. The hosts correctly pointed out as the lyrics make clear that the song is not saying the singer doesn't love whoever he's referring to but rather talks about something stronger than love. I wasn't aware they were right at the time, I was young and don't pay that close attention to lyrics (although did always feel Every Breath You Take sounded more creepy than a love song). I don't know if I ever noticed the rest at some stage but if I did, I didn't notice enough and it was only when researching this I realised they were definitely right. While the title and another part of the chorus "Said I loved you but I was wrong" may make it an odd choice for a dedication to a romantic partner, if you listen to the next next line of each of these "'Cause this is more than love I feel inside" and "'Cause love could never ever feel so strong", it's clear it's supposed to be referring to something that's stronger than love. The lyrics outside the chorus likewise. Note that would likely have been not long after the song was released, so looking on the internet for the lyrics wasn't a thing for most people. For jokers, although it's a long time ago, I'm fairly sure it was indeed a complaint because the song was misunderstood and not "You dedicated a Michael Bolton song to me? Ew!" nor "Yo, we only went on one date. Talking about love let alone something stronger than love seems a bit premature..." nor a philosophical "there's no such thing as something greater than love.....". Nil Einne (talk) 15:43, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

At some point somebody ought to mention intentional fallacy, so I will. DuncanHill (talk) 17:22, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Mercenaries and the Geneva Convention

This has happened a few times now during the Russia/Ukraine war. People from neither country who went over to fight on their own volition, captured and accused of being mercenaries/enemy combatants.

As far as I'm aware, anyone captured as a mercenary has no protection under the Geneva Convention. They could shoot you, or send you to the salt mines to be worked to death and your own country would be all "sorry son, can't get involved, you're on your own". Is that correct, as per my understanding? If you sign up to fight in someone else's war, you sign up knowing that any consequences of your actions are on your own head? --Iloveparrots (talk) 02:07, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The International Committee of the Red Cross's customary international humanitarian law database has write ups for rules and practice concerning mercenaries. If we take this as "lawful" behavior then no, lawfully nationality on its own does not define one as a mercenary and even if a person meets the requirements of being a mercenary other protections yet apply. Whether "they could shoot you" and whether your own country could do anything about it are other questions where "lawful" may not come into play. fiveby(zero) 02:42, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Foreign volunteers in Ukraine would probably fail the test of being "motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain" and are therefore not mercenaries in the strict legal definition. However, legality seems not to be a primary consideration of the Russian Federation. Alansplodge (talk) 13:07, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

For Russia specifically, they have ratified Protocol I with Article 47's definition. This would leave the fundamental guarantees of Article 75 to all persons including mercenaries. However, Putin revoked the Article 90 statement accepting the competence of the International Humanitarian Fact-Finding Commission. They are not a party to the United Nations Mercenary Convention. Russian grave breaches and their willingness to continue their commission aside, could a Russian ever be held accountable for wrongfully designating someone a mercenary outside of Russia? "Just shooting" someone would be a war crime regardless, but say Russia were to deny POW status for some nationalities and not notify when they were taken. I don't think this is a "grave breach" where universal jurisdiction would apply. fiveby(zero) 19:20, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You might want to read our article on Unlawful combatants. While additional considerations may apply to mercenaries, it summarises some of the general issues. As noted there, the opinion of a numerous of human rights organisations is that someone is either a (lawful) combatant and as such entitled to prisoner of war, or a civilian. Either way, they are entitled to protection both under the Geneva conventions and other parts of international law like the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. If a civilian engages in unlawful acts they could potentially be prosecuted for such. So someone who isn't a (lawful) combatant who ~~attacks soldiers or equipment~~ engages in hostilities could potentially be charged for it (unlike a combatant who ~~normally~~if they followed the laws of war generally can't). And the death penalty is not currently forbidden under international law. However working someone to death on the salt mines, that one I have strong doubts. As others have said, Russia doesn't seem particularly concerned with lawfulness during their invasion, although I'd note one of the key reasons why we have a decent article on unlawful combatants with a lot of sources is for a time the US appeared to think unlawful combatants operated under some "no mans land" of international law and could be denied basic human rights. Nil Einne (talk) 15:17, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Corrected a minor error and added a clarification in my above. Anyway I just wanted to a note that while the death penalty may be allowed under current international law, this is generally following some form of acceptable trial etc. Our article on summary executions suggest it may be lawful to carry out such on unlawful combatants but I'm not convinced this is as widely accepted as it suggests. While researching this I came across [2] which interesting enough, suggests in ~1949, the USSR was one of the ones pushing for a person to either be treated as a prisoner of war or a civilian.

That opinion/analysis may be an interesting but long read. Although the focus is on other things, it does seem to be one of those who concludes those who don't meet the nationality criterion and other things to be protected under GC(IV) would be protected under article 75 of Protocol I. As fiveby(zero) said, Russia still accepts article 75 although I'd note even if Russian had not ratified or had tried to withdraw from the entirety of protocol I, there are those [3] who believe it's now part of customary international law and therefore not something anyone can reject.

BTW, the analysis I linked does talk about the right of communication a fair amount. While it can be denied, it seems clear from what it says this is intended to be only in cases where there's reasonable grounds to think the person may use the communication to give away information of military value. Again it doesn't have that much focus on the specifics of someone who's a citizen of a nominally neutral party (as I guess the OP is thinking of) who likely still has some sort of diplomatic relations with Russia.

I'd note again that other aspects of international law may come into play. I tried to find but couldn't, some discussion of how war affects article 36 of the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations which as our article says generally requires that consular officers have a right to visit their nationals who have been detained.

I would again emphasise Fiveby(zero)'s and my point that in many ways the lawfulness even under international law is often of limited relevance if the country involved doesn't care. Especially when they're very powerful and have a seat on the security council. We can look outside Russia to see examples, in relation to the Vienna convention in the LaGrand case, Avena case and Medellín v. Texas, the US basically ignored the ICJ even though at the time they'd theoretically accepted its jurisdiction. While there is a recognised Responsibility to protect, unilateral military action like under Chapter VII of the United Nations Charter is controversial and even for those who support it, most IMO won't do so just because some citizens were detained as mercenaries and denied communication. And most Western countries are already imposing considerabl economic sanctions.

Nil Einne (talk) 15:07, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ukraine related some questions

Greetings

While assisting review of an interesting DYK regarding Lancelot Lawton 1935 speech of about Ukrainian nationalism @ House of Commons UK. have been informed of this online link (Which seems unofficial) to his speech. On back drop of present Russian invasion of Ukraine the speech seems a good read. Following questions came to my mind.

a) Though there is not much to doubt speech at the shared link still Whether any link to official or authorized source can be available to the said speech at House of Commons UK.

b) Lancelot Lawton seem to speak regarding racial difference between hinting Ukrainian race being more close to westerners and Russian being a Slavic stalk mixed with mongoloids.

b1) Is it only Lancelot Lawton only speaking of this or Ukrainian and Russian harbor such racial feelings.

b2) Anyways by now human genetic studies have progressed meanwhile, is there any such differentiation exists between Ukrainian and Russian supported by genetics to any extent as claimed by Lancelot Lawton?

c) May be my impression is wrong but, what impression I am getting is Ottoman time Crimean Khanate used to attack Circassia the most then the Moscow but targeting Ukraine lesser though Ukraine was in more proximity. Why Crimean Khanate campaigns were focused more towards Circassia and Moscow than Ukraine

Thanks

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 05:58, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As to question (a), the speech was published in 1935 under the title The Ukrainian Question and Its Importance to Great Britain: Address Given by Mr. Lancelot Lawton in a Committee Room of the House of Commons on May 29, 1935 by the Anglo-Ukrainian Committee. The Anglo-Ukrainian Committee had been formed in London that year to promote the cause of Ukrainian independence, and Lawton was one of its members.^[4] (If Google Books is right, the booklet has been reprinted in 1993,^[5] but this may be one of the many errors in Google Books' database. Unlike what is suggested, The Serjeants Press, Ltd., was based in London, and as far as I could figure out no longer operative in 1993. A copy may be available at cost through Amazon.^[6]) --Lambiam 07:20, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

To be clear, Lawton's speech was not an address to the House of Commons. It was a talk delivered in a room of the House of Commons, and had as such no official status. --Lambiam 10:16, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

On question b) race is primarily a social construct, not a genetic one. It is more closely related to terms like "ethnicity" and "culture" and "people group" than to genetic classifications. The term is imprecise, and how someone like Lawton may be using it here is entirely unrelated to how people in other cultures, such as the U.S., or Brazil, or other places, may use the term. One thing to note, is that the use of the term "mongoloid" should set off red flags regarding these matters; it is terminology associated with a widely discredited racial theory. See Göttingen school of history and Scientific racism. It started with the bullshit notion that White People (Caucasians (their term) were the pinnacle of human evolution, and that you could then divide the rest of the world into two lesser races, "Negroid" covering dark skinned people (mostly black Africans and indigenous Australians) and "Mongoloid" peoples (basically Asians and Native Americans). They recognized races could mix, but only in the pejorative sense that races mixed into Caucasians diluted its purity... It is probably broadly true that, on average, Ukrainian people have more genetically in common with people immediately to their west (Say, Hungarians and Poles and Solvaks and the like) than do, say, people from Russia proper (Moscow), but that is only because on average, people tend to mate with people near them. But that's not what Lawton is going on about. He's basically saying that Ukrainians are more white, and thus more worth defending, than Russians, because Russians live closer to Asia, and thus are likely more "Mongoloid". It's racist bullshit. --Jayron 32 11:13, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This passage from the speech is also blatantly racialist and anti-miscegenation: "To the North and East there was nothing but forest and swamp inhabited by degenerate Mongol-Finnish tribes with whom the migrants of the first-mentioned stream freely inter-married. From their fusion the Russian and Great Russian stock emerged, typically Eurasian both in appearance and mentality." --Lambiam 10:24, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

" .. by degenerate .. typically Eurasian both in appearance and mentality .. " this wording very much tilts towards racism but that is UK. I asked about racism among Ukraine also because recent news reports of students experience of racism from 3 global Africa middle east and South Asia; I had not searched or gone through articles Racism in Ukraine and Racism in Russia while raising this discussion.

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 14:11, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

WWI - Americans in the Canadian military

In World War I, were there Americans in the Canadian armed forces before the United States' entry in 1917? 86.131.21.36 (talk) 19:05, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. [7] AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:14, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not mentioned in our Canadian Expeditionary Force article, a job for somebody. Alansplodge (talk) 19:21, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We have an article on the 97th Battalion (American Legion), CEF, which unfortunately fails to make explicit where the recruits originated from.

Also 212th Battalion (American Legion), CEF and 237th Battalion (American Legion), CEF. I have added them to the American Legion (disambiguation) page. Alansplodge (talk) 19:40, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The document I link above is a Masters thesis, so probably wouldn't qualify as WP:RS for our articles itself, but it has an extensive bibliography, and anyone interested in working on the topic should be able to find further sources there. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:29, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have added a brief paragraph at Canadian Expeditionary Force#American Legion, but feel free to chip in if you find anything better. Alansplodge (talk) 11:52, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Were they only the ones that went to Canada to enlist to fight in the war early? And were there hundreds or thousands of them? 86.131.21.36 (talk) 18:44, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The most detailed figures available to us are in the thesis linked by Andy in the first reply above. This gives a total of 41,078 Americans (of a total Canadian Expeditionary Force of 628,954) of whom 19,966 actually served on the Western Front. Unfortunately, we can't use this in our article because of Wikipedia's rules on using published sources. Other Americans served in the French Foreign Legion and some Jewish Americans joined the British Army to help liberate Palestine from the Ottomans. Alansplodge (talk) 08:25, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

April 23

The Story of a Flemish Farm

Our article The Flemish Farm says it is "based on an actual wartime incident". I would like to know more about that incident. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 17:44, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Flag with a History. British Pathé. Pathé News. 1942.

You might try RX for "A Belgian Squadron in Great Britain" in Message: Belgian Review, page 31 of the 1941-2 bound volume. Can't really tell from the books preview if there is anything additional. fiveby(zero) 19:51, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oliver Stewart (February 25, 1942). "Air Eddies". Tatler. Caption for photo of award of Croix de Guerre to James Rankin by Camille Gutt has The Belgian pilot who flew back to his own country and, in the face of the enemy, saved the Standard which had been buried in a remote part of the country, was also decorated with the Croix de Guerre by M. Gutt. fiveby(zero) 20:20, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Also described here - The Battle of Britain, 1945-1965: The Air Ministry and the Few . I haven't been able to find the pilot's name, perhaps not released at the time because of fear of retaliation for any family still in Belgium. Alansplodge (talk) 08:38, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Fiveby:, @Alansplodge:, @Nanonic: thank you, all interesting stuff. I have asked as suggested at RX. It would be good to know the name of this plucky Belgian. The film does make a point of the dangers faced by the families of those Belgians who had made it to Britain to carry on the fight. DuncanHill (talk) 17:00, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

American Civil War - fate of Southern outlaws

At the end of the Civil War, what happened to the Confedrate outlaws? Did they all surrender and were then executed for being criminals, instead of soldiers? Like what happened in the film The Outlaw Josey Wales? 86.131.21.36 (talk) 19:03, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Such as Jesse James? --←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:11, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

See Pardons for ex-Confederates. Alansplodge (talk) 08:46, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Even John S. Mosby and his raiders were pardoned. Clarityfiend (talk) 10:21, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean by "Confederate outlaws"? Clarityfiend (talk) 10:22, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Presumably "Many infamous outlaws of the American West started out as members of guerrilla units during the Civil War". [9] We have an article on Quantrill's Raiders, whose members included the James brothers. Alansplodge (talk) 12:59, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I mean Confederate guerrillas. 86.131.21.36 (talk) 18:14, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

April 24

Lof der onaangepastheid

Hi Folks!! Can I please have a translation of idiomatic "Lof der onaangepastheid" from Dutch to English. Its for the Riek de Raat article. I'm not big on Dutch, or small for that matter. Thanks. scope_creep^Talk 14:04, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The title is apparently modelled after Lof der zotheid, the conventional Dutch translation of Erasmus' Stultitiae laus. Since the conventional English translation is In Praise of Folly, we should use something of the form In Praise of ... . The Dutch adjective onaangepast is the negation of aangepast, meaning "adapted, adjusted". So one noun might be maladjustment, but I guess the idea of the book is better covered by In Praise of Nonconformism. --Lambiam 15:05, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Lambiam: Great bit of work. I wouldn't have got that. :) scope_creep^Talk 17:12, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]