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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 176.55.110.166 (talk) at 19:19, 2 May 2022 (→‎Change map: Moved map up so it infringes less on the subject below.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Former good articleUkraine was one of the Geography and places good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
April 12, 2006Good article nomineeNot listed
December 21, 2007Good article nomineeNot listed
January 26, 2008Good article nomineeListed
July 12, 2008Peer reviewReviewed
August 8, 2008Featured article candidateNot promoted
July 30, 2013Good article reassessmentDelisted
Current status: Delisted good article

Lead

The lead states Ukraine is the "second-largest by area in Europe" after Russia? Its the second-largest what? A country right? Who removed the word "country"? You can also simplify the sentence by simply stating that "Ukraine is the second-largest country in Europe, after Russia" Thesickreservoir (talk) 10:53, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This sentence has gone through a lot of revisions and never seems to quite gel. It is trying to convey that, looking only at territories within the generally accepted limits of the European continent, Ukraine's territory is larger than that of any other country except Russia. The "within the generally accepted limits of the European continent" is needed, because both France and Denmark include territories outside of those limits that make them (as a whole) larger than Ukraine. The territories of France and Denmark within Europe are, however, smaller than Ukraine. It might be best to just remove this from the lead and only discuss it in the article, where the qualifications can be explained better. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:47, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I do not think there's a solid reason to remove this sentence from the lead, as its very important. And besides, its a true geographical fact, and there's nothing "controversial" here. Ukraine is the second-largest country IN Europe. France and Denmark (jonas) are only larger when considering their territories outside of Europe, and why should the latter be included anyway? In that case, we can also include Siberia, and then what? When we say Europe, we mean the continent of Europe. There's also a FAQ above for that. Thesickreservoir (talk) 13:01, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that there is an FAQ about this shows that people don't understand what is being said here. It is also true that it is the largest country "in Europe", as all larger countries have at least part of their territory outside of Europe. Unless the sentence is phrased extremely carefully, it is going to be open to misinterpretation. Also, it is not "very important", it's trivia. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:25, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"It is also true that it is the largest country "in Europe", as all larger countries have at least part of their territory outside of Europe."
Its basic geography. Every continent has its limits. For Europe, its the Ural Mountains. The lion's share of Europe lies within Russia's western borders, roughly 40%. Ukraine is not the largest country in Europe, not even close, but the second-largest. Russia's European territory is about 6 times that of Ukraine.
France and Denmark are much smaller than Ukraine, when it comes to territory on the continent. Reunion, Guiana, or Greenland aren't in Europe. No reliable source claims France, or alternatively Denmark, is the second-largest country in Europe. Nor does anybody consider a territory located in one continent as part of another continent. Thesickreservoir (talk) 13:29, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
France and Denmark are still "in Europe", English is sadly not that clear. I would agree with Khajidha that this is a bit of trivia that is probably not worth focusing on in the lead. CMD (talk) 13:52, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think a description about a country's geographical position is trivial. Every major reliable source, including Britannica, refers to Ukraine as the second-largest country on the European continent. One can easily use multiple reliable sources to back the sentence. I still don't know since when parts of France in South America and Greenland are considered "Europe" however....
https://www.britannica.com/place/Ukraine (Britannica): "Ukraine, country located in eastern Europe, the second largest on the continent after Russia."
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-18018002 (BBC): "Europe's second largest country, Ukraine is a land of wide, fertile agricultural plains..."
https://kids.nationalgeographic.com/geography/countries/article/ukraine (National Geographic): "Located in eastern Europe, Ukraine is the second-largest country on the European continent after Russia."

Thesickreservoir (talk) 13:57, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"In Europe" could quite easily be taken to mean "entirely in Europe". And Ukraine is the largest country entirely in Europe. As Chipmunkdavis said, "English is sadly not that clear". --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:29, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Its abnormal to sideline 40% of Europe's landmass, just to state Ukraine is the largest country "entirely" in Europe. Seems superficial. And besides, a little tweak could fix the entire issue. It is the second-largest country within Europe, after Russia, which it borders to the east and north-east.
Also, see List of European countries by area. Thesickreservoir (talk) 14:42, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You call it "abnormal", I call it "the only way to be completely clear" what you mean. It's not that French Guiana and Greenland are considered part of Europe, it's that they are parts of the countries France and Denmark. When you list the "largest countries in Europe" it is ambiguous as to whether you are ranking them by the amount of territory they have as a whole or just on territory within Europe. You'll notice that even the list you linked to explicitly excludes territories outside of Europe from the ranking. None of the versions you have suggested do that. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:01, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Europe - as in the continent of Europe. Excluding non-European territories of transcontinental countries, or overseas territories. Ukraine is the second-largest country by area within Europe's continental limits, after Russia's large western part. I'm sure Greenland or Reunion does not have land area within Europe, or even fall within the limits of the continent. As I have listed above, multiple reliable sources, mention Ukraine as the second-largest country in Europe.
Or another sentence could be used "It is the second-largest country on the European continent, after Russia, which it borders to the east and north-east." This should be clear enough. Thesickreservoir (talk) 15:12, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"Ukraine is the second-largest country by area within Europe's continental limits". Still not clear. Because the country of Russia is not "within Europe's continental limits". What is meant is that "Ukraine's territory within Europe's continental limits is larger than the territory within Europe's continental limits of any country other than Russia". All that these reliable sources prove is that other writers are also phrasing things poorly. And your "second-largest country on the European continent" is still less clear. As Denmark, France, and even Kazakhstan are "countr[ies] on the European continent". --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 16:14, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"Ukraine's territory within Europe's continental limits is larger than the territory within Europe's continental limits of any country other than Russia"
That's one way to overcomplicate a simple sentence, most people would not read through the entire sentence, and even if they do, they'll still be left confused.
And, it seems most people have phrasing problems according to you. And, since you're now challenging reliable sources, which Wikipedia is literally based on, there will be no outcome of an argument with you. Why haven't you dragged Turkey in yet, by the way? That's really weird considering you didn't even spare Kazakhstan.
Europe is a continent, spanning some 10 million square kilometres, and within it, Ukraine's land share is the second-largest. Kazakhstan's territory in Europe doesn't even land it in the top 10. Not to mention literally nobody in the world considers it a part of Europe. The countries you mention are partially in Europe, but their European parts do not make them the second-largest country in the continent. Thesickreservoir (talk) 17:36, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Lead also has a grammatical mistake making the relative position of Russia and Ukraine swapped from reality. Currently it says "It [Ukraine] is the second largest country in Europe after Russia, which it borders to the east and north-east." This should read "...which borders it to the east and north-east." Otherwise the sentence as it is written is claiming Ukraine is to the East and North-East of Russia. Fritzophrenic (talk) 00:11, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed thanks Chidgk1 (talk) 12:06, 8 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Mention invasion in hatnote?

I am starting a discussion on this to avoid an edit war. Should the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine be mentioned in the hatnote? I believe it should not per WP:RELATED, which states that an article should not be linked in a hatnote just because the articles are related. I think this is a clear violation of the guideline.

The current is:

{{About|the country of Ukraine|the ongoing conflict|2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine|other uses|Ukraine (disambiguation)}}

It should just be:

{{Other uses}}

--The Tips of Apmh 15:20, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes let's do what is best for our readers to find information. Can be removed when this calms down. There's clearly a benefit in having it there for ease of access...... as the title of the article may not be easy to search for or find. Always best to think of readers over the MOS when things make common sense Wikipedia:Readers first. Is it detrimental in some sort of fashion?Moxy- 00:29, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Which guideline states the ease of access for readers is a priority over the MOS? Isn't the purpose of the MOS to benifit readers in the first place? I'm willing to bet that a good majority of people who go to the Ukraine article aren't trying to specifically go to the invasion article. The Tips of Apmh 18:03, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Of course the invasion should be mentioned in a hatnote. Today for almost all people "Ukraine" is short for "the war in Ukraine" (and does not refer to its climate or agriculture). At some point in time the war will be over, and the hatnote will no longer be appropriate.2A02:A463:EC02:1:B62E:99FF:FE4C:71C3 (talk) 10:28, 7 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
for almost all people "Ukraine" is short for "the war in Ukraine" (and does not refer to its climate or agriculture)
Do you have a source for that? The Tips of Apmh 13:44, 7 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The invasion absolutely should not be included in a hatnote.  Ved havet 🌊 (talk)  14:22, 14 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Suppression of language

>The tsarist autocracy established a policy of Russification, suppressing the use of the Ukrainian language and curtailing the Ukrainian national identity.[68] The western part of present-day Ukraine was subsequently split between Russia and Habsburg-ruled Austria after the fall of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth in 1795.<

The source is hidden behind a paywall but concerns suppression of the language in the 1860s. Should the order of these two sentences not be reversed? If suppression was widespread I'd expect multiple sources to be available. Nine-and-fifty swans (talk) 21:56, 15 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 April 2022

Minor yet valuable request to correct spelling from Kievan to Kyivan for consistency. (e.g. Kievan Rus' -> Kyivan Rus') Within the "Ukraine" page context it has a lot of sense to not mixup those spelling as the name of the capital is Kyiv, so all derivatives in it should have 'Kyiv' root accordingly.

Many thanks, Andrii

e.g.

change from:

The territory of modern Ukraine has been inhabited since 32,000 BC. During the Middle Ages, the area was a key centre of East Slavic culture under Kievan Rus'

to:

The territory of modern Ukraine has been inhabited since 32,000 BC. During the Middle Ages, the area was a key centre of East Slavic culture under Kyivan Rus'

and so on... Gooworld (talk) 08:44, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Our article is currently at Kievan Rus', if you wish for that title to change you should raise it at that talk page. CMD (talk) 11:19, 16 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Change map

Ukraine

I heavily suggest that the map of Ukraine is changed back to the older version used before the invasion by Russia. The older one showed Ukraine's position in Europe while still showing the disputed territories (before the invasion). Thus showing why Ukraine is important to the continent. As well its is easier to see the location of Ukraine in the Europe rather than on a globe. -- Chxeese (talk) 16:56, 18 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Islam in Ukraine

Muslims in Ukraine formed %0.9 (not a portion of the %0.2) of the population in 2016 according to this citation in the article Islam in Ukraine. It is more than %1 at the moment. Please update the article accordingly. 176.55.110.166 (talk) 19:17, 2 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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