Talk:Minneapolis

Welcome GOCE

At SandyGeorgia's suggestion, I made a request for copyediting at the Guild of Copy Editors. User:Baffle gab1978 has begun. We are awfully lucky to have them. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:40, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Question

Greetings, User:Titi68999. Pardon the question but may I ask why you have a sudden interest in this article? I would like to make room for our guest from Wikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors. Those services are really rare. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:30, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi. just trying to clean up one section about trails in the city. kept on not liking how I was rewriting the one half a sentence so apologies for the several edits. I have am done now. You are welcome to read it; it is the "many parts of the city; such as" part. I tried to keep out of the way for GOCE. so thankful for their diligent work. That is all I came here for! thank you for "gate keeping" this article. -- Titi68999 (talk) 23:35, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi both; thanks for your comments and confidence; I do do my best to make text as clear and concise as possible but I'm aware sometimes the results are a bit on the sterile side. As a non-US editor, I can also sometimes make mistakes with particular US-English terminology and grammar (although not as many as I used to), so I do appreciate corrections in these areas. Anyway, this article will take a few more sessions to complete so thanks for your patience. Cheers, Baffle☿gab 07:45, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Further to the above, note Titi68999 has been blocked as a sockpuppet account. @SusanLesch:, maybe look out for further socking on this article. Cheers, Baffle☿gab 06:59, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

Baffle☿gab, you're doing great! I am offline today and will be back later this week. Yes, they were the 11th known sockpuppet from the same account. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:04, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

No worries; I'm glad you're aware of the socking. I've now finished my c/e. Good luck with the article and cheers, Baffle☿gab 02:53, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

		The Copyeditor's Barnstar
		Thanks to Baffle☿gab for finishing our big project. Much obliged. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:45, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Removed text (c/e)

CC-BY-SA; I've remove the following text from the article; I'm leaving it here, with its refs, for future editors; see article history for full attribution. Baffle☿gab 04:48, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

From "Culture --> Music"

(removed because it's in the wrong article—this article is about Minneapolis, not the music director of an orchestra):

Vänskä's affinity for fellow Finn Jean Sibelius was recognized by a Grammy nomination in 2013 for a recording of "Sibelius: Symphonies Nos. 2 & 5," and the orchestra won a Grammy Award in 2014 for "Sibelius: Symphonies Nos 1 & 4."

References

Cheers, Baffle☿gab 04:48, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Minneapolis Collage 2022.png

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 18:51, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 June 2022

Sock request

Looks like a lot of vandalism so it should be restored back a few days to the most recent version that is not vandalism. AncientCastle (talk) 19:44, 22 June 2022 (UTC)  Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. EvergreenFir (talk) 19:50, 22 June 2022 (UTC) To be more clear I want to restore the version on 19:47, 14 June 2022. It is the most recent non-vandal version. The one that is up is riddled with the vandal’s edits. Thank you. AncientCastle (talk) 19:58, 22 June 2022 (UTC) I honestly don't see any vandalism between the two versions (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Minneapolis&diff=1094466116&oldid=1093135484). Rather the most recent version removed some vandalism in the section on Prince. EvergreenFir (talk) 20:01, 22 June 2022 (UTC) Evergreen, Your edits are helpful, I just think we should go and revert to pre IP disruption which was on the 14th of June. Restored version (one currently up) is a restored sock puppet version so it should be removed back to the 14th. Thank you. AncientCastle (talk) 20:07, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Minneapolis Collage 2022.png

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:36, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

To do

Things that need doing. We've lost time to a sockpuppet farm but we've gained an expert copyediting pass, for which I am grateful.

• In Minneapolis#Waterpower;_lumber_and_flour_milling. Minneapolis led the world in flour milling for 50 years.
• tunnel collapse at St. Anthony Falls in 1869
• In Minneapolis#Demographics. A 2015 report found racial and ethnic minorities in the city were unequal in education, with 15 percent of Blacks and 13 percent of Hispanics holding bachelor's degrees compared with 42 percent of the White population. While the standard of living is rising with incomes among the highest in the Midwest, in 2015, the median household income among minorities was below that of Whites by over $17,000 and the poverty-rate gap between Blacks and Whites was the widest in the US.
• The section Minneapolis#Annual_events needs sources.
• Replace source: Encyclopedia Britannica, used in the Religion and Economy sections.

References

-SusanLesch (talk) 13:48, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

Latitude, longitude

Is it worth mentioning the fact listed in 45th parallel north? JDAWiseman (talk) 22:14, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Is this history of Minneapolis or history of racism in Minneapolis?

Thread contains sockpuppet content

Seriously, the History section is 50% an article explaining racism in the city and nothing else important. Some people are actually interested in the history of Minneapolis. I recognize some of that is important but it’s not the history of Minneapolis it’s the history of discrimination in Minneapolis which maybe could be another section? Or shortened? This section also seems quite opinionated in some parts of it, so I’m not surprised it’s locked to prevent changing it…. 69.126.152.193 (talk) 23:49, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Greetings, 69.126.152.193. Do you have a specific suggestion? What areas interest you, like parks, architecture, or the economy? If you make an edit request, I bet somebody would be happy to help. Your edit history suggests that you have an interest in racism in the US. Minneapolis has a high degree of racial disparities, and a history of causing problems for many groups: Native Americans, Jews, Germans, persons with developmental disabilities, Blacks. That history can't be extracted from the article. Sorry. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:14, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

The IP editor makes a valid point. The history and demographic sections give undue weight to social tensions and racism. I typed "history of Minneapolis" into Google. These were the top returns:

• Britannica - no mention of racism.
• USHistory.com - no mention of racism.
• Minnesota Historical Society - no mention of racism.
• Meet Minneapolis - no mention of racism.
• Life in Minnesota - One sentence about racial issues. Magnolia677 (talk) 18:08, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

You omitted one hit from my first page of Google results: "New book explores cycles and whiplash of Minneapolis history," which is a review of the book by Tom Weber, published by the Minnesota Historical Society Press, just after COVID-19 started and just before George Floyd's murder. Chapter 7 is "Discrimination, Redlining, and the KKK." Mr. Weber's book is a source for this article.

We can't use Britannica as a source. Your other hits are tourism hubs:

• USHistory.com is created by Online Highways, "a leader in Internet travel information and reservations."
• Life in Minnesota strives "to deliver stories that brighten your day, build your pride in Minnesota"
• Meet Minneapolis says: "our mission is to positively impact the economic and social prosperity of our Minneapolis community by attracting visitors, meetings and events that directly support jobs and local businesses, and generate critical revenues."
• The Minnesota Historical Society page you cite is a history of the Mill City Museum (for tourists, suggested further reading includes Betty Crocker, and the Pillsbury Bake-Off).

-SusanLesch (talk) 19:27, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

@SusanLesch: No need to discredit the sources, you obviously know I was just using them as an example of how the "high degree of racial disparities" is not top-of-mind to those writing about Minneapolis (and yes, encyclopedias can be used as sources). But you offered great support to our point here. In Weber's book, just one out of 12 chapters is devoted to racism, yet in this Wikipedia article nearly a half of the history and demographic sections are devoted to the topic. It is undue, unbalances the article, and needs to be trimmed. Magnolia677 (talk) 21:22, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

What? I don't understand why discredited sources would be used to say what is top-of-mind.

Have you read Tom Weber's book? The topic is covered explicitly in chapters 7, 8, 9, and 10. You've entirely missed his point. His prologue concludes:

The overarching goal is to take what may be the most significant issue facing contemporary Minneapolis—the crippling disparities among its people—and present a history that examines why those disparities exist, even as the city makes a legitimate argument for itself as a must-visit or must-live kind of place.

For Minneapolitans seeking solutions to these inequities and disparities, to ignore the city's history of discrimination, racism, and inequality is to condemn such an effort to failure.

You might also consult the review mentioned above. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:06, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

References

It's easy to cherrypick sources to make a point. These sections are fundamentally imbalanced. The input of others would be appreciated. Magnolia677 (talk) 15:01, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

"Britannica] - no mention of racism." I have been claiming that Britannica is a crappy source for years, a poor excuse of an encyclopedia. Thank you for pointing out that they are whitewashing the history of Minneapolis. Most of the other sources you cited are not remotely reliable. Dimadick (talk) 09:13, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

I would have to agree that the Minneapolis article appears to give an overwhelming amount of attention to racial issues and racism. There are full sections on racism in the History section, the Geography section, and the Demographics section. I understand that racial inequality is an important part of United States history, but this article is over the top. Additionally, the amount of this article devoted to racial issues is disproportionately large compared to other major city pages, including cities in the south where slavery and Jim Crow were, at one time, legal. While Minneapolis certainly has its flaws with respect to racial equality, many of the issues outlined in this article are issues in the United States in general, not something specifically insidious about Minneapolis. Some of the sections are clearly biased generalization. Here’s one example:

“Some historians [who?] have said at various times [when?], some White Minneapolitans [who?] have used discrimination based on race against the city's non-White residents. As White settlers displaced the indigenous population during the 19th century, they claimed the city's land.”

This is an extremely narrow view of history. While it is true that Europeans took Native American lands, that is true of the United States in general. It is not specific to Minneapolis. Additionally, the majority of Europeans who settled in Minneapolis were not landowners; they were poor, working class laborers drawn to the city’s nascent milling industry and often worked in terrible conditions.

That’s just one example, but by means the only example, of how the subject of race and racism has come to dominate an article about a city. Much of this content was added in the wake of George Floyd’s murder, and while it’s important to touch on this history, it has taken over what should be a multifaceted article about a major city. Much of racial-focused content in the History, Geography, and Demographics sections need to be slimmed down considerably re-written in a more objective manner to refocus the purpose of this article. Urbanplanning2000 (talk) 23:51, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

The example sentence you quote is cited. Did you read the source?

I don't know where you're from, but probably unlike your hometown, Minneapolis has among the poorest record in the country of racial disparities in many different categories (graduation rates, unemployment, homeownership) thus the topic appears in multiple sections. Sorry but to remove them would be to say, "Oh, that's just America for you." -SusanLesch (talk) 15:12, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

I never said that the content should be removed; I said it should be slimmed down and rewritten from a more objective point of view. Where I’m from has no relevance to this article, which is for all users of Wikipedia who are interested in learning about Minneapolis. The fact that you are so defensive at the mere questioning of this content suggests that it has been written from a subjective rather than objective lens. For what it’s worth, Minneapolis was also a city that played a key role in the civil rights movement, with Hubert Humphrey campaigning with civil rights as a key part of his platform and later becoming a lead author of the civil rights act of 1964. Of course this article makes no mention of this, nor does it spend much time mentioning the other progressive legacies of Minneapolis, in its attempt to paint the city in such a negative light. Urbanplanning2000 (talk) 23:28, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Simply not true. I don't wish to discuss this with you further. The History section says, "Mayor Hubert Humphrey helped the city establish fair employment practices and by 1946, a human-relations council that interceded on behalf of minorities was established." -SusanLesch (talk) 23:38, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 July 2022

Thread contains sockpuppet content

Can you write that it's a very large city, as it's the largest city in Minnesota? Whislife (talk) 04:41, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:59, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Dakota

Progression (1, 2, 3) and Magnolia677 versions (A, B, C). Magnolia677, how are your edits an improvement?

1 According to DownBeat, Dakota Jazz Club has been one of the world's best jazz venues for 25 years.

A (removed)

2 The Dakota Jazz Club on the Nicollet Mall offers exceptional food along with jazz greats, attracting national audiences.

B The Dakota Jazz Club offers food and jazz music.

3 The Dakota, formerly the Dakota Jazz Club and Restaurant, expanded its offerings in 2018 from only jazz to include more genres of music. Executive chef Remy Pettus delivers the club's menu, created by a James Beard Award-winning chef.

C The Dakota is a musical venue.

References

-SusanLesch (talk) 17:59, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

@SusanLesch: Could you please fix the links above so they all point to a diff. Without pointing to a diff, there is no easy way to view the very detailed edit summaries I left for each edit. Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 20:29, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Your precious edit summaries are already provided in every link per WP:CDLG. For example, B links to "This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Magnolia677 (talk | contribs) at 10:31, 8 September 2022 (unencycopedic puffery, per MOS:WTW)." I'll see what I can do. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:37, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the compliment! I put a lot of thought into those edit summaries. Let me try to summarize them again:

• A consensus of editors has thoroughly rejected the addition of unencyclopedic "best in the city" magazine rankings.
• The location of this restaurant is irrelevant, because Wikipedia is not a travel guide.
• Wording such as "exceptional food along with jazz greats, attracting national audiences" is what Wikipedians call puffery, and it is both unencyclopedic and unwelcome.
• Including text like "Executive chef Remy Pettus delivers the club's menu, created by a James Beard Award-winning chef", is unencyclopedic and promotional ("award-winning" is specifically mentioned at MOS:PUFFERY). Moreover, Remy Pettus is not notable, and that the menu at this restaurant was created by an award-winning chef is irrelevant and promotional. Magnolia677 (talk) 23:33, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Well, that's your spin on your edit summaries. You haven't answered my question or moved the discussion forward. I enlarged your results above. How are they an improvement?

Initially, I went along with the Chanhassen RFC. I applied it in this article. [1] [2] However it raised questions, and your application includes your bias. I asked for your input at US:CITIES.

Of course I've made mistakes here but generally I subscribe to William Zinsser's On Writing Well. Normally the fewer adjectives and adverbs the better. But you left us with bland, bald statements devoid of life. Where is the featured article you wrote in this style, please? We have guidelines at WP:FAA, WP:WIAFA.-SusanLesch (talk) 14:38, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

These improvements have brought the article more in compliance with established policies and guidelines. Regarding "featured articles", the second sentence at WP:FACRITERIA states "In addition to meeting the policies regarding content for all Wikipedia articles", and one of those policies is What Wikipedia is not. More importantly, Wikipedia's readers expect honest encyclopedic content when they visit an article about a great city like Minneapolis, not trivial details and hyped-up ballyhooing about how sophisticated and "award winning" the local restaurants are. We are not the Minneapolis Tourist Board. Magnolia677 (talk) 15:22, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

I don't know how it is that you think you are capable of reading the minds of our readers to somehow know that they are not interested in information that says that a Minneapolis restaurant won awards for its food. I'm interested and I believe that a lot of readers are as well. Please quit scouring articles of everything you deem to be trivial details and hyped-up ballyhooing as though you are an authority in such matters. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sectionworker (talk • contribs) 16:50, 10 September 2022 (UTC) Sectionworker (talk) 16:54, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

--Magnolia677 (talk) 13:18, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Deletions by Magnolia677

User:Magnolia677, this is an objection to your recent edits. Once in a while you make an improvement that is accepted with gratitude (for example, wording colonization -> settlement [3]). However as stated, I don't believe you are knowledgeable enough to say unilaterally who and what is notable. You should use the talk page before making your proclamations. Based on past observation, you don't read carefully enough. (In some cases, you didn't read Wikipedia rules thoroughly. For example, [4], [5]. And of course you famously misread a menu (oyster mushroom != smoked oyster) and compared Owamni to the Ponderosa Steak House and did not apologize.)

Your distinctions are based only on your opinions, as in this edit summary: ""What Is Northern Food?" isn't about Minneapolis, see https://artfulliving.com/what-is-northern-food/; just because a non-notable local author won an award for a story that mentions Minneapolis, doesn't mean it should be included in the cuisine section of this article ...more puffery."

The author is not non-notable. Hoffman is "anthologized in the last four editions of Best American Food Writing (2014–2017). He won the 2014 IACP Bert Greene Award for Narrative Culinary Writing, and was a 2015 Finalist. He is a five-time AFJ Food Journalism Award winner, (2013–2017)." Now he won this major journalism award from James Beard in 2019.

What a shame. If you'd really read Hoffman you'd learn something. "There are only four regions in the world this rich in soil: Eastern Europe, northern China, the Argentine Pampas and here...." Glaciers weren't precisely controlling their flow over only the city boundaries of a future Minneapolis. This article is written from Michigan, North Dakota, and from Upton 43, and Polk Street NE, both squarely inside Minneapolis. It's about food from Minneapolis as much as anywhere. Alex Roberts, Gavin Kaysen, Yia Vang, Ann Kim, and Christina Nguyen, to name a few, all work there. I'm restoring this sentence not to edit war but to restore order here. Please refrain from making blanket, hurtful, drive-by claims. -SusanLesch (talk) 02:45, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Hoffman wrote an excellent magazine article in 2018 called What is Northern Food?, which was awarded a James Beard Foundation Award: 2020s, one of 42 award winners in 2019. The text User:SusanLesch wishes to restore is: "Steve Hoffman won the James Beard distinguished writing award for What Is Northern Food?."

This sentence should not be restored for the following reasons:

• Hoffman is not from Minneapolis, and according to his personal biography, lives in nearby Shoreview, Minnesota. He mentions Minneapolis not once in his biography.
• What is Northern Food? is not specifically about Minneapolis, and in the 14 sections of this magazine article, only two sections are specifically about Minneapolis.
• Neither Steve Hoffman, nor the magazine article he wrote, are notable on English Wikipedia.
• The consensus of editors who wrote WP:USCITIES#Arts and culture nowhere suggest the inclusion of authors from nearby cities who won awards for magazine articles.
• The sentence is unencyclopedic and is only being used to puff up the article: "Hey look world! A guy who lives in a city very close to Minneapolis was one of 42 people who won a notable award for a magazine article he wrote!"

It would be great if some of the content from Hoffman's excellent magazine article could be used to improve this Wikipedia article, for example, to provide readers with insight into some unique feature about food in Minneapolis, or if his magazine article were added to the "further reading" section, but the revision proposed by User:SusanLesch is an unencyclopedic promo that adds nothing of benefit. Magnolia677 (talk) 13:18, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

References

Absurd. Mr. Hoffman isn't required to maintain residence where you want him to live. For example among the authors in Works Cited, Elizabeth Hinton is a professor at Yale University, which is in New Haven, Connecticut. Gary Clayton Anderson works for the University of Oklahoma. Second, Hoffman's article opens with estimations of Minneapolis food. He closes with an honor roll of Minneapolis chefs. In keeping with his essay, he took a look around a greater geographic area. Finally, Wikipedia doesn't say that Katharine Hepburn won 4 of the 100 to 120 Oscars awarded to somebody during her career. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:04, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Extreme straw-grasping to start saying that Hoffman lives in a "nearby city". He lives in a Mpls/St. Paul suburb, not a nearby city. Nobody says "the city of Mounds View", for example, and etc. The area between all of these suburbs is built up and not empty land. Sectionworker (talk) 22:30, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Image location

Please note that I have started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Images#Images on the right...again. Magnolia677 (talk) 19:28, 11 September 2022 (UTC)