Talk:Pub/Archive 5

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'Public house' or 'British Public house'

After "A public house, informally known as a pub, is a drinking establishment fundamental to the culture of Britain,[1][2] Ireland,[3] Australia[4], Newfoundland and New Zealand" this article presents itself as dealing only with the British instance of this establishment. As such, it needs a new title or a total overhaul.Sir smellybeard (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:36, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

"Public house" is still the appropriate title as being correct usage. The public houses of Ireland are covered in a separate article. Any reliably sourced information about the pubs of Australia, Newfoundland and New Zealand may be added.Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 11:22, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved per request. Favonian (talk) 20:26, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

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Public house → Pub – Per WP:COMMONNAME. The name in common use is "pub". Articles, books, media, pub companies, and local authorities all use pub. "Public house" is an anachronism, as that is an older usage, more properly belonging to the Victorian period when a Public house was under legislation distinct from some other forms of licensed premises such as Beer houses - such usage did continue into the early part of the 20th century, but in today's society people no longer refer to a pub as a public house. Also, there is no current official usage of the term "public house" - modern legislation refers to "licensed premises". SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 16:42, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Survey

• Support as nominator. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 16:50, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
• Support per nom. The etymology is clear enough to speakers of British English, and "public house" may not even register with many American English speakers. --BDD (talk) 17:53, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

• Neutral I am from a generation that prefers to educate and enrich people's minds by using correct and proper names or terms. However, I recognise and accept that the current texting, grunting generation prefers to reduce knowledge to generic mush, by dumbing down to the lowest common denominator. I don't have the energy to carry on arguing against this every time the renaming is brought up. 21st CENTURY GREENSTUFF 18:15, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

• Support. No one calls it a "public house". Film Fan (talk) 21:31, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

• Support per WP:COMMONNAME, WP:PRIMARYTOPIC (this article is primary for Pub as Pub redirects here) and the natural, recognizable and concision naming criteria. In the past it has been argued that "public house" refers to something more precise than "pub", and that more precise definition is the topic of this article. But I'd like to know what, if anything, qualifies as a pub but not as a public house.

  It's true that there are "pubs" in the United States that are not called "public houses", but is there really a difference of significance? Does not the topic of this article extend to British-like or Irish-like pubs in the U.S? I presume it does, but it's such a minor point it really doesn't matter if it doesn't. That's certainly no reason to title this article with the more formal lesser-known, lesser-used and unnecessarily long title. Besides, if Pub and Public house refer to different concepts, then Pub should not be a redirect to this article, but should be the title of its own article. Since they do refer to the same article, the longer less-commonly-used name should redirect to the shorter more-commonly used name, Pub. --Born2cycle (talk) 01:02, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

• Support per WP:COMMONNAME, with appropriate redirects. Barnabypage (talk) 12:42, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

• Support. On The Telegraph site, I got 39,400 results for pub site:telegraph.co.uk, 5,310 for "public house" site:telegraph.co.uk. If you consider that American readers will assume that a public house is one that isn't private, there is even more reason to move the title. Kauffner (talk) 17:16, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

• Neutral PH (disambiguation)#Other uses notes the use of the abbreviation "PH" on maps. I'd say this is unlikely to change, because it's a shorter term than "pub". -- Trevj (talk) 10:04, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
• Support. As an American, I know both refer to the same thing, but the word "pub" must get used millions of times a day, and "public house" hardly ever. Speciate (talk) 19:28, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

• As "public house" was the formal usage for the majority of 19th/20th cent. it is probably the better choice of heading. "PH" glossed as "public house" is still used on Ordnance Survey maps where these are shown individually.Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 18:32, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
  • The most common use in today's language is what matters--not what was used 100 years ago. Film Fan (talk) 10:15, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
• Whatever the outcome, both terms are required early in the lead, per MOS:LEADALT. -- Trevj (talk) 10:04, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

As in:

"Pub (IPA: pʌb), a colloquial abbreviation for the traditional term Public House, is a drinking establishment fundamental to the culture of Britain ... etc" 21st CENTURY GREENSTUFF 11:55, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

UK-centric

This is the Wikipedia in the English language. This is not the Wikipedia about the UK. This article should be less UK-centric and include material about pubs outside the UK too. JIP | Talk 14:29, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

The topic is defined in the lead as a regional topic - the global topic is dealt with by the drinking establishment article, which is linked to in the first sentence. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 14:39, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

I disagree, the 'pub' is a distinct type of drinking establishment and is not exclusive to Britain or British culture i.e. it should not be considered a regional topic. The 'pub' whilst having its origins in the UK, is existent in other countries, primarily those which were previously British colonies; as such, this article is highly UK-centric as previously indicated and requires qualification concerning pubs outside of mainland UK. In the case of theme-parked establishments such as the irish pub these are distinct from pubs in general as the former does not portray pubs in Ireland in an authentic way. E.M.Hoey (talk) 20:56, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Why "arms"?

Why do so many pubs call themselves "arms"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.33.206.170 (talk) 21:14, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Generally the coat of arms on the pub sign is that of the family/estate that the pub is named after, and often in the past was part of the estate of that family, or therwise the family had an interest in it or it pays homage to a famous member of the family. For example the Devonshire Arms on Devonshire Road in Cambridge (http://www.individualpubs.co.uk/devonshire/) has the coat of arms of the Duke of Devonshire as part of its sign. Si Trew (talk) 04:37, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Article should be at "British Pub"

That's its actual scope... Irish and Australian pubs have their own articles and, in spite of the claim in the lead, Canada barely features (an unsourced half-paragraph at the very end of the article) and New Zealand isn't mentioned once. "Pub" should be a dab page for this page, the Irish and Aussie variants and gastropub. -- MichiganCharms (talk) 05:47, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

No, "English Pub" etc. if anything. Traditional English, Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish pubs all ten to have markedly different characters. Or you might as well separate it into "Country pub", "Town pub", "Back street boozer" and so on. Si Trew (talk) 04:32, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Origin of the lock-in

The pub lock-in can't possibly have originated in WW1 because there are many earlier newspaper articles (see British Newspaper Archive) testifying to prosecutions for lock-ins. e.g. Glasgow Herald edition of 17 July 1854 page 5, article headed 'Police Courts' reports a 'Jane Guthrie, spirit dealer, 34 Gallowgate Street, was accused of...refus(ing) to admit three officers of police into her house... It was proved that a noise was heard in the house, and one of the watchmen saw several persons making their exit from the defendent's back door, while the officers were at the front.' [34 Gallowgate is recorded as a licenced establishment at this time so this was effectively a 'lock-in'. There are likely to be many earlier accounts than this]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.156.17.165 (talk) 00:07, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Scotland has always had licensing laws separate from (and generally more liberal than) licensing laws in England and Wales. It probably requires more elaboration in the article. Si Trew (talk) 04:26, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

A 'public house' is only 'public' in legal eyes while the landlord/publican admits members of the public. Once he/she locks the doors (thus preventing entry) the establishment ceases to be 'public' and reverts to being a private residence. Any patrons remaining doing-so as the private and invited guests of the publican.

These guests are expected and required not to cause a nuisance or make a noise (see the OP above) such that passing police officers might reasonably suspect that a crime such as burglary is being committed inside, which could give them good reason for demanding entry without a search warrant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.247.9 (talk) 09:29, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Adding an External Link

I saw the caution in the "External Links" section, so I'm proposing to add a link to CAMRA's online pubfinder. Does this make sense? http://whatpub.com/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Prof. Mc (talk • contribs) 19:06, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Removed "Metro Detroit" from introduction

It seemed odd for there to be a reference to a single city in the United States. I certainly know of no special significance of pubs in the Detroit area compared to the rest of the country. Since there was no elaboration in the main body of the article, I removed the reference. Those who know better or have references are welcome to replace it, but I would recommend a detailed mention of the pub phenomenon in Detroit in the text of the article if so.Acsenray (talk) 18:59, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Decline

Should there be a section on the decline of pubs in the UK, making one or more of the following points?

• Once closed, pubs rarely reopen because they are converted to other uses
• It's a very rare thing for a new pub to be opened, even in expanding urban areas
• "Traditional" pubs are closing at the rate of 4 per week - a number of factors may be significant (but difficult to prove -
  • Drink-drive laws
  • Smoking ban
  • Changes in licensing laws
  • Village population reduction
  • Economic downturn
  • Increasing chain or brewery ownership with more stringent corporate investment limits
  • Other factors?

Part-source: The Lost Pubs Project (England). There are other sources. Tony Holkham (talk) 16:36, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

An additional point might be, that there has been a drift to the requirement of financial management skills away from human relationship skills, which have been the heart of the trade in the past.SovalValtos (talk) 12:53, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

A Mail article (9 Dec) provides more info. Tony Holkham (talk) 20:45, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

For a former pub to re-open as a pub a licence must first be granted by the local Magistrates' court. Whether this is granted depends on a lot of things, such as previous history of both prospective landlord and of public house, local conditions, etc.

The greatest cause of pub closures is that they are too expensive for the patron, i.e., the cost of buying beer and spirits is too high and so customers are staying away, and the breweries themselves can make more profit on supermarket sales, (a result of the change in licensing laws - previously the only places you could buy alcohol was in a pub or in an Off licence) and hence close the (now unprofitable) pubs.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.247.9 (talk) 12:17, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Faulty links

Hi guys, found the page while looking for English pub foods, found the "Beefeater" link I believe is supposed to gazzette.live or whatever (citation 55), is broken and leads to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeomen_Warders instead. Didn't check on the others ( a few links have that page as a citation, and may be broken as well), figured y'all would know what to do, I'm no editor. Thanks for all the work you guys do!

174.134.203.204 (talk) 01:08, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

 Done Tony Holkham (talk) 13:12, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Lost Pubs Project

I believe the Lost Pubs Project should go in external links. It is a valuable and apparently non-commercial archive source for English pubs that have closed - over 27,000 listed with 13,000 photos. Any worries with this? Tony Holkham (talk) 15:01, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Slightly premature to assume no opposition. It looks commercial to me, with advertising, which is not often done for free. As it is now in the article, I am not asking for removal. Others will know better what is policy.SovalValtos (talk) 22:37, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

I didn't see any advertising - is that because I use AdBlock? If it is overtly commercial, than I'm happy for it to be taken out. It is a rather useful resource, though... Tony Holkham (talk) 23:01, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Adblock may well be the explanation. It is not something I have come across before. Under the tab Brewery Shares the site is retailing. IMHO it should stay in the page.SovalValtos (talk) 12:00, 1 February 2015 (UTC)