Talk:Pakistan
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Many of these questions arise frequently on the talk page regarding Pakistan.
Q1: Can I add/remove an image? or Why was my image removed?
A1: Yes, you can add and remove images but you might want to take some points into consideration before doing that. The images were carefully chosen in balance to represent the text in a neutral way from all parts of the country. All images have also been thoroughly checked for their copy right licenses while some are added to a switch code so that each time the server cache is refreshed, the image changes automatically to the next one listed in the code. Image removals and replacements are in most cases likely to be reverted due to such reasons. Please consider starting a section regarding the image on the article talk page and discuss how it should be added so as to get a consensus. See also Talk:Pakistan/Archive 13#Positioning, adding & removing images. Q2: Can I add --- and --- details? or Why was my text removed?
A2: All text in Wikipedia has to be verifiable through reliable sources. Any content that does is not published in an independent reliable source can be removed. This article is specifically maintaining a much higher standard after it has been worked on in detail in such terms to keep it from becoming an original research. Also note that while your additions are notable they still might be reverted per WP:WEIGHT. WP:UNDUE and WP:NPOV. In case of such reverts, please use the talk page to discuss the content Also search or take a look through the archives listed on the talk page to see if that has been previously discussed to prevent a discussion going in circles over time. Q3: Why no subsection for --- or ---?
A3: Please see WP:WEIGHT and WP:UNDUE. Everything related to Pakistan can not have a separate section as it would be undue to give it a mention at length. However, most related topics' main article is linked to in the article and the topic covered per its due weight. The main country article has much broader scope about the country rather than specific issues which might probably be occurring at a specific point of time of the country's history or a small part of it. If you still think some thing can be added to further improve the article or that subsections can be further improved, please start a discussion at the talk page with your proposal. Q4: The map of Pakistan is incorrect!
A4: The dark green area shows the total area constituting Pakistan while the area shaded in light green denotes Jammu and Kashmir – territory that is claimed, but not administered, by Pakistan. This geographic detail is per neutral point of view and does not adhere to the Pakistani, Indian or any other government's descriptions of territory. Q5: Terrorism/Kashmir/any other controversial topic should be mentioned more!
A5: Such topics are already covered in the article in terms of their actual issues or effects on the country. If you think any detail is missing, use the talk page to discuss that. Bluntly adding such details to the main country article is generally considered inappropriate. |
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Shorten the article
This article is insanely long, way past what WP:Size allows. What should we do about it? CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 11:55, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
- Good catch, the article is way too long and difficult to read comfortably. Many sections, I think specially "Independence and modern Pakistan" or "role of Islam" are way too detailed and the whole article can simply be trimmed. Looking forward for more opinions Jamal047 (talk) 12:34, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
Middle versus Regional power
A couple of notes. The current edit warring is problematic (beyond it being an edit war, per se.) in a number of ways. First and foremost, while consensus can change, making such a change with an existing source that states otherwise is inappropriate. The source needs to reflect whatever text it attributes. That's such a basic thing, it's puzzling to see it being overlooked by experienced editors. 2ndly, referencing consensus from 4 years ago, or from 6 years ago, all discussions whose consensus was not codified at the time through a fomral closure, is also problematic.
It's especially problematic when disputants refer just to the consensus itself, rather than the substance of the contested content. While, as noted, text-to-citation is inflexible, WP:ONUS is less so. Otherwise, it'd just be the Consensus required rule, at which point one could simply say that a new consensus is needed, declaratively, and nothing else. But at the event, the expectation is for disputants to actually explain themselves substantively, rather than vaguely pointing to discussions from years ago. Please do better, everyone. El_C 16:18, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
- @El C: Yes, there was formal closure on regional power. See Talk:Regional power/Archive 5#RfC: On quality of sources. Pakistan was discussed extensively in the RfC because it lacks quality sourcing. It hasn't been added to Regional power itself since that discussion. Same should happen here. --Yoonadue (talk) 16:44, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
- Oh, I missed that. But that is an exceptionally poor, exceptionally brief and undetailed closing summary for such an important multi-faceted matter. But regardless, all of you should follow the general ethos of WP:LOCALCONSENSUS by dealing with Pakistan, specifically and in detail, here, on its country article page. El_C 16:59, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
- Yes it can be discussed here as well. I will look forward to any new scholarly sources with enough details and those that were not already analyzed in those discussions. --Yoonadue (talk) 17:58, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
- Might be worth running a dedicated RfC here to settle the matter once and for all, but I'll leave that to whomever's discretion (for now, at least). El_C 18:11, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
- Yes it can be discussed here as well. I will look forward to any new scholarly sources with enough details and those that were not already analyzed in those discussions. --Yoonadue (talk) 17:58, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
- Oh, I missed that. But that is an exceptionally poor, exceptionally brief and undetailed closing summary for such an important multi-faceted matter. But regardless, all of you should follow the general ethos of WP:LOCALCONSENSUS by dealing with Pakistan, specifically and in detail, here, on its country article page. El_C 16:59, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
- @El C: You're probably aware of this already, but it's worth noting that that RfC didn't establish consensus against the term "regional power", only for a threshold of sourcing needed to make that statement. Which is honestly pretty pointless, because CONTEXTMATTERS really ought to be applied everywhere. The other section linked here contains a lot of cherry-picking by most of the participants, and some original research, but doesn't constitute any consensus either. Particularly given that multiple participants from both "sides" have been indeffed since, a new consensus-building exercise is probably necessary. As my stamina for a nonsensical dispute over a nonsensical label is zero, I will not be doing anything about it (this is honestly very similar to the MEK is a cult/isn't a cult nonsense). Vanamonde (Talk) 18:29, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
- @Vanamonde93: it's a cult...ish! Actually, no, I wasn't aware, I just sort of skimmed it. But that ("new consensus-building exercise") makes sense and generally aligns with my current position. Yeah, getting an admin to oversee troubled pages/matters such as these is, to put it midly, challenging. For those reasons and more. To that: I, too, can't commit to doing so here. I only encountered this at RfPP in passing (permalink), but I highly doubt I'd be able to spare the time or energy for this kind of rabbit hole, either. El_C 18:48, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
- @El C: Seeing as I'm passing hard on this, I can hardly blame you for doing the same! Vanamonde (Talk) 19:21, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
- @Vanamonde93: it's a cult...ish! Actually, no, I wasn't aware, I just sort of skimmed it. But that ("new consensus-building exercise") makes sense and generally aligns with my current position. Yeah, getting an admin to oversee troubled pages/matters such as these is, to put it midly, challenging. For those reasons and more. To that: I, too, can't commit to doing so here. I only encountered this at RfPP in passing (permalink), but I highly doubt I'd be able to spare the time or energy for this kind of rabbit hole, either. El_C 18:48, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
Why Pakistan is not given respect?
Pakistan is a great country but every body calls us bad. 2400:ADC5:1A0:A400:ED4E:E50A:8F8C:1B (talk) 14:43, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
- The fact that you are asking this question probably partially explains it. You can't demand respect from other people. Respect has to be earned. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 05:16, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
Junagadh ("and Manavadar")
There needs to be some kind of an elaboration in the main article space about the inclusion of Junagadh ("and Manavadar") in the info-box map. Currently, this piece of territory is depicted as being claimed by Pakistan and controlled by India, but there is no explanation anywhere throughout the article as to why this is the case. I've done my own brief research, and it seems that Pakistan's claim to Junagadh (which includes Manavadar, much like Kosovo "and Metohija" that is claimed by Serbia) is almost entirely symbolic in nature. Nobody in Pakistan seriously believes that Junagadh is worth fighting for or could feasibly actually be acquired by Pakistan. In essence, Pakistan is simply claiming Junagadh in order to annoy the Indians, so it's more of a political ploy than a genuine territorial dispute. The territory of Junagadh is not connected to Pakistan by land, so there's very little hope of Pakistan gaining control of it (I mean, Pakistan controlled East Pakistan i.e. Bangladesh for a while, but that clearly didn't work out). Pakistan did not officially claim Junagadh until August 2020, when they decided to add it to their official map. It seems that Pakistan's interest in Junagadh is largely politically/symbolically connected to its interest in Kashmir. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 00:33, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
Relevant RfC from last year: Talk:Pakistan/Archive 21#RfC for map. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 00:51, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
GINI index is low for Pakistan instead of medium
The value is 29.6 which comes under "low" category. Needs to be changed. Haroon Fida (talk) 20:26, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 November 2022
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Pakistan,officially Republic of Pakistan Emanli (talk) 19:24, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
Pakistan as secular nation,where hindus,christians,buddhists and other religions may live. Emanli (talk) 19:25, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. – dudhhr talk contribs (he/they) 19:52, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
1971 Bangladesh genocide - Why is it missing?
Why is there no mention of 1971 Bangladesh genocide committed by the Pakistan military? There is an academic consensus that the events which took place during the Bangladesh Liberation War constituted a genocide. That's like an article on Germany without mentioning the Holocaust. EmiratiEmir (talk) 21:04, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
Regional Languages Misleading
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Kindly reverse the regional languages section. Its misleading! Agent05032 (talk) 10:58, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Can you provide a bit more detail into the issue? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:05, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 November 2022
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Pakistan, as Republic of Pakistan Emanli (talk) 19:32, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
Pakistan Emanli (talk) 19:33, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Cannolis (talk) 19:47, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
Map is wrong
Pakistan only claims kashmir and a piece of Gujarat near the southern part of the Gujarat-Pakistan border, not Junagadh. 2601:154:C47E:3AA0:85D5:9FD:A798:1A22 (talk) 00:17, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 December 2022
Driving side in Pakistan is right side — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abdulllahkamran (talk • contribs) 13:47, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
Driving side in Pakistan is right side not left side Abdulllahkamran (talk) 13:48, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
Driving side in Pakistan is right side Abdulllahkamran (talk) 13:51, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
- they drive opposite to a steering wheel, which means left side PreserveOurHistory (talk) 04:24, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:56, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 December 2022
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The CIA data source is using the 1981 and 1998 Census language data as "ethnicity data". Pakistan doesn't ask for the ethnicity of the people in its census. They ask about the mother tongue which tells us the person's ethnicity. For example, the mother tongue of a Punjabi will be Punjabi and for a Pashtun it will be Pashto etc.
The actual stats can also be found on the Pakistan Languages Wikipedia page. Punjabis are 38.78% of the population not 44.7%. Pashtuns are 18.24% of the population not 15.2% Sindhis are 14.5% of the population not 14.1%. There are many more corrections needed too. The CIA Factbook has used outdated language data from 1998 and 1981 census so please use the official 2017 Pakistan Census as a source and correct it. MT111222 (talk) 07:55, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
Please change the "Ethnic Groups" section data to the following:
Punjabis 38.78%
Pashtuns 18.24%
Sindhis 14.57%
Saraikis 12.19%
Muhajirs 7.08%
Baloch 3.02%
Others 6.12% MT111222 (talk) 07:59, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
Please change the ethnic group data to the following:
Punjabis from 44.7% to 38.78%
Pashtuns from 15.4% to 18.24%
Sindhis from 14.1% to 14.57%
Saraikis from 8.4% to 12.19%
Muhajirs from 7.6% to 7.08%
Baloch from 3.6% to 3.02%
Others from 6.3% to 6.12%
MT111222 (talk) 08:03, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Also, using wikipedia as reference likely to become WP:CIRCLE Lemonaka (talk) 16:08, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 December 2022
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The CIA data source is using the 1981 and 1998 Census language data as "ethnicity data". Pakistan doesn't ask for the ethnicity of the people in its census. They ask about the mother tongue which tells us the person's ethnicity. For example, the mother tongue of a Punjabi will be Punjabi and for a Pashtun, it will be Pashto etc.
The most recent census data can also be found on the Pakistan Bureau of Statistics website page.
Link to 2017 Pakistan Census language data:
https://www.pbs.gov.pk/sites/default/files/population/2017/tables/pakistan/Table11n.pdf
The CIA Factbook has used outdated language data from 1998 and 1981 census so please use the official 2017 Pakistan Census as a source and correct it. Please change the ethnic group data to the following:
Punjabis from 44.7% to 38.78%
Pashtuns from 15.4% to 18.24%
Sindhis from 14.1% to 14.57%
Saraikis from 8.4% to 12.19%
Muhajirs from 7.6% to 7.08%
Baloch from 3.6% to 3.02%
Others from 6.3% to 6.12% MT111222 (talk) 06:54, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
- Done, thanks for pointing it out Jamal047 (talk) 12:20, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 December 2022
Chief of Army Staff and JCSC names needs to be changed in Military Section, please. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.175.67.161 (talk) 05:44, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
Website section should be removed
It's not appropriate to provide a nation's website link in its article. Referring to other nations' articles, their nations' respective websites are not included. I think the website section should be removed. Skrizlee (talk) 22:09, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
- Done, CMD (talk) 02:27, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
December 2022
Pakistan GDP Nominal is 1.04trillions GDP PPP is 3.35trillions — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.101.165.202 (talk) 11:05, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
Not done. Not supported by a source. —Alalch E. 11:30, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
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