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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 182.224.89.144 (talk) at 00:12, 28 July 2023 (→‎Ukraine war liberated Staromaiorske: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Link to most recent closed and archived RfC: Talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine/Archive 11#RfC on Western support to Ukraine

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The heading above is a link to the RfC: Talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine/Archive 11#RfC on Western support to Ukraine, closed 30 December 2022.

See also earlier RfCs: Talk:2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine/Archive_9#RfC on "Supported by" in the infobox for Ukraine, closed 9 June 2022; and, Should the individual arms supplying countries be added to the infobox?: closed 6 March 2022. All RfCs were closed with "no consensus". In the most recent RfC, the closer made the following statement:

Also, can we not do this again in a couple months? There is WP:NODEADLINE, and there is sure to be plenty of academic studies and expert writings that will provide excellent context and sourcing for what, exactly, should be listed in that infobox parameter. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:04, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

Cinderella157 (talk) 06:13, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Brain drain vs emigration

I am a bit confused as to why we are using the term "brain drain" in this article to describe the uptick in emigration from Russia?

I appreciate that there may be more than 100 million hits on Google for the term "brain drain", Rjensen, but in the same breath there are also 152 million hits for "emigration" when I check. This is also despite the inaccuracy of Google's hit count. Looking at Google Trends though, emigration is much more commonly used than brain drain.

Anyway, the section content is talking about the broad departure of general populous Russians from the country, not specifically the exodus of skilled individuals which is what "brain drain" refers to. Even Wikipedia's page, brain drain, redirects to human capital flight to describe the movement of skilled persons rather than the general population. The term itself is also in itself Westernised slang, and not of encyclopedic tone. Tim (Talk) 04:10, 17 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"emigration" is the general term and adds nothing. "Brain Drain" says emigration AND highlights three factors that are very important according to the reliable sources: a) who left (the better educated) and b) the impact on Russia (a massive loss of top-of-the line human capital and skills. In my experience most of the news reports on the post 2020 emigration from Russia include the loss of human capital. c) Let me add a 3rd factor: Brain Drain includes the loss of many (or most) high tech western companies and their non-Russian experts--their departure is not called "emigration" but is called "brain drain." I think you will agree that the surge of departures in last 3 years does not reflect the "general population" (which is mostly lower income / less educated people). Rjensen (talk) 05:33, 17 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
According to BBC: [{Cite news |date=2023-06-03 |title=Why are people leaving Russia, who are they, and where are they going? |language=en-GB |work=BBC News |url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65790759 |access-date=2023-07-09}}] "They come from different walks of life. Some are journalists like us, but there are also IT experts, designers, artists, academics, lawyers, doctors, PR specialists, and linguists. Most are under 50. Many share western liberal values and hope Russia will be a democratic country one day. Some are LGBTQ+. Sociologists studying the current Russian emigration say there is evidence that those leaving are younger, better educated and wealthier than those staying. More often they are from bigger cities." I added the quote to the article--the BBC was already there. 05:40, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
There are 1,190 scholarly articles in Google Scholar using the terms "brain drain" and "Russia" and published thus far in 2023! see this link to all of them Rjensen (talk) 05:59, 17 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Was not the real "Brain Drain" here from the press hack that came up with the term? For instead of using this Brain Dead idea - why not replace it with a less loaded term? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.110.75.57 (talk) 20:45, 17 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia uses the terminology that is devised by the reliable sources, and "Brain Drain" has been widely adopted by the media and by the academics. Rjensen (talk) 03:37, 18 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Rjensen, brain drain is not in misuse here. TylerBurden (talk) 16:16, 18 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I can see that this has already been addressed and that the section has been repurposed and renamed. At the time of first raising this, there was no mention in the article about the specific lost of highly trained or skilled individuals, hence my concern with the term "brain drain" versus general emigration. I am glad to see that this has since been rectified. Tim (Talk) 07:37, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal to add the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria to the Ukrainian side, and Iran to the Russian support section

With the direct military involvement of the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria’s government-in-exile, I propose that we add it to the pro-Ukraine combatants. After all, it is like Donetsk and Luhansk in a way. All are only recognized by a few countries (Ichkeria, one), but only Donetsk and Luhansk are shown as combatants.

In addition, with the recent Ukrainian strike that killed ten Iranian soldiers, I also propose that we add Iran to the Russian support section, as it is clearly now supporting Russia in an advisory role. Blepii (talk) 04:58, 18 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose Ichkeria is currently only recognized by Ukraine, and only since November (in a similar vein to how DeepStateMap.Live now depicts various areas generally recognized as Russian territory (everything annexed during WW2, as well as Chechnya) as "occupied". There is no real difference between Chechen contingents and other units such as the Kastuś Kalinoŭski Regiment. On the other hand, the DPR and LPR were actually de facto functional governments exercising stable control and administration of territory, and also received a few recognitions from Russian allies such as Syria, North Korea, and (depending on the interpretation of official statements) informally a bunch of others.
More importantly, the DNR and LNR were putting in about twenty times the manpower into the fight, and their level of involvement was so intense that the number of casualties has been estimated at more than the total pre-war size of their armed forces.
As for adding Iran, all I can find is Ukrainian government claims of such a strike from last November. Besides, by that criterion, we would have to revisit the Infobox Wars with regard to the UK and several other countries. While I, for one, actually might want to do so at a later point, that would necessitate novel arguments which I haven't finished carefully preparing, and an overwhelming case would be necessary to avoid a long-running furball over the issue. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 10:17, 19 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What is “were actually de facto functional governments exercising stable control and administration of territory”? Nonsense.
They were Russian-controlled since May 2014. Current sources label that territory “Russian-controlled territory as of 24 February 2022” (Plokhy 2023, The Russo-Ukrainian War) or simply label the “line of contact before invasion,” or earlier “held by Russian-backed forces.[1] At this point they shouldn’t even be in the infobox as belligerent actors, because they had no independent national identity or statehood, nor any agency in the conflict.  —Michael Z. 00:07, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Being a proxy/puppet/client or what have you does not mean that they weren’t acting as discrete entities. It’s not as if the Kremlin was micromanaging every administrative decision (far from it) and as we saw, the 1st and 2nd AC were not integrated into the Russian force structure until recently.
A more or less analogous case, Japanese invasion of Manchuria, lists Manchukuo under a bullet point.
About not having an “independent national identity” — you’d have to ask the residents of those regions if that’s an accurate representation of their feelings. As for statehood — it depends on which definition one uses.
In any event, the current question is about the Chechen government-in-exile.
RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 04:25, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yea, I am not sure this does not fail wp:undue. Slatersteven (talk) 11:01, 19 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Parham wiki (talk) 16:32, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Still an invasion?

This is not really an invasion anymore. Since 2022, it was just another phase of the war. I think it will be good to call it: Russo-Ukrainian War (2022–present), just like with the Somali Civil War (2009–present) page. If this phase lasted for only 4 months or less, then it would be just an invasion. Unless we change the Russo-Ukrainian War page to Russo-Ukrainian conflict, which would most likely not happen. WikipedianRevolutionary (talk) 19:35, 19 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It is an ongoing invasion, that is, Ukraine is still being invaded by Russia. BeŻet (talk) 13:51, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
However, the brave Ukrainians are resisting it, so it’s no longer just an invasion. WikipedianRevolutionary (talk) 16:53, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. Slatersteven (talk) 13:53, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I feel like the invasion was until around the time Russians just stopped advancing. Same way how by 1943 or so the German invasion of the Soviet Union transitioned into becoming the Eastern Front. Juxlos (talk) 04:42, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
True. WikipedianRevolutionary (talk) 06:20, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If you support my idea, you could simply make a request to move it, since you are an Extended Confirmed user. If you don’t want, it’s fine! WikipedianRevolutionary (talk) 06:27, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The problem with this interpretation of the word "invasion" is that editors never try to define what would its meaning be according to it and how would it affect the articles, which it clearly would. I feel like the invasion was until around the time Russians just stopped advancing and when did they stop? In April 2022 after they retreated from the north? In July 2022 when they took Sievierodonetsk and Lysychansk? In May 2023 when they took Bakhmut? When exactly did the invasion end according to this abstract interpretation? All of this is nothing but personal subjectivity. It is why our current practice, calling the whole thing an invasion, which is unambiguously accurate, is superior. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 08:13, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree and with your reasoning + juxlos's reasoning, but there should probably be a formal move discussion given the amount of traffic this article gets. DarmaniLink (talk) 09:15, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Leave it as it is, people are always going to want to change the name anyway and WP:RS are still using the term to refer to the full scale war started by Russia in 2022 that is still going on. TylerBurden (talk) 21:21, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Article idea: Telegram during the Russian invasion of Ukraine

There are a ton of articles existing on this topic that could be used as sources: [2][3][4][5]

The main reason I could see against creating an article like this is that there might already be an article that covers a similar scope. Anyone know if there’s some article already existing, like “Social media during…” or “Information ecosystem during…”? If not, I might get started on a draft. HappyWith (talk) 14:34, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There are no such articles. Parham wiki (talk) 14:47, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I incite you to propose this at this article's talk page at Russian and Ukrainian Wikipedia. I think its very likely someone at any of the two decides to write an article, which we will later be able to translate, considering the popularity of Telegram during the war. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 15:25, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the above that this is a very good idea for an article. – GnocchiFan (talk) 16:50, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Start with Social media during the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and break off sections summary-style as necessary.  —Michael Z. 18:32, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's a good idea, thanks. HappyWith (talk) 19:31, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It’s definitely a topic that would meet Wikipedia’s notability requirements. Mzajac’s suggestion is also a good one. Volunteer Marek 18:46, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Update: I’ve created a very initial draft at Draft:Social media during the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Other editors are welcome to contribute. HappyWith (talk) 19:43, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Could the article titled Social media during the Russo-Ukrainian War? From quick searching I found this chapter in a book published in 2015, that chapter cited by 61 in Google Scholar (see subheading "Social Media in the Russian-Ukrainian Conflict"). Hddty (talk) 05:51, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This may be the best idea, tbh. As I've been writing the article, it has expanded in scope naturally to cover the larger war, and I'll probably move the page after writing a little more. Thanks for the suggestion! HappyWith (talk) 13:27, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks to everyone for the suggestions! The article is now in mainspace at Social media in the Russo-Ukrainian War. HappyWith (talk) 14:36, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Naval Map recognizes Chinese claims in South China Sea

For some reason the sanction map shows naval territories. It seems to recognize Chinese claims in the south china sea. I propose we switch to a map that does not show naval sovereignty to ensure NPOV on this issue. 86.107.186.224 (talk) 16:29, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Was a bit tricky technically.
That image had been flagged as problematic before for other reasons, but iirc no action was taken then. I’m going to go and remove it from the other articles too.
The example you gave is only one of the issues as there are a lot of EEZ disputes worldwide.
Furthermore, the unnecessary EEZ markings were cluttering.
RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 23:20, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
EEZs is important, since the sanctions relate to issues of navigation and the admission of ships to maritime zones. In addition, this map better visualizes the island states. If you have authoritative sources that describe the borders differently, edit the map--Artemis Dread (talk) 16:30, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Artemis Dread I don’t understand how EEZs are significantly affected by sanctions. Can you explain the mechanics?
In my view, any benefit is outweighed by the issues of NPOV and visual clutter.
Besides, it’s not typical to depict EEZs in similar cases.
As far as maritime borders go, there are so many significant EEZ disputes out there that there is no widely recognized border.
As a proud flag-waving American, I take personal umbrage to your depiction of an oil-rich wedge of the Beaufort Sea as belonging to Canada’s EEZ!!
Just imagine how many other people around the world feel the same way about far more serious maritime disputes.
Afaik there are relatively few island states actively sanctioning as of now, and there are other options to depict them.
The easiest thing to do would be to simply create a new map without EEZs, and let each individual WP decide which image to use. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 21:46, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@RadioactiveBoulevardier, advise a neutral basis for an alternative option--Artemis Dread (talk) 15:30, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Land borders only would avoid most issues. I believe the template maps for those use dotted lines for disputes. There’s also the option of using stripes for the small number of disputed areas. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 18:33, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Article for pro-war Russian nationalists / “Z-patriots” / “angry patriots”

They don’t really have an established name in English or Russian (that I know of), but essentially I’m talking about the pro-war nationalists who think Putin hasn’t gone far enough, like Igor Girkin and his friends as well as Prigozhin and others who have criticized Putin. I think they probably deserve an article, given their rising importance in the Russian sphere and all the references to them in existing WP articles.

Some examples of the group being referred to as a distinct faction:

  • Vladimir Putin’s failing invasion is fueling the rise of Russia’s far right: " Instead, the most serious challenge to Putinism may come from a newly emerging political movement that is even further to the right on the political spectrum than Putin himself. At present, this is a disorganized but vocal movement that has found its voice in the many unofficial Russian “war correspondents” and social media accounts reporting on the invasion while bypassing the Russia’s Kremlin-controlled mainstream information space. Most write from a Russian nationalist perspective while employing ethnic slurs for Ukrainians. They are unambiguously pro-war and often apparently pro-Putin. However, their content is frequently at odds with Russia’s official propaganda and highly critical of the military officials leading the invasion."

I wouldnt really know what to call the article, given there isn’t a clear WP:COMMONNAME at all. If other editors have ideas, let me know. HappyWith (talk) 20:07, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've seen a common colloquial name arise on social media, but its more of a disparaging term rhyming an ethnic slur, so I don't think it would be appropriate for here as the common name. You could do it in a sorta-roundabout way and make it the term itself (and about the term itself), then use that as a means to include the history and circumstances of the term, where when/if a common name does emerge, it can be replaced with that, but that's getting into WP:CRYSTAL territory.
The other option took would be to just call it something descriptive like "Pro-war Russian Nationalists in the 2022 Russian Invasion of Ukraine" DarmaniLink (talk) 03:59, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think the descriptive name you propose would understate their zeal. Lots of Russians are pro war and lots of them are nationalist. What makes these guys different is that they think Russia’s current methods aren’t extreme and brutal enough. Volunteer Marek 04:23, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, it was just kinda the first thing that popped into my head.
I tried playing with chatGPT for a bit and got something like:
"Proponents of Escalated Russian Military Operations in Ukraine"
Maybe "harsher" instead of escalated
How does that sound? DarmaniLink (talk) 05:26, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No, that doesn’t sound right. I don’t think ChatGPT will be useful here. HappyWith (talk) 13:36, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I’ve created a very bare initial draft at Draft:Z-patriots for now. Feel free to contribute there. HappyWith (talk) 15:00, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
...Now published to mainspace at Angry patriots. HappyWith (talk) 14:56, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well, as we say be bold. Thanks for making the executive decision so we didnt languish over this too much. DarmaniLink (talk) 14:58, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Claims of Human Rights Abuses

At the risk of being attacked as a pro-Russian troll, I have to ask why Wikipedia is willing to publish (unconfirmed) reports of Russian human right abuses - while down-playing claims of Ukrainian war crimes?

For an AP report within the Wikipedia article stared that "several videos started circulating on different websites purportedly showing Russian soldiers beheading Ukrainian soldiers."

Yet, following the links from the AP article, another AP report presented evidence that the Ukrainians killed Russian troops surrendering. This report was not included within the Wikipedia article.

A case of innocent until proven Russian?

Because RS do. Slatersteven (talk) 10:28, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
NOw if you want to add claims of Ukrainian ones please do so. Slatersteven (talk) 10:39, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Access to Article

But how can I include the words Matilda Bogner (head of the U.N. monitoring mission in Ukraine) that they "have received credible allegations of summary executions of persons hors de combat, and several cases of torture and ill-treatment, reportedly committed by members of the Ukrainian armed forces”, when article appears to be locked? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.166.175 (talk) 11:00, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Provide a source, and ask one of us to do it for you. Slatersteven (talk) 11:02, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Is their Press Release: "UN Human Rights Ukraine released reports on treatment of prisoners of war and overall human rights situation in Ukraine" a reasonable place to quote from? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.166.175 (talk) 11:25, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Should be, care to suggest a text? Slatersteven (talk) 11:30, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"PRISONERS OF WAR

I will turn now to our report on the treatment of prisoners of war, during all stages of captivity – from initial capture, to transit and then places of internment.

Our team interviewed more than 400 prisoners of war, approximately 200 on each side. Ukraine provided us with unimpeded confidential access to official places of internment of Russian prisoners of war. The Russian Federation did not give us access. However, we were able to carry out confidential interviews with Ukrainian POWs upon their release.

I will start with Russian prisoners of war in the hands of Ukraine. We are deeply concerned about the summary execution of up to 25 Russian POWs and persons hors de combat by Ukrainian armed forces which we have documented. This was often perpetrated immediately upon capture on the battlefield. While we are aware of ongoing investigations by Ukrainian authorities into five cases involving 22 victims, we are not aware of any prosecutions of the perpetrators." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.166.175 (talk) 11:51, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We can't add this, at best we can say "According to a UN report Russian POWS claimed to be victims of human rights violations, as well as summary executions". Slatersteven (talk) 11:59, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Since the report by Matilda Bogner (head of the U.N. monitoring mission in Ukraine) is a public statement - why cannot Wikipedia use it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.166.175 (talk) 12:13, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No one has said that. Slatersteven (talk) 12:18, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Put another way, while allowing claims of Ukrainian abuses, you did say that Wikipedia is not willing to print clear evidence of Ukrainian war crimes?

1. Sign your posts. 2. Wikipedia would need to be provided with clear evidence (from a reliable source as usual) to print it. --2001:8003:1C20:8C00:F211:A254:7DA9:FB24 (talk) 05:22, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So a Press Release by the Head of the U.N. monitoring mission in Ukraine is not a reliable source? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.166.138 (talk) 08:25, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It would be advisable for you to read WP:COMPETENCE and WP:RELIABLE before continuing to ask questions that you should already know the answers to. --2001:8003:1C20:8C00:F211:A254:7DA9:FB24 (talk) 08:32, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"UN Human Rights Ukraine released reports on treatment of prisoners of war and overall human rights situation in Ukraine" Press Release 24 March 2023

Not knowing the answer, I again ask why the United Nations report is not considered to be a reliable/usable source? Could it be that Wikipedia wishes to avoid showing the Ukrainian Govt in a negative light? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.166.138 (talk) 17:20, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No one has suggested it not, but it might well be a wp:primary source, and thus we need to work carefully what we use it for. Slatersteven (talk) 17:23, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Typo

There's a typo I would edit if the article wasn't protected, so I'll just point it out here.

Under the environmental section of Impacts "Around 30% of Ukraine's land is now litered with explosives"

It's littered not litered. 184.103.36.165 (talk) 11:35, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Mr rnddude (talk) 11:41, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Fresh Discussion on Adding Countries to the Infobox

Closing with OPs consent. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:41, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Its been over a year since the last discussion on this when a vote was held that was inconclusive and in light of how much support Ukraine has received at this point a new discussion is in order. Ukraine has received or been promised billions of dollars not just in financial aid but also valuable western equipment such as APC's, IFV's, and even tanks. Russia has also recieved albeit less but still support from nations such as North Korea and Iran. To not list these countries in the infobox in some capacity seems more misleading than not including them in my opinion. Nations that only provided medical aid are listed in the infobox for the Korean War article and I'm not going to list them all but you can find other examples so clearly there is precedence for putting countries that aren't directly fighting in the infobox. The aid Ukraine has received has been undeniably important in their ability to continue fighting and conduct operations such as the recent counter offensive and currently a reader that just reads the lead of the article and the info box might not realize this since financial aid and military aid to Ukraine is only briefly mentioned. I read the concerns people had about including NATO in the infobox because it might make people think NATO is at war with Russia but if NATO and other countries are clearly labeled as only providing arms and not as belligerents I don't see this being an issue. UkraineWarProposal (talk) 14:51, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is who do we add, what criteria, as you say Russia has also received assistance. Slatersteven (talk) 14:59, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hopefully in this discussion a consensus can be reached on the critera. In my opinion any nation thats sent military equipment which has been used in the war by either side should definitely be included. Certain nations such as the United States which have provided the most aid should be prioritized for inclusion. UkraineWarProposal (talk) 15:03, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That’s far too broad a proposal to be likely to gain traction. I invite OP to pore through the archives. Actually, I believe the big banner up top links to the most important archived discussions. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 15:58, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  1. The argument is poor. So many things have such influence on the course of the war. Ukraine’s strong sense of civic national identity. Ukrainians’ ability to adapt to, use, and develop technology. Their defensive advantage. Russia’s high level of corruption and political infighting, Soviet military mindset, and poor preparedness for an invasion. But none of these belong in the infobox. Don’t write the article in the infobox.
  2. It certainly doesn’t override all of the arguments against discussed previously.
  3. Since previous discussions, there is a new consensus established to just not do this: shoehorning a “Supporters” column, under “Belligerents” where it would never belong, in an infobox where there is no consensus to include non-belligerent supporters. It should probably be removed from most other articles. It should definitely not be added anywhere, and especially not in a highly debated and questionable instance such as this one. See Template talk:Infobox military conflict#RfC on "supported by" being used with the belligerent parameter.
 —Michael Z. 16:46, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A good point, two wrongs do not make a right. Slatersteven (talk) 16:50, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In response to point one all those things you listed that aren't included in the infobox are just as important if not more so then the military aid to Ukraine. However I believe it is useful to a reader and improves the article if they can at a glance in the infobox see which nations are supporting who in a conflict and there is no good reason not to include this information. I also was not aware of that more recent consensus you mention but I disagree. I think it is useful to a reader who doesn't have time to read the article to see at a glance which nations are supporting which side in a conflict. If it is clearly labeled that the nations are only supplying arms I don't see what negative effect this could have on the article and a readers interpretation. UkraineWarProposal (talk) 17:01, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Just as a side note, I’d be wary of arguments based on the RfC over there, as 1) we have our own very special infobox all to ourselves 2) adopting the deprecation would raise new issues regarding the continued inclusion of Belarus.
Pinging @Cinderella157 for comment on this point as they have been heavily involved in that side of things. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 19:31, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support if along with NATO we add mosquitos. Source TylerBurden (talk) 21:00, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It’s been about 8 months, I believe. Last RfC was closed Dec 30. I don’t really see that anything has changed. Volunteer Marek 15:39, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What about fuel for tanks, tires for armoured cars? Military aid is not just guns and bullets. Slatersteven (talk) 17:04, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If the amount of fuel or other forms of logistical support is significant enough yes that would merit inclusion I believe. UkraineWarProposal (talk) 17:24, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The issue is that OP isn’t bringing novel arguments. I believe fairly strong ones do exist, but it isn’t a convenient time for me to get too deeply involved in a discussion like this due to IRL personal tasks consuming my headspace. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 15:57, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also that RfC was closed with a plea by User:ScottishFinishRadish Also, can we not do this again in a couple months?. I guess 8 months doesn’t qualify as “a couple months” but I think the idea still applies. Volunteer Marek 15:41, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it does. Lots has changed in the 8 months since that discussion. Ukraine has recieved lots of essential western military and financial aid which it has used to prepare and now conduct a critical counter offensive. I don't think you or anyone else is denying or even can deny how important and useful the aid from countries like the U.S. has been to Ukraines war effort. It says in the counter offensive article itself that its success is important so western nations will see how valuable their support has been and will continue it. Not to mention the leaks back in April revealed certain NATO countries have gone so far as to even send in special forces for secret operations. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65245065 UkraineWarProposal (talk) 16:25, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think its clear NATO and other nations are doing pretty much everything they can to support Ukraines war effort short of a military intervention which isn't an option for many reasons. North Korea and Iran are supporting Russia to a lesser extent but enough to merit inclusion as well in my opinion. I think the only real issue with including more nations in the infobox is a lack of consensus on criteria for inclusion which I am hoping we can fix in this talk page. UkraineWarProposal (talk) 16:34, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That says one country, and it does not say “for secret operations.” For all you know, they were a security detail for the embassy or for their visiting head of government. This does not belong in the infobox.  —Michael Z. 16:37, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As is China. Slatersteven (talk) 16:39, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
My mistake you are correct. Its unknown what they were doing there but why was it classified and why special forces just for protecting a visiting head of state? Anyway I'm not saying that should be in the infobox anyway. I was just trying to illustrate my point that NATO has given Ukraine LOTS of support and therefore should be in the infobox. UkraineWarProposal (talk) 16:41, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The article literally says the UK always treats its special forces’ actions as classified. That’s why. It doesn’t illustrate that, because you have no evidence they had anything to do with support to Ukraine.
And why keep repeating NATO NATO when we know about seventy or more states and many international organizations have provided diplomatic, civil-society, economic, humanitarian, or military support to Ukraine?  —Michael Z. 16:52, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
To be fair, "NATO support" does now seem to include most of NATO. Slatersteven (talk) 16:57, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well put.  —Michael Z. 17:05, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In the interest of completeness, it’s worth reviewing statements Josep Borrell, Jens Stoltenberg, and other intergovernmental officials have made on the topic.
Funny though how people keep suggesting NATO, but not the EU.
Anyway… RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 19:37, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Im just mentioning NATO lots because they are the most prominent in the news I guess my bad. In any case let me clarify that my proposal upon further thought is now for any nation that has provided significant military aid to Ukraine or Russia to be included in the infobox. I am not sure what should be considered significant however. UkraineWarProposal (talk) 17:04, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Most, not all, individual NATO member states, the EU, the G7, the IMF, the International Criminal Court, the IAEA, the UN OHCHR, and the UN General Assembly, for example, have all been prominent in the news for their support of Ukraine. But if it’s not supporters that you want to add, please do define what it is and propose an appropriate heading. Leaving supporters out of a “Supporters” field is more of an omission than not kludging the template with a write-in sub-field.  —Michael Z. 17:09, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And there's the rub, we would have to decide what is significant, and that is far too subjective. Slatersteven (talk) 17:12, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I am not proposing the infobox be every nation and organization thats ever come out in support of either Ukraine of Russia. I am proposing any nation or organization that has provided notable and significant military, financial, or humanitarian aid be included. I ask that other contributors give their opinions on what the criteria for inclusion should be so we can possibly reach a consensus. UkraineWarProposal (talk) 17:18, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I got that, my point was "how do we define that?". Slatersteven (talk) 17:20, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thats the entire problem. We all need to come to a consensus on whats "significant" which I don't think is subjective nor impossible. Colombia and Cambodia for example have given much less support to Ukraine then countries like the U.S. and are therefore not necessary to include in the infobox. UkraineWarProposal (talk) 17:29, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Issue is that OP didn’t suggest a clear standard. It’s one thing to suggest putting a few larger countries in on a case by case basis due to a visible and demonstrable pattern of large-scale support clearly independent of the wider effort. It’s quite another to just suggest that all arms suppliers be added.
The end goal should be to provide something helpful at a glance to the reader. Adding minor European countries that sent some small arms at some point isn’t helpful.
At the same time, the status quo is also potentially problematic relative to MOS and P&G, but that’s a topic for another thread.
RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 19:50, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree with the entire approach, unless you label it “Biggest sources of arms,” or whatever specific criteria it’s supposed to reflect.
But “Supported by” looks like a List of supporters of Ukraine. It broadly implies this is who supports Ukraine and those omitted do not. In terms of significance, the insult against “minor countries” ignores that Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania have contributed 1% of their GDP! It ignores that, again, over 70 states support Ukraine. So if they’re not all listed then there should be a link to the full list, and we’re back to trying to shoehorn an article section, or rather a separate major listicle, or two, into the infobox to convey an entire subject that the infobox has no field for, by design.  —Michael Z. 22:09, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You are focusing in on the UK and their special forces but remember that the leak says special forces from other countries such as the U.S. are in Ukraine as well. We don't know what they are doing in Ukraine but why do we have to assume it's just something mundane? UkraineWarProposal (talk) 17:13, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No reason, which is why we also can't assume it's not mundane. Slatersteven (talk) 17:20, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
True. But it doesn’t even say they’re armed, so it’s a stretch to claim they’re “operating.” We know the US has diplomatic security and unarmed weapons auditors in Ukraine. States have military liaison in their embassy staffs as well. Anyway, this is all chatter since you’re not proposing it be included in the infobox.  —Michael Z. 17:51, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]


OK lets play a game.

What is the better one really good tank or 6 very bad ones? What is better, one piece of intel that stop an attack or 15 pieces of intel that have no impact? Slatersteven (talk) 17:34, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well this just prompts another decision in regards to the criteria. Should we include nations that send "bad" outdated equipment in big numbers or not? In my opinion we should concern ourselves more with the quantity of aid sent then the quality since that gets very and unnecessarily subjective and complex for an infobox. Maybe we could decide how valuable the equipment sent is based on monetary value? For example the U.S. is sending only 31 M1 Abrams tanks out of the thousands that they have but that's an almost 9 million dollar very capable tank. UkraineWarProposal (talk) 17:44, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think the best approach would be the most time consuming but it would be the best. We could analyze the aid that each nation has sent to Ukraine or Russia on a case by case basis and decide whether its significant or how big of an impact its had. I guess the biggest challenge would be finding reliable sources to make an informed decision but I'm sure they exist. If not then I guess it will have to wait until a few years after the war is over. UkraineWarProposal (talk) 17:51, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And any such analysis must wait till after the war, and historians judge what was and was not significant. So this needs closing until then. Slatersteven (talk) 17:57, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough then thats a good point. I think a good consensus would be then that not just for the Ukraine war but any current conflicts the infobox should be left empty of anyone except directly involved belligerents. UkraineWarProposal (talk) 18:03, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, but this is not the place for this discussion. Slatersteven (talk) 11:10, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. There are no new arguments here, and there’s a recent general consensus against this at Template_talk:Infobox_military_conflict#RfC_on_"supported_by"_being_used_with_the_belligerent_parameter. It’s a waste of energy to start discussions about what exactly should be listed in a write-in “supporters” field when there is no consensus to have one. Per WP:GS/RUSUKR, non-extended-confirmed users are not permitted to participate in project discussions, and this discussion to go against consensus initiated by a WP:SPA has gone beyond the threshold. —Michael Z. 18:10, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • Procedural close but as I stated above, I don’t think the “general consensus” from that discussion is necessarily applicable here, and if it is, then it needs to be applied completely.
    RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 19:53, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Why isn’t it applicable? This has been discussed multiple times with no consensus to add it, so it is definitely a controversial case. If it’s generally not to be applied generally, then it’s definitely not to be applied controversially.
    What do you mean “needs to be applied completely”? Go right ahead and update 10,000 other articles to reflect the current consensus. But please don’t say we shouldn’t respect it here until you’re done.  —Michael Z. 20:20, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Responding tp ping by RadioactiveBoulevardier regarding Template_talk:Infobox_military_conflict#RfC_on_"supported_by"_being_used_with_the_belligerent_parameter. That RfC was worded Template:Infobox military conflict and related templates. The consensus is for this article to have its own infobox as a temporary expedient and regardless, it is captured by the RfC. And yes, it does raise the issue of continued inclusion of Belarus. To comment on the broader discussion here, the overwhelming response to the OP is that no new or novel arguments have been made that would negate the reasons given in the previous RfC and the consensus it represents. While it is appropriate to give them a hearing, the question has been asked and answered. It would appear that nothing would be accomplished by dragging this out further - ie closing the discussion, as indicated by RadioactiveBoulevardier, would be appropriate. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:31, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah you guys can close this I don't mind. I still disagree and think every conflict should list major supporters of each side in the infobox but I now better understand the current consensus and the reasons for it. Thank you all for your answers and patience. UkraineWarProposal (talk) 05:16, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep in mind that most of what's going on during a war is shrouded in secrecy for understandable reasons. Whatever is made public by a country is what they want their enemies to know, and is rarely everything. A solution is to wait until the end of the war, after the dust settles, then the victor gets to write history. Dhrm77 (talk) 12:32, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The right way to include this in infoboxes is to propose the addition of a separate top-level “Supporters” row at template talk:infobox military conflict.  —Michael Z. 14:25, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ukraine war liberated Staromaiorske

Ukraine war liberated Staromaiorske 182.224.89.144 (talk) 00:12, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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