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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Xan747 (talk | contribs) at 21:11, 11 September 2023 (→‎Actor and convicted rapist: Reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

"Convicted rapist" in first sentence?

For any celebrity convicted of a crime, Wikipedia is always quick to be edited so this is the first sentence in the person's bio. Seems kind of vindictive and against overall neutrality, no? The crime is also usually not the reason the person is famous, so I've always found it amateur for an encyclopedia to draw attention to this in the fist sentence. 216.205.235.186 (talk) 22:02, 31 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

See the page for R. Kelly page for example. It should absolutely be mentioned. conman33 (. . .talk) 23:51, 31 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
FWIW, that page just got updated to remove that mention from the lead sentence. I have doubts that it's due weight to mention it in the first sentence as well, though I have no issues with it being brought up in the lead. DonIago (talk) 01:02, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That was me. Xan747 (talk) 01:04, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
User:Conman33, there is a large difference between mentioning something, and presenting it as defining characteristic of someone. No-one is suggesting that the rape conviction not be mentioned. The issue is whether it should be brought up in the first line. Masterson was notable enough for an article many years before the rape issue was raised. I agree that it is not appropriate to mention in the first sentence. The conviction is prominently discussed in the article, and in user:Xan747's version of the lead, so we're not hiding it or downplaying it. Meters (talk) 03:32, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know the clean way to link a diff, but I did some cleanup on the lead section, and moved the felony conviction details to the final sentence of the first paragraph. Let's see how long the revert takes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Danny_Masterson&diff=prev&oldid=1157953715 Xan747 (talk) 01:37, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Xan747: The easiest way is to put square brackets around the diff's URL, like this [http://website.com/something.html] and it will translate into a citation-like number, like this: [1] . Grorp (talk) 02:30, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
thx Xan747 (talk) 02:33, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If R. Kelly's page can mention it then so can Danny's. Otherwise it sounds like a racist double standard to me.Jaydoggmarco (talk) 19:07, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What matters is the consensus on this page, not what has been done on one particular other page. Meters (talk) 19:20, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think @Jaydoggmarco has a point here but I agree with @Meters: the place to argue for changing the R. Kelly article is on the R. Kelly talk page. Xan747 ✈️ 🧑‍✈️ 19:52, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Harvey Weinstein's page says "convicted sex offender." Weinstein was convicted of rape. Can we agree on using that phrase? Aresef (talk) 19:22, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No. There is a large difference between Harvey Weinstein and this bio. Weinstein is very much noted because of the allegations and his conviction. That contributed significantly to the MeToo movement and we even have the Weinstein effect. Masterson not so much. Meters (talk) 19:28, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This same discussion has been going on over at Roman Polanski, with the examples of Weinstein and Epstein given in argument for including "convicted rapist" in the lede sentence. I agree that Masterson's case certainly doesn't rise to the level of those latter two. Polanski is arguably more notorious for his crime than Masterson, but IMO still not enough to warrant lede sentence labeling as a convicted sex offender. Xan747 ✈️ 🧑‍✈️ 20:04, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Defending the title of a convicted rapist. What a strange hill to want to die on. Blockheadwriter007 (talk) 04:49, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The defense is of Wikipedia standards. Grorp (talk) 06:51, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

When you seek to add labels such as "actor" or "rapist", wiki guidelines suggest you use words which describe what the person is known for. Masterson has been known as an "actor" for decades, yet only recently by certain celeb-watchers and scientology-watchers as a "rapist". Call him "actor", but using "rapist" doesn't fit with Wikipedia guidelines. See also WP:UNDUE. The lead paragraph is half about the rape conviction anyway, so using the word "rapist" is unnecessary and too POV-pushing. Grorp (talk) 19:30, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What "POV" is the word "rapist" pushing? glman (talk) 20:02, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Rapist" doesn't mean "serial rapist". And if we're talking that the first line should mention what he's known for, well, lately he's known for being charged and now convicted for rape.Gonzalo84 (talk) 21:21, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Glman: Excuse me for not also linking to WP:POVPUSH for your edification. I fixed it for future readers. Grorp (talk) 21:25, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, again though, I fail to see the connection. What POV is the inclusion of "rapist" or "sex offender" pushing? glman (talk) 21:43, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That entire thought process essentially prevents how people change over time.
Id easily argue it’s much more prominent that he’s a convicted fellon than an actor now. Blockheadwriter007 (talk) 20:34, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Given that it seems likely his case will be appealed, why the rush? There is WP:NODEADLINE; we can always update the text if/when further appeals are less likely. DonIago (talk) 20:55, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The sentencing for this mans crimes have made international news, he is NOW known for the crimes he's committed, I don't see why his bio should be treated any differently than other celebrities guilty of similar crimes. We can't have one rule for some and another rule for others? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Timaisey (talk • contribs) 08:56, 8 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sentencing

Danny Masterson was sentenced to life in prison with eligibility for parole after 30 years, NOT 30 years to life. Source: YouTube Growing Up in Scientology Aaron Smith-Levin 47.54.142.36 (talk) 20:54, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

YouTube is not a reliable source. AP News writes his sentence is 30 years to life, with eligibility for parole after 25 and a half years. NPR says the same thing. (https://apnews.com/article/danny-masterson-sentencing-rape-trial-fd7a10eda44d0e3ddde582d4c7053eb6, https://www.npr.org/2023/09/07/1198160934/actor-danny-masterson-sentenced-to-30-years-to-life-in-prison-for-rape).Jaguarnik (talk) 09:01, 8 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
 Done. After this thread's OP comment was posted, I clarified it on the main page using a reference from the California Department of Corrections website.[1] AP News doesn't explain how they came up with 25.5 years and it doesn't make any sense. Anyway, at least I attempted to explain what "30 years to life" generally means. Maybe needs tweaking, but I would consider this thread (an edit request) resolved. Grorp (talk) 09:23, 8 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Clarifying. I found a Deadline article which gives me a hint where AP News got the 25.5 years from. 85% of 30 years is 25.5. Deadline mentions: "eligibility for parole 85% of the way through his sentence". However, that might be true if the sentence was "30 years", but it isn't. It's life with possibility of parole at 30 years. Completely different. I think some of the news agencies got sloppy. Grorp (talk) 03:13, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Lifer Parole Process". California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation. Retrieved September 8, 2023.

Semi-protected edit request on 7 September 2023

Danny Masterson is a convicted rapist 2001:569:F800:1A00:21D9:5ACD:7EB1:2E41 (talk) 21:06, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There's an existing discussion #"Convicted rapist" in first sentence? Hyphenation Expert (talk) 21:23, 7 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Request for comment on use of "rapist", "sex offender" or "convicted" in lead paragraph and short description

Situation: The subject of this BLP, Danny Masterson, was convicted of rape several months ago, and sentenced just yesterday. Numerous editors have added "rapist" or "sex offender" or "convicted" to the first sentence of the lead paragraph and the short description, and other editors have removed those labels. The article has been rapidly fluctuating back and forth, and an earlier discussion on the talk page hasn't resolved the issue.

Question: Should any of the above terms be included, or not-included, in the lead paragraph, lead sentence, and/or the short description?

Relevant guidelines: WP:Manual of Style/Lead section, especially the sections Opening paragraph, First sentence, Biographies, and Biographies' first sentence.

09:08, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Survey

Oppose any of those in the lead sentence. Support describing the conviction and sentence later the lead paragraph/section (as it is now). The lead sentence should briefly describe a subject's original reason for notability and general arc of their life/career. It's not the place to describe their infamy, unless that's overwhelmingly the thing they were always known for (e.g., John Dillinger, whose criminal career is noted in the lead sentence, but not his charges, convictions, or prison time). Vadder (talk) 18:27, 8 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose in the lead sentence, Support elsewhere in the lead. Vadder said what I was thinking. DonIago (talk) 19:27, 8 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose lead sentence. Support lead paragraph. Soft Support short description. Per MOS:BIOFIRSTSENTENCE #5, the lead sentence should mention The main reason the person is notable, which in this case is his acting career: his article existed prior to any rape allegations being made public. The widespread sustained coverage of the rape allegations and convictions in multiple RS warrants emphasis in the first paragraph per MOS:LEADREL. WP:SHORTDES says, short descriptions are meant to distinguish an article from similarly-named articles in search results and should not attempt to [...] summarize the lead. Overall, I would read this guidance as saying it is not neccessary to append language such as "and convicted rapist", but not strictly prohibited either. I think the notoriety he's gained from his crimes warrants mention in the short description as I suggested, but only just. Xan747 ✈️ 🧑‍✈️ 21:14, 8 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose in lead sentence. Support in lead. Oppose in short description. The notoriety from the legal issues simply does not rise to the level to make this a defining characteristic. We have lengthy articles about other celebrities' legal issues without listing the legal issues as defining characteristics of the individuals, even in cases where the celebs are now probably better known for their legal issues than for anything else. Murder trial of O. J. Simpson, Bill Cosby sexual assault cases and Roman Polanski sexual abuse case are three examples. Meters (talk) 21:44, 8 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support In lead sentence. He is now more known for his crimes than he ever was as an actor. Death Editor 2 (talk) 03:08, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Citation needed. DonIago (talk) 03:30, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Every news organization is reporting on his prison sentence. He never got this much publicity for his acting career. Jaydoggmarco (talk) 06:31, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Just because his current legal issues are receiving more news coverage doesn't mean that's what he's now more known for. DonIago (talk) 16:27, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Jaydoggmarco (talk) 06:33, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose "any of those in the lead sentence. Support describing the conviction and sentence later the lead paragraph/section (as it is now)." per Vadder and others. The reason for his notability remains him having been a performer convicted of this crime. Most rapists get little media coverage and don't have WP articles - Masterson almost certainly has both because of his 'fall from grace'. The chronological is more informative. Pincrete (talk) 09:43, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support inclusion in the lede sentence, and further explanation later in the lede. I’m on mobile right now so can’t really confirm until I’m back at my computer, but I feel like sex crimes (and in fact felonies in general) almost always end up in the lede sentence? Will check for examples later, and retract if I’m wrong, but I don’t believe I am. Cpotisch (talk) 12:25, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Comment: Previous discussions on this page have raised Jeffrey Epstein and Harvey Weinstein as examples of articles that include "sex offender" in both the lead sentence and short description. These are not comparable to Masterson. Epstein is primarily notable for being a sex offender, and the lead and short descriptions both correctly mention that before his profession as a financier. Weinstein was initially known for being a film producer, but the sustained serial nature of his abuse all but eclipsed his prominent career; his lead and short description rank his profession over abuses, which I think is appropriate. R. Kelly has also been mentioned above as an argument for including sex allegations in the lead sentence and short description. On this I also disagree: Kelly is primarily notable for his music and it is his article that should be changed from its current form, not this one to conform to his. Xan747 ✈️ 🧑‍✈️ 21:14, 8 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

“Former Actor”

Hello. I added “former actor” earlier to the first sentence, but it got reverted by User:Doniago because he hasn’t formally announced a retirement from acting. I don’t find that necessary. He’s going to be imprisoned for a long time (if not the rest of his life), so how is he going to have another acting role realistically? Isn’t this WP:COMMONSENSE that he will never have a role and that his career is effectively over? That makes him by default a former actor and it’s no longer in his control at this point. This is not OR, it’s common sense given his sentencing. DrewieStewie (talk) 04:07, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As it's been indicated that Masterson's lawyers intend to appeal the case, at this time there's no proof that he will be imprisoned for long enough that he couldn't return to acting in the future. We can always add "former" if/when there are no longer any questions surrounding how long he will be in prison. DonIago (talk) 04:12, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've changed my mind on this issue. Masterson lost his last known role on The Ranch in 2018 because of the allegations, was subsequently dropped from his talent agency, and hasn't acted in anything since. That's 5 years ago. At this stage, maybe his career is over. Even if a petition to appeal was decided in his favor, it would take years for an appeal to take place. Grorp (talk) 04:29, 9 September 2023 (UTC) (Edited to clarify 'what' would take years.) Grorp (talk) 09:03, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
WP:NODEADLINE and WP:RECENTISM would seem applicable here; there's no reason why we have to rush to declare him a "former" actor. Robert Downey Jr. was imprisoned on more than one occasion, but I think we could all agree that his career ultimately recovered. Yes, very different circumstances here, but my point is just that I don't think we should rush to declare Masterson's career over before he's even had one appeal and AFAIK no sources have declared his career over. DonIago (talk) 06:12, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Difference is Downey Jr. wasn't doing life in prison for rape. This is completely different. Plus any appeal of his is likely to be denied. Jaydoggmarco (talk) 06:29, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly, this feels like it in actuality is “former” and the burden of proof lies on proving that his career isn’t over after all. Due to the 5 years since his last role and the subsequent lengthy prison sentence, it feels right now like it’s “former” until proven otherwise, which would be by a successful appeal, followed by finding Hollywood representation that would take him in, and finally landing a role. Its former unless all those conditions are somehow met, which as it currently stands is doubtful. DrewieStewie (talk) 07:20, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A plumber in prison is still a plumber - an imprisoned politician is still a politician - and an actor or musician who hasn't worked for 5 years or more years is often still described as an actor/musician. Being described by your profession (and main claim to notability), doesn't always mean you have made money from it recently. When most sources are using 'former' will be soon enough for us to do so IMO. Pincrete (talk) 09:52, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Pincrete.  • Bobsd •  (talk) 02:07, 10 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
While he is in all likelihood a “former actor”, I definitely agree with Pincrete that under typical WP style, we usually don’t add the word former to the lede. The career is more listed as a “claim to fame” then a descriptor of current activities. Cpotisch (talk) 12:21, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Our sources aren't calling him a "former actor", so that's really the end of it. We can stop right there. I found a small number of news articles that call him that, out of many thousands that have been published. None of them were top-tier sources. The rest call him an actor. a I even found a source from June (Yahoo News republishing Huffpost), after his conviction, that calls Masterson's wife a former actor, but calls Masterson an actor (not former). All of this is us wanting to classify him based on our knowledge and opinions, and that's fine, but it's not how this is supposed to work. He's established as an actor, so he's an actor. That will change when our sources change what they call him, or else it never will. Vadder (talk) 16:40, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with others, it is too soon to say former actor, we follow the sources. Isaidnoway (talk) 08:54, 10 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. He's notable for his profession as an actor. It's not up to Wikipedia to decide what to call him. Meters (talk) 04:06, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 9 September 2023

The very first line. It’s time to add/change it to “American convicted felon and actor.” He’s been convicted. It’s official. No reason this change hasn’t been made already. Blockheadwriter007 (talk) 20:49, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. This is already under discussion. Meters (talk) 21:05, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Stowing removed citations

Though these citations recently removed from the lead paragraph may have seemed excessive, I'm stowing them here just in case. I cut from this list the one which was actually used elsewhere in the article.[1][2][3][4][5] Grorp (talk) 00:38, 10 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Winton, Richard (June 17, 2020). "Actor Danny Masterson charged in three rape cases". Los Angeles Times. Archived from the original on November 6, 2020. Retrieved June 17, 2020.
  2. ^ Von Quednow, Cindy; Montoya, Kacey (June 17, 2020). "'That '70s Show' actor Danny Masterson charged with forcibly raping 3 women at his Hollywood Hills home". KTLA. Associated Press. Archived from the original on June 18, 2020. Retrieved June 17, 2020.
  3. ^ Levenson, Michael (December 1, 2022). "Judge Declares Mistrial in Danny Masterson Rape Case". The New York Times. Archived from the original on June 8, 2023. Retrieved June 10, 2023.
  4. ^ "Danny Masterson found guilty of two counts of rape in Los Angeles retrial". ABC7 Los Angeles. May 31, 2023. Archived from the original on June 1, 2023. Retrieved 2023-05-31.
  5. ^ "What led to Danny Masterson's rape retrial and what happens next". The Associated Press. May 31, 2023. Archived from the original on June 5, 2023. Retrieved June 14, 2023.

Semi-protected edit request on 10 September 2023

First line rewrite suggestion Daniel Peter Masterson (born March 13, 1976)[2] is a convicted rapist and American former actor. 2600:6C4A:7A7F:F2C0:5130:50EC:DF5D:B1DE (talk) 08:27, 10 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. This is already under discussion. Meters (talk) 08:29, 10 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Actor and convicted rapist

I think the opposition to mention that he is a "convicted rapist" in the first sentence is absurd. The sources that describe him as an "actor" only are by and large dated before the conviction, so they are not really decisive on this question. As a matter of decency, the crime simply must be mentioned in the first sentence, and there is no lack of sources for the fact. (Whether he is described as an "actor" or a "former actor" is less important to me; on the balance, I'd go with "actor" till sufficient recent sources clearly and explicitly state that his career is over.) Nø (talk) 20:03, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There's an open RfC you may wish to add this comment. Xan747 ✈️ 🧑‍✈️ 20:10, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks @Xan747; how do I do that? (I could edit the source for this entire talk page, but clearly, there should be an other way - I just don't see it.) Nø (talk) 21:06, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Nø, editing page source is one way. The other is to comment at the RfC as normal, then blank this section (with an edit summary explaining why). Xan747 ✈️ 🧑‍✈️ 21:11, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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