Talk:Hawaiian pizza

Politicians and celebs expressing their distaste for Hawaiian Pizza - just an attempt to appeal to the youth

If you read the article, you would come to the conclusion, that some remarks of the Icelandic president in 2017 and the following statements were the start of a public cultural debate about Hawaiian pizza. However, the disgust about putting pineapple on pizza (or defending it) was already a popular topic in internet culture back then, and those politicians clearly just jumped on the bandwagon. That should be made clear in the article. --2A02:1210:248C:1500:3022:84FF:D9D7:AC37 (talk) 15:07, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Information Literacy and Scholarly Discourse

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 15 August 2022 and 7 December 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): KMD2022, Shoelace01, TruLegend3 (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Mlclark1, Vmcostan, Theonly.tywhite, Tmjacks7, Ryandelorbe.

— Assignment last updated by Dsackey (talk) 18:13, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Breakdown of toppings

I would like to added a breakdown of the traditional toppings on Hawaiian pizza. Maybe adding a section on ideal cheese blends that would create the ultimate cheese traits and flavors. Like what blend of cheese create the best textures or what cheese blends pair well with the Hawaiian style pizza. Shoelace01 (talk) 20:28, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

"Cheese" Section proposal: (I have references on one of my sandboxes)

“The most common [cheeses used as a topping for pizzas] are Mozzarella, Provolone, Parmesan, and Romano”. Hawaiian pizzas are “often blended with mozzarella” because of the texture mozzarella cheese has once it's baked in the oven. Mozzarella and aged cheddar cheese blended on Hawaiian pizza creates “better texture and flavor characteristics” overall because this blend results in an “increased production of organic acids, and proteolytic”. Mozzarella specifically “has ideal melting and stretching properties” and “it has just enough moisture to brown and bubble without burning as the pizza bakes”. Adding "a water-soaking pretreatment step [to] low-fat and fat-free [mozzarella] cheese shreds” helps improve the characteristic of Hawaiian pizza pies. Mozzarella is “molded into spheres or ovals and stored in water to keep it moist” allowing the cheese to be processed, shipped, and sold without spoiling. This process allows pizza makers to prolong its shelf life, permitting them to store larger quantities of mozzarella.

Shoelace01 (talk) 15:25, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Origin of Hawaiian Pizza

The article begins claiming that it originated in Canada (with a whopping SIX citations, potentially violating WP:OVERCITE).

However, in the archives of the talk section, a two users noted that the original sources were uncited and lead to circular references, as other websites cited the original unsourced claim, and the article began citing those websites. Furthermore, additional research has come about casting doubt on the original claim.

This link shows many references to both Hawaiian Pizza, pineapple on pizza, and the combination of pineapple and pork products on pizza, well before the claimed creation in 1962. Furthermore, it would not be a stretch for Mr. Panopoulos to have claimed inventing Hawaiian Pizza as it would likely drive traffic to his restaurant. I would argue that this article be rewritten to mention the many instances of variations of Hawaiian Pizza before Mr. Panopoulos's claimed creation, and not speak so definitively on the origins of the style of pizza. 50.193.29.109 (talk) 23:19, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

The citations were an intentional choice by the editors. This article received many vandalisms and people simply didn't believe it was a Canadian dish given the name "Hawaiian". The amount of credible source here is appropriate.

Your link (source) is a blog - not a credible source as opposed to the ones we display on this article including BBC, CBC, the Guardian, and Globe and Mail. Your source's author also describes himself as "life-long resident of Massachusetts, a licensed attorney, and have been involved in food and wine writing for about 16 years" so he has the inherent incentive to claim the dish is not Canadian - similar to what you're suggesting. His background as a lawyer and simple "involvement in food and wine writing" proves he is not an expert or food historian. Your points about how the current citations are based off unoriginal website is false. Please read the articles. Also, "additional research has come casting doubt" - you did not provide any research and the reality is any credible source out there points to it being a Canadian dish. If anything, over the years, there are even more credible research/articles solidifying the dish being Canadian.

Your speculation that "Mr. Panopoulos" to claim to drive traffic to his restaurant is pure guess. That's your own opinion. Ultimately, the overwhelming credible research provided in this article proving this is a Canadian along with other editors consensus will prompt this article to stay the way it is. - Kazuha1029 (talk) 01:23, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

The first addition of the claim of Canadian creation to the article occurred here [1]. The first citation added to that claim was the Village Voice, who cited Wikipedia as the source of the claim, and by their own admission was unable to substantiate the claims outside of speaking to Mr. Panopoulos himself. In the next few citations added, in this version of the article, the National Post cites Wikipedia and Mr. Panopoulos, the Chatham Daily News cites Mr. Panopoulos alone, the Sun and [London Free Press which are both the same article cites Wikipedia and Mr. Panopoulos.

In the most recent version of the article, the BBC only cites Mr. Panopoulos here; TIME cites the BBC article , the CBC only cites Mr. Panopoulos; Business Insider cites the CBC article, Mr. Panopoulos, and Atlas Obscura which only cites Mr. Panopoulos; The Globe and Mail cites the CBC article, and even mentions the original unsourced claim from Wikipedia and the Village Voice article; and finally The Guardian cites the BBC and the CBC articles.

Many of the earliest citations referenced Wikipedia itself, violating WP:CIRCULAR. None of the articles cited in the current version of the article perform any research deeper than an interview of the person in question, violating WP:PRIMARY - there are no menus from back then, there are no news articles back then discussing the dish, there are no advertisements featuring the dish, et cetera. The blog post I linked includes references to instances of the term "Hawaiian pizza" and pineapple on pizza existing before the alleged creation in 1962. I have contacted the blog post writer requesting direct links to the references and will add to this talk page if I receive them.

To discount the blog writer as being non-credible due to his background is as to claim that you are biased for being a Canadian citizen, which I would not claim and do not believe. Regardless of his background, he has referenced many sources which would meet reliability standards on their own - please read his blog post. Further, to say that his incentives to claim the dish is not Canadian is on par the incentive that Mr. Panopoulos would have to claim to be the inventor of the dish is a false equivalency - one is performing research for a personal blog, and the other was laying claim to an internationally famous dish. 50.193.29.109 (talk) 18:43, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

It is important to remember that pineapple pizza does not equate Hawaiian pizza. There could be cases or food where they add pineapple to pie-like or pizzas, but it was not coined as "Hawaiian Pizza". For example, just because someone added gravy, cheese curds and meat to fries, does not make them the inventor of poutine. The Globe and Mail article actually explained it really well. Prior to Sam's invention and calling it "Hawaiian", and yes Wikipedia's citation (which resulted in Chatham Daily interviewing him, making his Hawaiian pizza famous), the term "Hawaiian Pizza" is unheard of. There are pizzerias in the States (or anywhere else) that adds pineapple to pizzas (maybe), but that is not the Hawaiian pizza where he added ham and as other sources pointed out, some Chinese cuisine elements.

The same Globe and Mail article explained: "Recipes published by U.S. newspapers in the late 1950s included pineapple pizzas, though these were to be served with almonds and cinnamon as dessert pie", this proves my point that these pineapple pizzas did not equate Hawaiian pizza. Therefore, you are free to create a new article called Pineapple Pizza if you like and credit it based on your own research. But Hawaiian Pizza is indeed invented and first credited to Sam and being a staple Canadian dish.

One thing I find problematic with the blog post you provided is the tone it is written in was opinionated (as are most of his articles with "Rant"), and other than himself, literally no one has ever been able to provide the articles he's citing. It is based on a lot of speculation. Here's my commentary on his sources:

1. Oregonian (OR), February 7, 1957: the restaurant owner seems to simply be adding as many countries as they can on the menu, and the recipe is totally different from the Hawaiian we know today (notably with papaya and pepper, we also don't know how they cook it). By the same logic, are you suggesting because he put "Swedish Pizza" on this menu, it automatically makes this restaurant the inventor of such a dish?
2. Honolulu Star-Bulletin, February 12, 1958: different recipe, and cannot find any evidence of this.
3. The Los Angeles Times (CA), March 12, 1958: no idea what the recipe is.
4. Courier-News (NJ), March 20, 1958: the author admitted he has no idea what this is.
5. Quad City Times (IA), September 24, 1958: Like I explained, just because something has pineapple in it doesn't mean it's Hawaiian pizza. Not to mention it is sweet not savory. Remember, today's Hawaiian's pizza is controversial precisely because of its sweet and savory mix (Sam's inspiration from Chinese food), this is so important and I feel like the fact the author just equates all pineapple pizza proves his lack of expertise in this subject matter.
6. Philadelphia Inquirer (PA), August 23, 1959: author admitted he doesn't know as he has no description.
7. Monroe News-Star (LA), October 7, 1959: author admitted this is a totally different recipe.
8. Boston Daily Record, February 17, 1961: I find the author's statement here to be extremely problematic. He doesn't know what this pizza look like, never tasted it, never seen it and never had the recipe. Just because of the name "Hawaiian" he boldly claims this predates the invention of Sam's Hawaiian pizza. The author doesn't even say if there's pineapple in it this time and he directly claims this is the Hawaiian pizza we know today?
9. St. Louis Post-Dispatch (MO), October 12, 1961: this time it is not even called Hawaiian, it was simply "Pineapple Cheese Pizza", again, this does not equate "Hawaiian Pizza". We also do not know the recipe.

Ultimately, you cannot deny that the above sources the blogger pointed out were trivial at best. None of these restaurants were "famous" for their Hawaiian pizza and their recipe were drastically different. None of these restaurants ever tried to debate they are the inventor of Hawaiian Pizza either. Sam P. invented the "Hawaiian pizza" we know today and it is cited by all major credible news outlets, especially with the interviews directly with the inventor like you said. None of the sources the blogger pointed out had any detailed interviews or research, it was simply mentions. It is also extremely unlikely that Sam would somehow eat/copy the "Hawaiian pizza" in the States and claim he invented Hawaiian (back then internet was not as widespread). Perhaps throughout the history of time, both Canada and USA had have many chefs make "pineapple pizza", but it is Sam P. who made this dish and its recipe we know today. Therefore, I do not think this article requires any revision.Kazuha1029 (talk) 01:36, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Nah it’s totally not from canada lmao 2600:1702:1B20:CB20:1C84:F351:E9E8:8781 (talk) 01:28, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Potential Citogenesis

Since its creation in 2004, Hawaiian Pizza was subject to edits inserting claims that the pizza was invented or created in a particular region or by a particular person. For example, it was invented in Edinburgh Scotland, in Germany, in Hawaii, at the University of Michigan, in Provo Utah, and by the chain Boston Pizza.

One such anonymous edit on July 15, 2009:

A Canadian restaurant owner named Sam Panopoulos claims to have first come up with the idea of placing pineapples and ham on a regular pizza in 1960 in Chatham, Ontario (citation required)

The edit was replaced by a competing claim on January 15, 2010, but reverted shortly thereafter.

On April 30, 2010, Sarah DiGregorio of The Village Voice, in an online article Do Hawaiians Eat Hawaiian Pizza? wrote the following:

But then I started to wonder where Hawaiian pizza came from in the first place. Wikipedia, that font of reliable information, says that in 1960, Sam Panopoulos, owner of the Family Circle Restaurant in Chatham, Ontario, was the first to make it.

DiGregorio made no claim that the Panopoulos story was true, only that it was written on Wikipedia. She contacted local reporter Bob Boughner of the Chatham Daily News. Boughner contacted Panopaulos himself, and wrote the following:

Aloha! Hawaiian pizza born in Chatham?

Chatham-Kent can claim many firsts -the latest is the creation of Hawaiian pizza...

An article on the history of Hawaiian pizza credits Panopoulos with introducing the dish to the world in 1960 at the Family Circle Restaurant in Chatham. Sarah DiGregorio, a staff writer with the Village Voice, a newspaper in New York, called The Chatham Daily News as part of her investigation into the origin of Hawaiian pizza. She said an article on Wikipedia credits Panopoulos with inventing the idea of putting pineapples and ham on pizza in 1960.

The only sources Boughner refers to are Wikipedia, the DiGregorio article about Wikipedia, and Panopoulos himself. The only source DiGregorio refers to is Wikipedia. Boughner's article was the basis for an additional interview with Panopoulos by the Toronto Sun, which stated:

According to Wikipedia, the origins of the pie are closer to the shores of Lake Erie than the Mediterranean or the Pacific. The online encyclopedia says Sam Panopoulos, 76, of London was the first to make the unlikely culinary fusion, at his Chatham restaurant way back in 1962.

These appear to be the original sources from which all further articles post-2010 refer back to, all of which refer ultimately to the anonymous Wikipedia edit that introduced the Sam Panopoulos story in July 2009

Years later in 2017 a social media fad and a tweet from the office of Justin Trudeau triggered a wave of articles which repeated verbatim the Wikipedia content, as well as additional interviews of Panopoulos.

Has any editor found any written or recorded evidence of "Sam Panopoulos invented Hawaiian Pizza" dating from before July 15, 2009?

Maybe a menu, an advertisement, a newspaper clipping, an interview, or a photograph? Lwneal (talk) 04:06, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

I think what you seek is difficult to find. We should remember that prior to Sam P being the widely accepted Hawaiian Pizza inventor, his restaurant is virtually unheard of, especially in a lesser known town of Chatham. The lack of ad, newspaper, interview, or photograph is totally normal for a restaurant of its size prior to its fame. There is no reason to do all these things (interview, taking photos...etc) until there is something worth reporting of - which is knowing Sam is the creator of Hawaiian Pizza, and that happened post-2009.

For example, we can also not find any evidence that the restaurant began in 1962 (no menu, advertisement, newspaper, interview, restaurant reviews), would you therefore doubt the restaurant for indeed opening in 1962, and claim it is only open after 2009? Kazuha1029 (talk) 01:07, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Given that "Hawaiian Pizza" has become so divisively popular in recent years, that some little shop in Chatham, ON, has been serving it since 1962 and was apparently completely unknown and undocumented for five decades until a sourceless Wikipedia edit in 2009 tends to favor the citogenesis and/or self-promotion scenario.

Actually regardless of whether the claim may some day prove valid, at the moment it still explicitly fails WP:CIRCULAR and WP:PRIMARY and should probably be explicitly noted that the claim has no supporting evidence. 64.121.126.15 (talk) 19:23, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 November 2023

please let me edit im Italian 135.180.29.34 (talk) 19:39, 7 November 2023 (UTC)