Talk:Biryani

Semi-protected edit request of 7 August 2022

Please change the duplicated phrase Biryani (/bɜːrˈjɑːni/) is a mixed rice dish Biryani (/bɜːrˈjɑːni/) is a mixed rice dish to Biryani (/bɜːrˈjɑːni/) is a mixed rice dish. 2601:647:5800:1A1F:74AC:AAF4:27FA:628B (talk) 19:06, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

 Done, thanks for the catch. PlanetJuice (talk • contribs) 19:29, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

British English

Hello,

I made a few edits to correct the spellings (from American English to British English), because, at the beginning of the Wikipedia article, there was a hidden template, "Use British English". My edit has been reverted by TheCherryPanda.

Now, I don't want to start edit warring, but I politely announce that I shall revert TheCherryPanda's edit.

Please Rectify, I am Being Here to Help You (talk) 09:22, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the catch; that's my bad. Although, in the future, I'm not sure that this is really something that needs to be announced on the talk page, as you can just leave a comment about your purpose when making the edit. TheCherryPanda (talk) 12:09, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

And thanks for the catch too! That is MY bad. From next time, I shall just make the remark in the edit summary. Thanks a lot. :)

Biriyani

Every one is having different opinion, based on the Archaeological findings, Kezhadi in Sivagangai district in Tamil Nadu found the rice seed is one of the oldest as per carbon dating. So, the Biriyani is possibly originated in Tamil Nadu. The valid point till today people of other parts of India or world the preferred crop is "Wheat" for their full time food. Where as the "Rice" is full time food for Tamils. So the only evidence is the Biriyani must be originated from Tamil Nadu where the first rice is cultivated as per the seed of Kezhadi excavation. 2001:8F8:1E55:C46:2BA:1543:39C0:32E5 (talk) 10:48, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

The existence of rice doesn't imply the existence of biryani. For example, there is no biryani in Vietnam. Has fossilized biryani been discovered in Tamil Nadu? Nope. So let's stop this food nationalism. MrDemeanour (talk) 16:06, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

Saffronisation of Biryani

Attempts to legitimise saffronised versions of biryani are not new. Biryani is, by definition, made from layered rice and meat. The rice acquires its flavour from the spices, aromatics, and the meat. Replacing the meat with vegetables and calling it biryani is as ridiculous as replacing the rice with wheat or noodles and calling it biryani. Sure, some people can do whatever they want in their personal kitchens, but that does not give it legitimacy. Nonwiktion (talk) 04:44, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

@Nonwiktion: The second pillar of Wikipedia is that the encyclopedia's content is driven by what reliable sources say, not by editors' personal experiences, beliefs, or opinions. We do not define biryani, or what variations are legitimate or ridiculous, we simply reflect the viewpoints of reliable sources, whether we agree with them or not. The Scroll.in source you refer to above says "now there are even vegetarian dishes ... being christened with that name, although traditionally biryanis have been made with meat and poultry."[1] Newspapers aren't the best sources about food. Neither, according to WikiProject Food and Drink, are many cookbooks. Sticking to reliable sources helps eliminate the "whatever they want in their personal kitchens" element. Some reliable sources that support the existence of a thing called "vegetable biryani" include:

• R. Macrae; Richard Kenneth Robinson; Michèle J. Sadler, eds. (1993). Encyclopaedia of Food Science, Food Technology, and Nutrition. Vol. 5. Academic Press. p. 3486. ISBN 9780122268557. Peas are an important ingredient in several tradition food products, such as ... chicken or mutton biryani, vegetable biryani, ...
• Hindi & Urdu (2nd rev. ed.). London: Rough Guides. 2001 [First published 1997]. p. 223. ISBN 9781858289229. sabej biryani: vegetable biryani
• Gatenby, L. A.; Donnelly, J.; Connell, R. (March 2011). "Cooking Communities: using multicultural after-school cooking clubs to enhance community cohesion". Nutrition Bulletin. 36 (1): 111. doi:10.1111/j.1467-3010.2010.01877.x. The most popular recipe, for both taste testing and cooking again at home, was the vegetable biryani.
• Jaworowska, Agnieszka; Blackham, Toni; Stevenson, Leonard; Davies, Ian G. (October 2012). "Determination of salt content in hot takeaway meals in the United Kingdom". Appetite. 59 (2): 519. doi:10.1016/j.appet.2012.06.018. Vegetable biryani

Biryani may, by many definitions, be rice and meat, but plainly for at least the past three decades there has been a significant viewpoint that there is such a thing as "vegetable biryani". Feel free to suggest language, if you can cite sources that support it, to say that it isn't traditional, isn't the dominant variety, is more common among the diaspora, or whatever, but do not continue to edit-war against the inclusion of the term in the article. Once editors are made aware that an edit is disputed, they are expected to hash out a consensus solution on the talk page with their colleagues, using a process such as the BOLD, revert, discuss cycle, rather than continuing to change the article back and forth, which is disruptive and can lead to being blocked from editing. --Worldbruce (talk) 13:56, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

@Worldbruce: Dear Worldbruce, thank you for the well-researched reply. My point was that the mention of an alleged vegetable biryani without any citations whatsoever breaches the second pillar, and hence I opened this Talk discussion. Such non-traditional variations can of course be added to a dedicated section with the citations you listed. There already exists a "similar dish" section with the accurate names of the "vegetable biryani" dishes. I believe this section can be expanded on to include vegetable, wheat, noodle biryani and other biryani-like dishes, but this time with citations. - Nonwiktion (talk) 14:18, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Recent 'origin' addition

Stewmuhn recent made this addition. Unfortunately, it is not supported by the cited sources:

• The first source, Slurrp, says this: Tracing the origins of kachchi biryani is a complex task, as there are various theories and historical accounts associated with its origin. It is widely believed that kachchi biryani originated in the Indian subcontinent, specifically in the region of Bengal. The dish is said to have been influenced by the culinary traditions of the Mughals, who ruled over large parts of the Indian subcontinent during the 16th and 17th centuries... ...According to one account, Kachchi Biryani was created during the reign of Nawab Wajid Ali Shah, the last Nawab of Awadh in present-day Uttar Pradesh, India... ...Another legend suggests that Kachchi Biryani was introduced in Bengal during the rule of Murshid Quli Khan, the first Nawab of Bengal, in the 18th century... ...While these historical accounts and legends offer insights into the origin of Kachchi Biryani, it's important to note that the exact details and historical evidence may vary. I think it's pretty clear that that source is saying that the origins of the dish are unclear, and it clearly cannot be used to support a bald assertion that it originated in Dhaka.
• The second source, from Roar Media, says this: This food was introduced by the Chaghtai people of Tajikistan and Uzbekistan. Residents of these winter-dominated regions prefer red meat, especially lamb. They learn to prepare a special meal using rice with red meat and various ingredients, such as butter, pepper, salt, cardamom and local spices such as nutmeg. And that's how kachchi biryani started... ...Later, the fame of this biryani spread in Dhaka city in a very short time through the cooks who came with the Mughal Subedars. (Machine translated) So, that also does not support the assertion that it originated in Dhaka.
• The third source, 10minuteschool, is a blog written by a student. It is not a reliable source, and should not be used to support any assertion.

I don't want to get into an edit war, so I have asked Stewmuhn to remove it themselves. Girth Summit _(blether) 12:54, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

"Local spices such as nutmeg": I thought nutmeg was native to certain South Sea islands; I'm incredulous that it is native to Tajikistan and Uzbekhistan. Perhaps it's the "machine translation" that is at fault; or perhaps Roar Media (which I have not previously heard of) is an unreliable source. Their "About Us" page indicates that their primary activity is marketing, and providing accurate information doesn't seem to number among their business objectives.

This article is the subject of constant nationalistic warring over the origins of Biryani, and I'm sick of this political food-fight.

MrDemeanour (talk) 15:05, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Indeed. I haven't formed any opinion about the reliability of 'Slurrp' or 'Roar media' - my point was that they don't support the content even if they were to be reliable. I've got no idea where this dish comes from - I just don't like seeing assertions being added using a citations do not support them. To me it always looks like someone is writing whatever the hell they like, and hoping that nobody will actually read the cited source to check it. Girth Summit _(blether) 17:45, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Earliest know Biryani recipes - needs to be included in history

"Zer Berian-i-Noor Mahali Nu’ Digar" a 17th century biryani recipe

Meat: 1Kg

Ghee (Rughan-i-Zard): 125 Grams

Rice: 1 Kg

Cinnamon: 2 Grams

Cloves: 2 Grams

Cardamoms: 2 Grams

Saffron: 1 Gram

Ginger: 20 Grams

Garlic: 250 Grams

Salt: 60 Grams

Coriander: 20 Grams

Black Cumin: 2.5 Grams

PROCEDURE: Cut the meat into pieces. Mix salt with ginger juice. Wait for a few minutes. Mix the garlic. Wait for a while. (In a pan) Fry onions in 100 grams of ghee. Put the (chopped) garlic on the onion. Keep adding water soaked in cumin until all the water dries up. Put the chunks of meat and add cinnamon, cloves, cardamoms and cumin.

(In a separate pan) Half-boil the rice. Mix a little rice with ghee and saffron. Wait for a while. Put (all) the rice under the meat. Pour (the remaining) ghee from above.

Seal the lid of the pan with wheat dough. For five minutes keep on full-blown flame. Move the (sealed) pan (upper) on the flame. Let it be on Dum for 45 minutes.

If the rice has to take the colour of saffron it must be fried.

— Biryani recipe from "Nuskha-i-Shahjahani" manuscript, a 17th century Mughal cookbook written during the reign of Shah Jahan.

Hello. These two texts are earliest known recipe books to mentioned Biryani. Please include them.

• Ain-i-Akbari (16th century text) - This book mentions "Zerd Birinj" (yellow rice). Zerd Birinj can be made into four dishes "sometimes added flesh with other seasonings" but does not give recipes for these other four. There is also reference to "dumpukht".

The great Mughal royal kitchen truly flourished under the Great Jalaluddin Akbar (1542 – 1605). Directly supervised by none other than the Badshah’s confidante and Prime Minister, Abul Fazal; and his chefs (who were hired from different parts of the world) working round the clock, it must have been in the 16th century one of the greatest laboratories of culinary experiments. Abul Fazal, in his Farsi tome Ain-i-Akbari, has left us with succinct descriptions of the royal kitchen along with recipes of the Badshah’s favourite dishes. In that list the first dish is titled zerd birinj, which literally means ‘yellow rice’. Ingredients include: rice, sugar candy, ghee, raisins, almonds, pistachio, salt, ginger, saffron and cinnamon. ‘These,’ informs Abul Fazal, ‘will make four ordinary dishes,’ and then goes on to add, ‘there is also sometimes added flesh with other seasonings.’ Can this be counted as a precursor to our modern biryani? Even with the added ‘flesh’, a very distant relative of biryani it could be, if at all. - However, Ain-i-Akbari does mention one dish, which in centuries to come would evolve into a very special tradition of cooking: dumpukht. Ain-i-Akbari doesn’t give us the cooking procedure, but just the ingredients: meat, oil, onion, pepper, cloves, cardamoms and salt. From other sources we get to know that the Dumpukht method of cooking involves sealing of the handi with wheat flour paste and setting it over slow fire for hours. In dumpukht cooking, there is no opportunity to open the handi to check how far the food had been cooked. It all depends on the experience of the chef.

• Nuskha-i-Shahjahani (17th century) - This text mentions five types of Biryani. 1. Zer Beriyan-i-Paneer (Biryani made with paneer), 2. Zer Beriyan-i-Noor Mahali (Biryani cooked with meat), 3. Zer Beriyan-i-Roomi (Roomi means Roman/Turkish Anatolia), 4. Zer Beriyan-i-Mahi (Fish biryani) and 5. Zer Berian-i-Noor Mahali Nu’ Digar ("Nu'Diger" means 'new variety', this is close to modern version, along with Noor Mahali).

There is documented evidence that a dish, with five distinct varieties, was being cooked in Shah Jahan’s imperial kitchen, which without an iota of doubt was the immediate precursor to today’s biryani. For this we have to turn the pages of an anonymous 17th century manuscript: "Nuskha-i-Shahjahani. This is the text from which Salma Husain has collated the recipes printed in ‘Nuskha-E-Shahjahan: Pulaos from the Royal Kitchen of Shah Jahan’ and many of those in her book ‘The Emperor’s Table’.

This significant text is a treasure trove of delicacies far beyond what Husain offers us. The ‘contents’ section of the text contains a whole chapter titled: Beriyan. The chapter has recipes of five varieties of a dish named Zer beriyan: Zer Beriyan-i-Paneer (gourmands with a natural urge to dismiss ‘vegetable biryani’ as an oxymoron, take careful note), Zer Beriyan-i-Noor Mahali (was this the delectable dish, that has been referred to in our legend? We can never be certain), Zer Beriyan-i-Roomi, Zer Beriyan-i-Mahi (once again, a revelation for many who have dismissed fish Biryani for long as an unwelcome recent interpolation of Bangladeshi chefs) and Zer Berian-i-Noor Mahali Nu’ Digar (this repetition of the Noor Mahali variety—Nu’ Digar meaning ‘new variety’—certainly entices me to conclude that there indeed may be a grain of truth in our legend).

Two of these recipes demand a special attention in the context of our discourse: the Noor Mahali and the Roomi. Make no mistake, although Roomi literally means Roman, in this context it certainly refers to a Turkish dish of a similar vein. Ever since the Byzantine Empire spread across vast areas of Anatolia, later part of the Turkish Empire; persons and things associated with the region has often been called ‘Roomi’. This Zer berian, therefore is ‘Roomi’ exactly in the same sense in which the great Sufi poet Mevlana Jalaluddin Muhammad is also known the world over as Rumi. Beriyan, as we have already seen, refers to a Persian tradition of cooking which involves frying. Therefore, we can safely conclude that the most immediate precursor to the legendary biryani was drawing heavily both from Turkic and Persian traditions, while being evolved to its final shape in royal Indian kitchens.

Besides the Roomi variety, Noor Mahali is the other Zer beriyan that, besides a host of other ingredients, uses our grand trio combination: meat, rice and ghee. It must also be noted that Nuskha-i-Shahjahani doesn’t specify the type of meat, but just mentions gosht, meat. That’s wonderful in one sense: it leaves space for chefs to experiment in keeping with her/ his social, religious and cultural tradition. A look at the Zer Berian-i-Noor Mahali proves how close we had moved towards the modern biryani version."